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Gen X/Y is broke: 20- and 30-somethings are in a financial mess

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
MSN.com

Quote:
"He wrote me a letter that said, 'You've got to get your life together! Most of these bills aren't even open.' It was a really humbling thing," Wallace says. "But the next time, all my receipts were on a spreadsheet. No one had ever taught me to make a budget or balance a checkbook."

I find it very uncredible to state that someone could get through four years of high school and four years of college and never once be required to take any sort of basic economics course that taught the life skills of balancing a checkbook. Even if it were so, it is still just basic math.

Quote:
As a group, we have failed to get a grip on fiscal reality:

*The median credit-card debt of low- and middle-income people aged 18 to 34 is $8,200.
*The average college debt for recent grads is more than $20,000 and rising.
*People between the ages of 25 and 34 make up 22.7% of all U.S. bankruptcies (but just 14% of the population at large), according to a recent report.

Some of these make sense, like if you are going to go broke from opening a business, you should do it earlier in life versus later. However others just seem to be related to having the latest and greatest gadgets and cars.

Quote:
"We're in a generation that was kind of shielded from a lot of financial responsibilities," says Wong. "Twenty years ago, when you were in college you didn't have a credit card, and (now) all of a sudden we had to take on debt to go to college. Then we get out of college and we have to have that handbag and an iPod," she says. "It is so easy to take on debt."

There was certainly credit available twenty years ago. I know because back then when I was slurping slime and evolving into a higher life form, I know myself and several others applied for bank and store credit and had no problem getting it. Sure we didn't get iPods, instead we got an external fan cooler for our Mac Plus or perhaps a nice new Imagewriter II, but we still had toys to desire. (I'm getting the Imagewriter II, a color and Print Shop Deluxe!!)

Quote:
"This generation feels that somehow or another they're going to figure out some technological advancement that's going to get them out of their financial troubles and outsmart the market," says Manning, who served as adviser to the forthcoming documentary "In Debt We Trust." The documentary paints a picture of national financial crisis stemming from the personal-debt burden.

What a strange bit of reasoning... they can't balance a checkbook but are going to short the stock market or perhaps progam the next big website.

So we know parts of this piece are just fluff and like all generations, the last few have had it easier in some ways and harder in others with regard to finances, what do you think the positives and negatives have been for those in their 20-30's with regard current finances?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 41
Average college debt is $20,000?

Ha! That's one semester for me.
post #3 of 41
You need only look at the piss poor institution that is US Education ...or is that "mis-education"?

I've got friends that are good Teachers that are ready to quit and move on. Parental involvement in teacher life skills are for the most part non-existent. Everyone is keen on racking up student loans and other debt but what's the gameplane for getting out?

This isssue really isn't the Gen X or whatever people. They're in this position because of the Wolf Tickets they were sold from older and supposedly "experienced" adults.
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post #4 of 41
i have an econ degree

how can you teach econ or simple business
when the fastest growing classes at our local college....
ARE REMEDIAL READING, MATH, AND ENGLISH....
we have failed (including permissive parents) our high school students creating a permanent underclass, minimal work ethic and teaching " dependency, and entitlement" when i talk with local professors, they say some in the remedial classes are local valedictorians....i chocked

I know "older" generations always question "younger" generations, but i see this so often.
a friend of mine opened up a local national francise, promising to grow to 2 more. after 6 months closed the doors, because "she couldn't get a responsible work force, employee quality was dismal...tardiness, lazy, ---when do i get a raise--after working 2 weeks--

drugs...dept....accountability...entitlement....de pendency....it will crush our country.
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post #5 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

You need only look at the piss poor institution that is US Education ...or is that "mis-education"?

I've got friends that are good Teachers that are ready to quit and move on. Parental involvement in teacher life skills are for the most part non-existent. Everyone is keen on racking up student loans and other debt but what's the gameplane for getting out?

This isssue really isn't the Gen X or whatever people. They're in this position because of the Wolf Tickets they were sold from older and supposedly "experienced" adults.

I actually think it's more than that. My theory is that 50 years ago, a certain percentage of people that were "college material" went to college. Who knows what that percentage was...let's say 40% nationwide. Actually...here...from HHS:

Quote:
In 1995, 62 percent of high school graduates in this age group had completed some college, and 28 percent had received at least a Bachelors degree.

College attendance rates for this group have increased dramatically since the early 1970s. The percentage of high school graduates completing at least some college rose from 44 percent in 1971 to 62 percent in 1995 (see Figure EA 1.6.A)

College completion, defined here as receipt of a bachelors degree, increased more modestly, from 22 percent of 25- to 29-year-old high school graduates in 1971 to 28 percent of this group in 1995 (see Figure EA 1.6.B)

Let's assume that today's numbers are 70 percent completing some college. Fair enough? Contrast that with 44 percent in 1971. Let's assume that rate was 35% in 1950. OK?

Of course, what these numbers don't show is who is qualified to go to college. What I'm saying is that that number, expressed as a percentage of total students, has not changed and possibly has even gone down. So out of 100 students, let's say 30 are qualified academically to go to college. In 1950, 35 went to school. Today, twice as many go. That's where I think the problem lies. We've created a society where everyone has to go to college to be considered a worthy human being. 50 years ago it was fine to learn a trade or work your way up in retail or go into sales. College is the new high school, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i have an econ degree

how can you teach econ or simple business
when the fastest growing classes at our local college....
ARE REMEDIAL READING, MATH, AND ENGLISH....
we have failed (including permissive parents) our high school students creating a permanent underclass, minimal work ethic and teaching " dependency, and entitlement" when i talk with local professors, they say some in the remedial classes are local valedictorians....i chocked

I know "older" generations always question "younger" generations, but i see this so often.
a friend of mine opened up a local national francise, promising to grow to 2 more. after 6 months closed the doors, because "she couldn't get a responsible work force, employee quality was dismal...tardiness, lazy, ---when do i get a raise--after working 2 weeks--

drugs...dept....accountability...entitlement....de pendency....it will crush our country.

See above, though I'm not dismissing this part of the problem.
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post #6 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

College is the new high school, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

That really hits the nail on the head. That's a money quote I need to remember. I'll mke sure to give you credit though.

I talked with a college professor who teaches chemistry at a nearby college. Its a decent school but not a nationally recognized institution. The failure rate for freshman chemistry was so great that they required a minimum score on the ACT in science order to take it. Grade inflation in high school is so great that simply going by high school grades was a poor predictor of performance.
post #7 of 41
"worthy human being" ????
high school had much more value years ago, college more so

NOW...to get a good job, you must compete with more people, having a highschool diploma is a minimum...
the value of both HS and College has gone DOWN
it wasn't too long ago that an elementary teacher needed only a college degree...NOW you need a masters and they specialize.

My grandmother got a job to help support her family....she had only a 3rd grade education, but SHE
KNEW HER NUMBERS and worked the cash register at walgreens and later for Marshall Fields (downtown chicago) for 18 years. how many 3rd graders could as an adult support a family this way???

NOW teachers in the public school system have told me "im just a baby sitter....pressure is put on me to pass pass pass pass...i feel sorry for the next teacher and myself...it's the way it is no wonder so many of my colleagues drop out of education" this is a direct quote, i'm on a competing school board (none of my teachers say anything like this, many of my teachers have retired or left the public school system just for this reason. they the teachers at my kids school have little faith in public schools and they say the results speak HUGE.

so remedial reading classes grow and grow IN COLLEGE
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post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

so remedial reading classes grow and grow IN COLLEGE

That boggles my mind. How can someone who is illiterate be accepted into college?

If you can't read, you're not college material. At. Any. College.
post #9 of 41
Some thoughts:

There's less time now then there was: people generally work harder/longer, and there's no shortage of things to do in off time.

I simply don't tolerate paper bills. If the financial group in question doesn't have a decent web site, I go elsewhere.

The kids working in the financial markets aren't the same ones who don't know how pay bills. Of course, many of them are still mired in college tuition debt.

Taxes are too high: way too high. The young middle class has been screwed by a compound effect of a tax code that discriminates against young professionals, tax rates that are stupefyingly bloated to begin with, and a glut of boomers preventing career advancement.
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post #10 of 41
Somehow, I can't edit the post I made.

I'd like to also point out that "your" grandmother may have been able to pay her bills on a 3rd grade education, but she wasn't capable of saving any money. Now I have to pay through the teeth so she can go on living in a nursing home and get expensive prescription pill cocktails. In the old days, she would have been living at home with you, not sucking down my hard-earned income.
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post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

That boggles my mind. How can someone who is illiterate be accepted into college?

If you can't read, you're not college material. At. Any. College.

that's the new reality, interesting the "college " person is part of the statistics that failing HS uses to show HOW SUCCESSFUL they are....see how many go to college....no accountability at multiple levels....massive waste....but they will fill those dependency roles....government loves this
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post #12 of 41
Kids ta-day.

I'll tell ya.
post #13 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Kids ta-day.

I'll tell ya.

kids didn't create this......adults did politicians....teacher unions.....government.....apathy
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post #14 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

kids didn't create this......adults did politicians....teacher unions.....government.....apathy

Teacher unions? TEACHER UNIONS?

How about Teacher salaries? How about teacher benefits? How about Teachers' working hours?

Compare the above to 40 years ago and tell me again why the education system sucks?

Teacher salaries and benefits HAVE NOT matched inflation. Teacher working hours and responsibilities have expanded terribly with regard to extra-curricular activities. Music teachers have been fired and English and math teachers are asked to take their place. Assistant coaches are fired and science and history teachers are asked to perform their duties.

Imagine how things would be without unions...
post #15 of 41
There does appear to be a pattern/trend/higher-than-usual-incidents among Gen X/Y of not only financial incompetence, naiveté and general mismanagement, as well as basic economic ignorance...but life mismanagement.

Who is to blame for this? Ultimately it is parents. But parents have some defense in that they have been (at least partially) duped into accepting educational services provided as a monopoly rather than demanding more choice and better services in the overall education of their kids.

I wouldn't mind all of this so much, except that I'll be one of the people that ends up paying for it through regular taxpayer-funded bailouts, subsidies and "safety nets" that continue to encourage and even reward ignorance, incompetence, mismanagement and generally poor, unwise and risky decisions and choices.

post #16 of 41
The public schools are ill prepared to handle the job entrusted to them in many cases. However blame can not be solely placed at the public schools. Society has seemingly adapted to a place where the individual can do as they please. It is FREEDOM BABY!!... Walk through a local shopping mall and the youth wear their shorts down 6 inches or so from where the waist is and 2 sizes too large so things have to be held up with one hand as they stroll. FREEDOM BABY.

FREEDOM at any price has cost us dearly. Gone are the "old timer" tried and true notions of minimum standards and discipline. Gone is common courtesy in the culture of youth today in many circles.

I just can't imagine the task it must be to teach some of these youth today. Now to be fair I am quite sure we must be careful as not to label all youth this way. It is tragic that the decent youth who have good parents and come from a good upbringing have to be caught up in the nightmare that those with no respect nor drive or focus impose on them in public schools.

No wonder so many parents want to send their children to private schools. To get them away from those who have seemingly forsaken life.

I don't know who we blame but I can say that we each have to take a stand for what we are for despite the ills of society.

Not sure if any of you have seen the film "Freedom Writers"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lejN7Ulh10s

It is on DVD and can be rented etc. I highly recommend this film. It is one of the best films I have seen.

Respectfully,

Fellows
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post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

"worthy human being" ????
high school had much more value years ago, college more so

NOW...to get a good job, you must compete with more people, having a highschool diploma is a minimum...
the value of both HS and College has gone DOWN

That is an odd way of looking at it. Perhaps the value has gone down....the value to the employer. But the value to the person with the degree is much higher. If one must have something, it's value is high. We don't disagree here, I just think you've chosen an odd way to look at it.

Quote:

it wasn't too long ago that an elementary teacher needed only a college degree...NOW you need a masters and they specialize.

Not true exactly. Teachers start with Bachelor's Degrees in most cases. Then, most states require credits afterwards. Most get Masters and even go further because that's how they get raises.

Quote:

My grandmother got a job to help support her family....she had only a 3rd grade education, but SHE
KNEW HER NUMBERS and worked the cash register at walgreens and later for Marshall Fields (downtown chicago) for 18 years. how many 3rd graders could as an adult support a family this way???

I think you mean "how many people with a 3rd grade education." Not many.

Quote:

NOW teachers in the public school system have told me "im just a baby sitter....pressure is put on me to pass pass pass pass...i feel sorry for the next teacher and myself...it's the way it is no wonder so many of my colleagues drop out of education" this is a direct quote, i'm on a competing school board (none of my teachers say anything like this, many of my teachers have retired or left the public school system just for this reason. they the teachers at my kids school have little faith in public schools and they say the results speak HUGE.

Depends where you go. My school isn't like that.

Quote:

so remedial reading classes grow and grow IN COLLEGE

Well, that's true. What do you think about my points in the last post, though?



Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Teacher unions? TEACHER UNIONS?

How about Teacher salaries? How about teacher benefits? How about Teachers' working hours?

Compare the above to 40 years ago and tell me again why the education system sucks?

Teacher salaries and benefits HAVE NOT matched inflation.

In general that's true. Even in my district, which is rich and pays well, I don't make squat compared to most of the community. It will take until my 11th year teaching (this is 9) to equal what my brother started at after college. He was a product engineer for Agere systems when he started. Same amount of schooling. Twice the salary. Even now, he works for the US Patent Office. He makes twice what I do. Not complaining..but that's the way it is.

Quote:

Teacher working hours and responsibilities have expanded terribly with regard to extra-curricular activities.

That's not true for the most part...nowhere I've seen anyway. In fact, the opposite is true. 30 years ago teachers ate lunch with their classes and had no prep time. Not so today.

Quote:
Music teachers have been fired and English and math teachers are asked to take their place.

Depends where, but yes.

Quote:
Assistant coaches are fired and science and history teachers are asked to perform their duties.

Usually they are faculty members anyway, so I don't think that really holds up.

Quote:
Imagine how things would be without unions...

I actually don't think they'd be worse. My union is useless. They do nothing and administration does whatever it wants to anyway. PSEA and NEA are useless PACs that send me propaganda every month. For this privilege, I pay $650 a year in dues. I am required to either pay the dues and join, or pay the dues and not join. I have no option.

In fact, the union I belonged to before ended up working against its own teachers. It's kind of like that now as well. We have contractual hours despite being on salary. That means if I'm done teaching at 3:00, I have to stay until the end of the contract day just because. Don't have a meeting and want to come in at 8:45 instead of 8:00? Too bad. You're contractually obligated. I have to sign in and out when leaving. All of this is due to restrictions in the CBA.

And you know what? Without the union, nothing would change. Tenure is a state law, and doesn't mean someone can't be fired anyway. The systems that pay better get the more qualified applicants, so it's sort of a defacto merit-based system as is.
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post #18 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Average college debt is $20,000?

Ha! That's one semester for me.

Don't worry... chicks totally dig guys who live with their parents when they are 28.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

You need only look at the piss poor institution that is US Education ...or is that "mis-education"?

I've got friends that are good Teachers that are ready to quit and move on. Parental involvement in teacher life skills are for the most part non-existent. Everyone is keen on racking up student loans and other debt but what's the gameplane for getting out?

This isssue really isn't the Gen X or whatever people. They're in this position because of the Wolf Tickets they were sold from older and supposedly "experienced" adults.

While the rant is well intentioned, if the teachers want to get out because the students do not want to learn, is that really mis-education?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i have an econ degree

how can you teach econ or simple business
when the fastest growing classes at our local college....
ARE REMEDIAL READING, MATH, AND ENGLISH....
we have failed (including permissive parents) our high school students creating a permanent underclass, minimal work ethic and teaching " dependency, and entitlement" when i talk with local professors, they say some in the remedial classes are local valedictorians....i chocked

I know "older" generations always question "younger" generations, but i see this so often.
a friend of mine opened up a local national francise, promising to grow to 2 more. after 6 months closed the doors, because "she couldn't get a responsible work force, employee quality was dismal...tardiness, lazy, ---when do i get a raise--after working 2 weeks--

drugs...dept....accountability...entitlement....de pendency....it will crush our country.

In my views, this is mostly about percentages. We never have an ideal state. It is entirely possible to get a good education even in the worst schools in this country. If you go to any of these inner-city schools that are flunking out half the students, you will still find some percentage getting their college prep work done, understanding the work and getting on with their lives. They may not have learned enough to get into a first choice school, but there are still certain outcomes that are reflected in being disadvantaged.

Now I do feel you are right in that certain attitudes have changed in terms of percentages to a degree that will be harmful but this is not just true of the younger generation. We have a boatload of boomers ready to show up for retirement 75 lbs overweight, smoking, and wanting the magic pill that will fix their health. These kids are merely reflecting their boomer parents in many regards.

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post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...How about Teacher salaries? How about teacher benefits? How about Teachers' working hours?...

Then why did these people go into teaching?... They KNEW before they ever got into that profession what the pay was, what the hours were, what the benefits were. Did they think things would get better AFTER they took the job?

If people wouldn't accept the crappy teaching jobs, the schools would have to raise pay/benefits to attract the teachers they need. No, really. If the teachers had the intestinal fortitude to actually do something instead f complain all day, then things WOULD change.

There are plenty of other jobs they could be doing.
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post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Don't worry... chicks totally dig guys who live with their parents when they are 28.:lol.

I've decided not to make any huge purchases for a couple of years.

Gonna keep driving the Civic. My twin bro (yes, there are two of us!) has a 2008 Z4 (he was lucky enough to be one of only two new hires a major American company took on in the last two years in its industrial design operations). I have a lot more debt though so it's not wise for me to get a new car. I'm also getting a roommate in a cheap apartment, no expensive furniture or electronics purchases (besides a new MBP when the time comes), no extravagant vacations, I'll brew my own starbucks iced coffee (this seriously is a huge savings right here), and so on. So the goal, obviously, is to pay that off as quickly as possible.

I'm putting 100% of what i'm allowed to contribute into retirement. But other than frugal living for a few years and retirement contributions, I'm not sure what exactly I should be paying off and whether I should also look into investing, etc. Pay off high interest loans first? Consolidate? Start investing on the side? Gah.
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I've decided not to make any huge purchases for a couple of years.

Gonna keep driving the Civic. My twin bro (yes, there are two of us!) has a 2008 Z4 (he was lucky enough to be one of only two new hires a major American company took on in the last two years in its industrial design operations). I have a lot more debt though so it's not wise for me to get a new car. I'm also getting a roommate in a cheap apartment, no expensive furniture or electronics purchases (besides a new MBP when the time comes), no extravagant vacations, I'll brew my own starbucks iced coffee (this seriously is a huge savings right here), and so on. So the goal, obviously, is to pay that off as quickly as possible.

I'm putting 100% of what i'm allowed to contribute into retirement. But other than frugal living for a few years and retirement contributions, I'm not sure what exactly I should be paying off and whether I should also look into investing, etc. Pay off high interest loans first? Consolidate? Start investing on the side? Gah.

If you do all that, you'll be fine. I always paid aggressively on the debt that had the smallest balance first so that I could get it paid off quickly and than roll the money I was paying on that debt into the next so as to accelerate the payoff.

For me when I was first getting started and had a lot of debt, it was psychologically uplifting to see a debt get paid off. Others may have different thoughts and strategies. Any plan is better than NO plan. when I finished dental school and took my first real job I had a negative net worth. That was pretty depressing at the time.

It's the people that do none of that who will suffer.
post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I've decided not to make any huge purchases for a couple of years.

Gonna keep driving the Civic. My twin bro (yes, there are two of us!) has a 2008 Z4 (he was lucky enough to be one of only two new hires a major American company took on in the last two years in its industrial design operations). I have a lot more debt though so it's not wise for me to get a new car. I'm also getting a roommate in a cheap apartment, no expensive furniture or electronics purchases (besides a new MBP when the time comes), no extravagant vacations, I'll brew my own starbucks iced coffee (this seriously is a huge savings right here), and so on. So the goal, obviously, is to pay that off as quickly as possible.

I'm putting 100% of what i'm allowed to contribute into retirement. But other than frugal living for a few years and retirement contributions, I'm not sure what exactly I should be paying off and whether I should also look into investing, etc. Pay off high interest loans first? Consolidate? Start investing on the side? Gah.

you might want to think about investing in some farm land with deep wells, solar panels/batteries, seed stock & some books on organic farming & agriculture in addition to field medicine...learning what diseased meat looks like (just 'cuz you shoot it while it's running away from you doesn't mean it's safe)...oh yeah, some heavy weapons to protect it all from the masses who seemingly have no idea about the veritable shite which is hitting the veritable fan as we all click away at our keyboards.

edit: right-click on "edit post" and "open link in new tab" will allow you to edit your post.

edit edit: Thanks for the advice Mr. Heinlein. You saw this all coming, didn't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein
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post #23 of 41
[take out of context]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

... Society has seemingly adapted to a place where the individual can do as they please. It is FREEDOM BABY!!... Walk through a local shopping mall and the youth wear their shorts down 6 inches or so from where the waist is and 2 sizes too large so things have to be held up with one hand as they stroll. FREEDOM BABY. FREEDOM at any price has cost us dearly. Gone are the "old timer" tried and true notions of minimum standards and discipline....

[/take out of context]

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post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

My twin bro (yes, there are two of us!)

Be afraid, trumpty. Be very, very afraid. As for your comment to little Shawny, you really can be quite horrid at times, trumpty.
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post #25 of 41
Come on these problems aren't just created by lazy parents or teachers.

The US is/has become beholden to commerce not from a manufacturing stronghold but more from a marketing stronghold.

People are in debt because the lure is advertising and media that honestly are quite effective in pushing the message that you should have the right clothes and the right car and live in the right neighborhood.

Parents in many ways have failed their children. Many say "I don't want my child to go through what I did" well that's great if you were abused or molested as a child but if all your ass got was a bit of discipline then you're probably going to raise a problem child.

I remember thinking how I was going to hit the world @ 20 and have all the things I dreamt about. Never mind that I had no experience or inkling what it takes to have success in the real world.

Low pay+ bad habits+ no training = financial mess.


The only way to reverse this trend is for parents to start proactively teaching their kids about money. Everyone has a personal relationship with money. It dictates how they manage and view money. Getting your child ready for the responsiblity of managing money and developing that relationship early is key to averting financial ruin when they can least afford it.
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post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Come on these problems aren't just created by lazy parents or teachers.

The US is/has become beholden to commerce not from a manufacturing stronghold but more from a marketing stronghold.

People are in debt because the lure is advertising and media that honestly are quite effective in pushing the message that you should have the right clothes and the right car and live in the right neighborhood.

Parents in many ways have failed their children. Many say "I don't want my child to go through what I did" well that's great if you were abused or molested as a child but if all your ass got was a bit of discipline then you're probably going to raise a problem child.

I remember thinking how I was going to hit the world @ 20 and have all the things I dreamt about. Never mind that I had no experience or inkling what it takes to have success in the real world.

Low pay+ bad habits+ no training = financial mess.


The only way to reverse this trend is for parents to start proactively teaching their kids about money. Everyone has a personal relationship with money. It dictates how they manage and view money. Getting your child ready for the responsiblity of managing money and developing that relationship early is key to averting financial ruin when they can least afford it.

Surely if advertising was that powerful, it would have been used in all other countries to similar effect. Ergo, it isn't that powerful.

Parents also aren't *that* big part of the equation. I recall research shows that basic, genetic instincts drive kids to primarily pick up their manners and attitudes from peers and equals, not parents. So while parents can and should teach the kids how money *works*, the friends and culture that surrounds them will have a lot of say in whether the kid ends up preferring e.g. self-sufficiency over appearance of wealth accompanied by debt.
post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Then why did these people go into teaching?... They KNEW before they ever got into that profession what the pay was, what the hours were, what the benefits were. Did they think things would get better AFTER they took the job?

If people wouldn't accept the crappy teaching jobs, the schools would have to raise pay/benefits to attract the teachers they need. No, really. If the teachers had the intestinal fortitude to actually do something instead f complain all day, then things WOULD change.

There are plenty of other jobs they could be doing.

Wow.

First, they went into teaching because it's a calling for most people. One is either a teacher or he isn't.

Secondly, you're right...there ARE other jobs. That's why some teachers judge that they'd do better in another job. Can you blame them?

Third, many areas of the country cannot get and keep quality applicants because of both working conditions and salary. Some county systems hire 800 new teachers a year. And they can't just raise pay many times...unless you think money grows on trees.
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post #28 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I've decided not to make any huge purchases for a couple of years.

That would be wise considering you will have just finished law school.

Quote:
Gonna keep driving the Civic. My twin bro (yes, there are two of us!) has a 2008 Z4 (he was lucky enough to be one of only two new hires a major American company took on in the last two years in its industrial design operations). I have a lot more debt though so it's not wise for me to get a new car. I'm also getting a roommate in a cheap apartment, no expensive furniture or electronics purchases (besides a new MBP when the time comes), no extravagant vacations, I'll brew my own starbucks iced coffee (this seriously is a huge savings right here), and so on. So the goal, obviously, is to pay that off as quickly as possible.

Your family seems very big on cars. I know you've added quite a lot to the various car threads in here over the years, so it must be quite the sacrifice. Too bad your brother doesn't live in the same town so you two could be roommates. I'm sure that would be quite fun. Is he fraternal or identical?

Finally... brewing your own coffee?!?! That is quite the austerity program you've got going on there Shawn. I know it is from your own perspective though so congrats on the reduced spending. The terrorists are winning because you brew your own coffee now!

Quote:
I'm putting 100% of what i'm allowed to contribute into retirement. But other than frugal living for a few years and retirement contributions, I'm not sure what exactly I should be paying off and whether I should also look into investing, etc. Pay off high interest loans first? Consolidate? Start investing on the side? Gah.

Well I could give you investment advice but it would all be related to lowering taxes which we know you would never want to do to yourself. I would look into this very soon after you start working though because as a single young man with no mortgage, the government will pretty much put the screws to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Then why did these people go into teaching?... They KNEW before they ever got into that profession what the pay was, what the hours were, what the benefits were. Did they think things would get better AFTER they took the job?

If people wouldn't accept the crappy teaching jobs, the schools would have to raise pay/benefits to attract the teachers they need. No, really. If the teachers had the intestinal fortitude to actually do something instead f complain all day, then things WOULD change.

There are plenty of other jobs they could be doing.

I think you have just explained why the attrition rate is at 50% for the five year mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychester View Post

Be afraid, trumpty. Be very, very afraid. As for your comment to little Shawny, you really can be quite horrid at times, trumpty.

Double the pleasure, double the fun.

Quote:
Come on these problems aren't just created by lazy parents or teachers.

The US is/has become beholden to commerce not from a manufacturing stronghold but more from a marketing stronghold.

People are in debt because the lure is advertising and media that honestly are quite effective in pushing the message that you should have the right clothes and the right car and live in the right neighborhood.

Parents in many ways have failed their children. Many say "I don't want my child to go through what I did" well that's great if you were abused or molested as a child but if all your ass got was a bit of discipline then you're probably going to raise a problem child.

I remember thinking how I was going to hit the world @ 20 and have all the things I dreamt about. Never mind that I had no experience or inkling what it takes to have success in the real world.

Low pay+ bad habits+ no training = financial mess.

The only way to reverse this trend is for parents to start proactively teaching their kids about money. Everyone has a personal relationship with money. It dictates how they manage and view money. Getting your child ready for the responsiblity of managing money and developing that relationship early is key to averting financial ruin when they can least afford it.

While I would say that there is truth to what you say, I would say it goes much deeper than that. One of the principle problems is that many people think of "rich" as having certain brands or a certain size house. The entire middle and lower classes are guilty of this and most parents are simply passing on their financial habits instead of thinking about and modifying them. An asset is something that puts money in your pocket. Most people think of their own home as an asset, but it is just housing and purchasing it just means they have a nice inflation hedge. Let them lose their job, be injured for a bit or even have a life event like a divorce or child occur and suddenly their "asset" is eating them alive.

Poor Shawn probably feels like he has been teased a bit in this thread, but the reality is he will have an asset (hopefully) that will put money in his pocket for his entire life. He may still drive a Civic but on paper he will be worth a lot more than most folks just due to his education.

BTW Shawn, my cousin still drives a Civic even though he has made partner, has a very nice house and also funds his own drag racing team with his two sons.

People get fooled into thinking things are assets when they aren't. They also keep trying to increase their income when it is the most highly taxed financial source out there. Instead they should be thinking about passive income from assets. Timeshares aren't assets. A home is not an asset. Granite countertops are not assets and thinking that because you own these things your financial house is in order isn't the fault of just the marketing folks.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Is he fraternal or identical?

Fraternal, but he looks like me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Finally... brewing your own coffee?!?! That is quite the austerity program you've got going on there Shawn. I know it is from your own perspective though so congrats on the reduced spending. The terrorists are winning because you brew your own coffee now!

Heh. Yeah, everyone comes to class with $4 Starbucks.

A couple of times I showed them up with Starbucks *and* Perrier. Beverage label-whoring at its finest right there.

But actually yeah it's easier for me to just go to Dunkin Donuts and get my $3 large iced coffee (black please). The financial aid people told us how buying coffee 5 times a week, 30 weeks a year, times 3 years can be anywhere from $1350 to $2000, which is more because we're all mostly living off loans and would have to pay back more on that. They said instead of buying that coffee out everyday for just those three years, if you invested the savings from that, over 30 years that little sacrifice is something like tens of thousands of dollars (I believe they said up to $50k, just from coffee!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well I could give you investment advice but it would all be related to lowering taxes which we know you would never want to do to yourself. I would look into this very soon after you start working though because as a single young man with no mortgage, the government will pretty much put the screws to you.

Oh, don't worry. I'm definitely not about paying any more taxes than what the law requires of me. That said, I have a brutal tax final to study for. Yikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

BTW Shawn, my cousin still drives a Civic even though he has made partner, has a very nice house and also funds his own drag racing team with his two sons.

That's cool.

My cousin actually drives funny cars.
post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I actually think it's more than that. My theory is that 50 years ago, a certain percentage of people that were "college material" went to college.

..

50 years ago it was fine to learn a trade or work your way up in retail or go into sales. College is the new high school, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Blame the GI bill. All those returning WW2 vets went to college, and in America, your kids are supposed to be better off than you, so their kids went to college and then got advanced degrees. And then their kids went and got PhDs.

Of course, the secondary schools aren't blameless in all of this, but y'all know more about that than anyone here, I'd wager.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Blame the GI bill. All those returning WW2 vets went to college, and in America, your kids are supposed to be better off than you, so their kids went to college and then got advanced degrees. And then their kids went and got PhDs.

Of course, the secondary schools aren't blameless in all of this, but y'all know more about that than anyone here, I'd wager.

I think the secondary schools are slaves to public opinion. As the public demands more children go to college, so do the schools. Of course, there are vo-tech programs and what not...but I think they are looked down upon in affluent communities.
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post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I think the secondary schools are slaves to public opinion. As the public demands more children go to college, so do the schools. Of course, there are vo-tech programs and what not...but I think they are looked down upon in affluent communities.

I think it's actually worse than that. I think the vo-tech schools are just generally regarded as illegitimate. For the last 50 years, we've been sending kids to college get a "legitimate" liberal arts educationwhether they want it or not. Back when I taught at a big R1 state school, I was always, always deeply saddened by kids who hated every class they took and hated the simple fact that they were wasting their money on an education they neither wanted nor needed. I have never understood why they didn't just go to the local vo tech, learn a trade, and walk into an apprenticeship/assistant deal making more money than they ever would with a degree in "business."
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post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Third, many areas of the country cannot get and keep quality applicants because of both working conditions and salary. Some county systems hire 800 new teachers a year. And they can't just raise pay many times...unless you think money grows on trees.

hmmm.... the school district I live in and pay taxes to wants to raise a bond so that they can (among other things) make a 7 MILLION dollar renovation to the high school football stadium. They already won't buy enough textbooks for each student to have a copy.
Sounds like they have plenty of money, they just have their priorities screwed up on how to spend it. What does a multi-million dollar stadium for the benefit of 11 boys have to do with providing basic education? (yes, I know there are actually more than 11 boys on the football team!)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

hmmm.... the school district I live in and pay taxes to wants to raise a bond so that they can (among other things) make a 7 MILLION dollar renovation to the high school football stadium. They already won't buy enough textbooks for each student to have a copy.
Sounds like they have plenty of money, they just have their priorities screwed up on how to spend it. What does a multi-million dollar stadium for the benefit of 11 boys have to do with providing basic education? (yes, I know there are actually more than 11 boys on the football team!)

Because one of the main reasons alumni give money to schools is because of sports. Yes, I agree that priorities are screwed up, but a $7m renovation to a HS stadium means people will have a good time watching games and will, maybe, donate money once the team wins state 4 years in a row.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #35 of 41
um... I'm talking public school system... high school. There are no alumni donations.

That stadium is totally taxpayer funded. And "having a good time watching games" can be done at a club league game just as easily as at the public high-school. No need to burden the taxpayers for your "good times".

<sarcasm> And if they spent that same 7 mil on teachers salaries and textbooks it would be such a waste! </sarcasm>
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #36 of 41
It's cause of all the Liberal Arts they shove down your throat.

Back in the day we learned how to do REAL things....We didn't sit around playing Elf-games on the computer we did things. It wasn't being smart to simply own a computer, it was smart to build one.

Kids nowadays have little no personal responsibility and need mommy and daddy to bail them out of anything.
Bad grade in school >>> Mommy to the rescue.

It'll be interesting when mommy's little special one is running the country.
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I used to work for Apple back in the 90s before the point Apple <i>should have</i> gone out of business. It would have been better for everyone.
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I used to work for Apple back in the 90s before the point Apple <i>should have</i> gone out of business. It would have been better for everyone.
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post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

um... I'm talking public school system... high school. There are no alumni donations.

Really? Maybe that's because they don't have a very good football stadium?

Quote:
That stadium is totally taxpayer funded.

That's because they don't have any alumni donations. And that's probably because they don't have a good stadium.

Quote:
And "having a good time watching games" can be done at a club league game just as easily as at the public high-school. No need to burden the taxpayers for your "good times".

I don't think you understand that I agree with you. I'm just saying that this is how it works. It sucks, but that's how it is.

Quote:
<sarcasm> And if they spent that same 7 mil on teachers salaries and textbooks it would be such a waste! </sarcasm>

Again, I agree.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #38 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChan View Post

It's cause of all the Liberal Arts they shove down your throat.

I totally agree, man.

Let's just make high school a trade school. You know? Let the science nerds beef up on math and science. Everyone else should learn how to get a job. Wanna learn history? Go to Barnes and f****** Noble, man. Wanna learn about art? Draw on your own free time. English? Save it for Daytona when you're working on that tan.

On the serious side, check out Ken Robinson's TED talk.
post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I totally agree, man.

Let's just make high school a trade school. You know? Let the science nerds beef up on math and science. Everyone else should learn how to get a job. Wanna learn history? Go to Barnes and f****** Noble, man. Wanna learn about art? Draw on your own free time. English? Save it for Daytona when you're working on that tan.

On the serious side, check out Ken Robinson's TED talk.

I sense sarcasm.

Clearly there is a middle road between not teaching calculus until high school & having no art. Art is great, I am a musician myself; I play the saxophone. I just think not teaching real physics or math until college is a waste of the young ones minds in high school.
I am a "retired" software engineer.
I used to work for Apple back in the 90s before the point Apple <i>should have</i> gone out of business. It would have been better for everyone.
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I am a "retired" software engineer.
I used to work for Apple back in the 90s before the point Apple <i>should have</i> gone out of business. It would have been better for everyone.
Reply
post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

hmmm.... the school district I live in and pay taxes to wants to raise a bond so that they can (among other things) make a 7 MILLION dollar renovation to the high school football stadium. They already won't buy enough textbooks for each student to have a copy.
Sounds like they have plenty of money, they just have their priorities screwed up on how to spend it. What does a multi-million dollar stadium for the benefit of 11 boys have to do with providing basic education? (yes, I know there are actually more than 11 boys on the football team!)

You might think I'm in total agreement with you here, but I'm not. I imagine that school is putting in artificial turf? A lot of schools are doing that now, as in the long run it's arguably less expensive. As for the benefit of 11 people, well one can say it benefits the community. Football is a way of life in Texas.

The flip side of that is: Schools loves to spend money on things not directly related to education. TV studios, olympic pools, $100 million new schools...the list goes on.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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