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QUARTZ HARDWARE ACCEL!!

post #1 of 192
Thread Starter 
From MacCentral:

"Quartz Extreme: Takes the compositing engine in Quartz, and accelerates it in graphics cards. Combines 2D, 3D and video in one hardware pipeline via OpenGL

It is not possible on older graphics cards like RAGE 128 cards, said Jobs -- that means it'll work on newer iMacs and eMacs, but not on older machines, he emphasized. AGP 2x and 32MB video RAM are required for this new technology."

HOT!

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: AppleCello ]</p>
post #2 of 192
[quote] It is not possible on older graphics cards like RAGE 128 cards, said Jobs -- that means it'll work on newer iMacs and eMacs, but not on older machines, he emphasized. AGP 2x and 32MB video RAM are required for this new technology. <hr></blockquote>
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post #3 of 192
Does this mean I can't buy a new complient video card for my B & W Powermac?
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post #4 of 192
I think not. Event if you could buy a card with 32MB of RAM, you don't have the 2x AGP.
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post #5 of 192
Now what's my eBay account number...
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post #6 of 192
OK so what happens if you have a dual monitor setup that runs through a PCI card (say a Radeon). Your main display gets hardware acceleration and you secondary gets umm...uhhhh...anyone see the problem here?
post #7 of 192
I assume that the same is true of my G3-450 iMacs...sluggish forever.

Hmm, I wounder what Apple is going to do about that class action?
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post #8 of 192
I have a radeon 32mb card in my 500 MHz G4 Cube - does this mean my machine is supported supported?
post #9 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by macanoid:
<strong>I have a radeon 32mb card in my 500 MHz G4 Cube - does this mean my machine is supported supported?</strong><hr></blockquote>

YES!
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post #10 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
<strong>I assume that the same is true of my G3-450 iMacs...sluggish forever.

Hmm, I wounder what Apple is going to do about that class action?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Class Action won't work. Apple never promised you blazing Video Performance.
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post #11 of 192
You're telling me that the UI requires more horsepower than most FPSs require?

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post #12 of 192
Time to do some digging in old threads (even pre-blackout) when the rumor loonies were spouting all kinds of non-sense about RAYCER CHIPS for the UI, I shouted up and down far and wide that UI improvements would come in the form of a tight OpenGL integration that let the videocard already in use do a lot more of the work.

Raycer just bore it's fruit. There you go.

Looks like iMacs (g3) and iBooks are both dead in the water as far as future speed increases for OSX go. I can't see why anyone would buy either machine knowing this. Even recently purchased VGA-out TiBooks, won't get any UI help.

Expect Ebay to be very active this summer.
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post #13 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Arty50:
<strong>OK so what happens if you have a dual monitor setup that runs through a PCI card (say a Radeon). Your main display gets hardware acceleration and you secondary gets umm...uhhhh...anyone see the problem here?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have the same question as Arty50... I currently have a G4 tower with AGP, but I also have a second display via PCI and was about to drop $$$ on a THIRD display card for video (Matrox RT-Mac once the OSX drivers are available)... but does that mean that none of the PCI displays will see the accelleration...? will they offer multi AGP boxes...? how does this effect us multi-display users... I am now worried.

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post #14 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

YES!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks a million for the quick reply :-) I feel happier now!
post #15 of 192
post #16 of 192
What about the PowerBook?
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post #17 of 192
I see that I will need to replace my video card in my dp/450. I can't seem to find out if it is agp 2x or not though. Anyone know?
post #18 of 192
I'm a bit anxious about this too... I mean, really... that's a whole lot of people to be all but orphaning... i mean it'll still work, but it better be speeded up some on machines with &lt;32 mb VRAM....
post #19 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by deliverator:
<strong>I see that I will need to replace my video card in my dp/450. I can't seem to find out if it is agp 2x or not though. Anyone know?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Any G4 450Mhz or higher that shipped that way from Apple are AGP. Most G4 400's are too (although some are not)
post #20 of 192
What currently shipping models aren't supported? iBook and which others?

TiBook is 32MB, AGP 4x so that's ok.
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post #21 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>I'm a bit anxious about this too... I mean, really... that's a whole lot of people to be all but orphaning... i mean it'll still work, but it better be speeded up some on machines with &lt;32 mb VRAM....</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd assume that the other general optimizations that will occur with Jaguar will help those with less then 32 MB. In the end though I don't think they'll ever get snappy finder performance. Another reason to upgrade I guess (which is probably what Apples thinking too).
post #22 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>I'm a bit anxious about this too... I mean, really... that's a whole lot of people to be all but orphaning... i mean it'll still work, but it better be speeded up some on machines with &lt;32 mb VRAM....</strong><hr></blockquote>

All but Orphaning? C'mon Jonathan. is it really that bad for you? Even on my G4 400 it is not that bad. It is not a speed demon, but it is more than just usable, it works, it works well, if a bit slower than I would like. The nice part is though, I now have an excuse to buy a new Video card!
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post #23 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>

Class Action won't work. Apple never promised you blazing Video Performance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was making a reference to the existing class action being taken against Apple who appear to have promised suport for G3 onwards in adverts for OS X. But this statement is confirmation of the SUBSEQUENT statement on the Apple web site that they were not looking to support older video cards. I have shortened this quite a lot, I am not going to type out the whole issue verbatum.
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post #24 of 192
Absolutely appauling! I am disgusted with Apple! I mean they can't even support there current users with this Quartz Extreme thing! Not going to make X on my brand new iBook any faster, it's ridiculous! there is no reason a UI needs to be a sluggish as OSX's is, where has their design ethic gone?!! Was going to sacrifice working the way I want to work in 9, just for a little stability... but i think I'll continue to put up with the crashes, thankyou very much, at least i can use 9 without getting so frustrated i want to kick the proverbial out of it. well done Apple. lots of whizzy new things, but the user experience is still crap... beginning to sound alot like another OS manufacturer we all know and &lt;i&gt;love&lt;/i&gt;...
post #25 of 192
Ummmm. what about the previous powerbooks? My 667 ti, less than 2 months old can't use this? You've got to be kidding me Absolutely ridiculous. Not only have all G3 users been left in the dust, a ton of others have too.
post #26 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by doob:
<strong>Absolutely appauling! I am disgusted with Apple! I mean they can't even support there current users with this Quartz Extreme thing! Not going to make X on my brand new iBook any faster, it's ridiculous! there is no reason a UI needs to be a sluggish as OSX's is, where has their design ethic gone?!! Was going to sacrifice working the way I want to work in 9, just for a little stability... but i think I'll continue to put up with the crashes, thankyou very much, at least i can use 9 without getting so frustrated i want to kick the proverbial out of it. well done Apple. lots of whizzy new things, but the user experience is still crap... beginning to sound alot like another OS manufacturer we all know and &lt;i&gt;love&lt;/i&gt;...</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> Histrionics Extreme!
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post #27 of 192
It seems odd that quartz acceleration will be restricted to AGP 2X or better. The multi-card set-up is fairly common in the high-end worlds of mac based video editing, graphic design, and publishing.

I wonder if AGP is actually neccessary (cause it can write directly to memory?) or if was just Apple's way of drawing the line on standard configs that would be able to support these features?

I would think that a fast card with 32-64MB and the neccessary level of OpenGl compliance would probably be able to do the same OpenGL feats as an AGP card.

Maybe all of the originally spec'd PCI cards aren't quartz extreme compatible in their own right (regardless of AGP) and this was a nice way to make the distinction clear? Then again, maybe not: maybe AGP is specifically needed (anybody who understands this stuff care to venture why?). If that's strictly the case, it' still not so bad. You can get two CinemaHD's running off one AGP slot. Do you really need more real-estate than that.

Ok, so that's an insanely expensive set-up, but evenif you've got a hybrid AGP/PCI dual video set-up, you can put your best and biggest display on the AGP and lesser stuff on the PCI. How much accceleration do you need for platelettes?


BTW,

Is anyone here now going to buy an iBook unless it gets updated first?
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post #28 of 192
From Apple's preview page, it doesn't look like 32MB is required, just "recommended for optimum performance."
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post #29 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>Ok, so that's an insanely expensive set-up, but evenif you've got a hybrid AGP/PCI dual video set-up, you can put your best and biggest display on the AGP and lesser stuff on the PCI. How much accceleration do you need for platelettes?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I use both displays to their fullest... both are 19" flat CRTs running at 1600 x 1200 and in some cases running Lightwave modeler in one and Layout in the other... or Pshop in one w/ Illustrator in the other...

FCP uses BOTH displays... and I was on the verge of adding a 3rd just for video preview trough the accellerated Matrox RT-Mac.
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post #30 of 192
You may be fvcked then.

What would be a technical reason why PCI couldn't work? I would think that a Radeon or 2/4MX or better would be good enough on any bus as long as it had enough memory not to have to write back to main memory all the time.

Are there other issues? I don't know anything about this stuff, someone please esplain it to me.
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post #31 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>You're telling me that the UI requires more horsepower than most FPSs require?

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post #32 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by deliverator:
<strong>I see that I will need to replace my video card in my dp/450. I can't seem to find out if it is agp 2x or not though. Anyone know?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Any G4 450Mhz or higher that shipped that way from Apple are AGP. Most G4 400's are too (although some are not)
post #33 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>Ummmm. what about the previous powerbooks? My 667 ti, less than 2 months old can't use this? You've got to be kidding me Absolutely ridiculous. Not only have all G3 users been left in the dust, a ton of others have too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have my sympathy here. Apple should have upgraded these well in advance of this anouncement. It just isn't professional for someone to buy the TOP of the range Powerbook to find that it isn't supported by software after 2 months. The decision to use open GL for acceleration would have been taken a LONG time ago, all machines should have been upgraded as soon as that decision was made. It stinks and Apple would do well not to chese off it's supporters.
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post #34 of 192
It says on there demo page that all ATI radeon agp cards supported,
32mb reccommended,

I'm taking that as my Ti 550 mhz Radeon mobility is supported.

I bloody hope so!!!!!
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post #35 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
<strong>

You have my sympathy here. Apple should have upgraded these well in advance of this anouncement. It just isn't professional for someone to buy the TOP of the range Powerbook to find that it isn't supported by software after 2 months. The decision to use open GL for acceleration would have been taken a LONG time ago, all machines should have been upgraded as soon as that decision was made. It stinks and Apple would do well not to chese off it's supporters.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, upon further examination of the announcement, it looks like either SJ is wrong or the published docs on apple's site are incorrect. It says that any ATI Radeon card is supported, but 32 megs is for optimal performance. Both the 550 and 667 (previous incarnations of the TiBook) have radeon cards w/ 4X AGP graphics. They do only have 16 megs of VRAM, but that's ok as long as I can see SOME benefit from it. Still sucks for others, though.
post #36 of 192
Are there real techincal problems with getting this stuff to work over PCI Video card, or is Apple simply saying what they will and will not support?

Can we expect a hack to allow PCI Radeon and Radeon 7000 cards to work?
post #37 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>It seems odd that quartz acceleration will be restricted to AGP 2X or better. The multi-card set-up is fairly common in the high-end worlds of mac based video editing, graphic design, and publishing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, at least nowadays, the multi-head-on-a-card thing seems to be the preferred way of doing multi-screen setups anyway.


[quote]<strong>
I wonder if AGP is actually neccessary (cause it can write directly to memory?) or if was just Apple's way of drawing the line on standard configs that would be able to support these features?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think the former is correct.
Being able to directly access a part of the system RAM was the killer advantage AGP offered over PCI when it was first introduced (PCI32/66 or 64/33 both offered the same bandwidth as AGP1x). As far as I understand, all the windows in OS X get rendered to an off-screen buffer in system RAM first, and the graphics chip can only directly access that buffer over AGP, not over PCI.


[quote]<strong>Is anyone here now going to buy an iBook unless it gets updated first?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed, the iBooks' popularity probably hasn't exactly increased after those announcements...

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #38 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Arty50:
<strong>OK so what happens if you have a dual monitor setup that runs through a PCI card (say a Radeon). Your main display gets hardware acceleration and you secondary gets umm...uhhhh...anyone see the problem here?</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is not really a problem. in fact, this is exactly how it works for 2D and video acceleration in OS9 and Windows. Different cards can (and do) accelerate different sets of functions, and both only provide their specific sets on the screen(s) they are connected to, respectively.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #39 of 192
All the graphics card supporting Quartz extreme are listed on the Apple site : nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.
post #40 of 192
c'mon apple, this is a piece of cr*p. are they saying this will be standard? correct me if im wrong, but does this mean my cube is unsupported under osx?
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