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Expelled - Ben Stein's creationism movie

post #1 of 424
Thread Starter 
Hyperconservative author and "comedian" Ben Stein's new documentary film "Expelled" is playing to select audiences and promises wide release later in the year.

I found this hilarious bit of marketing for it.

There are some clips available for the film on the web (here).

Has anyone seen this film? It looks kind of funny to me.

Richard Dawkins's review
Review from the Orlando Sentinel
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post #2 of 424
Awesome video, and so sorry to hear that Ben Stein is insane - he seems so normal on the TV. 8)

Who are those scientists in the video? The white bearded guy is cool looking. One of the commentators on the video page seems to think that the video is pro-science and not a trailer for the movie after all, but the lyrics go by so fast I can't tell.
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post #3 of 424
... regardless of one's take on Expelled... it does raise some interesting questions. I have found that the academe has gone backward on academic freedom. That sacred right they fought so hard for in the late 60s is actively shunned because now they run things, and they are never wrong. Unless you are at Hillsdale or George Mason U, it can be very dangerous to indicate any conservative views on campus.
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post #4 of 424
Thread Starter 
e#s:

The "Dicky D" rap is only really funny to those who follow this stuff too much. (lyrics here)

The main rapper with the Flavor Flav clock is Richard Dawkins
The guy with the Flying Spaghetti Monster hat is PZ Myers
The "hot chick" in the bikini top is Eugenie Scott
The white bearded guy in the robe with the dollar sign is Daniel Dennett (his Beastie Boys-esque "YEEAAAAH!" at 1:57 is fucking hilarious)
The other white bearded guy with the suit is, of course, Darwin himself
The guy with the grill (and fish hat) is Sam Harris
The guy with the cigarette & "I Love Whisky" headband is Christopher Hitchens

I suspect it wasn't actually made by a creationist. It's too goddam funny.


Jubelum:

Quote:
I have found that the academe has gone backward on academic freedom.

Where and when did you find this?
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post #5 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

...


Where and when did you find this?

The speech codes don't help much.
post #6 of 424
Thread Starter 
What speech codes?
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post #7 of 424
The ones that are used to deny students free speech.
post #8 of 424
Thread Starter 
There are speech codes that deny students free speech?
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post #9 of 424
I'm bored already. You win.
post #10 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

I'm bored already. You win.

Why do you even bother to post if being challenged on your views bores you so much in thread after thread?
post #11 of 424
I look forward to watching this film.

I remember being banned myself.

Fellows
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post #12 of 424
Null.
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
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post #13 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Where and when did you find this?

Me personally... ten or so years ago in college. It was not always a good place to be a right-libertarian and RKBA supporter. And not as much among the students, rather, the PC police within the tenured faculty. My professors were more than glad to give me time off for activism in Austin during the legislative session, until it got around that it was right-leaning activism. Then it became a little more hostile.
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post #14 of 424
Educational institutions were built to eradicate ignorance, not tolerate it.
post #15 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post

Educational institutions were built to eradicate ignorance, not tolerate it.

Wow. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
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post #16 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

There are speech codes that deny students free speech?

Seems so. Ask the guy who put an "out of bounds" question to John Kerry ....

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #17 of 424
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post #18 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Why do you even bother to post if being challenged on your views bores you so much in thread after thread?

It's boring discussing a topic with someone that pretends to know nothing about it.
post #19 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

e#s:

The "Dicky D" rap is only really funny to those who follow this stuff too much. (lyrics here)

The main rapper with the Flavor Flav clock is Richard Dawkins
The guy with the Flying Spaghetti Monster hat is PZ Myers
The "hot chick" in the bikini top is Eugenie Scott
The white bearded guy in the robe with the dollar sign is Daniel Dennett (his Beastie Boys-esque "YEEAAAAH!" at 1:57 is fucking hilarious)
The other white bearded guy with the suit is, of course, Darwin himself
The guy with the grill (and fish hat) is Sam Harris
The guy with the cigarette & "I Love Whisky" headband is Christopher Hitchens

I suspect it wasn't actually made by a creationist. It's too goddam funny.


Jubelum:



Where and when did you find this?

Has the MSM picked up on this "science" video yet? I mean, in print like the NYT?

Can't seem to get to the bottom line as to the source, everywhere I go there seems to be confusion as to the facts behind this "viral" video.

A lot of people think it's from the Expelled krew, to promote the movie, do you think so?

There is a HD version floating around (720p), if you know where to find it.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #20 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Wow. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Why? That's a neutral statement. Unless you don't consider some liberal positions to be completely ignorant...
post #21 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

There are speech codes that deny students free speech?

There were University speech codes, and I think they did shut down speech. Although it seems to have died down in recent years, I'd bet there are places that still have them.
post #22 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post

Educational institutions were built to eradicate ignorance, not tolerate it.

I realize that point could be argued in mass but if that is the case why have not educational centers not eradicated the ignorance of the evolutionists in regard to their religious belief of creation without creator?

And why are some of these "educators" "scientists" hell bent against even considering that a creator could have an influence with the designs and intelligence we see in the creation?

Narrow minded ignorant arrogance..

Pure and simple. Only it is worse that these thugs play every trick in the book to silence / ban / expel those who present a differing view of the picture of creation.

Assholes..

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #23 of 424
Thread Starter 
Jubelum:

Quote:
Me personally... ten or so years ago in college. It was not always a good place to be a right-libertarian and RKBA supporter. And not as much among the students, rather, the PC police within the tenured faculty. My professors were more than glad to give me time off for activism in Austin during the legislative session, until it got around that it was right-leaning activism. Then it became a little more hostile.

So you didn't actually experience anything except people disagreeing with you? The horror!


mydo:

Quote:
It's boring discussing a topic with someone that pretends to know nothing about it.

I know nothing about it? How did you arrive at this conclusion?


Fellowship:

Quote:
I realize that point could be argued in mass but if that is the case why have not educational centers not eradicated the ignorance known as evolution?

Because it is not ignorance.

Quote:
And why are some of these "educators" "scientists" hell bent against even considering that a creator could have an influence with the designs and intelligence we see in the creation?

I am sure they have considered it. Just because you have dismissed something doesn’t mean you have not considered it.
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post #24 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post


Because it is not ignorance.

How do you support this opinion?

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #25 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post


I am sure they have considered it. Just because you have dismissed something doesn’t mean you have not considered it.

That is a fair statement.

I would add that for many of these thugs their dismissal of a creator is due to their personal dislike of how they view a creator they don't believe in.

Perhaps that creator goes against their sexual preferences and their notions of right and wrong.

Abortion is not murder etc.

It is a dislike of God which translates into a deception sold as "science" and "education" with many "Sean Hannity" type cheer leaders who champion the cause.

Nothing more.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #26 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Jubelum:
So you didn't actually experience anything except people disagreeing with you? The horror!

No, groverat... grades were at stake, and with those grades, chances on admission to the top-tier grad schools. In addition, forsaking an environment of respectful exchange of differing ideas, which is the spirit of liberal arts education, for an environment that is openly hostile.

It's a gross minimization to say it is just people disagreeing. Disagreement is fine and healthy. In an academic setting with professors willing to harm your academic future and opportunities, the effects are much more permanent.
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post #27 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

No, groverat... grades were at stake, and with those grades, chances on admission to the top-tier grad schools. In addition, forsaking an environment of respectful exchange of differing ideas, which is the spirit of liberal arts education, for an environment that is openly hostile.

It's a gross minimization to say it is just people disagreeing. Disagreement is fine and healthy. In an academic setting with professors willing to harm your academic future and opportunities, the effects are much more permanent.

And this is the point...

Fellows
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #28 of 424
Thread Starter 
Fellowship:

Quote:
How do you support this opinion?

The opinion that evolutionary theory is not "ignorance"? Quite easily, it is the uniform opinion of the scientific community. Behe himself, the king of neo-creationism, will openly say that natural selection via speciation is how species form, he admits that random mutation leads to gradual changes that natural selection acts upon.

Quote:
I would add that for many of these thugs their dismissal of a creator is due to their personal dislike of how they view a creator they don't believe in.

Thugs?
I think your argument is more emotional than anything else. There is no rational basis for calling these scientists "thugs". I don't think you can build a solid argument out of personal attacks.


Jubelum:

Were your grades affected by your ideological beliefs? Did professors intentionally score you lower than your peers because of your beliefs? Do you have any evidence of this?

In what ways, specifically, were your professors "openly hostile"?
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post #29 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Jubelum:

Were your grades affected by your ideological beliefs? Did professors intentionally score you lower than your peers because of your beliefs? Do you have any evidence of this?

In what ways, specifically, were your professors "openly hostile"?

Yes, on two occasions, I do believe that my grade was affected by the professor's intolerance of my beliefs.

How do you ever prove anything like this, especially in subjective grading environments with tenured professors? There are things that happen that are not empirically provable. If one of them had been stupid enough to actually make a comment regarding grading of conservatives, I would have had an attorney involved. Proving discrimination is a very hard thing, absent people's words and shared sentiment. Even the actions themselves can be explained away.

"Openly hostile" includes regular and flippant ridicule of world views that do not echo what the professor is teaching. In addition to the grading retribution, there is the hostility that a professor can create when they make someone "an example" of what happens when you openly confront ideological assertion being presented as pure, incontrovertible fact.
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post #30 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Fellowship:
Thugs?
I think your argument is more emotional than anything else. There is no rational basis for calling these scientists "thugs". I don't think you can build a solid argument out of personal attacks.

The basis for my using the term "thug" to describe some of these "scientists" and some of these "educators" is simply tethered to the fact which is very clear for all to see that there is a force directed against alternative ideas.

In Italy we see the mafia continue to make a mockery and a disaster of Italy with their thug like actions which have intimidated the weak and submissive Italian "government" into allowing conditions to deteriorate in areas such as dioxin in Italian cheese because of mafia run toxic waste dumps contaminating the environment.

In China the government rules by their script and dissent is not much tolerated not so differently from those who fling evolutionist propaganda in the face of every student enrolled in class today. While those who argue another vantage point are shown the door or worse.

Yes Grove I have a basis for my use of the term thug and it has nothing to do with emotion.

See Jub's post.

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #31 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

In addition to the grading retribution, there is the hostility that a professor can create when they make someone "an example" of what happens when you openly confront ideological assertion being presented as pure, incontrovertible fact.

If I were a professor of Natural Sciences, having made the study of the natural sciences my life's work, and I were faced by someone who kept insisting on the validity of some made-up nonsense without one single, solitary shred of incontrovertible evidence to support their position in the face of my huge mountain of solid, interdigitating facts from every scientific discipline taught in the university, I would find it difficult to control my contempt too.

Intelligent Design belongs in the Humanities Department. It doesn't belong in the Sciences Department. This is because it was made up to satisfy the demands of a myth. The study of The Amazing Things People Do and Think! belongs in Humanities. The study of The Amazing Things The Universe Does! belongs in Sciences.
post #32 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

"Openly hostile" includes regular and flippant ridicule of world views that do not echo what the professor is teaching. In addition to the grading retribution, there is the hostility that a professor can create when they make someone "an example" of what happens when you openly confront ideological assertion being presented as pure, incontrovertible fact.

Professors with vendettas against students, personal or political, are the extreme minority.

I've had a vocal, arch-conservative professor and he was probably one of the best professors I've had in college. Why? Well, he was brilliant for one. In his class, and in all others I've had, it was never about the correctness of a professor's own views (unless a social sciences class backed up by research) but about provoking discussion. So, while this guy was big on representational art and the classic works of western civilization, I wrote a paper about vaginas on a plate. Yes, vaginas on a plate. (Judy Chicago's "The Dinner Party"). He gave me an A+. He still doesn't think that's art and that my conclusions were cockeyed, but why should that matter?
post #33 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Professors with vendettas against students, personal or political, are the extreme minority.

That might, just might be somewhat true in an environment where the overwhelming majority of students fall into line with what they are being taught.

If virtually nobody upsets the apple cart then a professor would not have much of a large or even moderate chance of running into a personal and or political / worldview conflict with a student.

I guess it depends on the makeup of the student body. The degree to which your opinion is realized. As long as they think inside the box all is peaceful?

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #34 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

If I were a professor of Natural Sciences, having made the study of the natural sciences my life's work, and I were faced by someone who kept insisting on the validity of some made-up nonsense without one single, solitary shred of incontrovertible evidence to support their position in the face of my huge mountain of solid, interdigitating facts from every scientific discipline taught in the university, I would find it difficult to control my contempt too.

Intelligent Design belongs in the Humanities Department. It doesn't belong in the Sciences Department. This is because it was made up to satisfy the demands of a myth. The study of The Amazing Things People Do and Think! belongs in Humanities. The study of The Amazing Things The Universe Does! belongs in Sciences.

Hassan are you suggesting that there is no room for alternative ideas which may cover areas such as design in the realm of living sciences / biology.

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post #35 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Hassan are you suggesting that there is no room for alternative ideas which may cover areas such as design in the realm of living sciences / biology.

Fellows

No, not at all, Fellows. Alternative ideas are what progress in science is all about. It's just that those ideas (which can be controversial and even ridiculed, I admit) have to have some evidence to support them. Intelligent Design, which is another form of Christian creationism, does not.
post #36 of 424
Some comments about 'Expelled':

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2...zis-yes-nazis/

The movie intentionally misleads the audience by presenting arguments that have already proven to be incorrect. They never attempt to even define intelligent design, or evolution for that matter, or offer evidence that ID is even plausible. They even misled one of the scientists into an interview by deliberately misrepresenting themselves and what the film was about. It's an attack piece.

But we live in a free society. If you want to waste $8.50 on this film, go right ahead.
post #37 of 424
Thread Starter 
Jubelum:

Quote:
How do you ever prove anything like this, especially in subjective grading environments with tenured professors? There are things that happen that are not empirically provable. If one of them had been stupid enough to actually make a comment regarding grading of conservatives, I would have had an attorney involved. Proving discrimination is a very hard thing, absent people's words and shared sentiment. Even the actions themselves can be explained away.

Proving discrimination is a hard thing, and that's why accusations require a certain level of evidence. You are assuming discrimination without evidence.

Did you get a grade on something that was unfair or did your professors just make grades up out of nowhere?

Quote:
"Openly hostile" includes regular and flippant ridicule of world views that do not echo what the professor is teaching. In addition to the grading retribution, there is the hostility that a professor can create when they make someone "an example" of what happens when you openly confront ideological assertion being presented as pure, incontrovertible fact.

Like what? Public ridicule? Being disagreed with?

I never thought it was my professor's job to massage my ego. I was a grown-up in college, or at least aspiring to be one. And I certainly remember the hypersensitive students who cried when anyone disagreed with them in a less-than-apologetic way.

You are offering nothing specific and you want others to believe you were oppressed. If you were oppressed, you would have no poverty in specifics.


Fellowship:

Quote:
The basis for my using the term "thug" to describe some of these "scientists" and some of these "educators" is simply tethered to the fact which is very clear for all to see that there is a force directed against alternative ideas.

What "force" directed against alternative ideas?

Quote:
In Italy we see the mafia continue to make a mockery and a disaster of Italy with their thug like actions which have intimidated the weak and submissive Italian "government" into allowing conditions to deteriorate in areas such as dioxin in Italian cheese because of mafia run toxic waste dumps contaminating the environment.

The mafia has killers. Scientists do not.

Quote:
In China the government rules by their script and dissent is not much tolerated not so differently from those who fling evolutionist propaganda in the face of every student enrolled in class today. While those who argue another vantage point are shown the door or worse.

The Chinese government kills, beats, and imprisons people. Scientists do not.

Quote:
Yes Grove I have a basis for my use of the term thug and it has nothing to do with emotion.

See Jub's post.

Jubelum says he believes something negative happened to him but has no evidence for it. To compare that with the Italian mafia and the Chinese government is irrational.
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post #38 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post


I know nothing about it? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

I said you are pretending to know nothing about it.
post #39 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

That might, just might be somewhat true in an environment where the overwhelming majority of students fall into line with what they are being taught.

If virtually nobody upsets the apple cart then a professor would not have much of a large or even moderate chance of running into a personal and or political / worldview conflict with a student.

I guess it depends on the makeup of the student body. The degree to which your opinion is realized. As long as they think inside the box all is peaceful?

Fellows

You're saying professors commonly have vendettas against their students?

post #40 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

You're saying professors commonly have vendettas against their students?


I am?
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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