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PowerMac shipping time 10 days.Why?

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Before the expo it was 3 or 5 days...can´t remenber. Now it´s 10 days? Why? The old iMac ships in 1 to 3 days. The new Powerbook ships in 7 days.

Does anyone know?
post #2 of 29
everybody wants to buy them while they're not worth as much.

Makes sense to me.

As much sense as the imac design.

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post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Well, i see an update soon, no g5 but faster g4 (single, dual or even quad) processors, no ddr, but the new nvidia card as an option. no redesign of the case.
post #4 of 29
They probably decided that no one would buy them anymore anyway so they just build you a computer as needed.

They get an order in and then some monkey starts soldering together a motherboard and then puts all the stuff in the case. Then he finds a box somewhere and ships it to the proud new sap... er... owner of a 733 Mhz G4.
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post #5 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by rs:
<strong>Well, i see an update soon, no g5 but faster g4 (single, dual or even quad) processors, no ddr, but the new nvidia card as an option. no redesign of the case.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with the update! But why no G5? Do you have inside information, or is peer pressure having an affect? There's too much "no this, yes that" from people who only drink the bathwater here at AI. (rs - not to pick on you - it's rampant.)
-JD
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-JD
-- "If Apple wasn't so greedy, they would build G6's and give them away!"
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post #6 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by rs:
<strong>Well, i see an update soon, no g5 but faster g4 (single, dual or even quad) processors, no ddr, but the new nvidia card as an option. no redesign of the case.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I guess you think the new white keyboard and mouse match the QS case?
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post #7 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by jwdawso:
<strong>

I agree with the update! But why no G5? Do you have inside information, or is peer pressure having an affect? There's too much "no this, yes that" from people who only drink the bathwater here at AI. (rs - not to pick on you - it's rampant.)</strong><hr></blockquote>

The G5 is not ready. Get over it. Expect a G4 update first.

-S
post #8 of 29
Perhaps the G4 quantity was still high and they wanted to clear the channel so they could release a new product? after all, the G4 crystal clear savings promo ends at the end of Jan...then what? Back to normal? Apple has always run a promotion before intro'ing a new product...DAVE

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Dave Hagan ]</p>
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post #9 of 29
Then why wait 10 to ship them? Ship them today or in 2-3 days to get rid of them.
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post #10 of 29
Sorry KR...maybe that should be maybe they've run very low and the new product isn't ready yet, and is expected anytime soon...like I just said, usually Apple marks down products in the form of "Promos" immediately before intro'ing a new product.
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post #11 of 29
yeah people, we will see new stuff for Pros soon enough, everything is alright.
post #12 of 29
First off, when has apple ever shipped anything in less than seven days (perihperals aside). Tower, pb's etc. aren't made in quantities like pc's and more importantly the chips are fairly scarce. I have three apples now and each took more than a couple of weeks to receive. The og beige g3 took almost six weeks. I'm not sure how distribution works for apple but from what I can tell most of their products *cpu's) ship direct from korea.

I have to agree that g5's are inevitabley around the corner. Final cut's new aspirations almost demand it. Real time rendering without hardware is marginal at best even with a new 867mhz. chip. Faster ddr ram, bus speeds and better video cards are all needed to get apple where they want to go. ,replacing low end (under $25,000 us) broadcast and film editing stations. The media 100 people have known this for a couple of years now and have resigned to developing software instead of hardware that apple is replacing.

Further the apollo chip appears to be geared towards pb's and the new imac.(low power, low heat etc.) Although the appolo revision may fix theses problems remember that even mototola has stated that the g4 chip cannot support more than two chips on the motherboard and further it cannot extend too far beyond 1ghz.

Lastly, AMD and to a lesser extent intel are killing the motorola chips in terms of raw power. While mhz. are generally a poor measure of overall performance it is a measure we can use. Apple claims nearly twice the power from chips half the speed. 500mhz= 1ghz. (appx. for sure) So even with an 800 mhz that's still 30% slower. I can work much faster on a mac os system but that's cutting it awfully close to nullifying the time saved because of a freindly interface.

Apple has set high goals that it must meet. If it fails (and it won't) it will be another long recovery for apple that i don't think they can afford right now is no time to come up short when you've promised the mooon.
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post #13 of 29
Why are people saying things like 'Apollo wont work in a PM' and 'apollo chip appears to be geared towards pb's and the new imac?'

Is there any evidence about this or is it conjecture?

A high clocking G5 would be a great performance/marketing boost for Apple, but we have been hearing about the Apollo chips for a year now. Before yesterday, I never heard anyone mention that these cips would not go into the PM. Why has the tune changed?
post #14 of 29
[quote]First off, when has apple ever shipped anything in less than seven days (perihperals aside).<hr></blockquote>

About two weeks ago. You could get a Powerbook in 3 days and any of the Powermacs in 3 days. About a month ago the ship time for the Powermacs was about 1-2 days.

Click on a 14" iBook...ship time is 3 days.
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post #15 of 29
The tune has never changed, Apple and moto have been working on the g5 chip for almost three years now. Curious to note that all of my old bookmarks to any and all G5 info are invalid. I can't anything on that project anymore. Last I heard from moto is that they had embedded the altivec engine directly into the processor thus making it null and void to need altivec enhanced software (which most of it isn't)

As far as the apollo Goes it's not that it won't work in a tower but moto has stated that I is a low power consumtion, low heat chip. If it's not designed for compacts and all in one's then why bother? A speed gain would be much more to the point. Maybe to fill the demand apple would like to use the same chips in all of their machines but even pc's don't do that. So unless moto has made major enhancements that even they thought they couldn't then why continue using a g4 chip if it won't ever exceed 1.5 ghz and won't ever support more than two chips. Osx and darwin apps want those things and if pro's are buyin computer for a three year pitch why would you buy a machine that won't support new software capabilities in the future. The g4 is a great chip but I excpect it to be replaced simply because it will never do what Apple is gearing up to do within the next three years.
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post #16 of 29
Well said, Orb.

The G5 has been in development for a very long time. The Apollo is nothing more than a variant of the G4 design. It's designed for low power, low heat applications. In contrast, the G5 is built for raw speed, damn the power consumption and heat dissipation, full speed ahead!

It makes sense that Apple will need to be able to speed bump their portables to 1 GHz and slightly over, because it will be some time before a low power version of the G5 is developed. Remember how long it took to get the G4 into a powerbook?

So expect the laptops, even the powerbooks, to use the G4 for a long time. The Apollo is going to help the laptops keep up with the G5s, so that Apple doesn't have a 700 MHz Titanium selling next to a 1.6 GHz G5 powermac. Instead it will be more like a 1.2 GHz Titanium and a 1.6 GHz Powermac.
post #17 of 29
J Dawg,

Exactly, g3's were fimly nestled into the pb's for a long A** time. Apple still needs headroom for the imac and pb's to grow before the next chip (G5) would be small enough and cool enough to be in a pbk. or all in one. And we all know that ther isn't allot of that goin around with the g4.
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post #18 of 29
Anyone think that the mention of the G5 anywhere might mean that there is more going on behind the scenes than we know? It doesn't mean that the processor just disappeared. I firmly believe that there is a LOT of IBM involvement in the G5, just a lot of licensing from Mot, and this will all be laid out when the G5 is announced.

The core technologies for the G5 are already being used <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8540&nodeId=03M9430304504 67M98655" target="_blank">here.</a> This is basically a G5 but 32 bit and no AltiVec, but this shows that they have things shipping right now on a .13 micron process, RapidIO, and able to work with DDR ram.

Think about it: Apple has a small market share to begin with... now 3 of 4 Macs use G4's, not G3's. G4's are made by Mot, G3's made by IBM. What the hell incentive does IBM have right now to make dektop PowerPC's anymore? By giving it the G5 business, that's how.
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post #19 of 29
Bodhi, I never thought about IBm doing the chip and that's why Moto has been so hush hush. Don't I also could never figure out why IBM already had a G5 server chip. Why would 2 companies have the same chip names.

Moto could supply G4s for the entire remaning Apple line which is plenty of chips. And IBM could do just the G5 and/or the Sahara G3 for the iBook. Interesting.
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post #20 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>Bodhi, I never thought about IBm doing the chip and that's why Moto has been so hush hush. Don't I also could never figure out why IBM already had a G5 server chip. Why would 2 companies have the same chip names.

Moto could supply G4s for the entire remaning Apple line which is plenty of chips. And IBM could do just the G5 and/or the Sahara G3 for the iBook. Interesting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

IBM don't have a server chip called the G5, they have a mainframe system called G5 with nothing to do with PowerPC.

How can you extrapolate from a publication from Motorola about a future (the 8540 is not even sampling yet) chip of theirs, in their G5 range of PowerPC ISA chips, that IBM might be going to build something for Apple called the G5.

Michael
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post #21 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>Then why wait 10 to ship them? Ship them today or in 2-3 days to get rid of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

before the new iMac was released, the ship times for the iMac were 10 days, I don't remember for how long they were 10 days(from 2-3) but I'm pretty sure it was a week or two at most, if thats the case then new powermacs ARE right around the corner, ones that I would assume to be g5s however
especially considering that the apollo g4s(that all the rumor sites were CONVINCED would go in the new powermac) are for powerbooks and the iMac(makes sense) in the past month powerbooks got combo drives, iBooks got a bigger LCD, and a new iMac was released(was the iPod released as as well? or was that in november?) at any rate the only thing left, short brand new devices, is the powermac, the last powermac revision was I think 6 months ago, maybe a more, so in that sense it seems like a major thing for apple to make a revision in 6 months time(this is apple here)but a complete computer make-over that has been in the works for as long as the g4 has been around? seems like its possible.

oh well, I'll be happy with 300 mhz+ bus and DDR ram even if it was only a 1 ghz processor(though if it was 1.4-1.6 that would be awesome)
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post #22 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by mmicist:
<strong>

IBM don't have a server chip called the G5, they have a mainframe system called G5 with nothing to do with PowerPC.

How can you extrapolate from a publication from Motorola about a future (the 8540 is not even sampling yet) chip of theirs, in their G5 range of PowerPC ISA chips, that IBM might be going to build something for Apple called the G5.

Michael</strong><hr></blockquote>


Um, this is from IBM's site and sounds like a chip to me-
[quote] Compared with the G4 microprocessor, the S/390® G5 microprocessor contains many architectural and performance enhancements. The G6 microprocessor represents a technology performance improvement over G5, with system support for additional processors. <hr></blockquote>

As for your second question, I make no declarations of my knowledge dealing with technology, I am merely assuming based on what I have read. And I have read that Apple could buy the G5 tech or license it from Moto and have IBM fab it. That's how.
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post #23 of 29
Apple is able to ship new products very fast because they know that people, a certain number, WILL order the new products when they are announced. So they have a stockpile of the machines that are sent out the day they are ordered.

Apple has a limited number of assembly lines. Before a new product is announced, they have to assemble them, taking an assembly portion...maybe 50%? or more of their force.

So, if they are producing faster G4s in order to ship as many as possible when they are ready to announce them, then they have cut production of todays G4s, making it a bit harder to get all the products together - increasing the time.

So expect faster G4s. But don't expect them before the end of 10 days.

Andrew
post #24 of 29
I have no proof that the G5 will be made by IBM. I am just putting some pieces together and throwing in a little common sense.

Here is some text from another thread I started about this a while ago:

[quote]Here is where I am coming from on this. A little while back Motorola abruptly changed it's roadmap for the G5. The G5 changed to 8500. Now Mot releases a revised roadmap and the G5 contains no Alti-Vec core. What is going on here?

Here is what's going on here: My guess is that Apple frustrated with the past performance history of Mot's G4's did not want to take a hit with fab issues on the G5 and get stuck with G5's at one speed for a year. So as we have heard in many rumors Apple has taken on a more involved role in developing the G5. Mot's stock has been in the tank as well as their business so I am sure that Mot has either sold or licensed the "core" of the PowerPC G5 to Apple, my guess being licensed. Apple has taken that core and developed further on it along with the big boy's help...IBM. Together Apple & IBM have designed the G5 that will ge used in desktops. Motorola is clearly targeting their G5 for the embedded market only through their recent roadmap. There is no reason to keep AltiVec off of the G5 roadmap, unless there isn't any reason for it to be there. Now Apple moves to G4's along the consumer line which keeps Motorola happy but that means no more G3's....well with IBM's involvement in the G5 that keeps IBM happy.

So let's take a look at the situation at hand. On one hand we have Motorola execs saying that the Apollo is set to ship first Quarter 2002. Well that cannot be good for the G5 hopes. It's a smokescreen of sorts. What Motorola is saying is indeed the truth, the G5 is being developed by Apple & IBM not Mot so my guess is the Apollo G4 will make it's way into the consumer machines. And if any of you remember a story on MOSR a while back saying that the low power and low heat of the Apollo G4 is intended for the consumer machines and the Powerbook, not pro desktops.<hr></blockquote>

The thread can be found <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000149" target="_blank">here.</a>
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post #25 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>
Um, this is from IBM's site and sounds like a chip to me-

quote:

Compared with the G4 microprocessor, the S/390® G5 microprocessor contains many architectural and performance enhancements. The G6 microprocessor represents a technology performance improvement over G5, with system support for additional processors.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, in this context G4, G5, and G6 all refer to generations of processors used in the S390 mainframes, not the PowerPc chips of the same names. This is a problem that crops up because you use G4 to indicate the fourth generation, many architectures have that many or more.

I didn't say chip, in order to try and emphasise that this is not a server chip in the common use of the term, it is at the heart of a mainframe.

Michael
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post #26 of 29
remember not too long ago when moto fired about 9500 people (was it less?) well i remember reading something from macnn that said 4500 of them were from the powerpc department. How could the G5 upgrade to these rumors of 2ghz went moto is laying of thousands of employees from that department. if moto is getting these results then i doubt they would have fired that many people. I believe they sold most of the powerpc to apple and apple can't produce chips so they are giving the production to ibm.
post #27 of 29
Regarding Moto's layoff

Today (?) Moto also has some layoff in the executive level.

Doesn't sound good. But they deserve it.
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post #28 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by Keda:
<strong>Why are people saying things like 'Apollo wont work in a PM' and 'apollo chip appears to be geared towards pb's and the new imac?'

Is there any evidence about this or is it conjecture?

A high clocking G5 would be a great performance/marketing boost for Apple, but we have been hearing about the Apollo chips for a year now. Before yesterday, I never heard anyone mention that these cips would not go into the PM. Why has the tune changed?</strong><hr></blockquote>


When the G4 SOI process shrink (codenamed Apollo) was first mentioned about a year ago, it was earmarked on Moto & Apple documentation (i.e. roadmaps) as being used for consumer and portable machines. This does not mean it cannot be used in PowerMacs -- indeed, lowering power consumption means they can turn the clock rate up higher before the chip melts itself. People seem to be taking the initial statements of intended use to be statements of possible uses -- which is a fallacy.

If the G5 is not ready, Apple will introduce PowerMacs that use the fastest Apollos available in large quantities. Given that SOI is purported to deliver roughly a 20-30% performance improvement, we should see 1.1+ GHz G4 speeds. Obviously this will depend on yields. Furthermore, Motorola has stated that a process shrink will happen when their new fab is up to speed -- and this ought to boost clock rates further. Combined with a DDR motherboard and improved bus implementation, this should boost PowerMac performance significantly but it will still trail PC performance.

If the G5 is ready, it should put the PowerMac back on par (if not on top). While the clock rate might be in the same ballpark (1 - 1.6 GHz), the redesigned internals of a next-generation design ought to give a significant performance boost. The longer pipelines should also allow higher clockrates in the future.

There isn't any information out there that tells us when the G5 will arrive, its all just speculation. We know Apple can keep secrets (and does), and Moto came right out and said they would keep Apple's secrets if they were asked to. We also know the G5 has been under development for a couple of years now, and it was expected (rather optimistically) originally some time in 2000. That means they've had more than a year beyond what the optimists believed they needed, and Steve has been pushing hard for them to close the MHz gap. Rumours of fast prototype machines have been around for 6 months now, even ignoring the strangely detailed source that was sending to TheRegister & MOSR (and who has doubtless been fired!).

Engineering schedules slip. Yields can be bad. Fabs can have problems. Look at Intel & AMD -- they slip their schedules all the time, but it typically happens in a much more public way. Apple, Motorola, and IBM have always been much more private about their unreleased products (in part because of their 3-way relationship) and thus the release schedules have always been more vague.

Conclusion? The G5 is just around the corner, but that corner could be 1-12 months away. MWNY is probably the safest bet, but we can always hope. If we see Apollo PMs next month then we'll probably have to wait 6+ months for the G5, during which WIntel will continue to steadily pull ahead.
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post #29 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by howyoudoin:
<strong>remember not too long ago when moto fired about 9500 people (was it less?) well i remember reading something from macnn that said 4500 of them were from the powerpc department. How could the G5 upgrade to these rumors of 2ghz went moto is laying of thousands of employees from that department. if moto is getting these results then i doubt they would have fired that many people. I believe they sold most of the powerpc to apple and apple can't produce chips so they are giving the production to ibm.</strong><hr></blockquote>

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UPS didn't read the post good enough - SORRY

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Eagle ]</p>
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