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France's Orange may be next to cut iPhone price, eat losses - reports - Page 8

post #281 of 305
5/5/08 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

It's not that "you can try, but you can't really" --- billions of GSM phones have been sold that way.


I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.
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post #282 of 305
5/5/08 at 11:33pm
Teno, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock

Almost all GSM phones sold are locked to a carrier's network and usually include the SIM card in the box.

You're just totally wrong, again.
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post #283 of 305
5/5/08 at 11:52pm
Quote:
You're just totally wrong, again.

Alright taking this back to the iPhone. Apple intended to lock it to one carrier in four countries. But what we have is the iPhone being used in every industrialized country on the planet on multiple carriers.
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post #284 of 305
5/6/08 at 12:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Teno, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock

Almost all GSM phones sold are locked to a carrier's network and usually include the SIM card in the box.

You're just totally wrong, again.

Hi aegisdesign,

I am not totally sure about this. I know that some operators offer branded phones but they remain unlocked so that users can still use their own sim cards but still have the branding present. They also lock some features.
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post #285 of 305
5/6/08 at 12:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.

He is correct. Some phones are SIM locked while some phones are hardware locked. The iPhone is a perfect example of this.
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post #286 of 305
5/6/08 at 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Alright taking this back to the iPhone. Apple intended to lock it to one carrier in four countries. But what we have is the iPhone being used in every industrialized country on the planet on multiple carriers.

Locks are made to be broken. It doesn't change the intention on Apple or the carrier's part to lock the phone.

It wasn't exactly easy to unlock an iPhone and keep it unlocked in comparison to an average run of the mill Nokia S40 phone or Motorola where you just enter in a code you get of the internet. Can you even ask your carrier to unlock them legally yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I am not totally sure about this. I know that some operators offer branded phones but they remain unlocked so that users can still use their own sim cards but still have the branding present. They also lock some features.

Some carriers are more restrictive than others but in recent years I've noticed it getting more restrictive as each carrier introduces more branding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

He is correct. Some phones are SIM locked while some phones are hardware locked. The iPhone is a perfect example of this.

They're not 'hardware locked' as it's just carrier specific software pre-loaded on the phone but it obviously requires a whole level of hacking above SIM lock code hacking to replace the phone's firmware.

The iPhone is not unusual in that regard. Most of the smartphones require more work to allow you to put generic firmware on them instead of Orange's or Vodafone's.
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post #287 of 305
5/6/08 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.

3 UK have superglued their SIM cards permanently into their cheap prepaid GSM phones.

http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=2096

You people are behaving as though (1) Europe is such a mobile phone heaven and (2) Apple is doing something that is so out of this world.

The iphone's launch in Europe has shown once and for all that --- all their simlocking laws are crap. Every European carrier does some firmware branding on their GSM phones (i.e. it's not just the evil big red Verizon Wireless that is doing it).

What mobile phone hackers can or cannot do --- have no connection to the way the carriers can or cannot do certain things.
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post #288 of 305
5/6/08 at 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Locks are made to be broken. It doesn't change the intention on Apple or the carrier's part to lock the phone.

Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
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post #289 of 305
5/6/08 at 11:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

3 UK have superglued their SIM cards permanently into their cheap prepaid GSM phones.

Taking this back to the iPhone which is what this was originally about. Its doubtful the sim card is going to be superglued. People will be able to change it.


Quote:
You people are behaving as though (1) Europe is such a mobile phone heaven and (2) Apple is doing something that is so out of this world.

How am I behaving in this way? My original question was how will Apple be able to lock the iPhone to carriers who all use the same network technology. So far they have not been able to.
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post #290 of 305
5/7/08 at 1:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.

What? You really don't understand what a SIM Lock is. The SIM isn't the bit that is locked. The PHONE is locked to a particular carrier's SIM card identifier. You can't just change the SIM and hey presto, it's unlocked.
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post #291 of 305
5/7/08 at 2:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.

I think you are digging yourself into a big hole here.

In Europe nearly all phones are sold in a carrier subsidised model, i.e. your brand new Nokia smartphone is a small upfront price or normally free in return for you signing on a contract with the carrier for a 12/18/24 month contract. The phone is then locked to that network for the duration of your contract. This is to ensure that the carrier recoups the money back for the handset they paid for.

Th European union have ordered that all phones must be unlocked by the carrier at the customers request, but you still have to buy yourself out of the contract.

There is a thriving black market industry for unlocking phones but this still does not change the fact that you are still in a contract with the carrier and will get chased by debt collectors if you do not pay, so the carriers are not that worried.

There is also a market for buying unlocked phones outright similar to the iPhone model, but you do not have to have a carrier contract to go with them. You can choose to go pay as you go or get a special rate with a carrier seen as they are not subsidizing your handset.

Not all phones are branded at all, only Orange ever used to brand the actual handsets but Vodafone do this too, but not to all the handsets.
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post #292 of 305
5/7/08 at 2:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.

Okay, I presumed this was the same in the US but maybe it is not.

All phones sold in the UK (and I presume the rest of Europe?) are locked to the Sim card, you cannot use a different sim card in a handset, even a sim card from the same carrier.

During the late 90's when mobile phone ownership became prolific there was a huge spate on mobile phone thefts. Measures were quickly put into place to ensure that a stolen mobile phone was useless. Thus changing the sim card will achieve nothing without unlocking the phone.

It is illegal for anybody accept the carrier to unlock a mobile phone.
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post #293 of 305
5/7/08 at 2:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

All phones sold in the UK (and I presume the rest of Europe?) are locked to the Sim card, you cannot use a different sim card in a handset, even a sim card from the same carrier.

No, that's not true. I switch SIMs and phones all the time. It's rare that the SIM lock is to a specific IMEI code. ie. to one handset. Locked to one carrier, yes. ie. I can stick an Orange SIM from one phone in another Orange phone, but not in a Vodafone phone as the Vodafone phone will block non-Vodafone SIMs.

I think there's some stricter locks on the Pay-as-you-go phones though where you can't put a contract SIM in a PAYG phone, even on the same carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

It is illegal for anybody accept the carrier to unlock a mobile phone.

That's not true either.
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post #294 of 305
5/7/08 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

Th European union have ordered that all phones must be unlocked by the carrier at the customers request, but you still have to buy yourself out of the contract.

No such laws exist in the EU. O2 UK is telling people that your iphone is useless if you go away from their network. You can't buy out a iphone contract in the UK. After your contract is over, you still can't get the unlocking code for the iphone.
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post #295 of 305
5/7/08 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Taking this back to the iPhone which is what this was originally about. Its doubtful the sim card is going to be superglued. People will be able to change it.

How am I behaving in this way? My original question was how will Apple be able to lock the iPhone to carriers who all use the same network technology. So far they have not been able to.

You kept saying that it's technically impossible to do this and do that --- like you never live in the real world.

Nokia's BB5 simlocking technology took about 3 years to crack --- that's 2 lifetimes for cellphones (with an average life of 18 months). That's as close as permanence without supergluing the SIM card.

All the different countries that sell the iphone are simlocked to their own carriers --- simlocked to AT&T, O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. Whether hackers can crack it or not --- doesn't affect whether they were originally simlocked or not.
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post #296 of 305
5/7/08 at 8:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

What? You really don't understand what a SIM Lock is. The SIM isn't the bit that is locked. The PHONE is locked to a particular carrier's SIM card identifier. You can't just change the SIM and hey presto, it's unlocked.

Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
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post #297 of 305
5/7/08 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

You kept saying that it's technically impossible to do this and do that --- like you never live in the real world.

I never said it was technically impossible.
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post #298 of 305
5/7/08 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.

It became largely academic with these "eventually" --- when Nokia brought out their BB5 simlocking technology. People have bought 2 generations of N series phones before they got their initial phone unlocked.

If Nokia brings out BB6 tomorrow and it takes another 3 years to crack --- then that's an eternity for cell phones.
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post #299 of 305
5/7/08 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.

Correcting now becomes nitpicking.

Oh well.
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post #300 of 305
5/7/08 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

It became largely academic with these "eventually" --- when Nokia brought out their BB5 simlocking technology. People have bought 2 generations of N series phones before they got their initial phone unlocked.

If Nokia brings out BB6 tomorrow and it takes another 3 years to crack --- then that's an eternity for cell phones.

Agreed. If Apple "really" wanted to lock down the iPhone they could have. If they had employed a military grade cypher, the iPhone would stay locked. Personally, I think Apple wants it unlocked. Viral marketing and all.
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post #301 of 305
5/7/08 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

No, that's not true. I switch SIMs and phones all the time. It's rare that the SIM lock is to a specific IMEI code. ie. to one handset. Locked to one carrier, yes. ie. I can stick an Orange SIM from one phone in another Orange phone, but not in a Vodafone phone as the Vodafone phone will block non-Vodafone SIMs.
.

Yeh, i was forgetting myself there. It was supposed to work like I said but you can change sim's from the same network. If your phone is stolen though you can report it and the phone will then become unusable with any other sim card.
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post #302 of 305
5/7/08 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

No such laws exist in the EU. O2 UK is telling people that your iphone is useless if you go away from their network. You can't buy out a iphone contract in the UK. After your contract is over, you still can't get the unlocking code for the iphone.

Yes it does.

The European union has made it clear that you must be able to get the unlocking code once you have paid for the phone. The networks are allowed to charge for this, Vodafone used to charge 15 quid I think.

Belguim have taken this a step further and do not allow any locked phones to be sold I am led to believe.
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post #303 of 305
5/7/08 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

Yes it does.

The European union has made it clear that you must be able to get the unlocking code once you have paid for the phone. The networks are allowed to charge for this, Vodafone used to charge 15 quid I think.

Belguim have taken this a step further and do not allow any locked phones to be sold I am led to believe.

We know that O2 UK tells people that their iphone is going to be a paper weight if they don't continue to be with O2 --- even after you finish the 18 month iphone contract in the UK. O2 UK has no intention of ever providing the unlocking code for the iphone.

In September 2007, OnePhone UK submitted a response to Ofcom's consultation paper on porting --- and OnePhone asked Ofcom to consider clear simlocking guidelines including the specific inclusion of the provision of unlocking codes at the end of the contract.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/cond...s/onephone.pdf

As of September 2007, there is no Ofcom sim-locking policy that forces the carrier to even give you the unlocking code at the end of your contract.

We know that T-Mobile Germany successfully overturned Vodafone's injunction against the iphone contractual terms. T-Mobile Germany voluntarily promised the German court that they will provide unlocking codes at the end of the contract. The key word is voluntary.

2 of the biggest countries in the EU --- have NO laws for mandating the provision of unlocking codes at the end of the contract.
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post #304 of 305
5/7/08 at 7:07pm
ggggggg
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post #305 of 305
5/7/08 at 8:47pm
So is the iphone still a failure ?
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