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Reseller's website offline following pledge of $400 Mac clone - Page 3

post #81 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

The main point of your little speech seems to be that people who purchase this clone will expect Apple to support it. Even though no one on this thread -- or on any of the other boards I've read today on the subject-- has stated this expectation. I think it's a fair to make the assumption that anyone who would purchase a clone would be aware that they can't turn to Apple for support.,

Your secondary point is that people who would choose to purchase a clone would be doing so out of spite (or because they're cheap), rather than to fill their need for a mid-range, expandable desktop. Again, you seem to be addressing comments/people that don't exist.

In short, you talk a lot for someone who "will be buying my first Apple computer sometime this year".

Yes, I will buy my own personal Apple "sometime this year". It's not just talk since I work in corporate environment administering both PC's and Macs. My corporate workstation is a Mac Pro. Mac's are slowly replacing our windows machines because we have pretty much had it with the instabilities of Windows. Apple's OSX has been hugely successful for our users and requires virtually no assistance from us outside of very small training issues when coming from a Windows environment. VMWare Fusion and Windows XP works quite well when we need those specific apps that are only available for Windows. The integration between hardware and software was a huge selling point for us and management. We don't care that they don't use the most absolute-current technology because Apple makes certain (and certifies) that all the components will work as advertised. That is what makes Apple so good. Crapware companies trying to hitch a ride on Apple's success by producing a lousy product deserves the legal kicking they are going to receive.

I haven't purchased my own personal Mac yet only because I'm waiting for the June announcement. My old home computer is finally showing its age and after using Macs for many years at work, I'm a true believer in their machines.
post #82 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Bingo. That would be the reason that this product would be successful; Apple does not sell the product that a large number of Mac users want to buy. If someone else comes along as does so, Apple's losses are entirely of their own doing.

I just bought a new iMac, but I'll give it to my son and buy an OpenMac in a heartbeat if it actually comes to fruition, for no other reason than it's the Mac I wanted to buy from Apple in the first place.

assuming they did not break any laws.. Secondly, you have to be careful with software being installed in a machine that is not designed to work. You might find a lot more headache then you think. For example, Vista's compatibility problem with its drivers might occur with this type of installation. There is a reason why people still buy Apple despite higher price than other computer manufacturer.

there is also a reason why Mac OS X "just work". Because it is designed for Apple's machine. In addition, according to the article Appleinsider, Mac sales have gone up despite economic downturn and keep increasing its market share. So this means that Mac computers are not over price. It doesnt make much sense if people think Apple is expensive and sales has increased. So, most people probably think its worth it to buy it.
post #83 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelhot View Post

You got that right .

Anyway, what would you feel if Apple offer a mid range desktop computer that is not upgradeable? Would you still want it?

Yes, I would want it. Even though all my prior PC's were all fully expandable, I never upgraded them. I just build a new PC every 2 or three years because the technology was just so much better that it made no sense to upgrade a PC. It was just a viscous cycle that would not end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelhot View Post

Anyway from my opinion, this method of making people buy their product while in truth you can do exactly the same thing on your own 3 years old PC is bad.

True to a point. However, you can't expect Apple to help you when OSX doesn't work on that three-year-old video card. In my experience and to all the users I help as well as friends, they rarely have any machines older than three years. Where money is an issue, obviously they wait longer.
post #84 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

The reason I switched to Mac is for the peace of mind. I don't have to worry about driver/OS update problems and I don't have to pay money if the computer breaks (yes I bought Apple Care). I got my iMac logic board replaced on warranty few months ago ($400 value for the parts).

So you bought an extended replacement warranty and used it. I suppose such things don't exist on other PCs? As much as I like OS X, it's hardly perfect. Especially Leopard, which many consider to be an awful upgrade that has caused an enormous number of problems. It hasn't been called Apple's version of Vista for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Just like those who jailbreak their iPhones. those who buy Hacked Mac computers are missing the most important features of any Apple product. Sure you can save $100 or $200, but is it worth the trouble and headache if you have problem?!

Upgrades?! My iMac is 18 months old and I really don't see a need for any upgrade. Nothing really new except the aluminum case and a small increase in processors speed. I think I can go another year at least without worrying about an upgrade.

That's great for you, but quite a few people aren't satisfied with the relatively low performance of an iMac and can't see paying more than $2k for the base-model Mac Pro. The Hackintosh I helped build is nearly 1/3 the price of a Mac Pro, not $100 or $200 less. It's almost as fast and has a lot more RAM and disk space than the base model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Not only that, it will probably be a noisy piece of junk just like all the other PC's since the hardware won't be controlled by the software and the fans will run full speed all the time. Yeah, that is what people want. Since Apple's hardware is already flying off store shelves, people are willing to spend money for quality. They aren't looking for a cheap piece of junk. That is what Windows users want.

Apple already had a mid-tower, the Power Mac G3 and G4. If you really want a tower, buy a Mac Pro. Apple isn't losing any money over not offering a cheap tower. Laptops already outsell desktops, and the iMac is very successful. So I think your market for a cheap mid-tower is pretty small. Small enough where Apple doesn't need one, which is why they phased out the smaller G3/G4 tower box and left the Mac Pro for the Pros.

Those were not midrange mid-towers. Those were Apple's top of the line pro machines at the time. The Mac Pro did not magically replace the G3/G4 because Apple needed more internal space. The PowerMac G5 came before the Mac Pro, and that had only two hard drive bays for the same "full size tower" design. Do get your facts straight.

As for your fan statement, boy are you behind the times. Every modern motherboard I've seen has PWM speed control for all fans, just like Apple, so they hardly "run full speed all the time." Like it or not, today's Intel-based Apple motherboards are nothing more than slightly tweaked versions of mainstream motherboards. There's nothing special about them. More than just Windows users want less expensive machines. If every Mac user were willing to pay more, why isn't the Mac Pro the best selling maching in Apple's lineup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobertoq View Post

hopefully Apple will make some new (cheaper) cinema displays (20", 24", 30", 36") with high-quality iSight camera and mic, with an optional matte or glossy display.

A "cheaper" display from Apple would still be up to twice the price of its competition. And there's no excuse about it costing more because Apple needs to make it high quality to work with OS X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmon750 View Post

Apple machines work well because everything is designed to work well together. OSX in the wild would have the same problems as the windows environment. Unstable software components wreaking havoc and ruining the user-experience.

You're really out of the Hackintosh loop. Everyone there understands that any problems they may encounter are because they're trying to run OS X on unsupported machines. They don't blame Apple, except when it really is Apple's fault. I've used genuine Macs for more years than any of these Johnny-come-latelies (especially the ones who say they're just about to buy their first Mac), but I'm willing to admit when Apple screws up. There are so many ways Leopard doesn't work as well as Tiger did (despite the new features), and you can't blame anyone but Apple for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmon750 View Post

Apple having complete control over hardware and software is why they work so well.

Except when they don't work so well. How about that AI article today about yet another problem with their hardware? This is not the first time, either. There have been numerous battery recalls, problems with discoloration on notebooks, other display problems with both laptop and Cinema Displays, etc.
post #85 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

If that were true, eBay wouldn't be nearly as good as it is, now, would it?

First of all, it is nothing like Ebay. Because when you sell something on Ebay, you did not alter the Mac products usage. When you knowingly or not altered its use, you have violated the agreement.
post #86 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

So you bought an extended replacement warranty and used it. I suppose such things don't exist on other PCs? As much as I like OS X, it's hardly perfect. Especially Leopard, which many consider to be an awful upgrade that has caused an enormous number of problems. It hasn't been called Apple's version of Vista for nothing.

I used Sony Vaio before, and the service is no where as good as the macs. Sorry pc people, Mac's warranty is worth every penny. Because they replace everything for free and its fast. Sony's warranty.. not as fast and their service is ok at best. so its not worth to pay $400.

secondly, no operating system is perfect. What makes leopard different then vista is that the drivers works and it boots a lot faster than vista. If you want to be picky, OS X makes computing easier than vista. And also, no one in the mac community cries "save the old OS" like windows "save XP". despite being called apple's version of vista, i can honestly say it is still better than vista, in that most users still find it an upgrade from the old OS. and dont forget the most obvious reason, Mac doesnt have a lot of virus (yet).
post #87 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

The logical error in the thinking behind your post and piot's is that it assumes Apple wouldn't have done as well or better without the iMac.

Actually Ink that's not very logical. Pointing out that Apple's Mac sales (without your desired system) are ACTUALLY growing much much faster than the rest of the PC market (with a hundred different versions of your miditower) has a bit more weight than just saying "I want one, so everyone else wants one too".

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

The fact that Psystar put themselves on the map overnight by offering a Mac mid-range tower speaks volumes, as far as I'm concerned. Who heard of these guys two days ago?

Oh Ink! Why is it always about you? Psytar is on the map because they are offering a non-Apple Mac. Period. Do you think that they would just be ignored if they were offering a $500 MacBook clone? Sigh.
post #88 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

Where do you get the idea that I, as a consumer, must support Apple? If they don't have a product I want, then maybe a competitor should be allowed to step in to provide it.

The OpenMac looks pretty damn good to me. Then again, I think the iMac and its Las Vegas glossy display sucks and the Mini is a freakin' overpriced box of circa-2006 leftovers. I've been using Macs for 15+ years and Apple, for the first time since I've been using Macs, has nothing that fits my needs and budget. And Apple apparently cannot hear the numerous calls from both consumers and high profile tech commentators for them to release a mid-range tower.

Somewhere along the way, it appears that Apple lost their passion for making decent computers and are too infatuated with selling music and making cell phones. Look at the buyer's guide on MacRumors and explain why Apple is taking almost a year between updates on the iMac and the Mac Mini now? It wasn't like that three years ago. We could count on regular price drops or spec bumps every 4-5 months. But now Apple is showing a surprising lack of interest in their consumer machines.

So you think I should support Apple? How about if Apple gets with the program and gets out of this 1998 all-in-one mentality and start making the products that people really want?

the answer is simple, Apple simply not interested in the market you are describing. If its big big enough and Apple has the resource, why wouldnt they do it? I dont think they are that stupid to ignore a "large market" if they think its a large market.
post #89 of 236
Quote:
If you don't like what Apple has to offer, then go somewhere else. No other OSX options? Well, that is just too bad! Apple has every right to safeguard their systems to prevent chop-shops like these guys from diluting and tarnishing OSX. Apple having complete control over hardware and software is why they work so well. What part of that equation do you not understand? You are in such a ridiculously low minority of people who think that the iMac hardware is inferior. You're just more vocal. They may not use the most current components out there but they definitely work more in harmony with the OS than Windows. Stick with Windows or Linux. It's obvious that OSX is not for you. If Apple does not come out with a low-end Mac Pro, then they don't. Move on with your life.

Some people agree with you (I'm one of them) but sadly, there are a majority of people who dont get the message.

Quote:
So you bought an extended replacement warranty and used it. I suppose such things don't exist on other PCs? As much as I like OS X, it's hardly perfect. Especially Leopard, which many consider to be an awful upgrade that has caused an enormous number of problems. It hasn't been called Apple's version of Vista for nothing.

Since when Leopard is known as Apples Vista? Bugs? Every OS in the world has bugs, that doesnt make it sucky. You want to know why Leopard is not Vista, cause it works. It has a lot of new features that works unlike Vista which features are only for looks and Ooooosssss. and your old 3 years old Printer + Scanner + Fax machine works with Leopard unlike Vista, so LEOPARD is NOT Vista, get your facts right. And you dont hear people yelling or posting in YouTube or forums about save Tiger dont upgrade to Leopard cause in truth you are downgrading!!!. I never heard of that before, I know I heard it from users who use Vista

Quote:
That's great for you, but quite a few people aren't satisfied with the relatively low performance of an iMac but can't see paying more than $2k for the base-model Mac Pro. The Hackintosh I helped build is nearly 1/3 the price of a Mac Pro, not $100 or $200 less. It's almost as fast and has a lot more RAM and disk space than the base model.

I want you to think hard why Leopard doesn't need to have suites like Vista (HB, HP, B, U). Let me help you, its cause they are using the money they get from their hardwares to support the development of OS X, do you think if Apple only sell software they can offer Leopard at the price you are paying now?

Quote:
You're really out of the Hackintosh loop. Everyone there understands that any problems they may encounter are because they're trying to run OS X on unsupported machines. They don't blame Apple, except when it really is Apple's fault. I've used genuine Macs for more years than any of these Johnny-come-latelies (especially the ones who say they're just about to buy their first Mac), but I'm willing to admit when Apple screws up. There are so many ways Leopard doesn't work as well as Tiger did (despite the new features), and you can't blame anyone but Apple for that.

You are correct about this, but once a company like this OpenMac start offering it for the public, the public dont understand the true situation and when something goes wrong, they will start blaming Apple where in truth, Apple never supported the Hackintosh project. I myself run Hackintosh but sometime I just wish Im getting an Apple (this May).

Besides, I consider mid tower worthless if its not upgradeable (GPU, Processor and etc) cause people who upgrade their computers are usually gamers. Besides, your Mac now would last another 5 years and by that time, softwares would finally not work on your Mac cause its slow and its time to upgrade, 5 years is good investment and by that time technology would be advanced and naturally you would want to upgrade.
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Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
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post #90 of 236
OK people, if you have a problem with the way Apple market their product, why dont you make your own Mac like OS. Seriously, you can do it with linux. And its free. Whats stopping you? dont waste your time arguing on what Apple should do.

Apple do not have an obligation to make a product you want. they have rights to their products. its the same thing as all of us have the right to vote. I will give the three magical words: "We can choose."
post #91 of 236
Filing Information
Document Number\tP07000077580
FEI Number\tNONE
Date Filed\t07/06/2007
State\tFL
Status\tACTIVE
Effective Date\t07/01/2007
Principal Address
10645 SW 112 ST
MIAMI FL 33176
Mailing Address
10645 SW 112 ST
MIAMI FL 33176
Registered Agent Name & Address
PEDRAZA, RODOLFO
10645 SW 112 ST
MIAMI FL 33176 US
Officer/Director Detail
Name & Address
Title D
PEDRAZA, RODOLFO
10645 SW 112 ST
MIAMI FL 33176
Title D
PEDRAZA, ROBERTO
10645 SW 112 ST
MIAMI FL 33176
Annual Reports
No Annual Reports Filed
post #92 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ros3ntan View Post

First of all, it is nothing like Ebay. Because when you sell something on Ebay, you did not alter the Mac products usage. When you knowingly or not altered its use, you have violated the agreement.

Are you saying that the 1723 unlocked iphones currently for sale on ebay haven't been altered in any way?
post #93 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Are you saying that the 1723 unlocked iphones currently for sale on ebay haven't been altered in any way?

Did i say mac product or Apple product? hm.. i think there is a difference... Macs are the computers.

Didnt Apple brick those phones with their update? or are you saying apple should sue them one by one? Apple is not that stupid man. Why would they sue their customer. There is no point because its too many and besides, the most they can get out of them is probably $5000.. its the same thing as illegal windows xp copies being sold in other countries. Why dont microsoft sue them?

And yes, those phones are illegally altered, so it violates the agreement. and still, that has nothing to do with ebay. If ebay were selling those products, then that might be a lawsuit worth pursuing for Apple.

and please stop comparing ebay with psystar. Ebay is just a mean. They dont personally sell the items. Psystar is personnaly selling the product
post #94 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Are you saying that the 1723 unlocked iphones currently for sale on ebay haven't been altered in any way?

Unlocked phones do go against the agreement, unless they are factory unlocked like the ones being sold in France in Germany. One shouldn't expect Apple to bend over backwards to help you with software issues that are caused by a software jailbreak or unlock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ros3ntan View Post

Didnt Apple brick those phones with their update?

Some iPhones were bricked by stupid users that tried to put Apple's iPhone software on their jailbroken device. They should have reverted to factory settings and then installed it, or waited 5 minutes for the hacker community to create a solution. There is no evidence that Apple added code to brick the devices. The logical answer is that Apple didn't take the jailbroken devices into consideration when creating their update. Though, the last update does have some evidence that Apple may be taking that into consideration now. We'll see with the next update.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #95 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ros3ntan View Post

Didnt Apple brick those phones with their update? or are you saying apple should sue them one by one? Apple is not that stupid man. Why would they sue their customer. There is no point because its too many and besides, the most they can get out of them is probably $5000.. its the same thing as illegal windows xp copies being sold in other countries. Why dont microsoft sue them?

And yes, those phones are illegally altered. and still, that has nothing to do with ebay.

You're taking my comments out of context. I was originally replyiing to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post
That may be true, however, one company cannot distribute another companies product without its permission. Amongst other legal theories, that is a blatant violation of Trademark law. Consequently, this company could never legally distribute OSX without Apple's permission.

I was using eBay as an example of redistributing another company's product without permission. I could also have used newspaper classified ads as an example. There's nothing against the law in the western world with reselling something you've bought, and if you want to paint a chair or unlock an iPhone or circuit bend a Speak and Spell or install OSX on a Dell computer, the worst the manufacturer can do is void the warranty.
post #96 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

You're taking my comments out of context. I was originally replyiing to:



I was using eBay as an example of redistributing another company's product without permission. I could also have used newspaper classified ads as an example. There's nothing against the law in the western world with reselling something you've bought, and if you want to paint a chair or unlock an iPhone or circuit bend a Speak and Spell or install OSX on a Dell computer, the worst the manufacturer can do is void the warranty.

ohh ok i get it.

I think Tbell is missing the point. The violation is not in the distribution part. its in the installation of the product. UELA: one cannot install Leopard on a non-apple machine.
post #97 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

You're taking my comments out of context. I was originally replyiing to:



I was using eBay as an example of redistributing another company's product without permission. I could also have used newspaper classified ads as an example. There's nothing against the law in the western world with reselling something you've bought, and if you want to paint a chair or unlock an iPhone or circuit bend a Speak and Spell or install OSX on a Dell computer, the worst the manufacturer can do is void the warranty.

but didnt they have a law where you cannot distribute a new product or something?? cause most of the stuff in ebay is technically second hand. Regardless of what the user say about them. because they bought from Apple first. Thats why companies need permission for distributing Apple's new product.
post #98 of 236
Didn't any of you (except Benton) bother to check just who "Psystar" is?

Being from the area, I instantly recognized that this address is smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood in Kendall, complete with swimming pool in his backyard. There is not a commercial piece of property with a mile.

Indeed, the company was just incorporated in July of 2007, does not even have an FEI number, has never filed a corporate report with the State of Florida-- this really looks like a top notch corporate operation, doesn't it?

You all send in your money and let us know how things work out, okay?

Hey-- but he only charges $45.00 for one hour of on-site computer service: what a deal.....

But remember, if it looks like a duck, has web feet, walks like a duck, and quacks-- it probably is a duck! I believe that this is exactly what it looks like... be sure to look yourself before getting all excited.

The days of a guy in his garage making mainstream computers is long gone people!
post #99 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflorida View Post

Didn't any of you (except Benton) bother to check just who "Psystar" is?

Being from the area, I instantly recognized that this address is smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood in Kendall, complete with swimming pool in his backyard. There is not a commercial piece of property with a mile.

Indeed, the company was just incorporated in July of 2007, does not even have an FEI number, has never filed a corporate report with the State of Florida-- this really looks like a top notch corporate operation, doesn't it?

You all send in your money and let us know how things work out, okay?

Hey-- but he only charges $45.00 for one hour of on-site computer service: what a deal.....

But remember, if it looks like a duck, has web feet, walks like a duck, and quacks-- it probably is a duck! I believe that this is exactly what it looks like... be sure to look yourself before getting all excited.

The days of a guy in his garage making mainstream computers is long gone people!

i did. on the site, it says 2008 copyright. So they are pretty new. And im guessing they do not have the experience to handle lawsuits.. and if what you are saying is true, then this is a very new company with no credibility. So better not trust what they said in regard with the lawsuit.
post #100 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ros3ntan View Post

OK people, if you have a problem with the way Apple market their product, why dont you make your own Mac like OS. Seriously, you can do it with linux. And its free. Whats stopping you? dont waste your time arguing on what Apple should do.

Apple do not have an obligation to make a product you want. they have rights to their products. its the same thing as all of us have the right to vote. I will give the three magical words: "We can choose."

I don't use OS X because I just want to run a Mac version of a PC equivalent piece of software.

I want to develop with ObjC/Cocoa. I want to leverage the functionality that is seemlessly integrated within OS X.

I use Linux daily--Debian Sid. I have used it daily for over 6 years.

It's not OS X and it's Development Environment for ObjC -- GNUstep is 5 or more years away from being equivalent--in short, it will always be behind Apple as it depends on Apple to keep Openstep compliance and Cocoa conformance rudimentary similar.

I'll stop there. I could reference the many Apple Applications that aren't on Linux to expound upon why I want to us OS X.
post #101 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

I don't use OS X because I just want to run a Mac version of a PC equivalent piece of software.

I want to develop with ObjC/Cocoa. I want to leverage the functionality that is seemlessly integrated within OS X.

I use Linux daily--Debian Sid. I have used it daily for over 6 years.

It's not OS X and it's Development Environment for ObjC -- GNUstep is 5 or more years away from being equivalent--in short, it will always be behind Apple as it depends on Apple to keep Openstep compliance and Cocoa conformance rudimentary similar.

I'll stop there. I could reference the many Apple Applications that aren't on Linux to expound upon why I want to us OS X.

i said that to target normal users not heavy users.. hahhaa... if you want to develop cocoa.. then yeah you have no choice...

but wouldnt you want to develop it on a mac system, which is more stable?
post #102 of 236
Hey, Psystar has just updated their site, and they now have an "OpenPro" option that starts at $999. Check these specs out:


Memory: 8GB DDR2 RAM (+ $225.00)
Processor: Core2Quad/2.6GHz (+ $400.00)
Hard Drive: 1 TB 7200RPM SATA (+ $150.00)
Video Card: GeForce 8600GT 512MB
Case: Silver
Installed OS: OS X 10.5 Leopard (+ $155.00)
All in a very nice silver case with firewire, and high-end cooling system

for a total of $1929.

Configuring a MacPro with the same options runs the total to $4399, so the OpenPro costs just 44% of what a Mac would.

Perhaps more interesting is that you can also have the computer pre - installed with Linux (for free) or Windows XP or Vista!

I know there's been tons of disagreement on this thread, but at least Psystar has shown us just how cheap Apple computers COULD be, if Apple didn't lock us into buying their hardware and paying for their advertising, product placement and 5th Avenue flagship stores...

I hope tons of people buy from Psystar and forces Apple to lower prices and give more options for Desktop computers. Now all we need is a company to make an altered iPod exterior to accommodate a user-replaceable battery!
post #103 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Actually Ink that's not very logical. Pointing out that Apple's Mac sales (without your desired system) are ACTUALLY growing much much faster than the rest of the PC market (with a hundred different versions of your miditower) has a bit more weight than just saying "I want one, so everyone else wants one too".

I've argued against using market share as a popularity metric in computers for a very long time and I'm not about to change that because Apple is finally gaining some ground. Market share is simply the percentage of a given market total sales revenue that one company takes in a given period of time. The computing market has taken a downward turn lately and Apple, historically, tends to move units more consistently even during market downturns. Therefore, I think you can see how much Apple's recent "gains" have been exaggerated. I don't deny that Apple is getting more popular, but if there are less people buying, it's easier for a company to have larger slice of the pie, relatively speaking. It doesn't mean Apple has doubled or tripled their sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Oh Ink! Why is it always about you? Psytar is on the map because they are offering a non-Apple Mac. Period. Do you think that they would just be ignored if they were offering a $500 MacBook clone? Sigh.

I try to avoid pointing out the obvious, but you either need it pointed out or are simply refusing to acknowledge it, perhaps realizing that it simply blows your argument away. Here's a fact: the tower computer is the single biggest selling type of computer on the market. Period. I think this mid-range Mac clone has generated a lot of interest because it's something Apple, bizarrely enough, lacks. They don't lack laptops so I think a $500 MacBook clone would generate interest, but not the kind of buzz we're seeing here.
post #104 of 236
So, Mr Joe Public hears about this from a friend and orders one of these thinking that its a cheap way into getting a Mac. Apple release a point update and you download it (because your not so mac savvy) and it screws your install. He calls Apple (well, he has a Leopard License with his computer) and they laugh their ass off at him down the phone. He then calls Psystar who will probably have been shut down by Apple by then. He is now the proud owner of an expensive PC.
post #105 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkarl View Post

Agree completely on all points. I GLADLY pay a bit of a premium to have the Apple experience. Hardware and Software both.

Comments like the above really make me laugh sometimes.

I was a PC user for years and of course had issues from time to time, usually driver issues and conflicts with windows. The best PC i ever owned however is the one I built myself, this had no warranty or support but lasted me years - of course easy to upgrade and swap graphics cards, memory and processors etc.. Buying a tower with no warranty does not mean an inferior product.

I started my Mac life three years ago when I bought a MacMini to act as my media server for my home theatre set-up (the only reason why I went Apple was form factor and lack of noise). Last year I bought an Apple TV, Airport Extreme, 2x Airport Express's a Mac Book and a Mac Book Pro.

In the last year I have suffered more wireless related issues than I ever have, constantly dropping connections, My Airport Express just stopped working, dead. My wives Mac Book crashes sometimes and has to be rebooted and she spent quite a while after the leopard upgrade not being able to type!! - Apple why release software that you have not tested on all hardware?

But best of all is my Mac Book Pro, It overheats far too much and freezes, only a reboot gets it working. My delete key no longer works (hardware issue as external keyboard works). And sometimes it crashes when I unplug the power cord. Forget the standard issues such as the warped lid that means it does not close properly (this is not a fault according to Apple) and the nice silver plastic wrist rest that rubs off with time.


Don't get me wrong, I doubt I will go back, I love using OSX and the Mac's do look great but please please please stop going on about this "it just works" rubbish and this "Apple experience". This may well have been the case 5 years ago (and I believe it was) but it certainly is not the case today. Now that Apple are a toy company instead of a computer company I think this will always be the case.

I am not saying they are worse than any other PC manufacturer but the way people talk on here they are some kind of computer god! Just not the case I am afraid.
post #106 of 236
Quote:
I know there's been tons of disagreement on this thread, but at least Psystar has shown us just how cheap Apple computers COULD be, if Apple didn't lock us into buying their hardware and paying for their advertising, product placement and 5th Avenue flagship stores...

You dont understand, Apple is a HARDWARE company, the sell softwares also but they originated as a hardware company.

Seriously, would you think Apple could survive if they are selling Leopard right now at the price you are paying for? If Apple never sell hardwares, Leopard would be like Vista (with different packages and stuffs).

For you info, a user posted that Psycrap uses cheap materials for its casing. Yeah, the whole world know that Apple is overpricing their hardwares but part of the income they get from their hardwares goes to the development of OS X.

Seriously, people need to understand about they are paying premium for Mac because its to develop the next OS X R&D.

FYI, Google for hackintosh and you will find that Psystar is evil by selling other peoples work!. And they are to the public by giving false info. You cant really expand or upgrade your hackintosh unless there are drivers or (.kext) developed for it.
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post #107 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

That's like saying Honda has a monopoly on Accords.

No, it is not. Accords are not unique enough of a line to be considered a separate market on their own. But, even if they were, would you accept an edict from Honda saying you could not buy a Honda engine and stick it in your Kia? Sure, there is a thriving after market for Honda owners. And if Honda tried to block sales of third party parts on their cars through some sort of EULA, that would not stand up in court.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, it's called a market segment of which the Macintosh belongs...and Windows still holds what? 90+% share?

And MS has what percent within the overall, worldwide computer market, including mainframes, PDAs, Smart phones, embedded systems etc. Clearly, if you take a segment of this overall market, let's say desktop PC's, they are the monopoly player.

And within the Macintosh ecosystem, which is clearly a distinct and separate segment within the overall PC market, Apple owns the entire market.

Additional:
Actually, just saw a quote from a guy at Psystar
"What if Honda said that, after you buy their car, you could only drive it on the roads they said you could?"

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #108 of 236
I don't know.

I get the feeling that apple would have produced a tower form factor by now if they wanted to. There must be a specific reason why they haven't.

Maybe they are afraid that people would only ever buy the cheapest mac that was user modifiable. I know that I probably would even though I really like the neatness and minimal design of the current iMac.

Maybe they are trying the make computing more about what happens on the screen and less about what happens inside the case.

Steve makes alot of good calls. It would be hard to think this is simply something he has not considered.
post #109 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ros3ntan View Post

the answer is simple, Apple simply not interested in the market you are describing. If its big big enough and Apple has the resource, why wouldnt they do it? I dont think they are that stupid to ignore a "large market" if they think its a large market.

QFT.

iMac is cheaper and comes with a display.
Vast majority of customers do not care about "upgrades."
Vast majority do not want to futz with cables.
Vast majority do not even know what a video card IS.

The "$999 xMac" wouldn't sell as it does not come with a display.

The "$1500 xMac" wouldn't sell as the iMac is cheaper and DOES come with a display.

Put them side-by-side in the Apple Stores and the customer will buy the iMac the vast majority of the time. A big heavy tower, connecting cables, increased footprint, and no display far outweigh the "advantage" of "upgrading the video card" to the customer.
--Johnny
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--Johnny
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post #110 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

Market share is simply the percentage of a given market total sales revenue that one company takes in a given period of time. The computing market has taken a downward turn lately and Apple, historically, tends to move units more consistently even during market downturns.

I have never mentioned market share. I am simply talking about sales... and the growth in sales. The computing market has NOT taken a downturn recently. Sales GROWTH has slowed.

The PC market has been growing for 30 years! I see no evidence of any previous downturn nor any of Apple sales remaining consistent during a ... 'downturn'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

Therefore, I think you can see how much Apple's recent "gains" have been exaggerated. I don't deny that Apple is getting more popular, but if there are less people buying, it's easier for a company to have larger slice of the pie, relatively speaking.

Nobody is exaggerating anything. There are not "less people buying". The whole pie is still getting LARGER. There is nothing "easier" in obtaining a larger slice.

Wow! I understand why you don't like bringing market share into the conversation. You don't seem to understand the basics behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

It doesn't mean Apple has doubled or tripled their sales.

Actually that is exactly what it does mean. Apple sales have increased by 122% in the last three years. For comparison... the PC has grown around 46%

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

I think this mid-range Mac clone has generated a lot of interest because it's something Apple, bizarrely enough, lacks.

A quick scan of the tech web tells me that the main topics of conversation are that this is an un-sanctioned clone and the possible legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

I try to avoid pointing out the obvious, but you either need it pointed out or are simply refusing to acknowledge it, perhaps realizing that it simply blows your argument away. Here's a fact: the tower computer is the single biggest selling type of computer on the market. Period.

I feel that what you are pointing out is far from obvious. In the USA and the other mature PC markets laptops are expected to outsell desktops sometime this year. Look Ink let's get one thing straight .... I agree with you ..... in the sense that between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro there is a a big gap for a desktop Mac... without a screen. However I agree with "ros3ntan" that Apple has decided not to fill that void for business reasons and not through some glaring omission on their part.

I am pretty sure that the guys at Apple have access to a whole lot more industry figures than anyone here has. My guess is that, even though there is a market for your midi- tower, it is smaller than you think and (despite an overall growth in PC sales) is the one area that really is getting smaller.

Many people (business, education and consumers) are choosing laptops over desktops.
Apple has the tower 'workstation' market covered
The millions of midi-towers sitting in corporate cubicles is a market that Apple doesn't play in.
The iMac AIO is selling well.
So well that HP, Dell, Gateway and Sony sell similar systems.
The Mac Mini covers the low end user. (ie with less requirements than you)
If Apple built and sold the computer that you want how much would that cannibalise it's other systems?

Back to the pies! You are wrong. The whole PC pie is getting larger.... however the midi-tower slice of the pie is not.... in fact most of the evidence points to it shrinking.

This is making me rather hungry!
post #111 of 236
Quote:
iMac is cheaper and comes with a display.
Vast majority of customers do not care about "upgrades."
Vast majority do not want to futz with cables.
Vast majority do not even know what a video card IS.

The "$999 xMac" wouldn't sell as it does not come with a display.

The "$1500 xMac" wouldn't sell as the iMac is cheaper and DOES come with a display.

Put them side-by-side in the Apple Stores and the customer will buy the iMac the vast majority of the time. A big heavy tower, connecting cables, increased footprint, and no display far outweigh the "advantage" of "upgrading the video card" to the customer.

You got that right, besides the average consumer wont buy an Apple if it has too many wires (MacPro not included because its not your average consumer kind of machine)
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post #112 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

I don't know.

I get the feeling that apple would have produced a tower form factor by now if they wanted to. There must be a specific reason why they haven't.

Maybe they are afraid that people would only ever buy the cheapest mac that was user modifiable. I know that I probably would even though I really like the neatness and minimal design of the current iMac.

Maybe they are trying the make computing more about what happens on the screen and less about what happens inside the case.

Steve makes alot of good calls. It would be hard to think this is simply something he has not considered.

If I was to guess, it would be because it would eat into the heavy margins on the iMac and MacPro. You are right, many people would go for a system with the features/power of the iMac with the form of a tower. But, if you don't have the choice, you will go with what fits next best. I don't need another monitor, so an iMac is not for me for now. I think the mini is way to under featured and underpowered for my needs. And the MacPro...well, I don't want to sell a kidney to buy one, so I won't. Where does that leave me? I have my MBP and won't need a new system too soon, but if I was looking for a desktop, I would probably end up with the iMac. I wouldn't like that it isn't really upgradable and that I would not be able to choose the monitor on my own, but it would be the best fit if I want a desktop Mac.

Part of the reason Steve was able to turn Apple around was by limiting choice of systems. While they have eased up on this and introduced models to fit new niches, they have not and probably will not risk eating into the iMac and MacPro sale by adding a unit that fits between the two lines. This is a good decision on the one hand, as it keeps sales high on those two lines, but it is a bad decision as far as giving customers options.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #113 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflorida View Post

Didn't any of you (except Benton) bother to check just who "Psystar" is?

Being from the area, I instantly recognized that this address is smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood in Kendall, complete with swimming pool in his backyard. There is not a commercial piece of property with a mile.

Indeed, the company was just incorporated in July of 2007, does not even have an FEI number, has never filed a corporate report with the State of Florida-- this really looks like a top notch corporate operation, doesn't it?

You all send in your money and let us know how things work out, okay?

Hey-- but he only charges $45.00 for one hour of on-site computer service: what a deal.....

But remember, if it looks like a duck, has web feet, walks like a duck, and quacks-- it probably is a duck! I believe that this is exactly what it looks like... be sure to look yourself before getting all excited.

The days of a guy in his garage making mainstream computers is long gone people!

Have to agree with this one. Looking up that address on google maps leads you to a residential area with swimming pools. It is possible they are planning on making a quick profit before Apple sends them a legal order to stop. Leaving the unsupported buyers to fend for themselves on maintenance and compatibility issues.
post #114 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

No, it is not. Accords are not unique enough of a line to be considered a separate market on their own. But, even if they were, would you accept an edict from Honda saying you could not buy a Honda engine and stick it in your Kia?

It IS their engine. If the contract says "you can buy this engine but you aren't allowed to stick in a Kia" then you either don't buy the engine or don't stick it in a Kia.

Quote:
And MS has what percent within the overall, worldwide computer market, including mainframes, PDAs, Smart phones, embedded systems etc. Clearly, if you take a segment of this overall market, let's say desktop PC's, they are the monopoly player.

And within the Macintosh ecosystem, which is clearly a distinct and separate segment within the overall PC market, Apple owns the entire market.

So HP had a "monopoly" on HPUX or IBM had a monopoly on AIX or maybe they, like Apple, belong to the Unix market? OSX is a Unix with a world class desktop UI. None of these companies had a monopoly lock on Unix and they used to regularly lock their OS to their hardware and control their "ecosystem".

No. While Apple might be a monopoly with iPods they don't with Macs.
post #115 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Does anyone know of any instances of a company actually suing for breach of EULA? I know that all of the recent piracy lawsuits have involved copyright law exclusively and not breach of EULA...

Yes, Blizzard sued to enforce their EULA at least twice. EULAs are enforcable and they have been court tested in major juristiction and found to be valid contracts. There are limits though and some caveats on how they are to be presented, etc.
post #116 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak
So you bought an extended replacement warranty and used it. I suppose such things don't exist on other PCs? As much as I like OS X, it's hardly perfect. Especially Leopard, which many consider to be an awful upgrade that has caused an enormous number of problems. It hasn't been called Apple's version of Vista for nothing.

Since 10.5.1 I never had a single crash on my 18 months old iMac. Leopard is not perfect, but its the best out there. My iMac was repaired at an Authorized Apple Service Provider, so I didn't have to ship it anywhere. The technician called me and said that the LB need to be replaced and that the part need at least 3 weeks to arrive. I really needed to use my computer for my research so he suggested I call Apple and they can help. I called Apple care and explained that I need my computer ASAP. Three days later the technician called and said that my iMac is ready, the whole thing took less than a week. Try to do that with a Dell or HP.
post #117 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

It IS their engine. If the contract says "you can buy this engine but you aren't allowed to stick in a Kia" then you either don't buy the engine or don't stick it in a Kia.

I am pretty sure there are laws, many of them special to the auto industry, that disallow this sort of practice.

Around the time of the early 1900's, books and recordings had their versions of EULAs, which were nullified by law.
post #118 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

It IS their engine. If the contract says "you can buy this engine but you aren't allowed to stick in a Kia" then you either don't buy the engine or don't stick it in a Kia.

No, it is my engine, once I purchase it. I am sorry, but I have to take issue when someone tells me what I can do with my own property. Especially a business. Maybe that is just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post


No. While Apple might be a monopoly with iPods they don't with Macs.

You know of another company that sells Macs or MacOSX compatible hardware? By definition, they are a monopoly within the mac market. This does not make them an illegal monopoly, and that is an important distinction. What might make them an illegal monopoly, is if they used their monopoly to protect their market share and prevent competition. This what their prohibiting OSX on other hardware could be interpreted as.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #119 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

No, it is my engine, once I purchase it. I am sorry, but I have to take issue when someone tells me what I can do with my own property. Especially a business. Maybe that is just me.


You know of another company that sells Macs or MacOSX compatible hardware? By definition, they are a monopoly within the mac market. This does not make them an illegal monopoly, and that is an important distinction. What might make them an illegal monopoly, is if they used their monopoly to protect their market share and prevent competition. This what their prohibiting OSX on other hardware could be interpreted as.

It is not your property because when you go to use the software for the first time you have to agree to the terms (remember that little button?) of use. By clicking, Apple has you in a contract of their wording.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #120 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psystar View Post

Can I run updates on my Open Computer?
The answer is yes and no. No because there are some updates that are decidedly non-safe. Yes because most updates are not non-safe. It's best to check on InsanelyMac for this information but when in doubt don't update it. You may have to reinstall your OS X if it is a non-safe update.

Um, no thanks.
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