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Apple pushing Safari downloads on Windows users - Page 3

post #81 of 115
3/21/08 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They would be, but remember that Mac users are not used to this sort of underhanded marketing. This is common in Windows by MS and many common program developers. While this is sneaky, it's not outside what WIndows users are used to. But should be hold Apple to a different standard on Windows? Can you even get an IM client without having some browser toolbar trying to install itself?

How is it underhanded asking users who already have your software installed if they want to try out more software? It isn't like Apple is installing something without asking the user's permission. Moreover, you can shut off the autmotic software update notice if you want.

I do not know about you guys, but if I enjoy using free software from a company, I want to be told that the same company is making more free software I can try out. Ultimately, I can choose not to try it out.
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post #82 of 115
3/21/08 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post

If this is OK with some people, then every software maker out there should include invitations to download other products every time you update their software.

Fine by me provided I intstaled the original software and I have the ability to shut off updates.
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post #83 of 115
3/21/08 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

How is it underhanded asking users who already have your software installed if they want to try out more software? It isn't like Apple is installing something without asking the user's permission. Moreover, you can shut off the autmotic software update notice if you want.

I do not know about you guys, but if I enjoy using free software from a company, I want to be told that the same company is making more free software I can try out. Ultimately, I can choose not to try it out.

Because the box is checked by default. I'd wager they are betting most people don't read the update info, they just click through it as fast as possible. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a tool bar or some other app I didn't want because I failed to notice the pre-checked program piggybacking on another app I wanted.

As for turning it off, I want the updates to the software I want, but I don't want the developer to automatically assume I want everything else they produce. I can't turn off that "feature".
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post #84 of 115
3/21/08 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Because the box is checked by default. I'd wager they are betting most people don't read the update info, they just click through it as fast as possible. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a tool bar or some other app I didn't want because I failed to notice the pre-checked program piggybacking on another app I wanted.

As for turning it off, I want the updates to the software I want, but I don't want the developer to automatically assume I want everything else they produce. I can't turn off that "feature".

If it is working anything like Software Update on Mac, you just uncheck the software once. It will remain unchecked next time SU comes up.
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post #85 of 115
3/21/08 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

I hardly see how Apple is forcefully pushing Windows users to use Safari, or how it is doing, what some people here are suggesting, something secretive. Apple is merely asking Windows users who already have Apple software installed if they want to try out the new Safari. It isn't installing it without the user's permission.

That's the problem we have with some people, they prefer to make too much out of anything. Apple is not installing software on your computer, they are just asking you if you want to try out their software, they are not forcing you to try it. If you don't want it after reading what it is, then you cancel it and move on, what is so hard about that. What does this also have to do with Microsoft, Apple is not perfect, they are a business like the Microsoft of this world, they are not any better than Microsoft, there is nothing wrong with what they are doing but as usual some people would rather make a mountain out of a mole hill.
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post #86 of 115
3/21/08 at 11:54am
As a commenter on Gizmodo points out, if you had QT but not iTunes, the QT updater would auto-check iTunes for you.

Not a big deal, but certainly not something Mac users would accept.
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post #87 of 115
3/21/08 at 12:19pm
Solipism is right that most people are not going to notice the check box and will unintentionally download Safari with iTunes.

I agree it is sneaky and invasive. But from a business perspective its smart. Many people will discover Safari who never knew about it or would other wise have never tried it.
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post #88 of 115
3/21/08 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Solipism is right that most people are not going to notice the check box and will unintentionally download Safari with iTunes.

I agree it is sneaky and invasive. But from a business perspective its smart. Many people will discover Safari who never knew about it or would other wise have never tried it.

I want to go on record that while I think it is sneaky, I also don't think it's a big deal.
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post #89 of 115
3/21/08 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadJK View Post

I'd rather Apple dump Safari and just pre-package Camino with Mac OS X.

For that matter, they can dump iWork also and dedicate those development resources towards contributing to the OpenOffice Aqua project.

I'd prefer someone with an intelligent comment actual make one.

Oh yea. Apple should use Gecko over WebKit. Dense.
Oh yea. Apple should make Sun OpenOffice just work over iWorks. Even more dense.

I'll make this one simple: WebKit is being adopted, industry-wide. Gecko is becoming once again marginalized. Having WebKit on it's rear will force Gecko teams to fix it and work harder at it.

iWorks with ODF and OpenXML with an exposed API for 3rd party Add-ons will open up that market.
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post #90 of 115
3/21/08 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

I'll make this one simple: WebKit is being adopted, industry-wide. Gecko is becoming once again marginalized. Having WebKit on it's rear will force Gecko teams to fix it and work harder at it.

We'll see if that's true. I really don't see where Gecko is being marginalized except on handhelds. I'm still seeing 2x-3x Gecko vs Webkit usage on my web sitesites. I've not seen Firefox usage this high before.

The competition is good though. FF is already being significantly improved for 3.0.
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post #91 of 115
3/21/08 at 4:17pm
I don't have a problem with how Apple is marketing its browser (especially when Microsoft did even more with IE back when Netscape was all the rage), but is this really the right time for Safari to be so prominently pushed prime-time on Windows?

I use Safari on my Mac primarily because I find it to run exceptionally fast and I like its interface and feature set. But occasionally I have to boot up Firefox just because some pages still don't work properly in Safari. Among them: certain elements of Papa John's online ordering system. I do like my pizza, and it's annoying to have to switch browsers just to complete some orders.
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post #92 of 115
3/21/08 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

I'd prefer someone with an intelligent comment actual make one.

Oh yea. Apple should use Gecko over WebKit. Dense.
Oh yea. Apple should make Sun OpenOffice just work over iWorks. Even more dense.

I'll make this one simple: WebKit is being adopted, industry-wide. Gecko is becoming once again marginalized. Having WebKit on it's rear will force Gecko teams to fix it and work harder at it.

iWorks with ODF and OpenXML with an exposed API for 3rd party Add-ons will open up that market.

I agree with your thoughts on iWork. That's becoming a fine suite of apps. I think that as Numbers improves that will easily become the preferred productivity suite on the Mac.

I don't about FF(gecko) though. I'm quite impressed with version three for the Mac. It'll give Safari a real run for its money. Actually I like both and can't decide which one I prefer. Competition here is really benefitting users.

Oops I see Jeff said essentially the same thing.
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post #93 of 115
3/21/08 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't about FF(gecko) though. I'm quite impressed with version three for the Mac. It'll give Safari a real run for its money.

On the desktop, yes; on MIDs, no. MIDs are the fastest growing segment and WebKit is leagues above every other engine for handheld platforms.
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post #94 of 115
3/21/08 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

On the desktop, yes; on MIDs, no. MIDs are the fastest growing segment and WebKit is leagues above every other engine for handheld platforms.

Fair enough.

Lets revisit this topic in six months. I suspect it'll be a little more competitive on MIDS and handhelds than it is now.
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post #95 of 115
3/21/08 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Fair enough.

Lets revisit this topic in six months. I suspect it'll be a little more competitive on MIDS and handhelds than it is now.

I know Mozilla is working to get it ported, but all the articles I've read indicate that it's not going smoothly. It appears that Gecko isn't nearly as scalable as WebKit. But, as you say, 6 months for now we'll have plenty more info on this.
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post #96 of 115
3/21/08 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Because the box is checked by default. I'd wager they are betting most people don't read the update info, they just click through it as fast as possible. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a tool bar or some other app I didn't want because I failed to notice the pre-checked program piggybacking on another app I wanted.

As for turning it off, I want the updates to the software I want, but I don't want the developer to automatically assume I want everything else they produce. I can't turn off that "feature".


Sure the box is turned on by default. I suspect most computer users aren't as savvy as you and wouldn't know there was a software update feature unless it was turned on by default. It hardly is underhanded if users can fairly easily shut the feature off. In my mind, underhanded implies Apple is doing something secretive. Perhaps I am the minority, but I actually like being told that there is free software available from a company whose software I am already using.

As far as people not reading the update info, perhaps you are right. However, that is their own fault, not Apple's. Those probably are the same people who complain about getting a virus when they open up every attachment that comes their way without verifying the source. No pity from me. What, however, would be the point of Apple betting people will not read the print and unknowingly install the software? Clearly, installing the software isn't enough to get people to use it especially if they do not know it is there.

Apple typically is pretty good about not engaging in unsolicited communications. When you sign up for iTunes, it asks you if you want further communications from the company. Moreover, if you believe news stories, companies are dying to advertise on iTunes and Apple's website. Apple could make big bucks by selling ads, like many other companies do, but it doesn't. I appreciate that.
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post #97 of 115
3/21/08 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Because the box is checked by default. I'd wager they are betting most people don't read the update info, they just click through it as fast as possible. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a tool bar or some other app I didn't want because I failed to notice the pre-checked program piggybacking on another app I wanted.

As for turning it off, I want the updates to the software I want, but I don't want the developer to automatically assume I want everything else they produce. I can't turn off that "feature".

Any Windows user who routinely clicks through without looking at what they're doing probably won't have a working computer after a few days, so it's a non-issue.

Not to mention that even if someone does install Safari by mistake, it doesn't hurt anything - they just don't use Safari. Unlike Windows software which routinely deactivates competitive products - and which installs endless security holes that allow someone to take over your system.
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post #98 of 115
3/21/08 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by YakkoW View Post

I don't have a problem with how Apple is marketing its browser (especially when Microsoft did even more with IE back when Netscape was all the rage), but is this really the right time for Safari to be so prominently pushed prime-time on Windows?

I use Safari on my Mac primarily because I find it to run exceptionally fast and I like its interface and feature set. But occasionally I have to boot up Firefox just because some pages still don't work properly in Safari. Among them: certain elements of Papa John's online ordering system. I do like my pizza, and it's annoying to have to switch browsers just to complete some orders.

That's the entire point. The more people who Apple can get using Safari, the less often developers will choose to code only for IE.
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post #99 of 115
3/21/08 at 7:17pm
Go to Mail > Settings (gmail) > Shortcuts, Off.

It's not really a safari issue as it is google changing the way shortcut keys work, the google team acknowledged the problem. Turning off the nerdy shortcuts fixes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

The latest version of Safari does not let me write capitals in my Gmail without always jumping to the subject box.

It is pretty annoying as I have to write my messages in Pages and copy paste them to Gmail.

I haven't lost my mind just yet
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post #100 of 115
3/21/08 at 9:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twodales View Post

Pop up blocker is in the preferences section under security, turn it on and the ads are gone. I've been using Safari on my pos windows machine at work and at least I can avoid IE which is the biggest pile of dung that I have ever seen.

And sadly AppleInsider is one of those sites where you REALLY REALLY need a pop up blocker. I dare you to turn off pop-up blocking and browse this site...
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post #101 of 115
3/22/08 at 8:00am
[QUOTE=inkswamp;1231979]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdcat View Post


WTF are you talking about?

I use Windows and Macs 50/50 and nothing is consistent in Windows so Safari isn't going to stand out in some bizarre way, other than maybe looking better than 90% of the apps you use in Windows. On Windows, the interface is all a massive jumble, nothing even remotely close to the level of consistency you see in OS X applications (which is mostly encouraged in Apple's programming tools like Interface Builder which makes it easy for developers to comply with a standard look.) Safari will come with its own look and interface concepts, exactly like every other Windows app out there.

Of course windows programs are consistent. All window programs have a File, Edit, etc menu.
All window programs can be closed from the X in the upper right corner of the window.
The scroll bar for all window programs are the same.
I agree with the person who said Safari stands out. It does. There is no way a windows user wouldn't recognize Safari non-standard look and behavior.
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post #102 of 115
3/22/08 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Of course windows programs are consistent. All window programs have a File, Edit, etc menu.

Tell that to most Office 2007 apps, or Internet Explorer 7 on Vista (the XP version now shows the menu bar by default again).
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post #103 of 115
3/22/08 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Tell that to most Office 2007 apps, or Internet Explorer 7 on Vista (the XP version now shows the menu bar by default again).

As a Safari user on Mac, I have to honestly say that the Windows version is horrible. 30 seconds to load my home page---that about says it all.
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post #104 of 115
3/23/08 at 9:47am
1. The Author uses inflammatory words like "muscle in" as if Apple were forcing Safari on unsuspecting PC users as if MSFT did not use similar (and worse) tactics to make Explorer the #1 browser. Is he trying to make Apple a bad guy for this?

2. As much as I dislike most of MSFT software, you gotta admit that if Apple had achieved the number one slot in computing they would have used similar tactics. Gosh guys...it's only normal to use your advantage, if you have one, and to let others know what advantages you can offer them,

[QUOTE=AppleInsider;1231876]In an apparent bid to rapidly gain share of the online browser market dominated by rival Microsoft, Apple is leveraging its vast iTunes install base to recommend that Windows users also download and install the latest version of its Safari web browser.

It now appears that the Cupertino-based company aspires to use the advantage presented by the Software Update mechanism to muscle its way further up the browser charts at the expense Microsoft's Internet Explorer and other third-party Windows browsers.
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post #105 of 115
3/24/08 at 9:48am
We just finished reading an interesting article, which you can find here, about the automatically opted-in Safari install that PC users are getting with their iTunes updates. Admittedly, our initial reaction was to say They should be thankful! Now they dont have to use their mishmash of craptronic Intraweb Exploders and Mozzarella Firecrotchs and get a REAL browser. However, we thought about this prerogative and decided, rather, to issue an official shame on you, Apple, instead... (read the rest of the response here: http://www.applewatchdog.com/?p=60)
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post #106 of 115
3/24/08 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I assume you are kidding ... right?

As more Windows users try a Mac type app such as iTunes and now safari it makes them realize what an ugly interface they have suffered thus far.



I assume you are being sarcastic?
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post #107 of 115
3/24/08 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rextilleon View Post

As a Safari user on Mac, I have to honestly say that the Windows version is horrible. 30 seconds to load my home page---that about says it all.

Rextilleon FTW!!!!
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post #108 of 115
3/24/08 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

The only reason I use IE on parallels is to access my bank site, I can access it using safari and firefox but I cannot do anything other than view statements. I don't know why many websites are only designed to be best viewed on IE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by frawon View Post

I try to use Safari every time a new update pops up, but I keep switch back to IE after I get into some financial websites does not even support Safari.

I encourage you both to write to these sad, little web sites and tell them that people do use other web browsers besides IE. Many web sites are only designed to be "best viewed" with IE because (a) the company is lazy, (b) doesn't realize that greater than 20% of users prefer another browser besides IE and (c) no one has complained about it. It is most likely poor web site code, tailored to IE and not Safari, seeing how the latest WebKit nightly is at 95% when attempting to pass the Acid3 test.
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post #109 of 115
3/24/08 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by buldir View Post

seeing how the latest WebKit nightly is at 75% when attempting to pass the Acid3 test.

Maybe just a typo, but it's 95%
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post #110 of 115
3/24/08 at 11:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endymion View Post

Maybe just a typo, but it's 95%

Thanks for the correction, Endymion. The current version of Safari 3.1 actually scores 75/100. The latest WebKit nightly has achieved 95/100.
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post #111 of 115
3/26/08 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

But when it comes to install base, Safari is world's behind.

Safari is the world's behind? I know they are in last place, but isn't that a bit graphic?
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post #112 of 115
3/26/08 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by buldir View Post

Thanks for the correction, Endymion. The current version of Safari 3.1 actually scores 75/100. The latest WebKit nightly has achieved 95/100.

...and now 98/100... almost there.
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post #113 of 115
3/26/08 at 8:29pm
...and in no time flat, webkit is now at 100/100
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post #114 of 115
3/26/08 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endymion View Post

...and in no time flat, webkit is now at 100/100

Now we wait for the Opera aficionados to claim that Presto made it to 100/100 first, even though there was no public beta to verify that, only an snapshot from a Presto developer.

I wonder how fast Apple is going to release an update to Safari just to claim the title as the first non-beta browser to be Acid3 compliant, even if it means a more unstable version of Safari. I betting on the Apple developers getting the new Safari beta within a week and the "stable" release being pushed to users within 4 weeks.
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post #115 of 115
3/26/08 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I agree with your thoughts on iWork. That's becoming a fine suite of apps. I think that as Numbers improves that will easily become the preferred productivity suite on the Mac.

I don't about FF(gecko) though. I'm quite impressed with version three for the Mac. It'll give Safari a real run for its money. Actually I like both and can't decide which one I prefer. Competition here is really benefitting users.

Oops I see Jeff said essentially the same thing.

We aren't debating the same matter I see. You mention Firefox. I'm talking about WebKit.

WebKit is more than just what Safari is utilizing.

If you want to know more you could to an SVN checkout and see what's going on.
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