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France's Orange may be next to cut iPhone price, eat losses - reports - Page 6

post #201 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

For the most part once the 18 month contract is up they are free to take the phone were ever they want.

Are you having a hard time understanding the difference between being forced to take and not wanting a time based subscription? You seem to be struggling with this.


Quote:
Apple doesn't need to support Outlook. They have their own email client. Apple has basically said why they wouldn't directly support BlackBerry.

Too bad most business have failed to jump on the Apple bandwagon with their mail support but right now much of the world uses Exchange. If Apple is too stupid to see this, so be it. It just goes to prove what others in this thread have said about Jobs (he who must not be named or made eye contact with) and his "I am right all the time" attitude.

[Quote]Its not fair to compare Nokia and Apple in that way. Nokia has been selling phones for nearly 30 years, while Apple is just in its first year. [/Quote}

This means they had 30 years of experience to look at and still missed the mark. Sort to makes them look either very stupid or very arrogant. The truth is somewhere in between.

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Apple was not interested in simply stuffing lots of features into a phone. They want to take their time and grow the platform with features and apps that are of high quality, easy to use, and visually pleasing.

We are going into Tangentville here. I did not once say what was there is not pleasant or nice eye candy. My comments have to do with telephony features.

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Yes you can, this feature was added in firmware 1.1.3.

You are correct. I have been using another client and did not even bother to check this. Thanks for the tip. Only took 3 or 4 upgrades to do something basic but okay. It is a start. I stand corrected.

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How is the iPhone a work phone? You call it crippled non-enterprise phone that sits in a drawer.

In my current capacity with State, I do not need to make VoIP calls (I have an unlimited plan here in Finland and use my N82 for the heavy lifting) or send multiple SMS to co-workers. For the most part, I just make and receive calls. I do use the iPod function much, much more.

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This is your definition of a smartphone.

This one of many definitions of a smartphone. If you read the article I posted, you will notice that there is no fast and furious definition. I guess it would be subjective at best.

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You like to rant about how Americans don't understand Europeans. You sure feel comfortable being an American making defining statements about a content with 50 countries and over 700 million people.

I would say my multiple years of living in several countries for several years gives me a better understanding of different cultures than most Americans for sure.

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You don't have to take my word for it. You only simply have look at the picture. Or in your case take your iPhone out of the drawer and use it. You will clearly see their are 16 other apps than the iPod.

These are webapps. Not native. Meaning what? I have to constantly be connected to some sort of data access. I want native apps and yes they are coming, and in most cases they are here thanks to 3rd party developers.

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There are also over 1400 web apps and services built specifically for the iPhone. This list is growing by 100 a month.

See above....

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O2 has said the iPhone is the most used device on their data network even to the point of straining their network. Looking at how the iPhone has taken a good chunk of the Europaen internet marketshare. This is solid proof that Europeans use the iPhone for more than an iPod.

Sorry if I do not buy the O2 story. They have probably the worse network in Europe. The worse coverage. Many of those same O2 customers have an additional phone as well. There was an article on ilounge.com that mentioned this. (Not exactly sure if it was iLounge, but this was noted a few weeks ago.)

Quote:
I was speaking of HTML 5 features that will be coming to Safari. You said the N82 already does that. Is that just your default answer for everything?

I did acknowledge that I fired off a general answer. Was that not good enough? My default answer for the iPhone is that it is more iPod than phone. Feel free to insert this whenever and where ever you need.

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Part of this is your impatience. Apple has said from the beginning they would continuously add features to the phone. And they have.

Part of this is my right as a paying customer. I can do whatever I want with my phone. Second, each statement you exhibit further illustrates that this is your first "high-end" phone. Well, for me, my days go back to the first Nokia Communicator, the Ericsson R380, and so on. I am used to having more than just a pretty UI.

Quote:
Apple has created and is improving a web based development for the iPhone. The results are nearly 1500 web based applications and services. Something that no other phone manufacturer has done.

If you play golf, I will give you a Mulligan. You really should have thought this one out. No other phone manufacture has to. All of their apps are native to the phone. Symbian have probably 3k or 4k apps already that work pretty darn well. You are correct Sir, no other phone manufacture had to because the apps could be installed on the phone.

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Apple is building a 3rd party platform based on desktop API infrastructure. This is something that no other phone manufacturer has done. Apple has said that this is a lot of work and they want to insure everything is right because they will be stuck with these API's for a long time.

See above again........


Quote:
What the iPhone can or cannot do is a fact, yes. Which of these features are most useful is the subjective part. You confuse the two.

Who is confused is also subjective. In my mind, you are simply one of the koolaid drinkers that is not really knowledgeable about usable feature packed phones. I think the word I used was unsophisticated. Who knows. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.

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You describe yourself a power user huh? Most of the power users I've seen who really need to send multiple texts are 13 year olds.

I think you just answered my question. Oh well tomorrow is a new day and with that comes new adventures.

Just so that we are on the same sheet of music. Where is this eventually going to go? What is the end game. We are going round and round. I have my opinion and you have yours. Fair enough. I have my feelings about the iPhone. You can't change that as your arguments are not strong enough, and I can't change your mind as well. Same with my arguments.
post #202 of 305
Quote:
Are you having a hard time understanding the difference between being forced to take and not wanting a time based subscription? You seem to be struggling with this.

Actually I'm confused as to what you are responding to and have no idea of what you are talking about.


Quote:
Too bad most business have failed to jump on the Apple bandwagon with their mail support but right now much of the world uses Exchange. If Apple is too stupid to see this, so be it. It just goes to prove what others in this thread have said about Jobs (he who must not be named or made eye contact with) and his "I am right all the time" attitude.

I think you are confused. Outlook and Exchange are completely different. You don't need Outlook to use Exchange. Apple has licensed ActiceSync so that Apple Mail will sync with Exchange.
post #203 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I think you are confused. Outlook and Exchange are completely different. You don't need Outlook to use Exchange. Apple has licensed ActiceSync so that Apple Mail will sync with Exchange.


Thank you. I meant Exchange support.

How about this, if you have nothing really more to add to this, we can drop it. I have to concentrate on finishing something for tomorrow but I do not like to suddenly disappear from a discussion like so many around here do when they aren't making any points. I think we summed it up. You have your opinion and I have mine. While we both my come from the US, we have different world views. I have no idea about your travel history, but I have been all over the world and have experiences to back up my opinions. With that being said, the ball is in your court.
post #204 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Okay, here goes. Did I say that these were not good features? I was/am/wil be talking about telephony features



Tradeoffs? Really? Do you honestly have any experience with a high-end phone? I ask this seriously. These so called "rudimentary" features are basic in all devices sans the iPhone in all devices that claim to be phones. These tradeoffs are all software driven, minus the camera so your argument is baseless.

These other phones trade battery life, size or complexity for their features. The iPhone was designed as mobile computing device that anyone, even "just a phone" types, can use.

For some reason enthusiasts seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge this fundamental point. Features are useful if you can't figure out how to use them. The iPhone is being purchased in part, in my experience, by people that would have never considered such a device, had the iPhone not been available. IMO there is still vast upside in the iPhone market, almost entirely because of this. Civilians discovering that it's really not that hard to do the web and email and conference calling and media, etc.


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You can have them now if you do not mind jailbreaking you phone.

OK

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The "rudimentary" features are missing from the iPod Touch as well, but it is designed as an iPod, not a phone, so my argument still stands. Until the iPhone can perform: 1-4, and 6-7, it will remain an iPod with some phoning capabilities.

No, it is marketed as an iPod, because that suits Apple's channel strategy. It's designed as a mobile computing device, just like the iPhone, sans telephony features.

Why are you so obsessed with the iPod part of these devices? You know full well what else they're capable of. It seems like you just want to use the "just an iPod" as a cheap dismissal, but it really doesn't make any sense.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #205 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Why are you so obsessed with the iPod part of these devices?

My obsession is based solely on the telephony aspect of the iPhone. The media playing and computing features are great. No real complaints there. My concerns deal with only the telephony side of the iPhone as well as some missing biz features. A few weeks back, everyone was saying the iPhone is ripe for biz users. This is a crock of crap. The iPhone is far from a biz phone.
post #206 of 305
Quote:
I think we summed it up. You have your opinion and I have mine. While we both my come from the US, we have different world views. I have no idea about your travel history, but I have been all over the world and have experiences to back up my opinions. With that being said, the ball is in your court.

Sure we can agree to disagree. I don't think the iPhone is necessarily for everyone. Its good we have choices.

I imagine I may not be as well travelled as you. But I don't think that makes much difference. We have open access to surveys and sale performances. That more clearly show what phones and features most people use. The reality often does not coincide with what people think.

I'll try to find it again. But there was a recent survey that found few people in Japan commonly use those advanced phone features that are so much touted.


Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme. You completely downplay the advantages and accomplishments of the iPhone. And over play the functions it doesn't currently do. Even functions that most people would never use in a consumer device.
post #207 of 305
Quote:
My concerns deal with only the telephony side of the iPhone as well as some missing biz features. A few weeks back, everyone was saying the iPhone is ripe for biz users. This is a crock of crap. The iPhone is far from a biz phone.

Here is an example of your unreasonable bias.

At this point we know Apple is developing the iPhone for business. We don't yet completely know all of the details. It very well may be a strong competitor to the Black Berry.
post #208 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Sure we can agree to disagree. I don't think the iPhone is necessarily for everyone. Its good we have choices.

I imagine I may not be as well travelled as you. But I don't think that makes much difference. We have open access to surveys and sale performances. That more clearly show what phones and features most people use. The reality often does not coincide with what people think.

I'll try to find it again. But there was a recent survey that found few people in Japan commonly use those advanced phone features that are so much touted.


Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme. You completely downplay the advantages and accomplishments of the iPhone. And over play the functions it doesn't currently do. Even functions that most people would never use in a consumer device.

Let's throw out the travel, the passports, etc...... Let's just go on personal experience. Based on your posts, it seems as though the iPhone is your first really high-end phone. However, for me it isn't. I was one of the first users of the Nokia Communicator. I had the Ericsson R-380, the SE P-series phones, with various types in between. So to be honest, the iPhone is not overwhelming to me. It represents a more natural evolution than revolution. Sure the iPhone will be developed for the biz market, but as it currently stands, the iPhone is lacking, in terms of biz features, and in terms of most telephony features. This is a fact that you either do not want to admit because it would diminsh the iPhone in your eyes or you simply have not had enough experience with other products to make an informed comparison.

In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree. For the most part, I am okay with the iPhone. I use mine from time to time. In fact on the way in to work, I used it. I even bought a pair of Shure ES 530 heaphones that I use only with it, so I have made an investment. When used as a media device rather than a phone, I find very few devices that can match it for easy of use. I hope this clears things up.
post #209 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Here is an example of your unreasonable bias.

At this point we know Apple is developing the iPhone for business. We don't yet completely know all of the details. It very well may be a strong competitor to the Black Berry.

Prove me wrong.

The iPhone is not a biz phone. Do you even have an idea of what a biz phone should or should not do?

Go to: www.nokia.co.uk and have a quick look at the E-series phones. These are biz phones. In comparison, the iPhone does not stand a chance.

Not to mention the iPhone does not have the ability to multi-task. Chatting is a big issue and benefit within the biz community but where is this on the iPhone, and what if you close the chat window, the session is lost. On any of the E or N series phones from Nokia, chatting while multi-tasking is possible. Is this still considered too biased or just another useful feature that the iPhone does not have.

Speaking of unreasonable bias, can you point to me one post where you have said anything positive about a non-iPhone competitor? It would appear that in your myopathy, the only good phone in the world comes from Apple, but I know better. I have used plenty and currently compliment my iPhone with one of them.
post #210 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Prove me wrong.

The iPhone is not a biz phone. Do you even have an idea of what a biz phone should or should not do?

Go to: www.nokia.co.uk and have a quick look at the E-series phones. These are biz phones. In comparison, the iPhone does not stand a chance.

Not to mention the iPhone does not have the ability to multi-task. Chatting is a big issue and benefit within the biz community but where is this on the iPhone, and what if you close the chat window, the session is lost. On any of the E or N series phones from Nokia, chatting while multi-tasking is possible. Is this still considered too biased or just another useful feature that the iPhone does not have.

As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.

The 'no multitasking' rule is puzzling but I'd not bet on the next iPhone not having more RAM in it and that rule being relaxed. It's there for the crash test dummies that bought 1.0. It's also possible to work around too with IM apps - just save the session when the app flips off to something else and then restore it picking up new messages from the server when you go back. How that works with your online status I've no idea but it's at least possible to work around the multitasking rule.

We'll see when the new iPhone arrives as to if they've solved that for IM. I'm hoping the next iPhone solves these issues. At the minute I'm using a £59 (unlocked SIM free!) dual VoIP/GSM phone for two of my lines plus my old P910i still. It'd be nice to get back to one device for my three lines, so I really hope they add VoIP too as it would seem impossible with the 'no multitasking' rule that 3rd parties have to stick to.
post #211 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.

Which feature list are we talking about? I am only talking about the current iPhone and currently the iPhone is far from being a biz phone no matter how much the others want it to be. It is simply a great media device with a phone.

Quote:
The 'no multitasking' rule is puzzling but I'd not bet on the next iPhone not having more RAM in it and that rule being relaxed. It's there for the crash test dummies that bought 1.0. It's also possible to work around too with IM apps - just save the session when the app flips off to something else and then restore it picking up new messages from the server when you go back. How that works with your online status I've no idea but it's at least possible to work around the multitasking rule.

Many IM apps have an online and offline mode message delivery system. It might be workable but not very practical in a "real-time" chat environment if someone had to close the window to take a call or even to change a song.

Quote:
We'll see when the new iPhone arrives as to if they've solved that for IM. I'm hoping the next iPhone solves these issues. At the minute I'm using a £59 (unlocked SIM free!) dual VoIP/GSM phone for two of my lines plus my old P910i still. It'd be nice to get back to one device for my three lines, so I really hope they add VoIP too as it would seem impossible with the 'no multitasking' rule that 3rd parties have to stick to.


I had one of those but SE simply could not sort out the software. It was a crash and burn machine for quite a bit.
post #212 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Which feature list are we talking about? I am only talking about the current iPhone and currently the iPhone is far from being a biz phone no matter how much the others want it to be. It is simply a great media device with a phone.

Yep, as I said, I agree with you about the e-series v CURRENT iPhone but the feature list of the v2.0 software already announced pretty much puts it on a par with most of the business phones available.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Many IM apps have an online and offline mode message delivery system. It might be workable but not very practical in a "real-time" chat environment if someone had to close the window to take a call or even to change a song.

But that's not how the iPhone works. If you're in your chat software and it rings, it goes to the phone call and the application is asked to close down politely by the OS itself. The application, if written well, stores it's state and gets out of the way for Apple's own processes to rule. When you go back to the app, it can restore it's saved state so it looks like you never left. At least with some IM server implementations, just quitting the app does not log you off so the iPhone can just reconnect and pick up the missed messages and as long as you're not on your phone call for too long, the other party wouldn't know you're not online except maybe your tardiness in replying. I don't think it's a big deal although I can see how it might be an issue if you're both talking and IMing the same person at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I had one of those but SE simply could not sort out the software. It was a crash and burn machine for quite a bit.

The P910i has been the most reliable and least crash prone phone I've ever come across. I had a P990 for a while and sent it back and reverted back to my P910i. Early SymbianOS 9 phones were terrible as they didn't have enough RAM (ahem Apple) to multitask whereas the older OS7 phones such as the P910i actually had less RAM but used 'Execute-in-place' so that the application ran in the space it was stored in on your flash card instead of having to load it into precious RAM. They dropped that method in OS9. Since the P990, they've added more RAM to most Symbian phones so for instance the P1i got 128MB of RAM (same as the iPhone) so it runs more applications before asking if you want to close one down. Note that there's one nasty exception - the N95. Nokia still only give 64MB of RAM in the N95. After you've got the OS loaded, it leaves you about 15MB of RAM free.

Apple should just stick another 128MB of RAM in the iPhone and kill off the silly no multitasking rule. I think it's a good idea that the OS asks the application to save it's state and quit when a call comes in or when you're running out of RAM like Symbian does, but I think there should still be a way of letting the app decide if it should do as it's told to.
post #213 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme.


Teno, teno, teno... while I've come to like ya, you lovable knucklehead, you are the LAST person who should be calling anyone "biased".

In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.

It is very likely that Sapporo is biased towards his own point of view, but you calling him such is simply the pot calling the kettle black. After all, if bias was an Olympic sport, I'd just hand you the gold medal right now and be done with it.

Now, if you'd just ADMIT to your own bias, you'd be the coolest cat on the block.


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Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
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Thanks for listening to your...
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Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
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post #214 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Teno, teno, teno... while I've come to like ya, you lovable knucklehead, you are the LAST person who should be calling anyone "biased".

In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.

It is very likely that Sapporo is biased towards his own point of view, but you calling him such is simply the pot calling the kettle black. After all, if bias was an Olympic sport, I'd just hand you the gold medal right now and be done with it.

Now, if you'd just ADMIT to your own bias, you'd be the coolest cat on the block.


.

Great post Mr. TBaggins. Right on the mark. If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better. Sorry but in my opinion my N82 simply smokes the iPhone in terms of functionality and what a real smartphone/biz phone should be. As far as the UI is concerned, the iPhone wins hands down, but it all. Underneath, there is nothing really special. It is old has been, recycled technology. Teno's continued clinging to the "you are picking on Apple" argument clearly illustrates that the iPhone is really his first dip into the deep end of the pool. For the most part it is not his fault as the better and more advanced phones have been in Japan and Europe. So when something as flashy as the iPhone comes along, it initially appears impressive but the shine quickly fades when the real product emerges.

Anyway, it was a good discussion with Teno. I have no malice towards him. We just have different views on what constitutes real telephony features.
post #215 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Great post Mr. TBaggins. Right on the mark. If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better. Sorry but in my opinion my N82 simply smokes the iPhone in terms of functionality and what a real smartphone/biz phone should be. As far as the UI is concerned, the iPhone wins hands down, but it all. Underneath, there is nothing really special. It is old has been, recycled technology. Teno's continued clinging to the "you are picking on Apple" argument clearly illustrates that the iPhone is really his first dip into the deep end of the pool. For the most part it is not his fault as the better and more advanced phones have been in Japan and Europe. So when something as flashy as the iPhone comes along, it initially appears impressive but the shine quickly fades when the real product emerges.

Anyway, it was a good discussion with Teno. I have no malice towards him. We just have different views on what constitutes real telephony features.


Well, I can't completely agree with that POV either. While touchscreen phones have been in existence prior to the iPhone, the iPhone's multitouch UI is definitely a step ahead of anything that's come before. Ditto mobile Safari over competing mobile browsers. And, the damn thing runs OS X. All very good things.

What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.

The iPhone WILL be great, but right now, just seems so very much "a work in progress". I'm sure I'll be feeling a lot better about things come late June.





LOOK! Over there! THERE'S the missing iPhone features!!!



.
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
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Thanks for listening to your...
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Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
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post #216 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Well, I can't completely agree with that POV either. While touchscreen phones have been in existence prior to the iPhone, the iPhone's multitouch UI is definitely a step ahead of anything that's come before. Ditto mobile Safari over competing mobile browsers. And, the damn thing runs OS X. All very good things.

What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.

The iPhone WILL be great, but right now, just seems so very much "a work in progress". I'm sure I'll be feeling a lot better about things come late June.





LOOK! Over there! THERE'S the missing iPhone features!!!



.

Hey Mr. TBaggins,

Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd. Anyway, with the newly released SDK, it appears that Apple may have gotten smart and hired some real telephony guys to help them sort things out. I may end up actually finding a real use for the iPhone after all.
post #217 of 305
Quote:
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.

Interesting you would say I've been completely biased. First of all biased means to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against. I've never proclaimed the iPhone the best phone. I've never claimed that anyone should never use any other phone but the iPhone. I've never claimed that no one should have any complaints about the iPhone.

What I have said is that everyone has differing needs. I think its fine that the iPhone may not fit your needs their are plenty of other phones that should. I've said Apple designed the current iPhone with a few apps that it felt were the best mix and the most useful. Apple said from the beginning that it would continue to add features and functions to the phone. Perhaps the missing features will come in the near future.

I don't see how my stance has been biased or "kool aid drinking." You guys did not want to see the nuances of the situation you just want it to be black or white - good or bad. You want to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against.



Our debates basically have centered around 3G, feature list, and European sales.

Quote:
iPhone sales are low because of 3G.

While 3G is clearly a better technology than EDGE, widespread and ubiquitous in Europe its not actually that commonly used. The highest usage being in Italy.

The iPhone with its slower EDGE as a singular device is the most used data phone in the world. The iPhone by itself stands as number 2 behind all data enabled Nokia phones. iPhone's data marketshare is extremely impressive in Europe where there are more variety of data phones with 3G.

This is a clear example that the user experience is not so much the data pipeline but the software using the data pipeline.


Quote:
iPhone sales are low because of missing features

Nokia conducted a survey of its phone users asking for the features they most wanted and used. Email was the number 1 feature. In surveys the the top features found to be used in the iPhone are email, SMS, and internet.

The list of complaints about missing features is so varied its all rather subjective. So far their really is no clear information that says iPhone sales have directly suffered because of missing features.


Quote:
iPhone sales are poor in Europe

Because of all the above iPhone sales in Europe are poor. Generally these poor sales are measured against the explosive sales in the US.

I would say this is a much more complex issue than simply 3G or features. I agree the iPhone sales in Europe are not great. I agreed a long time ago that European iPhone sales are mediocre at best. But the more important part that gets overshadowed by the hoopla of big sales number are the basic nuts and bolts of profits and subscriptions. Apple made profit from European iPhone sales. European carriers added new subscriptions. Its not as sexy but in the end that is essentially the point.

Europe already has a competitive smartphone market. Its less likely one phone was going to come in and outsell every other smartphone the way it did in the US. The European price of the phone and tariff were too high. This is beginning to come into balance. O2 lowered its tariff and sales began to grow. O2 lowered the price of the phone and they began to sell out.

While AT&t has had the price in the right place were the market is willing to accept and has not had the same sales problems. Keeping the phone in stock has been more of the problem.
post #218 of 305
Quote:
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd. Anyway, with the newly released SDK, it appears that Apple may have gotten smart and hired some real telephony guys to help them sort things out. I may end up actually finding a real use for the iPhone after all.


Oh, Teno's not a bad guy at all, he's just overly dedicated to the Apple party line and very stubborn.

I am starting to see some cracks in his armor though... I think he's finally getting how critical the 3G refresh is, that maybe Apple really isn't doing well in Europe (duh), and that it IS worrisome that Apple is so far behind pace to meet their 10 million goal.

Sometimes it takes awhile to bring ppl around. Though I'm sure T will always at least sip the Kool-aid, he may stop chugging it.



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post #219 of 305
Quote:
If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better.

The point you miss is that this is your opinion. As much as you may believe it, your opinion is not a fact.

Quote:
What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.

Again this is TBaggins opinion. There is no evidence that this is the collective opinion of the mobile phone market at large.
post #220 of 305
Quote:
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd.

Difficult to believe, but I do actually have a job and a life outside of AI.
post #221 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Interesting you would say I've been completely biased. First of all biased means to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against. I've never proclaimed the iPhone the best phone. I've never claimed that anyone should never use any other phone but the iPhone. I've never claimed that no one should have any complaints about the iPhone.

I could be wrong but I think MR. Baggins is talking about how you defended to the end that the iPhone is not selling in well in Europe and how the goal posts continue to be moved in your arguments.

Quote:
What I have said is that everyone has differing needs. I think its fine that the iPhone may not fit your needs their are plenty of other phones that should. I've said Apple designed the current iPhone with a few apps that it felt were the best mix and the most useful. Apple said from the beginning that it would continue to add features and functions to the phone. Perhaps the missing features will come in the near future.

If you say so but from the posts I have read from you, you tend to tow the party line, but if you feels your views have been misrepresented, fair enough. You are given benefit of the doubt by me.

Quote:
I don't see how my stance has been biased or "kool aid drinking." You guys did not want to see the nuances of the situation you just want it to be black or white - good or bad. You want to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against.

I think my "moving the goal posts" argument is valid here. Some things are good or bad, black or white. In my opinion, the iPhone is a great iPod with phone, but a bad phone with iPod. I am in favor of Apple doing better than it did because it is not that hard to do.

Quote:
Our debates basically have centered around 3G, feature list, and European sales.

It is apples and oranges to compare Europe to the US. One is a mature market while the other is maturing.

Quote:
While 3G is clearly a better technology than EDGE, widespread and ubiquitous in Europe its not actually that commonly used. The highest usage being in Italy.

Really? Not commonly used? How do people check their emails, or surf, or use the various chatting applications? Ever here of Fring, iSkoot, Truphone? These all run over wifi or 3G. You might be misunderstanding when they say 3G as in video-calls, but no one ( my guess completely) is making the conscience effort to manually switch off 3G in favor of straight GSM/GPRS data calls. No way. As you said it is ubiquitous and most people have no idea how they are connecting. The setting are automatic the moment you stick the card in the phone.

Quote:
The iPhone with its slower EDGE as a singular device is the most used data phone in the world. The iPhone by itself stands as number 2 behind all data enabled Nokia phones. iPhone's data marketshare is extremely impressive in Europe where there are more variety of data phones with 3G.

Not sure I buy this. Can you post a link to this and how they arrived at this? I would be willing to bet that 3G phones are using as much data as EDGE networks. By the way, 3G settings are automatically input into the phone where as EDGE has to be manually entered or sent via the operator.

Quote:
This is a clear example that the user experience is not so much the data pipeline but the software using the data pipeline.

Not sure what you mean here.

Quote:
Nokia conducted a survey of its phone users asking for the features they most wanted and used. Email was the number 1 feature. In surveys the the top features found to be used in the iPhone are email, SMS, and internet.

I took part in this survey. I agree. Guess how I connect on my N82. I use HSDPA and connect at 7.2 mb/sec.

Quote:
The list of complaints about missing features is so varied its all rather subjective. So far their really is no clear information that says iPhone sales have directly suffered because of missing features.

Maybe not in the US, but those I have spoken to here in Europe see the iPhone as completely underwhelming in terms of what a biz user wants. They all agree that the media player aspect is without equal.

Quote:
Because of all the above iPhone sales in Europe are poor. Generally these poor sales are measured against the explosive sales in the US.

Agreed, but Europeans are most so simplistic in terms of telephony. It takes more than a snazzy UI to impress.

Quote:
I would say this is a much more complex issue than simply 3G or features. I agree the iPhone sales in Europe are not great. I agreed a long time ago that European iPhone sales are mediocre at best. But the more important part that gets overshadowed by the hoopla of big sales number are the basic nuts and bolts of profits and subscriptions. Apple made profit from European iPhone sales. European carriers added new subscriptions. Its not as sexy but in the end that is essentially the point.

Apple did make some money. Not as much as they could have if they had a product that Europeans would purchase without a second thought. The operators were going to get those subscriptions regardless. People want phones and connections.

Quote:
Europe already has a competitive smartphone market. Its less likely one phone was going to come in and outsell every other smartphone the way it did in the US. The European price of the phone and tariff were too high. This is beginning to come into balance. O2 lowered its tariff and sales began to grow. O2 lowered the price of the phone and they began to sell out.

This could be an example of people power. The Europeans said no to the price and they sat on the shelf. Finland told Apple no because of no 3G, but now my friends in Sonera say that they have had a visit from a certain "fruit" vender.

Quote:
While AT&t has had the price in the right place were the market is willing to accept and has not had the same sales problems. Keeping the phone in stock has been more of the problem.

More or less agreed.
post #222 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Difficult to believe, but I do actually have a job and a life outside of AI.

Are they hiring.
post #223 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Oh, Teno's not a bad guy at all, he's just overly dedicated to the Apple party line and very stubborn.

I am starting to see some cracks in his armor though... I think he's finally getting how critical the 3G refresh is, that maybe Apple really isn't doing well in Europe (duh), and that it IS worrisome that Apple is so far behind pace to meet their 10 million goal.

Sometimes it takes awhile to bring ppl around. Though I'm sure T will always at least sip the Kool-aid, he may stop chugging it.



.

For sure, for sure. Teno is one of the better guys to discuss with here. JeffDM is pretty good as well.
post #224 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Again this is TBaggins opinion. There is no evidence that this is the collective opinion of the mobile phone market at large.


Spoken like a US-centric cellphone customer.

Watch and learn, T. 3G is what's going to allow Apple to launch in Italy, Japan, and Korea. It's also what's going to set up the sales stampede on both sides of the pond come late June. There's really no overstating its importance.


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post #225 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

For sure, for sure. Teno is one of the better guys to discuss with here. JeffDM is pretty good as well.


Jeff's good. Teno's kool-aid tendencies make him a good barometer of the Apple party line. Mel is great. Also like to read posts from Electric Monk, Aegis, and Solipism.


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post #226 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Spoken like a US-centric cellphone customer.

Watch and learn, T. 3G is what's going to allow Apple to launch in Italy, Japan, and Korea. It's also what's going to set up the sales stampede on both sides of the pond come late June. There's really no overstating its importance.


.

Teno's lack of understanding of the importance of 3G is typical of those that have never surfed the net at 7.2 mb/sec on their phone. Or have made a VoIP or video conference call. This would include much of the iPhone community, and most of the US cellular market as well. The very lack of 3G was what caused Finland to give Stevie-Boy the old Foxtrot Oscar. If arguably the most sophisticate and tech savvy market, i.e. Finland is not hyped about the iPhone, there has to be something wrong with this picture. I have not checked the figures but the iPods are selling quite well here. The iPod Touch is a big seller, but when asked if they would like to have an iPhone, many say it is not really worth the money as it is crippled in many ways.
post #227 of 305
Quote:
I could be wrong but I think MR. Baggins is talking about how you defended to the end that the iPhone is not selling in well in Europe and how the goal posts continue to be moved in your arguments.

How have I moved the goal posts?

Quote:
If you say so but from the posts I have read from you, you tend to tow the party line, but if you feels your views have been misrepresented, fair enough. You are given benefit of the doubt by me.

What exactly is the party line.

Quote:
I think my "moving the goal posts" argument is valid here. Some things are good or bad, black or white. In my opinion, the iPhone is a great iPod with phone, but a bad phone with iPod. I am in favor of Apple doing better than it did because it is not that hard to do.

I'm confused by this whole paragraph.

How have I moved the goal posts?

Some things are good and bad for you. But your opinion doesn't determine what is good or bad for everyone else.

You say you own an iPhone but then continue to call it an iPod with a phone. When the iPod is one of several applications shipped with the device. Its no more an iPod with a phone than any other phone that has media playing capabilities. Surveys have shown the iPod application is one of the least used on the iPhone.

If you wish to continue calling it an iPod with a phone please come up with some supporting evidence more than you own limited opinion.


Quote:
Really? Not commonly used? How do people check their emails, or surf, or use the various chatting applications? Ever here of Fring, iSkoot, Truphone? These all run over wifi or 3G. You might be misunderstanding when they say 3G as in video-calls, but no one ( my guess completely) is making the conscience effort to manually switch off 3G in favor of straight GSM/GPRS data calls. No way. As you said it is ubiquitous and most people have no idea how they are connecting. The setting are automatic the moment you stick the card in the phone.

I'm talking about the number of people who even have a 3G tariff. People have posted various reports about European 3G usage. European mobile phone usage is nearly 100%, of that number only about 34% of mobile phone users pay for a 3G tariff.

Quote:
Not sure I buy this. Can you post a link to this and how they arrived at this? I would be willing to bet that 3G phones are using as much data as EDGE networks. By the way, 3G settings are automatically input into the phone where as EDGE has to be manually entered or sent via the operator.

Apple's iPhone is driving "unheard of levels of mobile Internet usage," an O2 executive said Monday.

Matthew Key, who becomes chief executive of O2 Europe next month, told the Financial Times that 60 per cent of the company's iPhone customers in the UK were sending or receiving more than 25 megabytes of data a month, the equivalent of 7,500 e-mails without attachments or 25 YouTube videos. By comparison, less than 2 per cent of O2's other UK customers on monthly payment contracts use more than 25MB a month.


However, the O2 research found that customers who have Nokia's N95, the Finnish handset maker's nearest equivalent to the iPhone, which runs on 3G networks, access markedly less data compared with those using the Apple device.


iPhone browsing marketshare closes in on .1%, .09 percent may seem like an extremely small marketshare but when you consider that the iPhone has only been selling for 5 months and for most of that time was in one – albeit large – market (the U.S.), that share is amazing. Add another .01% for the iPod touch and Apple mobile platform is one out of every thousand pageviews across the Internet. Desktop platforms are starting to come into the iPhone's blast radius. Windows 95 has less than a quarter of the marketshare of the iPhone. And all of the Linux variants combined, just over five times (.57%) the market. Broken out over Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntu, etc, someone is losing to the iPhone right now. At this rate, the iPhone/iPod platform should be the third largest computing platform by the end of next year.


Quote:
Not sure what you mean here.

Consumers don't directly use 3G or EDGE. Consumer directly use software. The quality of the software more determines the usefulness of the data connection.


Quote:
Apple did make some money. Not as much as they could have if they had a product that Europeans would purchase without a second thought. The operators were going to get those subscriptions regardless. People want phones and connections.

Motorola has sold 27.4 million phones sold at $7.45 billion in revenue for a $194 million loss in profits. Motorola sold 16 times more phones at around 8 times more revenue than the iPhone.

The iPhone sold 1.7 million phones for 378 million in sales, $1.93 billion in total deferred revenue for $1.05 billion in total profit.

Its easy to say you can sell more phones. But selling more phones does not necessarily equate into more profit.

Quote:
Maybe not in the US, but those I have spoken to here in Europe see the iPhone as completely underwhelming in terms of what a biz user wants. They all agree that the media player aspect is without equal. Agreed, but Europeans are most so simplistic in terms of telephony. It takes more than a snazzy UI to impress.

O2 has reported to sell out of iPhones with the price decreases. That doesn't generally happen to a product that has failed in the market.
post #228 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Motorola has sold 27.4 million phones sold at $7.45 billion in revenue for a $194 million loss in profits. Motorola sold 16 times more phones at around 8 times more revenue than the iPhone.

The iPhone sold 1.7 million phones for 378 million in sales, $1.93 billion in total deferred revenue for $1.05 billion in total profit.

Its easy to say you can sell more phones. But selling more phones does not necessarily equate into more profit.

While we all know that Motorola is a financial basketcase, you have a mis-understanding of the deferred revenue for the iphone.

Apple booked $5 million in iphone revenue in June quarter, and for the next 7 quarters it will continue to book $5 million per quarter.

Apple booked $123 million in iphone revenue for the Sept quarter --- but only $118 million came from Sept quarter sales ($5 million came from June quarter sales that were deferred).
5 + 118 = 123.

Apple booked $241 million in iphone revenue for the Dec quarter --- but only $118 million came from Dec quarter sales ($5 million + $118 million from previous quarters that were deferred).
5 + 118 + 118 = 241.

So for the March quarter --- it's $137 million for the March quarter sales (plus $5 million + $118 million + $118 million from previous quarters that were deferred).
5+ 118 + 118 + 137 = 378.

$1.93 billion deferred is for the whole 5.4 million iphones (minus March 6 - March 31 sales).
post #229 of 305
Quote:
While we all know that Motorola is a financial basketcase, you have a mis-understanding of the deferred revenue for the iphone.

$1.93 billion deferred is for the whole 5.4 million iphones (minus March 6 - March 31 sales).

Yeah I know what the deferred revenue is about. Its deferred over 24 months. That is why I said Motorola made about 8 times more revenue than the iPhone for the quarter. I mention it because as much profit as Apple made this quarter that revenue will return even more profit that Apple did not see this quarter.
post #230 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yeah I know what the deferred revenue is about. Its deferred over 24 months. That is why I said Motorola made about 8 times more revenue than the iPhone for the quarter. I mention it because as much profit as Apple made this quarter that revenue will return even more profit that Apple did not see this quarter.

Actually it's worse than that --- handset revenue for Motorola is only $3.3 billion for the last quarter.
post #231 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

How have I moved the goal posts?

What exactly is the party line.

I'm confused by this whole paragraph.

How have I moved the goal posts?

I'll leave all this for SapporoBaby, whom its addressed to. But a note to SP... Teno tends to play innocent when cornered, simply to draw out the debate and win by default when you get tired of pulling teeth with him. He also has a bad habit of insisting on evidence for every single point you make, though he doesn't seem to hold himself to the same rigor.

Not to say Teno is awful or anything... its pretty much just Internet Debating 101.


Quote:
I'm talking about the number of people who even have a 3G tariff. People have posted various reports about European 3G usage. European mobile phone usage is nearly 100%, of that number only about 34% of mobile phone users pay for a 3G tariff.

C'mon Teno. It's been pointed out to you many times that 1) 3G penetration in Europe is rising rapidly and 2) it's uneven, which means that some Euro nations, like Italy, have significantly higher 3G penetration rates than the continent as a whole. Which is part of why Apple's waiting for the 3G model before launching in Italy.

It's 2008. Why would you continue to try to downplay the importance of 3G, especially in Europe, which is further along in that regard than the US? Thankfully, Apple does not appear to share this view.


Quote:
Apple's iPhone is driving "unheard of levels of mobile Internet usage," an O2 executive said Monday.

...iPhone browsing marketshare closes in on .1%, .09 percent may seem like an extremely small marketshare but when you consider that the iPhone has only been selling for 5 months and for most of that time was in one – albeit large – market (the U.S.), that share is amazing.

...At this rate, the iPhone/iPod platform should be the third largest computing platform by the end of next year.

Shame on you Teno, we've been over this, and you know better by now.

Yes, the iPhone is being used a good amount as a mobile internet device, because the large touchscreen plus mobile Safari provides a good user experience. You point this out in an attempt to show that the iPhone doesn't really need 3G, because things are going well already.

But you know as well as I that those internet usage figures would EXPLODE with a 3G iPhone, as the user experience would then be improved a great deal further. Yes, the connection DOES matter, because its the piece of the puzzle that's missing... most especially in Europe, which doesn't even have slow EDGE for its 2.5G, but rather SUPER-slow, crappy GPRS (aka dialup speed), because many places in Europe didn't bother with EDGE, they went straight from GPRS to 3G. \



Quote:
Consumers don't directly use 3G or EDGE. Consumer directly use software. The quality of the software more determines the usefulness of the data connection.

Really? Let's try using iChat over EDGE or GPRS.


Quote:
Motorola has sold 27.4 million phones sold at $7.45 billion in revenue for a $194 million loss in profits. Motorola sold 16 times more phones at around 8 times more revenue than the iPhone.

The iPhone sold 1.7 million phones for 378 million in sales, $1.93 billion in total deferred revenue for $1.05 billion in total profit.

Its easy to say you can sell more phones. But selling more phones does not necessarily equate into more profit.

Samab's already addressed you here, so no need to expound further.

Btw, where do you get your iPhone profit numbers? I wasn't aware that Apple was breaking them out separately as of yet... are they "official", or are you guesstimating?


Quote:
O2 has reported to sell out of iPhones with the price decreases. That doesn't generally happen to a product that has failed in the market.

ANYONE can generate a short-term sales spike via a pricecut. Dell can do the same, does it mean that Dells are super-desirable cutting-edge products that everyone should buy? Nope. \

The true test is whether a price point re-set causes a significant increase in LONG-TERM demand. I think in Europe it will, but sufficiently only if its coupled with the timely release of a 3G model, with some of the other glaring feature deficits addressed as well.

The Euros are sophisticated cellphone buyers and have a lot of choices in the smartphone market, the iPhone needs to be strong across the board.


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post #232 of 305
You know, what I don't get is this attitude that Apple made a huge blunder by not including a 3G radio in the iPhone from the start, and now that sophisticated European users are turning up their noses Apple has been humiliated and will be forced to come around.

All of that is just silly. Apple was very clear from the start: when they released the iPhone in America, a 2G radio was the better choice, because of battery life and coverage.

When 3G radios became efficient enough, they would add one.

Which is what is happening. I suppose Apple could have simply not sold the iPhone anywhere but America until they had a 3G model ready to go, but what would be the point of that?

What's with all the "bwa-ha-ha, the greedy arrogant Jobs has been brought low by the steely resolve of gimlet eyed continentals" crap? It just makes some of you seem sort of xenophobic.

And please, could we just dispense with the "fan boys bow down before their master" stuff? Cause it's kinda irritating.
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post #233 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You know, what I don't get is this attitude that Apple made a huge blunder by not including a 3G radio in the iPhone from the start


Meh... no 3G at launch didn't end up holding Apple back a lot in the US, but it has ended up being a mistake to launch with what is essentially the US 2.5G model in the more sophisticated and demanding European market. And it'd be a pretty huge disaster to launch with that in much of Asia (Japan, Korea), which is why they're not going to do that. Well, they're learning, in any case. Italy is pretty heavily 3G (for Europe) and Apple is going to wait until the 3G model to launch there, which is smart.

The rest of your post seems to be a tad emotional and perhaps reading some things in that either aren't there, or are only there for a few posters. I own Apple stock, and don't wish to see them "humbled"... it's better for my bottom line if they get it right the first time.

Unfortunately, no one bats a thousand, and even Stevie J makes mistakes. Which is okay, so long as he finally listens and corrects them in a timely manner, which is all I care about. If there's some sort of Euro Fanboi vs Jobs Fanboi war going on in the background, I honestly don't give a damn.


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post #234 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Meh... no 3G at launch didn't end up holding Apple back a lot in the US, but it has ended up being a mistake to launch with what is essentially the US 2.5G model in the more sophisticated and demanding European market. And it'd be a pretty huge disaster to launch with that in much of Asia (Japan, Korea), which is why they're not going to do that. Well, they're learning, in any case. Italy is pretty heavily 3G (for Europe) and Apple is going to wait until the 3G model to launch there, which is smart.

The rest of your post seems to be a tad emotional and perhaps reading some things in that either aren't there, or are only there for a few posters. I own Apple stock, and don't wish to see them "humbled"... it's better for my bottom line if they get it right the first time.

Unfortunately, no one bats a thousand, and even Stevie J makes mistakes. Which is okay, so long as he finally listens and corrects them in a timely manner, which is all I care about. If there's some sort of Euro Fanboi vs Jobs Fanboi war going on in the background, I honestly don't give a damn.


.

OK, but I don't see how launching into the European market with the phone they had was a mistake, or how following that with the 3G phone that was planned all along is any kind of correction due to "learning."

I mean, I think the sophisticated European phone buyer can figure out that a 3G model is different from a 2G, yes? So it's not like the fact that a 2G iPhone has been on the market is going to depress sales of a 3G model because potential buyers will be saying "oh, the iPhone, I tried that and it sucked", right?

So they've sold some phones and developed some vendor relationships. All to the better when they release the 3G model.

What is the downside here, for Apple? Do Europeans hold grudges if vendors fail to meet their stringent requirements in every case? Will they eschew the 3G iPhone to punish Apple, for, I dunno, "arrogance"?

Apple is doing what it intended to do all along, clearly. All this drama about offending European sensibilities, or attributing all kinds of negative attributes to Apple because of their timing (greed, ignorance, arrogance, etc.) seems pretty goofy to me.

Now as far as relationships with carriers, and the pricing structure-- sure, Apple probably has to change it up, and it seems like they're willing to do that. But that's just business-- you put a plan into motion, gauge the results, modify if necessary.

No "Apple with its tail between its legs" necessary, just business.
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post #235 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OK, but I don't see how launching into the European market with the phone they had was a mistake

It was a mistake because Apple is the newbie on the block in the cellphone game, and they're going up against some very large and entrenched competition that's been around for decades, like Nokia. So Apple's first challenge is to be taken seriously. It's difficult to succeed in that challenge if your first product in a big market (Europe) doesn't do well and lacks many 'duh' features that your prospective customers expect and want in a high-end phone. The initial pricing didn't help either.

Put another way, say I'm some brand new Chinese auto maker that you've never heard of. I release a car into the US that's pretty good... except it doesn't have airbags or power steering, and is overpriced as well. It kinda bombs. Are you likely to take my next product super-seriously? Am I on your short list for your next auto purchase? Do I displace long-time established, entrenched makes like Honda, Toyota, and GM in you, the consumer's, mind? No, no, and no.

Remember, there's barely a six month gap between the Euro launch of the 2.5G iPhone, and what is looking to be the (June) Euro launch of the 3G iPhone. Why hurt your brand and your rep just to rush a 2.5G phone into a market where it's not going to sell well anyway? \

And, no, I don't think this was according to Apple's plan, i.e. Apple didn't do this KNOWING the 2.5G iPhone would underwhelm in Europe, and figure, "Meh, it's okay, we'll kick ass with the 3G model anyway."

Apple knows all about brand, public perception, marketing... they're masters of it. Frankly, they got caught by surprise... they honestly thought that the 2.5G model would still do pretty well in the European market, even with a feature set that was questionable by Euro standards, and even at the (high) prices they were trying to charge.

It was a miscalculation, and they are adapting, but I'm sure if they had a chance to do it over, they would've changed a lot of things about the European launch, including very likely the timeframe.

On the bright side, the US launch went well, and the Asian launch should as well, as that will be a 3G model, which is pretty much required these days by the Japanese and Korean markets. So, two out of three ain't bad. But I think Europe is an uphill battle, with the 3G iPhone fighting for respect every step of the way. Aggressive pricing will help.


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No "Apple with its tail between its legs" necessary, just business.


I don't care where Steve's tail is, so long as his ears are open.


.
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Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
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Thanks for listening to your...
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post #236 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

It was a mistake because Apple is the newbie on the block in the cellphone game, and they're going up against some very large and entrenched competition that's been around for decades, like Nokia. So Apple's first challenge is to be taken seriously. It's difficult to succeed in that challenge if your first product in a big market (Europe) doesn't do well and lacks many 'duh' features that your prospective customers expect and want in a high-end phone. The initial pricing didn't help either.

Put another way, say I'm some brand new Chinese auto maker that you've never heard of. I release a car into the US that's pretty good... except it doesn't have airbags or power steering, and is overpriced as well. It kinda bombs. Are you likely to take my next product super-seriously? Am I on your short list for your next auto purchase? Do I displace long-time established, entrenched makes like Honda, Toyota, and GM in you, the consumer's, mind? No, no, and no.

Remember, there's barely a six month gap between the Euro launch of the 2.5G iPhone, and what is looking to be the (June) Euro launch of the 3G iPhone. Why hurt your brand and your rep just to rush a 2.5G phone into a market where it's not going to sell well anyway? \

And, no, I don't think this was according to Apple's plan, i.e. Apple didn't do this KNOWING the 2.5G iPhone would underwhelm in Europe, and figure, "Meh, it's okay, we'll kick ass with the 3G model anyway."

Apple knows all about brand, public perception, marketing... they're masters of it. Frankly, they got caught by surprise... they honestly thought that the 2.5G model would still do pretty well in the European market, even with a feature set that was questionable by Euro standards, and even at the (high) prices they were trying to charge.

It was a miscalculation, and they are adapting, but I'm sure if they had a chance to do it over, they would've changed a lot of things about the European launch, including very likely the timeframe.

On the bright side, the US launch went well, and the Asian launch should as well, as that will be a 3G model, which is pretty much required these days by the Japanese and Korean markets. So, two out of three ain't bad. But I think Europe is an uphill battle, with the 3G iPhone fighting for respect every step of the way. Aggressive pricing will help.


I don't think the car analogy works that well. The worst thing you can do is introduce a product with poor quality. Hyundi and others made that mistake, and it takes a long time to change the perception that your products are shoddy.

That's a very different proposition from "limited feature set." The analogy here would be if a Chinese manufacture introduced a very well made, very reliable, extremely fun to drive and great handling car into the American market, but only offered it as two door sedan, and left out a few things (iPod integration on the stereo, say, or traction control) that many cars in its price class habitually featured. Also, because gas mileage is a priority for this manufacturer, it is only offered with a relatively low power engine.

Some buyers find the driving experience and general quality to be uniquely satisfying enough as to override concerns about features. Others do not.

Then, our hypothetical Chinese company follows up with a more fully featured cross-over vehicle, and advances in technology mean they can offer a more powerful motor with similar mileage. The new model appears to address buyers reluctance to forgo features, while still retaining its well deserved reputation for quality and enjoyment.

So, again, I don't see how "really well made, full efficient, high quality, fun to drive and great handling, missing some features that a lot of buyers in this market want" translates into "now we will never take this manufacturer seriously again and not even bother to check out their newest stuff."

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I don't care where Steve's tail is, so long as his ears are open.

Yeah, but it's kind of implicit in what you're saying, which is that Apple should have, inexplicably, forgone sales of the phone they had (not to mention a leg up on the boilerplate of negotiating channel allocation), because European sensibilities would be so deeply offended by a phone without 3G it would subsequently depress sales of a 3G phone, once it arrived.

Right? Because unless a 2G iPhone actually in some way will prove to damage the sales of the next model, there is no reason in the world for Apple not to sell those phones and make that money.

As far as what Apple's expectation for a 2G model in Europe were..... we don't really know that, do we? Apple only looks foolish if we hypothesis that they thought the iPhone was going to take Europe by storm, and I've never seen anything from Apple that suggests that that's what they believed.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #237 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You know, what I don't get is this attitude that Apple made a huge blunder by not including a 3G radio in the iPhone from the start, and now that sophisticated European users are turning up their noses Apple has been humiliated and will be forced to come around.

Um, you do realise this is the Internet? Where any regular Joe, or Juan, or Jiri, or Jan, or Jin or Jun has an opinion. They're just like you or your neighbor, no smarter or dumber, just opinionated. In any discussion about this, you must have the fortitude to keep on going no matter how convoluted or dense the thread has gone. Sort of like a light version of political-religious-social threads.

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All of that is just silly. Apple was very clear from the start: when they released the iPhone in America, a 2G radio was the better choice, because of battery life and coverage.

When 3G radios became efficient enough, they would add one.

Which is what is happening. I suppose Apple could have simply not sold the iPhone anywhere but America until they had a 3G model ready to go, but what would be the point of that?

What's with all the "bwa-ha-ha, the greedy arrogant Jobs has been brought low by the steely resolve of gimlet eyed continentals" crap? It just makes some of you seem sort of xenophobic.

Remember, they are just like you. And if you have any perspective, you should realize they really don't know what they are talking about (they are just like you ) because no one has the market demographics, sales info, expectations, and such. If they did, they won't be talking, and would be selling the information or working for the company.

As for 3G, just think about this factoid. In terms of 3G users, the USA, as of calendar Q4 07, has a slightly higher percentage of 3G users in its market then Great Britain, Germany and France in their respective markets. Italy/Spain is a little bit higher. Apple did their market demographics right, and their strategy right, by going with EDGE at first with the iPhone.

The difficulty with Europe has mostly been price. There's a lot of talk about how Europe is this cell phone market haven with a lot of consumer rights, but in the end, the operators still offer free or heavily discounted phones for signing on to a long term (12, 18 months) contract. Dollars to donuts, people would rather have a little discomfort (long term contract) for getting something cheaper. I really doubt many consumers will pay $700 for a Nokia N-series phone, unlocked, when they could get it for much much less with a contract.

Corollary to that is Europe does have more high-end phones on the market, and at discounted prices with contract. Lastly, Apple's brand power isn't very strong outside of the USA. So, competition is stiff.

The lunacy is that members of the Internet believe that Apple does not know this.

While I don't think the people participating in European iPhone topics here on AI are xenophobic, it's something that shouldn't be discounted for any company entering into a foreign market. People are nationalistic, are xenophobic by nature. Apple, whose a rather galling company for techno-geeks and enterprise CIOs, generates controversy as part of its being. It shouldn't come as a surprise that their are so many love-hate discussions. And that's just in the USA. Imagine Apple entering an entrenched cell phone market in Europe with it's own set of fan-culture. Well, lile evolution threads, patience and fortitude are required.
post #238 of 305
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As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.

I missed this post from Aegis. And I completely agree.

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Apple should just stick another 128MB of RAM in the iPhone and kill off the silly no multitasking rule. I think it's a good idea that the OS asks the application to save it's state and quit when a call comes in or when you're running out of RAM like Symbian does, but I think there should still be a way of letting the app decide if it should do as it's told to.

News from the latest SDK build sound as if Apple is working on this. Background processing may or may not make the next firmware update. But I imagine Apple will include it as soon as they feel it works without negatively impacting the performance of the phone.

UIApplication delegate class: "There are definitely some very interesting methods added to UIApplication's delegate, including methods for badging the Springboard icon, and methods related to gaining and resigning "active" status - seems like background apps may be permitted somehow."
post #239 of 305
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But a note to SP... Teno tends to play innocent when cornered, simply to draw out the debate and win by default when you get tired of pulling teeth with him.

I'm genuinely asking for examples of how I moved the goal posts and my bias. I gave example of why I felt you guys were biased against the iPhone.

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C'mon Teno. It's been pointed out to you many times that 1) 3G penetration in Europe is rising rapidly and 2) it's uneven, which means that some Euro nations, like Italy, have significantly higher 3G penetration rates than the continent as a whole.

I don't understand how this differs from what I said. Unless you have evidence that European 3G use has risen above 34% in its user base.

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It's 2008. Why would you continue to try to downplay the importance of 3G, especially in Europe, which is further along in that regard than the US? Thankfully, Apple does not appear to share this view.

I said 3G is a superior technology to EDGE. Ultimately you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the iPhone having grown into a dominant data device despite EDGE and its 6% marketshare. Clearly shows high quality software is more important than data speed.

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Yes, the iPhone is being used a good amount as a mobile internet device, because the large touchscreen plus mobile Safari provides a good user experience. You point this out in an attempt to show that the iPhone doesn't really need 3G, because things are going well already.

You are being argumentative. I didn't say anything like this at all. What I said is that it shows which part of the user experience is more useful and important. That doesn't mean the iPhone doesn't need 3G.

Apple has vastly improved Safari since last year. Add 3G to the mix, the iPhone is likely to crush everyone else in data marketshare.

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Really? Let's try using iChat over EDGE or GPRS.

I do IM over EDGE.

I also watch lots of video over EDGE.

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But you know as well as I that those internet usage figures would EXPLODE with a 3G iPhone, as the user experience would then be improved a great deal further.

Yes they will. But you cannot ignore the phenomenal growth of the iPhone internet marketshare in relation to its over all marketshare in such a short time.

iPhone internet usage figures will explode even larger with 3G and long battery life.

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Btw, where do you get your iPhone profit numbers? I wasn't aware that Apple was breaking them out separately as of yet... are they "official", or are you guesstimating?

Macworld published the breakout numbers.

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ANYONE can generate a short-term sales spike via a pricecut. Dell can do the same, does it mean that Dells are super-desirable cutting-edge products that everyone should buy? Nope.

Its not normal for a failed product to receive a sales cut that still leaves it more expensive than its competition and sells out of its stock.

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The true test is whether a price point re-set causes a significant increase in LONG-TERM demand. I think in Europe it will, but sufficiently only if its coupled with the timely release of a 3G model, with some of the other glaring feature deficits addressed as well.

I completely agree. I've said several times in our debates that Nokia has been in telephone communications for over 20 years. Apple has been in mobile communications for 10 months. Apple has only just begun growing the iPhone platform, it will grow and change.
post #240 of 305
Quote:
The difficulty with Europe has mostly been price. There's a lot of talk about how Europe is this cell phone market haven with a lot of consumer rights, but in the end, the operators still offer free or heavily discounted phones for signing on to a long term (12, 18 months) contract. Dollars to donuts, people would rather have a little discomfort (long term contract) for getting something cheaper. I really doubt many consumers will pay $700 for a Nokia N-series phone, unlocked, when they could get it for much much less with a contract.

While I don't think the people participating in European iPhone topics here on AI are xenophobic, it's something that shouldn't be discounted for any company entering into a foreign market. People are nationalistic, are xenophobic by nature. Apple, whose a rather galling company for techno-geeks and enterprise CIOs, generates controversy as part of its being. It shouldn't come as a surprise that their are so many love-hate discussions. And that's just in the USA. Imagine Apple entering an entrenched cell phone market in Europe with it's own set of fan-culture. Well, lile evolution threads, patience and fortitude are required.

I agree.
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