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post #41 of 192
torifile,

don't get too excited yet.

the radeon mobility lacks hardware T&L. All the supported cards have hardware T&L. The new radeon 7500 mobility has it. we may be getting screwed here if that's what make the difference
post #42 of 192
Isn't one of the things that is improved in Jaguar is the Finder - namely it's multithreading and "snappiness"?

This is not the same as Quartz Extreme.

Quartz extreme is for things like shadows, layers, transperencies etc.

It's another advancement. As always, there are things new software does that your old machine can't do. Nothing's changed.

I would love to make a DVD with iDVD, but my CD-RW isn't supported. It just doesn't do that.

Quartz Extreme is a good thing. Most people with a recent G4 will be able to use it. Better that than not having it at all so as not to tick off the people that can't use it. Right?
post #43 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>torifile,

don't get too excited yet.

the radeon mobility lacks hardware T&L. All the supported cards have hardware T&L. The new radeon 7500 mobility has it. we may be getting screwed here if that's what make the difference</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, the note on the preview page clearly states "any AGP Radeon", which should include the Radeon Mobility too. Not sure how T&L would help here anyway other than accelerating those minimize / restore effects (Genie etc.). Then again, we'll probably find out soon enough.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #44 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by CubeDude:
<strong>c'mon apple, this is a piece of cr*p. are they saying this will be standard? correct me if im wrong, but does this mean my cube is unsupported under osx?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The cube does have an AGP slot, and there is (was?) a Radeon card to stick into that, which should put it on the "supported" side. Apart from that, just because you can't take advantage of "Extreme Quartz" doesn't make your machine unsupported.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #45 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by CubeDude:
<strong>c'mon apple, this is a piece of cr*p. are they saying this will be standard? correct me if im wrong, but does this mean my cube is unsupported under osx?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which vid card do you have?? 32MB is for optimum performance. Cube has 2xAGP, so yes Quartz Extreme will run on the Cube. Got a GeForce2MX in there??
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post #46 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by X704:
<strong>

Any G4 450Mhz or higher that shipped that way from Apple are AGP. Most G4 400's are too (although some are not)</strong><hr></blockquote>Sawtooth 450 here:

AGP
ATI Rage 128
VRAM size: 16MB

That means I am outta luck?

- T.I.
post #47 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by The Installer:
<strong>Sawtooth 450 here:

AGP
ATI Rage 128
VRAM size: 16MB

That means I am outta luck?

- T.I.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Rage128 won't support Extreme Quartz accordig to Apple, but you might be able to replace it for a Radeon (or any other card that physically fits into the cube).

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #48 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:
<strong>

The Rage128 won't support Extreme Quartz accordig to Apple, but you might be able to replace it for a Radeon (or any other card that physically fits into the cube).

Bye,
RazzFazz</strong><hr></blockquote>Thanks, RazzFazz. Just for the record, it's a G4.

Tschuess.

- T.I.
post #49 of 192
I just bought a Radeon PCI @Xmas for my Beige G3 266. This is the orginal 32MB DDR.

Will I see some Quartz Extreme acceration that isn't AGP specific? That's all that I ask for.

My mom's iMac DV SE 1999 on the other hand is outa luck, but X on her computer is snappy. (since I don't have any server running apache/mysql etc).

I just hope to see some Quartz Extreme on my Radeon PCI 21MB DDR that's non AGP specific. (Certain things of Quartz Extreme can Only be done with AGP.
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post #50 of 192
People! Quartz extrememe isn't the only speed boost. Jaguar will be recompiled with the new gcc 3.0.x and be it's freebsd updated. That in itself is a HUGE deal.

That alone should give you a 20% speed boost (without Quartz Extreme).
post #51 of 192
um, doesn't the white (dual USB) iBook, have AGP? I mean, I know the VRAM is only (maniacally laughing and crying) 8mb, but still, could iceBooks use Quartz Extreme? Everyone here who has an iBook knows OS X SUCKS on them. And, I can't imagine how much of a joke OS X (heh, especially 10.0) must be on an old iBook. Like, the first one.

So, will Quartz Extreme work on an iceBook?
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post #52 of 192
My G4 is less than a year old-466 with 4x AGP and ATI Rage 128 pro w/16 Mb VRAM. Now I have to go out and buy a new video card? How much would the least expensive Quartz Extreme ready NVidia 32Mb Card Cost, or ATI Radeon?

All I can say is the OSX 10.2 upgrade had better cost $20, not a full price. Considering we spent $130 on a OS that really wasn't quite there yet I would hope Apple isn't dumb enough to screw us. Its bad enough having to upgrade almost brand new hardware. This all seems so microsoft to me, but I just want to know how much moolah i will be in for to upgrade my Graphics card-thanks...............................
post #53 of 192
Geez you guys, do you want Apple to advance the OS or not? They can't make it run great on every piece of old hardware. It's not like it WON'T WORK on a PowerBook with 16 MB of video RAM - it just won't work as FAST.

If you have one, you'll still see improvement. If you happen to have a new one with 32 MB, you'll see maximum improvement.

It's the price of innovating and advancing, people. Get used to it. (spoken in the nicest tone possible)
post #54 of 192
[quote] Considering we spent $130 on a OS that really wasn't quite there yet I would hope Apple isn't dumb enough to screw us. <hr></blockquote>

Yes, Apple did point a gun to your head and make you pay for OS X... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #55 of 192
Did Apple actually demo any of these features at the conference or just talk about them?
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post #56 of 192
Guys, you can get a 32 MB AGP Radeon for ANY G4 tower with an AGP slot. Your Sawtooth Powermacs can utilize Quartz Extreme, but you may have to buy a new video card..not bad for a two year old system IMO.

And yes, even a cube can handle a Radeon, but not just any Radeon, you've got to get a special Radeon for the cube (the board is shaped differently). But if you're interested in upgrading, then why the hell did you buy a cube? I'm constantly amazed at how many cube owners whine about not being able to upgrade their cubes. For the LOVE OF GOD, you people payed EXTRA for the cube over a nice low end Powermac tower, and now you complain about not being able to upgrade it!??!?! That's fu[ked up!
post #57 of 192
For all those who told me I was being stupid for waiting for the "next big Powerbook revision," I have this to say:


I would be absolutely livid right now had I just cracked and bought a 667 a few weeks ago.

But I didn't.
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post #58 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by GolferGuy1:
<strong>

Yes, Apple did point a gun to your head and make you pay for OS X... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Considering Apple said OS9 is dead, yeh they pretty much did

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #59 of 192
LOL, it's cracking me up to picture some Apple rep holding a gun to some random Mac OS 9 user's head, with an OS X box in the non-gun toting hand.

"You'll upgrade you're beige G3 to OS X if you know what's good for you!"
post #60 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>

Considering Apple said OS9 is dead, yeh they pretty much did

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well before we get all emotional about this, let me point out that Jobs said that OS 9 is dead for developers and specifically said that's not the case with consumers. They haven't dropped support for OS 9, just development. And Classic still ships with all Macs.
post #61 of 192
Hayden, I absolutely agree with you, there has to be a cutoff point with legacy hardware. Anything Beige, is DEFINITELY "old" and should be upgraded. However, the key word is *legacy*

How bout them iBooks? Currently shipping should be supported, don't you think? OS X sucks on iBooks. And even recent PB's and the still-selling iMac CRT can't do Quartz extreme.

MWNY must have some interesting announcements in store.. Oh dangit, anyone looking for an iBook 500 Combo?
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post #62 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>

Considering Apple said OS9 is dead, yeh they pretty much did

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>Great, now would someone please tell Digidesign? (out of kindness to the Windows crowd, you might also let them know that ME isn't the most recent version of Windows any more )
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post #63 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:
<strong>um, doesn't the white (dual USB) iBook, have AGP? I mean, I know the VRAM is only (maniacally laughing and crying) 8mb, but still, could iceBooks use Quartz Extreme? Everyone here who has an iBook knows OS X SUCKS on them. And, I can't imagine how much of a joke OS X (heh, especially 10.0) must be on an old iBook. Like, the first one.

So, will Quartz Extreme work on an iceBook?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.

And to answer your question, it clearly states on the Apple site that no, it will not work because it requires a Radeon or an nVidia card. But that doesn't matter because it won't accelerate much anyway. How often do you sit there with five transparent Terminals and genie them repeatedly while compiling a large project? Because that's basically what Quartz Extreme accelerates. It won't help one iota with window resizing or any of that. Improvements there will come from all of the other massively huge amount of work put into Jaguar. Do you realize how difficult it is to move an entire system to a new compiler? GCC3 even has a different C++ ABI (Application Binary Interface) for Christ's sake! I assume you do not realize this. Then you are not a developer, and none of today's announcements were targetted at you, anyway.

Thanks,
Shadow Knight

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Shadow Knight ]</p>
post #64 of 192
Question re Quartz Extreme:

I have a PM G4 400 AGP(Sawtooth). Does this have AGP 2x?
Also, is the ATI RADEON Mac Edition card OS X-compatible?
Thanks,
Steve <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
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post #65 of 192
Ok, since a lot of people seems so confused the following computers can definitely support Quartz Extreme (though you might have to upgrade the graphics card):

Sawtooth and later Powermacs (ie, one's with AGP graphics)
All Cubes
G4 iMacs
April 2002 Powerbook G4 (DVI)

The following might support Quartz Extreme (though not optimally):

October 2001 Powerbook G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)

If you don't have any of the above models, you don't have access to Quartz Extreme, BUT you still get all the improvements of the new compiler and FreeBSD 4.4. So, any computer, regardless of graphics support, will see some range of improvement from Jaguar.
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post #66 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Shadow Knight:
<strong>

Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

You must be someone who is very easily satisfied.
I have an iBook 14inch 600Mhz with 384Ram and find OS X to be apalling. My friend's 2 year old G4 400mhz with 448MB ram totally kicks my 2 month old iBooks ass.

That is embarassing.

Anyway, Im downloading Jagwire (as The Register says Jobs pronounced it all day) as we speak and will be giving the bastard a run in due time... hopefully sooner rather than later. Lets see how pre-alpha deals with my iBook
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post #67 of 192
People still read the Register? And for that kind of reporting apparently (though it's exactly what I was thinking -- is he saying "Jag-wire?")
post #68 of 192
post #69 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by Shadow Knight:
<strong>

Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.

And to answer your question, it clearly states on the Apple site that no, it will not work because it requires a Radeon or an nVidia card. But that doesn't matter because it won't accelerate much anyway. How often do you sit there with five transparent Terminals and genie them repeatedly while compiling a large project? Because that's basically what Quartz Extreme accelerates. It won't help one iota with window resizing or any of that. Improvements there will come from all of the other massively huge amount of work put into Jaguar. Do you realize how difficult it is to move an entire system to a new compiler? GCC3 even has a different C++ ABI (Application Binary Interface) for Christ's sake! I assume you do not realize this. Then you are not a developer, and none of today's announcements were targetted at you, anyway.

Thanks,
Shadow Knight

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Shadow Knight ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

SHADOWKNIGHT WORKS FOR APPLE!
CONFIRMED

post #70 of 192
[quote]Origi
post #71 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by PookJP:
<strong>For all those who told me I was being stupid for waiting for the "next big Powerbook revision," I have this to say:

I would be absolutely livid right now had I just cracked and bought a 667 a few weeks ago.

But I didn't. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm feeling even happier that I bought a new 800 MHz TiBook last week. My 667 was only four months old, but I'd been wanting a Cinema Display, and when I heard that the newer TiBooks had DVI, I broke down and dropped a whole lot of money on both a new TiBook and a new 22" display.

For anyone who isn't all that worried about Quartz Extreme, I know where you can get a great bargain on a nearly-new 667 MHz TiBook on eBay

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2022308296" target="_blank">eBay item 2022308296 - Titanium PwrBk 667/30G/512M CD-RW/DVD Airport</a>
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post #72 of 192
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>

You must be someone who is very easily satisfied.
I have an iBook 14inch 600Mhz with 384Ram and find OS X to be apalling. My friend's 2 year old G4 400mhz with 448MB ram totally kicks my 2 month old iBooks ass.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's totally strange, because I also have a 2 year old G4 400MHz, but it has 1.75GB of RAM (three 512MB sticks and one 256) and a GeForce2MX that I added in. The 12.1" 600MHz iBook kicks it's ass royally in Mac OS X. No comparison, the iBook is simply much faster. Maybe it's the 14" vs. the 12.1" factor? I remember this sort of thing cropping up when Mac OS X first came out... people with nigh-identical hardware having vastly different results with OS X speed. Very strange, indeed. I assure you, my 600MHz iBook is much, much faster at all non-AltiVec enhanced (which is just about everything, even on Mac OS X) tasks than my 400MHz G4 with 1.75GB of RAM under Mac OS X. Also, many other people who run Mac OS X on their iceBooks report that it runs very snappily compared to such old hardware as the 400MHz G4. So, I suggest that either you are running a non-standard system in some way (Classic doesn't even slow down my iBook, so I won't suggest that's the problem) or you have faulty hardware.

Thanks,
Shadow Knight

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Shadow Knight ]</p>
post #73 of 192
Despite the griping, I think the video card requirements are a good thing. I just bought a radeon for my cube, which sucks because i could certainly think of more necessary uses for the money, but I want to run jaguar when it is out at FULL SPEED. frankly the card it came with never blew my skirt up (rage 128 pro) anyway.

oh yeah, i DIDN'T buy the cube version from some shiester on ebay for tons of money, just a regular radeon that will fit in the cube if you remove the metal part on the end of the card. just a note to the cube owners out there who still have the 128 pro.
post #74 of 192
I'm surprised anyone thinks software from Apple with the word "EXTREME" in the title will work on computers older than two years. Sheesh.
post #75 of 192
[quote] Which vid card do you have?? 32MB is for optimum performance. Cube has 2xAGP, so yes Quartz Extreme will run on the Cube. Got a GeForce2MX in there??

<hr></blockquote>
nope i'm stuck with the Rage 128 Pro, too bad i can't upgrade
post #76 of 192
My X on a G4 400 AGP is also extremely fast.. much much better than I keep hearing people make it out to be. I am saddened that I won't get Extreme Quartz, but X is still SOOOO much better than 9 that I proclaimed 9 dead months ago.
post #77 of 192
Quartz Extreme has the same system requirements as Doom 3.
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</p>
post #78 of 192
Damn people will complain about anything. What they don't realize is that Apple didn't just arbitrarily decide which video cards would be supported by Quartz Extreme, it's a technical limitation of the video cards themselves! For Quartz hardware acceleration to work, a good video card is needed.

Sure Apple might have been able to lessen the extent of Quartz hardware acceleration so that it would work on more video cards, but then it wouldn't be as good. Is that fair to those of us who shelled out extra cash for better video cards?

Do you people complain to Id when Quake runs better on more expensive video cards? Do you complain to Adobe when Photoshop runs faster on a G4 because of Altivec?
post #79 of 192
Now how important is the speed of the chip for jaguar? G4 466-is this a dinasaur already?.....................
post #80 of 192
Yeah you guys need to quite your whinning. This is the tech world, and the fact is that it advances very fast. I would rather have Apple do Quartz Extreme like they are, then not do it all so as to not annoy people who arnt buying at the highend.
Also expect hacks that allow Quartz Extreme to run on 'unsupported' hardware.

PLUS, Jagwire (damn steve pronounciation -check cnet videos) will have a 20% speed boost from GCC3.1 alone On top of that further code optimizations, and finder multithreading.
Your comps are far from unsupported, they just cant run OS X at the fastest it's capable of, and if you bought a lower-end mac you should have expected that.

And yes all Powerbook G4 550/667's will take advantage of QEX. And all G4 towers (except for the very very first generation of G4 towers) and Cubes will, or with a vid card upgrade can take advantage of QEX. So quit your bitchen, and accept progress.
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