NBC's iTunes return may hinge on offline piracy filtering - Page 2

I think ars technica is jumping to conclusions - none of the quotes from NBC brass say anything about limiting ipod playback. I don't know where they got that idea, but there's nothing from NBC statements to support it.

They talk about piracy and being a gatekeeper. People watching pirated content on iPods are watching torrents, not pirated iTunes purchases.

I've always found it funny that NBC backed out of iTunes over pricing, yet they offered the episodes for FREE on their website.....

Hello? NBC? Are you there? If people were willing to pay $1.99 per episode and more for a whole season pass, why would you stop that revenue and rely totally on FREE content.

Looks like someone was trying to take the WHOLE cookie jar, were caught, got their hand slapped, jar taken from them, they went and pouted in the corner, spouted off to mom and dad that they were going to go make their own cookies, found out that they were too stupid and didn't even know how to turn on the oven, and now are coming back to the parents asking if they can grab a cookie from the jar but only if the parents control what cookies go in the jar and how many they [the kid] can take out.

NBC.... You'll put your shows back on iTunes, like it, sit there and shut up. Oh, and also pray that someone out there is stupid enough to hire this clown that you have put your trust in.

While it's free to the customer, NBC still makes money from advertisements (which can't be skipped). Who knows if they're making $1.99 per view, but they're definitely not giving the views away for free, any more than they do with broadcast TV.

Aside from the encryption issue, BluRay players seem to need to be updated regularly to keep up with the changes for the new movies. Every time they find out someone has broken the key, they change something. I'm not planning to buy BluRay until they sort this out. The BluRay players are special purpose computers that need regular updating via the net. Just what you need!

Dunno where they got that idea. At least it's not in the quoted text from George Kliavkoff.


Dunno where you got the idea they want to use non-Apple software.


Not if Apple would read other types of DRM (WMA) and implement DRM on all content in iTunes library. If no DRM is present, it wouldn't be allowed to go onto the iPod (at least via iTunes or something in the OS.)

Of course, you and I know that if Apple does that, the amount of purchases will immediately drop to be just as low as everybody else's.
As I read the article, it's about ALL content, not only iTunes purchases.
If someone RIP'd their own CD or had torrent files with no DRM, you couldn't transfer/use to the iPod/iTunes.
Very much Big Brother/1984.

Is that the sound of crickets chirping I hear coming from 1 Infinite Loop? Silence would be the best way to rub NBC's nose in it.

DUMMY, of course it is!!! They have some of the best TV shows on the air and, not I becuase I watch them on TV after they have been recorded by my DVR, but my friend never watches TV, downloads all of his TV shows via torrent, converts them for his Apple TV and iPod, takes those TV shows everywhere with him.

The studios are so desperate for an alternative to Apple and iTunes that they will go to almost any length to arrive at an irrational decision which prevents adding both revenue and profit to their income statement. Is it really any surprise the GE's entertainment unit (NBC/Universal) was once again one the the under-performers in last quarter's results?

Who cares. I don't watch NBC broadcasts. I see little reason to care if I can put them on an iPod. It's been years since I heard of an NBC program that I'd want to watch.

No surprise and it has been going on for quite a while. Unfortunately the current quarter debacle
was more about the failure of the much larger financial services component, so the poor
performance of the entertainment unit may escape notice (relatively).

Wasn't there a similar commotion after Steves open letter about dropping DRM ? ie studios say "that will never happen" ,"are you mad?" etc. and then Amazon opened

lots of arm flapping and looking at where the milk has dried on the floor.

I agree with the above post that Apple response should be total silence.

Or maybe an announcement of a great new deal with another media company

I think Apple and iTunes is just fine without NBC/Universal, and the reality is that NBC needs Apple more than Apple needs NBC/Universal. Apple will never, ever go for this. They do not like being dictated to. Never mind that Apple's public stance has been LESS DRM not more. I know that I would dump iTunes in a New York minute if they instituted this scheme.

On another note while they seem to grasp the economics of pricing and market place. They do have a point, but unfortunately they will probably have a price floor that overprices their less popular content and overprice their popular content (does CD from an artist 40+ years ago need to cost $18?). But they obviously don't get the fact that some people will download content if it is free or near free but wouldn't pay for it anywhere what they think it is worth. The point being is that not every "pirate" download constitutes $$$. The problem is with people that WOULD pay for it and downloads it for nothing. But in my experience the people that will pay for it do through places like iTunes, and those that don't want to pay for it under no circumstances WON'T.

NBC/Universal needs to get a grip and realize that if anything they are hurting themselves. And their posturing will get them nowhere.

I believe Steve Jobs wants to define the next generation of television, just as he has been doing successfully with music. He made it simple in both technology and pricing - people started thinking differently about their music - not that the music companies have fully understood, and not that the step he made is the be-all and end-all of music (I suspect it'll take another generational step shortly).

Video has been much harder - iPod with video was a great start, but the AppleTV has stumbled. The content deals he pushed through with music haven't gone as well as they could have, partially because the networks want to retain complete control over their content.

(Unfortunately, even my wording of "retain control" shows my belief that they had control before.. perhaps they didn't. The amount of money they make on a show via FTA is directly related to how many people watch the show (ie the ratings of the show) and thus how much advertisers will pay for commercials in the show. At $2 per show on iTunes, the network still receives payment that's directly related to how many people watch the show.)

Steve Jobs is trying to balance several contradictory extremes of goals, and probably intends that in the end the networks make the same money as they did before. The networks want more money, not the same - and they probably don't really understand that holding onto their current systems is leading to less money (as users increasingly skip ads or download).

Although Apple is trying to create a viable economic model for TV programs, after the reactions of the networks I'd be surprised if Steve wasn't wondering whether they should just let iTunes (and iPods and AppleTV) take any and all formats available without negotiations and just focus on selling hardware -ie: record FTA (with ad skipping) and play any avi's.

Apple is not the problem, it's a solution to the problem.

Yes, interesting idea. Perhaps Apple needs to shake things up a bit more.

As I have in another thread... I'd suggest the following :-)

Apple announces that EVERY ABC TV show is now available on iTunes, and viewers have 3 choices for how they get it
1) buy it for $1.99
2) rent it for 80c (1 day)
3) watch it with 2 commercials per ad-break (instead of 8 or more!)
(ads can not be skipped, and are customised to the viewers location and interests).

ABC knows how much they earn per viewer now via advertising. So they need to make the same $$$ via #2 or via advertising in #3 above. Ads are worth MUCH more if there are fewer, better customised, and prevent skipping. (Part of their earnings from #2 or #3 would have to be redistributed to local ABC channels).

Even if you have a PVR already, would the above be appealing to you?

Clearly Apple is trusted by NBC to govern what we can have on our hard drives, lets have them put their money where their mouths are and start endorsing Steve Jobs for president and the Apple board for the Cabinet! Clearly NBC would be happier if Apple were big brother to all of us, let's make it official. Problem is, once Steve became president the first thing he would do is change the law to let everyone have access to any digital file at any time for a very reasonable fee, with a small tax thrown in to balance the Federal Budget. Now paying for Iraq, that's harder, we should sell it to the Chinese...

Como Dice "Fuck no"

I can't believe NBC has people in charge of their on-line strategy who are this clueless. I'd be embarrassed as a company to have someone on my digital team this stupid.

I feel badly for Apple who has to conduct negotiations with these guys.

Apple: At $1.99 retail, your cut will be $1.50 per download.
NBC: Does that come with a Llama? Will it be purple?
Apple: <sigh>

hehehe

Yes. Coming from the same marketing people who think "if we double the speed of the credits we can fit an extra ad in the middle of the show".

Not even close.

It seems he suggests that all video is protected under licence agreements, if it isn't "home videos"... which is probably almost true most of the cases. Therefore he assumes that if a video without DRM is added to the library it's most sertainly pirated and should be reported. After all there is no official DVD/movie licence agreement that gives the user the right to convert its legally prchased DVD/movie into another format (which is crap anyway). And this is why Apple is working with including iTunes-friendly versions on the DVD's.. He's just whining. Such an approach wouldn't be good for anyone.
I remember Steve jobs' words when he introduced the iTunes store: "We want to compete with the pirates." Thats a much more healthy stance.

Where's the license agreement for CDs that allows people to convert their music into a different format? I doubt Apple would distribute iTunes with CD ripping, tagging and album art feature if it were even the slightest bit gray. If it weren't for the DMCA (in the US anyway), the same would probably be true of movies too.

Audio Home Recording Act of 1992

Exactly! What the freaking hell is this idiot talking about? I think the NBC exec just doesn't want to look like he is crawling back to Apple and begging. He should just shut the hell up and just say that he wants to get back in on itunes like the dumb baby he with hat in hand to Steve Jobs N company. itunes piracy......ORLY?? Pleaseeeeeeeeee!

What a complete wanker. More of the same BS we've been hearing for the last 10 years. They need to wake up, the world is not the same as it was when the big labels and studios controlled most of the content distribution. What they need is not yet another DRM and other restrictions for content playback but to take their heads out of their a$$es and innovate! Better yet, retire the old guard losers and replace them with more capable/innovative executives.

I thought George Bush, Jr was nominated for that already?

I think you find he is the current holder of the title

Has anyone bothered to email this thread to NBC (Nuthing But Clowns) to let them see how truly stupid their ideas are?

The best antidote to piracy is to make legally buying the thing easier. iTunes is the best at this because the store is built right in to the Jukebox. So ITunes already has the best anti piracy measure.

woof woof - ignore the barking dog

Gandalf the semi-coherent said: "No, Mr. Kliavkoff, the market will determine the full value of the product. Not you. And the market has spoken. $1.99 is fair. Anything more is pure greed. And pure greed on the part of content providers is one of the reasons for piracy. Price it fairly and we'll gladly pay. Try to fleece us and we'll find other options."

nothing more to add.

Folks - we don't need someone to tell us we've done something illegal.

We don't need someone looking over our shoulders.

Helll, at the prices for music and videos from iTunes, I'm sure the amount of illegal downloads has gone down.

The folks that are still doing this, are likely to be youngsters or folks who can't afford .99 (Not many folks)

Your likely to find a lot of the music on iPods (and other MP3 players) is music that someone had, but couldn't download somewhere (old or hard to get).

Is there illegal music out there … helll yes! Is it has bad as folks make it out to be, I don't think so. I think you'll find most people have a movie or 2 that they didn't pay for, because it isn't out yet, or it's not available for $1.99 yet.

What's done is done… let's Grandfather all past actions, and get more content available sooner at $1.99 and let's not give folks a reason to want / have to get it illegally.

I sure in helll don't know how the itunes / NBC police are going to round up all of the folks who may have something illegal on their iPods / MP3 players. Helll "I didn't put it on there" "I didn't even know it was on there" "It must have been put on by one of my MANY friends I let use my iPod / MP3 player. "I don't watch that pieces of shiiit show and wouldn't have in on my iPod (if I would have know it was on it, I would have trashed it myself)"

There will be a ton of excuses from folks on this.

- Ok, so I purchase a friends iPod, (who purchased it from someone else) - so go get those people?

Are they going to put some kind of GPS system so they can track us down …

I mean the more I write, the more pissed I get.

NBC … just get over your self, come back crawling. Folks will soon forget and your stock holders will be happy again.

Skip

PS Shiit, Big Brother reads this list … I'm doomed

Not really. What if I record a TV show off the air and then convert it to my iPod. That's perfectly legal. I can also transfer it any of my own iPods I wish.

Now, what if I give that same show to a friend - which is probably illegal.

How does iTunes tell the difference?


Not true. Any video you record off the air can be transferred to your iPod legally - under the old VCR recording rules. As long as you use it for your own personal use, they can't restrict you from doing it.

I would be one user who fits your model ... 40 GIGS of my Own CDs, all purchased from stores over many years and probably 10 albums bought from iTunes.

That and history will no doubt add a few more, ... hell, a load more!

What gets me is that this guy is so proud to make an ass of himself in public, and no one tried to stop him before he opened his mout.

If there was just a device that could filter the things we say before we say them. Damn there have to be such a device.

It would be pretty easy; the owner of the video could submit a request to block a video (from bit torrent or where ever) and iTunes could serve up an MD5 (or equivalent fingerprint) of the video to block. Apple would be in the dubious position to somehow validate the claim of ownership, but that would not be too hard for most of the stuff that NBC wants to block.

Edit: Please don't flame me. This approach will only handle the bit torrent stuff (since it is the same bit stream for everyone receiving it). It would not stop people from locally digitizing the content, since that would not result in the same file each time.

It would be relatively easy to do; the question is whether Apple wants to be the digital content cop or not?!?!

if you don't sell your videos on iTunes, where do you think people will get them? oh yeah, they'll pirate it, or get it on their tivos where they'll skip commercials and still not pay for content.

i don't understand why they don't seem to think apple's DRM is good enough.

i also don't understand why nbc wants iTunes to police their library for pirated songs. are they serious? that would render iTunes into a useless application!! 99% of everyone with itunes has pirated songs. PEOPLE PIRATE MUSIC AND MOVIES BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFICULT TO GET DIGITALLY! people WANT to buy movies online, but it's too difficult (usually impossible) to even burn them to a DVD, put them on whatever device they want, or even play them on a TV.

i'm so glad steve doesn't bow to these idiots. he doesn't need their business, but NBC does need apple's business. they are stuck in the past. apple knows where the market is heading, and our media companies are just CLUELESS.

How about the Betamax case in the late 70's? That doesn't cover DVDs now, but it's trivial to make personal recordings of unencrypted TV, meaning that maybe not all non-itunes video is pirated. The same can go for home movies.