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Expelled - Ben Stein's creationism movie - Page 3

post #81 of 424
Never, never, never underestimate the power of The Zeitgeist.
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post #82 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Take a look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD6p8...eature=related

Needless to say

Sad..

Fellows

What's sad about it? Saying the Bible is probably written entirely by man, or the people who believe the Bible?

I knew a Lay Minister/Bible scholar who taught the the Bible was an allegory. Most sensible analysis of it I've ever seen.
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post #83 of 424
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Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Most sensible analysis of it I've ever seen.

Heathen.
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post #84 of 424
Jesus must roll his eye when he looks at the modern Christian. \
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post #85 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

So I think when people say creation isn't science, or isn't testable, and argue that religion and science are separate domains, that sounds right to people who aren't religious, but I don't think it's plausible at all to most religious people.


Maybe so, but I have spent my entire life around people who are religious and have no trouble reconciling these concepts. My family and co-workers virtually all fall into this category. Perhaps that is my skewed perspective, I don't know.

I linked to this in earlier thread (an Obama thread I believe) but certainly the church I've been associated with my entire life doesn't have any problem with the concept.

http://www.ucc.org/not-mutually-excl...ral-letter.pdf
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post #86 of 424
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Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I can tell you for sure that there are certain taboo subjects - saying that black people have lower average IQ than white people, or even siding *at all* with nature on the nurture vs nature bit, will most likely get you booted from your university job.

As someone that works with academics in this realm, I strongly disagree that this is the case. There is currently very broad recognition that the whole nature v. nurture thing is a mostly false debate, and are in most cases highly intertwined with one another.

I would however, acknowledge that the issue of race and genetics can be a very tricky area, and the dialog is not always as open as it should be. Part of that does however stem from the fact the race is actually very difficult to systematically and accurately categorize, depending on what perspective you're taking the question from.
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post #87 of 424
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Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

Jesus must roll his eye when he looks at the modern Christian. \

He must be turning in his grave.

post #88 of 424
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Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

He must be turning in his grave.

<groan... no, really... an audible... groan>

Oh, and.... HERESY! HERESY I tell you!
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post #89 of 424
post #90 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

... regardless of one's take on Expelled... it does raise some interesting questions. I have found that it can be very dangerous to indicate any conservative views on campus.


Bah..
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post #91 of 424
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Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

As someone that works with academics in this realm, I strongly disagree that this is the case. There is currently very broad recognition that the whole nature v. nurture thing is a mostly false debate, and are in most cases highly intertwined with one another.

I would however, acknowledge that the issue of race and genetics can be a very tricky area, and the dialog is not always as open as it should be. Part of that does however stem from the fact the race is actually very difficult to systematically and accurately categorize, depending on what perspective you're taking the question from.

How do you explain the aftermath of the James Watson comments? Also (and "the blank slate" goes into this quite a bit) the reaction to "The Bell Curve". It wasn't just the media out to get those people, the scientific community jumped on them as well.
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post #92 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post


But if you think there is no opposition / force (fill in what ever word you like) to the ideas of those who study and discuss ID in the academic world you are seeing things in a different light than I see things.

How many university professors are fighting to teach ID in their biology classes and being refused by their university/colleagues? Any? I know there was that one guy who wrote all that stuff about irreducible complexity, but he was an English PhD.
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post #93 of 424
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Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Bah..

Ever tried it?
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post #94 of 424
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Originally Posted by groverat View Post

I found this hilarious bit of marketing for it.

Holy shit. I've been on the interwebs for some time now, and that is by far the funniest thing I've seen in at least 3 coon ages.
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post #95 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Ever tried it?

Sure. I do it all the time. But dangerous? No. Hardly. Conservatives are not beaten regularly on college campuses for expressing their views and to claim so is utterly hyperbolic. I hear this all the timethat conservative students are harassed and punished for expressing conservative views. There's never any evidence for it (as Groverat pointed out) and, in my experience, it's always from people who a) didn't do what they were supposed to do and instead went off one some political rant rather than do the damned assignment or b) are looking for someone to blame for their bad grades. I work in the last bastion of leftism in the university, and I have taught in two of the reddest states in the union. We have conservatives on our faculty. We have liberals. We have feminists. We have people whose racial theories make my skin crawl.

It is amazing to me how quickly the conservatives flipped right back into the rhetoric of the oppressed.
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post #96 of 424
Thread Starter 
And we still have absolutely zero specifics about how conservatives are oppressed on campus. We have an accusation that grades were lowered, but nothing that actually shows it, no one can even point to a single assignment that received an unfair grade. Hell, I can do that in a class taught by Robert Jensen, a professor with whom I had a great relationship.

And then ideological hostility... welcome to fucking college. I couldn't stroll through the West Mall without having someone shouting something at someone else about Freeing Tibetan whales or ending the infant holocaust. I don't remember thinking or expecting professors and classmates to treat all ideas with equal respect. Some ideas are fucking stupid and deserve scorn. If someone walked up to you and said that Jesus Christ married his own mother and that the first Catholic pope was their inbred child would you nod your head considerately and say, "I might not think you're right, but by god I respect the depth of your argumentation."? No, you dismiss it in a flippant way and move on to Big Boy Talk. And later, while drunk, you laugh about it while you tell your friends.

If you're going to tell an expert that their understanding of their specific subject matter is wrong you should have a reason besides, "I mean, like, you should be open minded... you know?"

So we have nothing to show actual repression of thought and speech; nothing to show actual oppression of right-wing ideas, but we still call them "thugs".

Quote:
It is amazing to me how quickly the conservatives flipped right back into the rhetoric of the oppressed.

What else do they have (on this issue)?

A false sense of victimization, of martyrdom, is all they have. They don't have evidence, they don't have a verifiable methodology, so they look into their religion and see the justification of public, sanctimonious martyrdom. And if they can't find someone to martyr them, they squirt ketchup on their shirt and pretend that they've been stabbed. ("OH! I think a professor might have said something insulting to me when I said that the earth was only 6000 years old and the Grand Canyon was formed by noah's flood. THE OPPRESSION! I'm basically like a Nazi Holocaust victim!")
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post #97 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

How do you explain the aftermath of the James Watson comments? Also (and "the blank slate" goes into this quite a bit) the reaction to "The Bell Curve". It wasn't just the media out to get those people, the scientific community jumped on them as well.

It didn't the media play, but the Watson commentary did generate a lot of well-reasoned discussion inside the scientific community about race and genetics. You just didn't hear about it.

His comments got skewered because of their context. Suggesting an entire continent is screwed because of perceived genetic inferiority is, without any substantial evidence to back himself up, pretty far afield.
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post #98 of 424
The Republican student organization had a table in our student union a couple days ago. It was amazing, there were lesbians and enviro-fascists and differently-abled students and darwinists all ganging up on them and chanting and denying them their rights. They are the truly oppressed today.
post #99 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Sure. I do it all the time. But dangerous? No. Hardly. Conservatives are not beaten regularly on college campuses for expressing their views and to claim so is utterly hyperbolic. ...

It is amazing to me how quickly the conservatives flipped right back into the rhetoric of the oppressed.

I was not speaking of physical violence. "Rhetoric of the oppressed"? Surely you are smarter than that, midwinter. You're over-playing your response... there ARE professors, which I have said are rare, that DO create hostile environments for people that do not agree with them.

At least we've found one minority that is not worth defending or listening to... the known-quantity conservative in a liberal university classroom.
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post #100 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

And we still have absolutely zero specifics about how conservatives are oppressed on campus. We have an accusation that grades were lowered, but nothing that actually shows it, no one can even point to a single assignment that received an unfair grade. Hell, I can do that in a class taught by Robert Jensen, a professor with whom I had a great relationship.

How, groverat, do you propose that it CAN be proved, especially in the subjective world of Political Science and Sociology?

Quote:
If you're going to tell an expert that their understanding of their specific subject matter is wrong you should have a reason besides, "I mean, like, you should be open minded... you know?"

I was active in Social Sciences... and there are usually two-or more- sides and world views concerning almost any issue. I'm not proposing that professors BELIEVE the other worldview, only that they impartially tolerate it when it comes to class discussion and grades. Go back and read my earlier posts... I am in favor of free exchange of ideas in the academic environment, that's all. To have the same academic inquiry that brought us the "progress" of the 60s. But apparently that is not well and good for some people on this board, who have really had their button pushed.

Quote:
So we have nothing to show actual repression of thought and speech; nothing to show actual oppression of right-wing ideas, but we still call them "thugs".

Again, I wonder if you set the "proof" bar this high for other types of discrimination. What do you want, transcripts of classroom exchanges? Do you want me to send papers to a third party for re-grading on a fairer subjective scale? You're demanding proof, and dismissing upon not receiving it... when there is no systemic way of proving it in the first place.

Quote:
What else do they have (on this issue)? A false sense of victimization, of martyrdom, is all they have.

So your contention is that it does not happen. I'm telling you that it does. I've experienced it. I know you are wrong, and you dismiss what I am telling you. So there is really no point with continuing this line of argument.
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post #101 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

The Republican student organization had a table in our student union a couple days ago. It was amazing, there were lesbians and enviro-fascists and differently-abled students and darwinists all ganging up on them and chanting and denying them their rights. They are the truly oppressed today.

Congrats. You get the Hyperbole Award.
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post #102 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I was not speaking of physical violence.

Then what "danger" do those poor, maligned conservatives face?

Quote:
"Rhetoric of the oppressed"? Surely you are smarter than that, midwinter.

Yes. All conservatives ever do is whine about how oppressed they are.

Quote:
You're over-playing your response... there ARE professors, which I have said are rare, that DO create hostile environments for people that do not agree with them.

What is a "hostile environment"? What does that mean? Every time a conservative student makes any comment the professor tells him to shut up? Regardless of the comment?

Please, specifically: what hostile environment?

Quote:
At least we've found one minority that is not worth defending or listening to... the known-quantity conservative in a liberal university classroom.

You are patently delusional if you think that conservatives are a minority on college campuses. Maybe you aren't aware of this, but between Berkeley on the west and the Ivies on the east, there are a whole lot of universities. And believe me, in no way, shape, or form are these studentswho make up a substantial portion of the student populationoppressed.
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post #103 of 424
I really don't get this from you guys... the academe is about 90% liberal. Why is it so hard for some of you to admit that it might be possible that proportions like that could, just maybe, lead to the occasional hostile professor?

If we had a structure in society that was, I dunno, 90% white, would the accusation that there may have been discriminatory actions among some of the members be as shocking?

So very interesting.
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post #104 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I really don't get this from you guys... the academe is about 90% liberal. Why is it so hard for some of you to admit that it might be possible that proportions like that could, just maybe, lead to the occasional hostile professor?

No one is denying that there are assholes in the professoriate. What is being questioned is whether or not there is some endemic pattern of "oppression" that seemingly every conservative student has experiencedso institutionalized that even those conservatives who don't cry out against it must be the ones who just put their heads down and parroted the wrong-headed, liberal views of their professors.
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post #105 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Then what "danger" do those poor, maligned conservatives face?

As I said before... grades and a hostile learning environment.

Quote:
Yes. All conservatives ever do is whine about how oppressed they are.

This coming from the proponent of an ideology that thrives on finding new "victims" around every corner.


Quote:
What is a "hostile environment"? What does that mean? Every time a conservative student makes any comment the professor tells him to shut up? Regardless of the comment?

Please, specifically: what hostile environment?

A hostile environment is created when a professor, rather than choosing the path of constructive discourse, chooses to use his or her bully pulpit, and the power held therein, to attempt to embarrass or mock a student for their political belief. I once had a PoliSci professor demand that I defend a Reagan Administration policy... with a "you people" and a "conservatism kills people" thrown in for good measure. Did I handle him? You bet. But it cost me. And that is not where I believe the academe is at its best.

Quote:
And believe me, in no way, shape, or form are these studentswho make up a substantial portion of the student populationoppressed.

Middy... I am not claiming a 100%, across-the-board, systemic oppression of conservatives. I've never made that claim. I've said that there are times when certain professors can go out of bounds both in terms of their duties to free inquiry, and their duty to fairness in academic assessment.
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post #106 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

it must be the ones who just put their heads down and parroted the wrong-headed, liberal views of their professors.

Actually, rather than play the lottery with ideologues, many of us conservatives learned how to say what we needed to so as to get the grade we wanted. Sometimes there was a hill I wanted to die on. In most cases, no. If a prof had a reputation as being an ideologue, I fed it right back parrot style to feed his ego, got my "A" writing absurd bullshit I did not believe, and learned the life lesson.

On the flip side, as I posted before, there were professors who I could not disagree with more who remain lifelong friends. And there was one who agreed with my views politically who I would not pick up the phone for. In the roughly 50 professors I have had in my life, I can only name 2-3 who I believe were unfair. Not many... but when they are in your major, and you are looking for a spot in a highly competitive grad school, it can make a difference.
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post #107 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Middy... I am not claiming a 100%, across-the-board, systemic oppression of conservatives. I've never made that claim. I've said that there are times when certain professors can go out of bounds both in terms of their duties to free inquiry, and their duty to fairness in academic assessment.

So, in other words, professors, as a group of people, contain a certain percentage of dicks.

Wow, what a HUGE shocker. That applies to every group. Is it more common among professors than other groups? More common among liberal professors than conservative or middle of the road professors? And among those sub-groups, are they more likely to be dicks to those of the opposite political persuasion?

Let's see the evidence.
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post #108 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Let's see the evidence.

Go read my posts to groverat re: "proof"

Oh, and when i do find this impossible "evidence," I'll make sure to put it on your "eye" side.
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post #109 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

As I said before... grades and a hostile learning environment.

So then there should be thousands of conservatives across America flunking out of school. Where are they?

Quote:
This coming from the proponent of an ideology that thrives on finding new "victims" around every corner.

Irrelevant.

Quote:
A hostile environment is created when a professor, rather than choosing the path of constructive discourse, chooses to use his or her bully pulpit, and the power held therein, to attempt to embarrass or mock a student for their political belief.

Agreed.

Quote:
I once had a PoliSci professor demand that I defend a Reagan Administration policy... with a "you people" and a "conservatism kills people" thrown in for good measure. Did I handle him? You bet. But it cost me. And that is not where I believe the academe is at its best.

You know, sometimes professors say things. Sometimes, they play a "role" when they stand up there, and they might even, in the course of discussing something, single out a student who has been vocally conservative throughout the semester and say "OK, Jubelum, how do you people defend Reagan's policy of eating live babies on the steps of the supreme court against claims that his conservatism kills people?" And then the student responds. And then they go on with class. And then the student gets all upset because he thinks he was being mocked, even though the professor was trying to engage the students in some kind of discussion about the topic.

But more often, a student is given an essay to write about, say, Darwin or Marx. The essay is specific, say. It might ask the student to read Darwin in a specific way. But the student doesn't do that. The student writes a rant about the evils of evolution or Marxism, does a crap job of it, and gets a crap grade. Then the student complains about oppression.

This happens all the time

Quote:
Middy... I am not claiming a 100%, across-the-board, systemic oppression of conservatives. I've never made that claim. I've said that there are times when certain professors can go out of bounds both in terms of their duties to free inquiry, and their duty to fairness in academic assessment.

Then why are you still arguing? No one is going to disagree with the idea that sometimes a professor behaves like an ass.

But you should keep in mind that sometimes students behave like asses, too, and insist on disrupting planned lectures or discussions by insisting that their viewpoint be addressed, even though it means that the rest of the class doesn't get the instruction on the material that the professor is supposed to be teaching.
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post #110 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Actually, rather than play the lottery with ideologues, many of us conservatives learned how to say what we needed to so as to get the grade we wanted.

I hate to break it to you, but that's what everyone does. It wasn't just you being singled out. It's what David Bartholomae calls "Inventing the University."
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post #111 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

So then there should be thousands of conservatives across America flunking out of school. Where are they?

Non-sequitur.

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Irrelevant.

But of course it is.

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You know, sometimes professors say things.

I was there. I know the prof, the context, and the content of the apology after the Dean was done with it. But the B+ stuck in a subjectively graded class.

Quote:
But more often, a student is given an essay to write about, say, Darwin or Marx. The essay is specific, say. It might ask the student to read Darwin in a specific way. But the student doesn't do that. The student writes a rant about the evils of evolution or Marxism, does a crap job of it, and gets a crap grade. Then the student complains about oppression.

And if you do not follow the directions, then you get a bad grade. That's fine. But I am talking about the profs that grade the POV and not the quality of thought.

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Then why are you still arguing? No one is going to disagree with the idea that sometimes a professor behaves like an ass.

I'm setting the dog-pile straight, as it were. You, grove, and BR had some serious critiques and misconceptions.

Quote:
But you should keep in mind that sometimes students behave like asses, too, and insist on disrupting planned lectures or discussions by insisting that their viewpoint be addressed, even though it means that the rest of the class doesn't get the instruction on the material that the professor is supposed to be teaching.

And that can be handled in a constructive way. Mocking, pointing, hyperbole, and embarrassment are not the way to go about that... especially for someone with a PhD. I expect better of the learned erudite sages of academia.
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post #112 of 424
I'd just like to know why people are spending time blabbing about their political opinions in classes rather than actually doing something constructive. I never knew what any of the political views of any of my teachers or fellow students were.
post #113 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I'd just like to know why people are spending time blabbing about their political opinions in classes rather than actually doing something constructive. I never knew what any of the political views of any of my teachers or fellow students were.

That separation can be difficult in social science classes. Especially in an environment that encourages activism.
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post #114 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I'd just like to know why people are spending time blabbing about their political opinions in classes rather than actually doing something constructive. I never knew what any of the political views of any of my teachers or fellow students were.

Indeed. I only knew my professors' political stripes because I'd occasionally see them at our weekly readings of Kapital or when we gathered around the fire to tell stories about how men are all evil.
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post #115 of 424
Idiotic
Idle
Idolatrous
Ignorant
Illiterate
Illogical
Imbecilic
Immature
Imperceptible
Impertinent
Impish
Implausible
Imponderable
Impossible
Impotent
Improbable
Improper
Impudent
Inactive
Inadequate
Inadvertent
Inanimate
Inappreciable
Inapt
Incapable
Incoherent
Incompatible
Incompetent
Inconceivable
Incongruent
Incontinent
Indifferent
Indiscernible
Indistinguishable
Indolent
Ineffectual
Inept
Infant
Inoperative
Insane
Insensible
Insensitive
Insentient
Insipid
Insolent
Institutionalized
Intangible
intolerant
Invalid
Inviable
Invisible
Irrational
Irregular
Irrelevant
Irresponsible

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #116 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Go read my posts to groverat re: "proof"

Oh, and when i do find this impossible "evidence," I'll make sure to put it on your "eye" side.


Yes, Yes, we all know you don't have any. You just KNOW that it simply MUST be true. Aren't conservatives the party of personal responsibility?

I imagine there are precious few people who've been to college who didn't encounter a dick professor and felt they received a lower grad than they should have because of said dickitude.

I'd just like some scintilla of evidence that conservative students are more adversely affected by dick professors than others.
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post #117 of 424
Thread Starter 
Jubelum:

Quote:
How, groverat, do you propose that it CAN be proved, especially in the subjective world of Political Science and Sociology?

As I already said, an unfairly graded assignment.

Quote:
I was active in Social Sciences... and there are usually two-or more- sides and world views concerning almost any issue. I'm not proposing that professors BELIEVE the other worldview, only that they impartially tolerate it when it comes to class discussion and grades. Go back and read my earlier posts... I am in favor of free exchange of ideas in the academic environment, that's all. To have the same academic inquiry that brought us the "progress" of the 60s. But apparently that is not well and good for some people on this board, who have really had their button pushed.

You haven't shown that professors do not impartially tolerate other worldviews. To me, that only applies to grades. Class discussion is another issue, because if you've got one person trying to dominate class time with unfounded ideas then it's a waste of everyone else's time so one nut can dance on his soapbox. That class time isn't your time, it's the professor's time. That's why he's at the front of the room and you're in the seat. Perhaps you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a classroom is.

Quote:
Again, I wonder if you set the "proof" bar this high for other types of discrimination. What do you want, transcripts of classroom exchanges? Do you want me to send papers to a third party for re-grading on a fairer subjective scale? You're demanding proof, and dismissing upon not receiving it... when there is no systemic way of proving it in the first place.

If you could just say, "I had papers unfairly graded." that would be something specific, if loose and subjective.

Just say that and you will have made a meaningful statement at last.

Quote:
So your contention is that it does not happen. I'm telling you that it does. I've experienced it. I know you are wrong, and you dismiss what I am telling you. So there is really no point with continuing this line of argument.

I'm sure it does happen, but I have no reason to believe it is statistically significant. Some teachers rape students. All kinds of things happens in academia. I don't give a shit about it if it isn't something systemic, because we could all just cry about the individual professors that didn't like us.
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post #118 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Yes, Yes, we all know you don't have any. You just KNOW that it simply MUST be true. Aren't conservatives the party of personal responsibility?

This is fun. I've explained to you why "proof" is problematic in a subjective environment. All you have left is "prove it." I'll ask you as well... do you set the bar at the same "prove it" level with other groups who claim discrimination? Sexual harassment? Racism?

Yes, conservatives to believe in personal responsibility. And I made that professor take responsibility for his actions. And the dean agreed with me. I'm not sure how that happened, if it is "all in my head."
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post #119 of 424
[QUOTE=groverat;1239128]Jubelum:

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As I already said, an unfairly graded assignment.

I already said that... and the subjective B+ stuck, despite the Faculty Dean's rebuke.

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if you've got one person trying to dominate class time with unfounded ideas then it's a waste of everyone else's time so one nut can dance on his soapbox. That class time isn't your time, it's the professor's time. That's why he's at the front of the room and you're in the seat. Perhaps you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a classroom is.

Perhaps you have fundamental misunderstanding of who I am as a student. You guys keep throwing out "well, a student cannot disrupt..." - well, guess what... I never "took over" or disrupted, or derailed a class. I was there. You were not.

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If you could just say, "I had papers unfairly graded." that would be something specific, if loose and subjective.Just say that and you will have made a meaningful statement at last.

I've already said that I had a 100% subjective grade affected. Three times now.
"Stand Up for Chuck"
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"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #120 of 424
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Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

:I made that professor take responsibility for his actions. And the dean agreed with me. I'm not sure how that happened, if it is "all in my head."

So you had a bad professor.

*shrugs*
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