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Morgan Stanley: 40% of college students plan to buy Macs - Page 2

post #41 of 96
Mel, You and I may be the old farts in this crowd...

As far as "the spread" goes, the most expensive computer I have owned was a USED 1987 Mac SE with dual floppy drives running at a blistering 8MHz and some extra RAM and an Apple Laser printer. I paid 2500.00 for the SE and "stole" the laser printer for $3000.00
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post #42 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzDots View Post

Mel, You and I may be the old farts in this crowd...

As far as "the spread" goes, the most expensive computer I have owned was a USED 1987 Mac SE with dual floppy drives running at a blistering 8MHz and some extra RAM and an Apple Laser printer. I paid 2500.00 for the SE and "stole" the laser printer for $3000.00

I don't mind being called a fart, but please, not old.

I don't know what you needed your computer for, but I only spent that much because I was doing photo, graphics, publishing, and video work that I had to take home from my company (didn't always have the time there, things took soooo long), and my own personal clients, and occasional music mastering.

I wouldn't have spent that much if I couldn't have the accountant take it off my taxes, and amortize it.
post #43 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I know real life pretty well, I've lived 58 years of it, and computers have been a very big part of my professional career.

Just who do you think bought the 7+ million Macs last year? Who do you think is buying the 9 million or so this year?

I daresay that doesn't make you an expert on what 21 year olds are doing...

The answer to your question of who is buying these Macs is... my customers. I support home and small business users in all things computing. And I live and work in a very rich area of the country. And the people buying these Macs are rich, we're talking top 10% of the populous rich. I have many others who consider buying Macs, but decide not to when they see the price difference.
post #44 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

It seems that there is some confusion over what this survey says.
When you graduate you have FAR less justification for spending 2-3X the money on a laptop that you will use FAR less often than you did in college.

No one's talking about having to spend 2-3x the money for a laptop. More people now buying laptops than desktops is not a fad. It's a trend. A trend that will grow larger as laptops meet the needs of user in terms of CPU, battery life, weight, storage, price, etc..

A $1000.00 laptop now (whether PC or Mac) will blow the tops out of my $3000 450mhz G4 PowerMac (circa 2000). And this desktop can still do over 80% of what I need a desktop to do. Where as I (and many back then) purchased a more powerful desktop first and later a (less powerful) laptop for mobility. Many now are buying a powerful laptop as their primary computer and maybe a desktop later.

And these college grads already spent 3 to 4 years using a laptop. Whether they paid for that laptop or not is of no concern. And it doesn't matter how often they will use a computer now, compare to their college days. They will still need a computer. And it is only logical that they will be buying another laptop for their personal use when the one they have out grow it's usefulness.

And once they go the laptop route there is no longer a big difference in cost between a PC laptop vs Mac laptop. For sure not 2-3x of what they were using before. $1000.00 now will buy a laptop (whether PC or Mac) that is twice as fast and half the cost as the one they got for college 4 years ago. Most people will not consider spending anything less than this (on a new laptop) when the laptop is going to be their primary (and often) only computer.

It doesn't matter if they can't afford a new laptop right out of college (there's always the used route). It only matters that they will, most likely, eventually buy a Mac. Even if they have to wait little longer to save up for it. Even if they have to buy a cheap $400.00 PC to tied them over.

And even if not all of the 40% grads surveyed buy a Mac, it doesn't mean that less than 40% of future grads will be buying Macs'. Remember, a good percentage of the other 60% can also change their mind and buy a Mac instead of a PC. Apple owns over 40 to 80% of many sectors. So having 40% of future grads buying a Mac is not beyond belief. It's no where near the same as saying Apple will own 40% of the computer market in the next 4 years. Though that may also be not beyond belief, if this trend continues.
post #45 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

No one's talking about having to spend 2-3x the money for a laptop.

I think the issue lies with people comparing the cheapest PC notebook to the cheapest Apple notebook when they cry foul. Which isn't a logical way to compare systems, but obviously there are plenty of people that do it.

PS: Paragraphs would be helpful.
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post #46 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I daresay that doesn't make you an expert on what 21 year olds are doing...

The answer to your question of who is buying these Macs is... my customers. I support home and small business users in all things computing. And I live and work in a very rich area of the country. And the people buying these Macs are rich, we're talking top 10% of the populous rich. I have many others who consider buying Macs, but decide not to when they see the price difference.

I think I know about as much of what they're doing as you do. I ty very hard to keep in touch with younger people. A fair number of my friends have college age kids, and they also have friends. We're pretty friendly, and I do speak to them you know.

I also read as much as I can about what's going on. The professional publications talk about what is happening in colleges, both amongst the students, as well as the staffs. Mac use is rising in both areas.

Harvard, and many other universities are reporting these results,so don't be so amazed.

We're seeing things such as this happening all over.

http://www.bsu.edu/ucs/article/0,137...0-6958,00.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._campuses.html

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/arc...ws/18871.shtml
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/15070/

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/11/...ge.mac.switch/

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/11991

http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read/?id=ol...per=topstories

http://thedartmouth.com/2007/10/18/news/macs/

That's just a very few bits of info. I didn't bother with more for now.


I also see the younger crowd through my daughter, who is almost 17, and her friends, as well as doing work for the NYC educational system, as a technical advisor on computing platforms and networking (unpaid, of course).

So yes, I do think I'm keeping track of what's going on.

Your experience is odd, to say the least. It doesn't match up with anyone else's.
post #47 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think the issue lies with people comparing the cheapest PC notebook to the cheapest Apple notebook when they cry foul. Which isn't a logical way to compare systems, but obviously there are plenty of people that do it.

PS: Paragraphs would be helpful.

One of the articles I linked to said that the average price that college students pay for their computers is about $1,300. Not bargain priced at all.

Quote:
"US College students have spent an average of $1,290 on their computers, resulting in more than $22 billion spent by those currently in college. said Dan Coates, co-founder of SurveyU.

From our very own site:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._campuses.html
post #48 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

Welcome to the time of the Millennium Workers! They want near-constant feedback from supervisors, they want explicit work instructions, and they want to be rewarded publicly for their methodical and typically mediocre performance (just like on the soccer fields where as kids, everyone gets a trophy, and score is not kept).

Priceless sociological observation. Conforms to my experience. But, are you suggesting that Mac is the apropriate product for these lazy MWs?
post #49 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Funny, I know a couple of families that between them, over the years since the mid '80s, had 10 Apple computers/laptops. And they are middle class. So your point being?! \

Good for you and your "couple of families". My response was to the obnoxious reply that the other 60% who did not buy Apple are nuts. The reality is far more grim than that in economic terms in this country, my friend. I also should have included poor families as well.
My point being that the % could be more if there were cheaper laptops from Apple as the cost is currently twice as much. An Apple laptop cost $1,100 minimum , a Dell $500- you do the math.
And I am not saying they both have the same features or power. But both can surely use internet and perform Office - the basic student needs. It's really not that hard to comprehend.
post #50 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

One of the articles I linked to said that the average price that college students pay for their computers is about $1,300. Not bargain priced at all.



From our very own site:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._campuses.html

Anybody and everybody who has had a basic statistics course knows that averages can be totally misleading. You can have so many samples on one end of the spectrum offsetting the other extreme- giving you that average. Your point is useless.
post #51 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think the issue lies with people comparing the cheapest PC notebook to the cheapest Apple notebook when they cry foul. Which isn't a logical way to compare systems, but obviously there are plenty of people that do it.

An $1,100 laptop compared to a $500 laptop is not crying foul but simply reality to most working families faced with basic college needs in a computer. Only a price comparison is needed as most student's use is for the basics- internet , word processing, and spreadsheet.
post #52 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

An $1,100 laptop compared to a $500 laptop is not crying foul but simply reality to most working families faced with basic college needs in a computer. Only a price comparison is needed as most student's use is for the basics- internet , word processing, and spreadsheet.

Your enumeration lacked one important thing : showing off.
A few years ago it was the sneakers you had which determined your social status - now its the laptop. Clunky Dell or Lenovo => Born without money. MacBook Air : ubercool
Quite frankly : what do you think is fatsre to take notes with in a lecture :

a/ a laptop
b/ a notepad

Unless you know how to type 10 finger style blind the notepd should win this shoot-out rather quickly.
post #53 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think the issue lies with people comparing the cheapest PC notebook to the cheapest Apple notebook when they cry foul. Which isn't a logical way to compare systems, but obviously there are plenty of people that do it.

PS: Paragraphs would be helpful.

Exactly. And you can claim that it's not logical, but it's the way real people do it. Believe me, I've helped people with these purchasing decisions. As much as I like Macs, I can't in good faith tell my customer to buy one when the cheapest Mac they can get costs $700 more than the cheapest PC they can get. If the PC was a clunker (besides the fact that it is a PC) THEN I push them away from it. But a basic Dell, with dual processors, 1 GB of RAM and Windows XP will be every bit as fast to the end user as any Mac.

And believe it or not, enough people come from the PC world to buy a Mac and HATE it that I am very careful who I recommend get a Mac. The way I put it to them is that yes, if you are coming at it from a blank slate, the Mac may be more intuitive. But if you have experience with PCs, you are going to have problems using a Mac. So I have to weigh just how much my customer is willing to learn vs the inherent superiority of the Mac in things like spyware and viruses.

When my customer spends $1300 on a Mac and $500 on me helping them with it, only to return it after 2 weeks in total frustration, that looks bad for me, so I avoid those problems by being conservative. I've helped order, purchase and configure probably about 200 computers in the past two years, so I'm not just giving you a "I have a couple friends who have 10 Macs" or "my daughter has friends who like Macs". My sample is several hundred total strangers who tend to have plenty of money and high educations. I'll take my sample over those any day.
post #54 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Your experience is odd, to say the least. It doesn't match up with anyone else's.

You realize that your universe of people that you're comparing my experience to consists of an Apple fan message board, right? You can say 'anyone can come here' but surely you understand that 90% of the people here are fans. **And I'm a fan too**

My experience matches plenty of other people. They just don't happen to come here.

FWIW, my POV is this - I am a PC user, have no interest in using a Mac. I find them pretty annoying in a number of ways. I do have dozens of customers with Macs, so I am very comfortable using them and I service Macs for those people. Hell, I just helped my girlfriend buy a Macbook Air last week. She loves it, but she's very confused with a number of differences with the PC.

But I own Apple stock and have for a couple years now, since my customers started asking me in large numbers whether they should get a Mac. Seeing that groundswell of support, I bought the stock, but only recommended Macs to those who could afford them (a small subset of my clients, even though those clients pay me $75 and $90 an hour for computer help) AND (most critically) those who were willing to learn something new.

You'd be surprised how small that group is, even in the DC area where money flows around freely. That's why I know that the 40% number is terribly inflated. I fully believe that it is a desire type reading, but when cold reality sinks in, most people don't have $700 extra to spend on a computer. And no, for a college grad, the home laptop is not going to be the only PC they use. They will have to sit in front of a computer for 8-10 hours every day at work and will come home ready to let their eyes rest. Most people spend VERY little time on their computers at home, but at college they probably spend 50% of their waking hours using one.
post #55 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by freelander51 View Post

Your enumeration lacked one important thing : showing off.
A few years ago it was the sneakers you had which determined your social status - now its the laptop. Clunky Dell or Lenovo => Born without money. MacBook Air : ubercool
Quite frankly : what do you think is fatsre to take notes with in a lecture :

a/ a laptop
b/ a notepad

Unless you know how to type 10 finger style blind the notepd should win this shoot-out rather quickly.

There is a BIG difference between showing off with a $100 pair of sneakers and a $1,800 laptop. Why not drive to school in a big ol' Lexus while your at it too!
post #56 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't know what you needed your computer for, but I only spent that much because I was doing photo, graphics, publishing, and video work...

I wouldn't have spent that much if I couldn't have the accountant take it off my taxes, and amortize it.

That is exactly what I was doing at the time, minus the video.
I just traded in the LaserWriter about 4 years ago (actually it still worked I just got tired of "cable splicing") and the SE is in a box in my garage.
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post #57 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Anybody and everybody who has had a basic statistics course knows that averages can be totally misleading. You can have so many samples on one end of the spectrum offsetting the other extreme- giving you that average. Your point is useless.

No, actually, your point is useless. Your understanding of stats is poor. According to your read, a very few people bought computers for $10,000 to offset everyone else who spent $400 apiece.

Don't let facts get into the way of your beliefs.
post #58 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

You realize that your universe of people that you're comparing my experience to consists of an Apple fan message board, right? You can say 'anyone can come here' but surely you understand that 90% of the people here are fans. **And I'm a fan too**

You do realize that I'm NOT talking about the people here?

Quote:
My experience matches plenty of other people. They just don't happen to come here.

Very few people I know have ever heard of this site, or any of the rumors sites. Yet, everything I've read, and from people I've spoken to points to exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

Quote:
FWIW, my POV is this - I am a PC user, have no interest in using a Mac. I find them pretty annoying in a number of ways. I do have dozens of customers with Macs, so I am very comfortable using them and I service Macs for those people. Hell, I just helped my girlfriend buy a Macbook Air last week. She loves it, but she's very confused with a number of differences with the PC.

I have to tell you that there are far more annoying PC users out there as a percentage of the PC using population than annoying Mac users are as a percentage of the Mac using population.

You just don't recognize that fact.

The concept that someone from the PC world might be somewhat confused upon first using a Mac isn't startling. The same thing occurs in reverse. It's meaningless. A person has to have some degree of commitment when switching from something they know, to something new.

Quote:
But I own Apple stock and have for a couple years now, since my customers started asking me in large numbers whether they should get a Mac. Seeing that groundswell of support, I bought the stock, but only recommended Macs to those who could afford them (a small subset of my clients, even though those clients pay me $75 and $90 an hour for computer help) AND (most critically) those who were willing to learn something new.

I really don't understand what you're trying to point out. If those clients are willing to pay the fees you're charging, which are moderate, but not cheap, then the question of another $500 or $600 for a machine isn't out of the question. If they can't afford that, then they can't afford you either.

The last part agrees with what I said above. If someone is NOT willing to learn something new, they should stick with whatever they have had first, whether it's a PC or a Mac.

Quote:
You'd be surprised how small that group is, even in the DC area where money flows around freely. That's why I know that the 40% number is terribly inflated. I fully believe that it is a desire type reading, but when cold reality sinks in, most people don't have $700 extra to spend on a computer. And no, for a college grad, the home laptop is not going to be the only PC they use. They will have to sit in front of a computer for 8-10 hours every day at work and will come home ready to let their eyes rest. Most people spend VERY little time on their computers at home, but at college they probably spend 50% of their waking hours using one.

No, you don't *know* that number is inflated, you think it it is.

Perhaps you would bother to read the links I provided.
post #59 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

There is a BIG difference between showing off with a $100 pair of sneakers and a $1,800 laptop. Why not drive to school in a big ol' Lexus while your at it too!

$1,100 laptop.
post #60 of 96
Wow... Did you get a look at those Dell bars.... Scary for Dell.

I AM IQ78
post #61 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I have to tell you that there are far more annoying PC users out there as a percentage of the PC using population than annoying Mac users are as a percentage of the Mac using population.

You just don't recognize that fact.

I don't recognize that fact? Fact? I didn't see any facts above. Plus, I was not talking about users. I said I don't like using Macs because as a lifelong PC user, I find Macs annoying. Why are you talking about how annoying the users are? I don't think OS of choice has anything to do with how annoying a person is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, you don't *know* that number is inflated, you think it it is.

Perhaps you would bother to read the links I provided.

I'm sure the links you provided support what you are saying. All I'm saying is that there's no way that Apple will complete sales to the 40% of college users who said their next computer will be a Mac.

The reason I see no reason to read your links is because unless your links are made by oracles, they don't have the ability to contradict my point. And I'm glad you're convinced that you have a good feel on the pulse of the PC market with your experience, but it's meaningless to me because I know that my day to day experience tells me far more about what's actually happening than you can.

I don't come here hoping to talk to fans.
post #62 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I don't recognize that fact? Fact? I didn't see any facts above. Plus, I was not talking about users. I said I don't like using Macs because as a lifelong PC user, I find Macs annoying. Why are you talking about how annoying the users are? I don't think OS of choice has anything to do with how annoying a person is.

Sorry, I mistook your reference to Mac's as being annoying to you to mean that the users were annoying, which is what I'm so accustomed to hear from PC users that it overwhelmed the actual reference.

That's because you refuse to look at the links I provided you earlier. There are plenty of facts in those. If you want to ignore them, then you have no right to make the claims you do, which are just from your own personal experiences, at best.

Quote:
I'm sure the links you provided support what you are saying. All I'm saying is that there's no way that Apple will complete sales to the 40% of college users who said their next computer will be a Mac.

The reason I see no reason to read your links is because unless your links are made by oracles, they don't have the ability to contradict my point. And I'm glad you're convinced that you have a good feel on the pulse of the PC market with your experience, but it's meaningless to me because I know that my day to day experience tells me far more about what's actually happening than you can.

I don't come here hoping to talk to fans.

Again, you are very stubborn. You have no right to comment on the links wihthout reading them, as you have no idea where they are from, or what they say.

Most are from colleges, telling of the number of new Mac users they have, and some that are only allowing Mac. There are others as well. I can supply as many as you would want.

No, again, you,live in a very small universe, its hardly an example of what's happening in the larger one. And since you refuse to find out what is happening in that larger one, your statements don't count.

It's almost as though you're afraid to find out, because your argument will collapse.
post #63 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

$1,100 laptop.

Wrong again, my friend . Reread the post I responded to- he states MacBook Air which is $1,800.
post #64 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, actually, your point is useless. Your understanding of stats is poor. According to your read, a very few people bought computers for $10,000 to offset everyone else who spent $400 apiece.

Don't let facts get into the way of your beliefs.


Once again you are misinterpreting my read and distorting what I've said as usual.
I said stating an average is misleading. That can be for many reasons. I only stated one.

You definitely need a refresher course in statistics- you appear a bit rusty.
post #65 of 96
the iphone has a lot of people lusting (again) after apple stuff. Pretty much everyone i know wants an iphone and is just waiting for it to get cheaper. We've been wondering if they're going to cross an iphone with a macbook air and make a mini phone/computer/ipod/toaster.

Apple's marketshare has been growing very rapidly for the last few years and it's poised to keep doing so. Everyone I know who bought a computer in the last year got a mac (except 1).
post #66 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Wrong again, my friend . Reread the post I responded to- he states MacBook Air which is $1,800.

Doesn't matter. Most college students aren't going to buy the Air, as pleasant as that sounds. They mostly will be buying MacBooks, or sometimes, but more rarely, a MBP.
post #67 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Once again you are misinterpreting my read and distorting what I've said as usual.
I said stating an average is misleading. That can be for many reasons. I only stated one.

You definitely need a refresher course in statistics- you appear a bit rusty.

No, I'm not. An average doesn't mean that there is a great range between the most and the least. That's what you are assuming. But, it's not always true.

It's no more likely that many students are buying $3,000 machines than $400 machines. There will always be a few at the extremes of the normal curve, but most will be somewhere in the middle.
post #68 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

There is a BIG difference between showing off with a $100 pair of sneakers and a $1,800 laptop. Why not drive to school in a big ol' Lexus while your at it too!


Well first of all, it's $150.00 pair of Nike, M. Jordan, sneakers. And the big difference is not where you think it is.

When you spend over 3x the money (over the average sneakers), you got very little return of investment for your money. These expensive sneakers didn't make you run faster, jump higher or increased your foul shot percentage. They didn't last any longer, smell any better or increased your grade point average. So there's really no need to ever buy a pair of these. Unless you want to show off.

On the other hand a laptop that cost 3x (or more) than the cheapest available laptop has very real return of investment. It's faster, has more memory, bigger screen, dedicated graphic memory on a separate card, bigger HD, DVI out, HMDI out, Firewire, 801.11g or n, BlueTooth, longer battery life, comes with (and can run) full version of Vista (or OSX), the list goes on. There are real advantage to spending $1800 for a laptop instead of $500 for one. It's not showing off if you need some or all of these features. A $4000.00 Alienware laptop would be showing off.

If you need an ultralite notebook and already have a descent desktop, then $1800 is about what you would have to spend for one. Ultralites from Sony, Toshiba, Panasonics and Apple will run you from $1500.00 to $3000.00. An ultralite makes sense for many students whose backpack are already loaded with textbooks between classes. Who don't want a clunky laptop on their desk while take notes or enjoying a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Who wants to carry a laptop that will last all day without having to carry extra batteries or AC brick.

$1800 is also the average you would spend for a laptop that is going to replace your desktop. Many students live in small dorm rooms. So rather than have a desktop taking up space they opt for a laptop. They may have a 24" LCD (that they also use as a TV). Small stereo system. Along with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse in the dorm. So their laptop must be able to drive the 24" LCD. Have Bluetooth. Be able to play DVD movies on the 24" LCD while doing something else on the laptop screen. Stream music to the stereo system and still be able to use it for homework. Handle hi res photos from digital cameras and manage 10s of gigbites of MP3 music. Be able to do your homework while it's rendering and burning a DVD home movie. Not to mention games. Lots of games.

If you think that a $500.00 laptop with a single 1.6 mhz Celeron (or equivalent) processor, sharing 512mb of ram with an intergrated graphic card, 60 gig HD, loaded with Vista Home Edition will do the job, then you never really seen or used a $500.00 laptop. $500.00 laptops are for people that don't really need a laptop. But would like to own one just in case. People (like students) that rely on laptops for their everyday affairs will pay what they have to to get a reliable laptop that meets their needs. No one wants to lose their term paper (or other imporant info) because a cheap laptop crashed while trying to do two things at once (mulitasking). No one wants their laptop freezing up after just spending an hour working on something. No one wants to carry two extra batteries around just to make it through a day of classes. No one wants a laptop whose specs would consider "Solitaire" as graphic intensive.

There are real valid reasons for paying $1800 and up for a laptop. No one should be recommending a $500.00 laptop to anyone that must rely on that laptop as their main computer. A $500.00 desktop barely makes it 2 years. So how is a $500.00 laptop, that will be used everyday, going to make it through 4 years of college? It's better and wiser to invest in a $1000.00 (and up) laptop to begin with. Rather than 2 $500.00 laptop over the course of your schooling. And if a grad student is paying you for advise and you tell them that a $500.00 laptop is all they need, you aught to be ashame of yourself for stealing their money. They can get bad advise for free.
post #69 of 96
I see quite a few Macbooks, a few MBP, Dells, HPs, and a handful of Toshiba's, Sony's, and Lenovo's.

But of the new(er) laptops I see, they do seem to be more on the MB variety.

I personally like the new Dells, the XPS and Inspiron line, and the upcoming Latitude line is going to be very nice for business/enterprise.

I probably spent about $800 for my Toshiba last summer before college started up again; I wanted a MB, but partially got sick of waiting on Apple to dump the GMA 950, and then I also went and bought a Bowflex, which cut my computer budget down. I can't complain though, the Toshiba has been solid.

I wound up buying a Mini in December, with the crummy GMA 950, but then again, I do have 2 computers for basically what it would've cost for the MB at the time.
post #70 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, I'm not. An average doesn't mean that there is a great range between the most and the least. That's what you are assuming. But, it's not always true.

It's no more likely that many students are buying $3,000 machines than $400 machines. There will always be a few at the extremes of the normal curve, but most will be somewhere in the middle.

Teckstud has a point. The median is very likely lower than the mean. How much lower? beats me.
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post #71 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sorry, I mistook your reference to Mac's as being annoying to you to mean that the users were annoying, which is what I'm so accustomed to hear from PC users that it overwhelmed the actual reference.

That's because you refuse to look at the links I provided you earlier. There are plenty of facts in those. If you want to ignore them, then you have no right to make the claims you do, which are just from your own personal experiences, at best.



Again, you are very stubborn. You have no right to comment on the links wihthout reading them, as you have no idea where they are from, or what they say.

Most are from colleges, telling of the number of new Mac users they have, and some that are only allowing Mac. There are others as well. I can supply as many as you would want.

No, again, you,live in a very small universe, its hardly an example of what's happening in the larger one. And since you refuse to find out what is happening in that larger one, your statements don't count.

It's almost as though you're afraid to find out, because your argument will collapse.

It's all still just evidence from the little bubble world of colleges, where people spend crazy amounts of money on things that they never would if they had to justify the return. Which is why you can point to all the evidence in the world about how Macs will have 40% of some large market very soon but it will not be true. The 40% number is a WISH number, and that's great for Mac fans and fanatics. But it's not going to turn into 40% of any actual sales total. You can argue all you want, and you can convince yourself that you've proven yourself right, but reality will never match what you think you've proven.

And try to keep the ad hominem attacks to a minimum OK? It doesn't help your argument.
post #72 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Teckstud has a point. The median is very likely lower than the mean. How much lower? beats me.

They can also be the same. It depends on the data.
post #73 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

It's all still just evidence from the little bubble world of colleges, where people spend crazy amounts of money on things that they never would if they had to justify the return. Which is why you can point to all the evidence in the world about how Macs will have 40% of some large market very soon but it will not be true. The 40% number is a WISH number, and that's great for Mac fans and fanatics. But it's not going to turn into 40% of any actual sales total. You can argue all you want, and you can convince yourself that you've proven yourself right, but reality will never match what you think you've proven.

And try to keep the ad hominem attacks to a minimum OK? It doesn't help your argument.

Those weren't attacks they were observations.

I don't understand your reaction to the information. Now you say colleges are a bubble world. What does that mean? We are talking about college. So what happens there is all that is relevant.

The colleges that I gave reference to have reported these high numbers already. In a number of cases they aren't estimates. They are the current entering classes. Perhaps you haven't read the links after all? Why are you avoiding it?

And I can supply as much college data you would like. It will all be similar, except for accounting colleges, I suppose.

Show some evidence that disputes the evidence that's been coming out. At least I've provided some, you've provided none.
post #74 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They can also be the same. It depends on the data.


Well, obviously it depends on the data. But do you honestly think the median isn't going to be lower than the mean in the college-student computer market? I think that's a fairly safe assumption.

I think teckstuds only point is that using the median - rather than the mean - selling price is a superior data point to look at. I think that's absolutely true.
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post #75 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Well, obviously it depends on the data. But do you honestly think the median isn't going to be lower than the mean in the college-student computer market? I think that's a fairly safe assumption.

I think teckstuds only point is that using the median - rather than the mean - selling price is a superior data point to look at. I think that's absolutely true.

The median is nothing but that value on the data line at which half the data points are below it and half above it. It tells you nothing about how the values of the data points are distrubuted in each half.

E.G.- If I had 1001 data points and the median came in at $1000.00. This means that there are 500 data points that are $1000 and below. But it would make no difference if those 500 data points consisted of 490 $500 data points plus 10 $1000 data points. Or 490 $1000 data point and 10 $500 data points.

The median, along with the midpoint are way less meaningful than the mean (average). At least with the mean (average) it will take into account (weight in) the 490 $500 data points (from above example) and skew the value lower.
post #76 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

The median is nothing but that value on the data line at which half the data points are below it and half above it. It tells you nothing about how the values of the data points are distrubuted in each half.

E.G.- If I had 1001 data points and the median came in at $1000.00. This means that there are 500 data points that are $1000 and below. But it would make no difference if those 500 data points consisted of 490 $500 data points plus 10 $1000 data points. Or 490 $1000 data point and 10 $500 data points.

The median, along with the midpoint are way less meaningful than the mean (average). At least with the mean (average) it will take into account (weight in) the 490 $500 data points (from above example) and skew the value lower.

Yeah, I have an epi degree, so I'm perfectly aware of what the median is. Median and mean both have their advantages and disadvantages, and give you different information.

If you have a distribution that's skewed, the median gives you a more apropriateview of what the typical (i.e. 50th percentile) person is spending. Of course, if there's a peak at both ends and a valley in the middle, the median may not be to helpful.

Obviously, a lovely graph of the actual distribution is what will tell you the most.

I maintain that, in the context of the discussion that's been going on, the median is likely more informative. Having both would be best.
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post #77 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

The median is nothing but that value on the data line at which half the data points are below it and half above it. It tells you nothing about how the values of the data points are distrubuted in each half.

E.G.- If I had 1001 data points and the median came in at $1000.00. This means that there are 500 data points that are $1000 and below. But it would make no difference if those 500 data points consisted of 490 $500 data points plus 10 $1000 data points. Or 490 $1000 data point and 10 $500 data points.

The median, along with the midpoint are way less meaningful than the mean (average). At least with the mean (average) it will take into account (weight in) the 490 $500 data points (from above example) and skew the value lower.

Yeah, I have an epi degree, so I'm perfectly aware of what the median is. Median and mean both have their advantages and disadvantages, and give you different information.

If you have a distribution that's skewed, the median gives you a more appropriate view of what the typical (i.e. 50th percentile) person is spending. Of course, if there's a peak at both ends and a valley in the middle, the median may not be to helpful.

Obviously, a lovely graph of the actual distribution is what will tell you the most.

I maintain that, in the context of the discussion that's been going on, the median is likely more informative. Having both would be best.
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post #78 of 96
I am a recent college grad. I just switched to apple from PCs. I bought a Macbook Pro. I'll tell you guys exactly why I switched:

1: The IPod. I love it. It made me reconsider apple as a computer alternative. Before the IPod, I would never have considered apple when buying a computer.

2: The IPhone. Awesome! I don't have one yet, but I have played with other people's and it is amazing. These two products sealed the deal.

3: You can run Windows on the newer Macs. Makes switching to apple less of an inconvenience. I don't need to replace all of my software.

I recently got a good paying job and I needed a laptop. At this point I started researching apple computers. I was comparing two similar alternatives. A dell 15'' for $1450 and a Macbook Pro for $1999. I called apple and ended up getting a great deal. I got the previous generation Macbook Pro with the education discount for $1500. I love my Macbook Pro. It is an awesome laptop. I love the programs it comes with. Now that I have switched, I don't think I will ever go back.

That being said, if I did not get that deal from apple, I would have ended up with a Dell. I could not justify spending $500 more for the apple. (although I was also considering a refurbished Macbook Pro for $1700)

Here is another important point. My parents will never switch. They both have IPods and IPhones and they love them. But they are too invested in PC software. My mom would never consider being able to boot into Windows or Leopard as a benefit. She needs things to be simple and just work (hence the IPod and IPhone).
post #79 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Yeah, I have an epi degree, so I'm perfectly aware of what the median is. Median and mean both have their advantages and disadvantages, and give you different information.

If you have a distribution that's skewed, the median gives you a more appropriate view of what the typical (i.e. 50th percentile) person is spending. Of course, if there's a peak at both ends and a valley in the middle, the median may not be to helpful.

Obviously, a lovely graph of the actual distribution is what will tell you the most.

I maintain that, in the context of the discussion that's been going on, the median is likely more informative. Having both would be best.

What would be nice is if we knew the standard deviation. This would reveal how accurae the mean is. A small standard deviation, say about $250, would tell us that 68% of the data points was withn + and - $250 of the mean. And that the mean is truly reflective of the real average amount college students paid for a laptop. At this point the mean and median (and maybe also the midpoint) should be very close to each other.

A large standard deviation, say about $600, tells us that the mean is not so accurate as %68 of the data fell + and - $600 from the mean. That's a large range and most likely caused by a peak in the data at one or both end. It is at this point (like you stated) that the median may be a more revealing value (providing the peak is only at one end) of the true average amount paid for a laptop by college students.

I (we) can only assume that the data taker knew enough about statistic to take enough data so that a normal distribution curve (a Gaussian Bell) forms in the data. Otherwise the mean, median and midpoint may end up being a value where the data points are the least dense and thus are not very accurrate indicators of what college students are paying for laptops.
post #80 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Good for you and your "couple of families". My response was to the obnoxious reply that the other 60% who did not buy Apple are nuts. The reality is far more grim than that in economic terms in this country, my friend. I also should have included poor families as well.

I would think that a family who is truly poor can't afford a computer at all. And how many people who can afford to go to college (even with financial aid) are "poor"?

I'd argue that the vast majority of people who can afford to attend college could afford to spend a few hundred dollars more to get a mac laptop. And I'd bet that VERY many college students with PC notebooks have ones that cost at least as much as the base model macbook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

$1,100 laptop.

Actually, $999 laptop with the EDU discount...

And I notice that apple closed today over $143...what happened to those predictions of going below $100? I guess if students buy as this poll suggests, maybe the company isn't in such bad shape after all?
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