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post #41 of 339
My absolute FIRST reaction to this news is "STUPID BRUSHED METAL INTERFACE." More later.

My second reaction is "Wow." Is Apple on the right track or WHAT> lol yes!!!!!!

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: sjpsu ]</p>
post #42 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by PookJP:
<strong>I dig the brushed metal look. The amount of controversy it is causing suprises me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's good news. It's all people can find to complain about.
post #43 of 339
As far as I read on the newversion directory on Apple's web site, there is no mention of version number "10.2".

Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

If so is the case, then maybe Jaguar is "10.5" or a new version scheme is being considered by Apple.

One other thing, any one familiar with FreeBSD 4.4 features? Advantages? Drawback?

Over all I think Apple is on the right track as far as features go. The might be missing on the GUI issues according to the posts I have read so far. Personally, I do not mind the brushed metal interface to the new Applications. I feel that all Apple iApplications are going to get that interface. If you don't like it, you should use the feedback link on Mac OS X page. They do listen. Better yet, if you do have a feedback, ask them to support skins, so everyone would be happy.

My main concern is the Quality control. I don't like hacks and patches. I hope this is not the case. Maybe someone who got those CDs could comment on that? Is it snappy? No more spinning rainbow ? Do you still get that spinning black and white circle from OS 9 in Carbon Apps? Any problem with preferences being saved? Any other hidden features? Such as additions to Show Info... window? New Preferences?

I will upgrade no matter what.

I just want to feel better as far as the user experience goes.
post #44 of 339
Cause we need a little controversy cause it feels so empty without Steve!

JAGUAR KICKS ASS!
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post #45 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>I wonder what that means exactly, though. You already can use Mail to send and receive email on Exchange servers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Last time I checked, Mail can only interface with either POP or IMAP mail servers. Exchange is neither. We're not talking about Outlook Express here, this is different. With Exchange you need an Exchange client that can log onto the Exchange server via IP.

To date, the only client available for Mac has been the MS Outlook Exchange client for Mac (which is different than Outlook Express), and that's only been available for OS 9. They've been less than enthusiastic about creating one for OS X, apparently. But if the new version of Mail can actually interface with an Exchange server, that would solve a lot of problems for me.
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post #46 of 339
My only concern is:

Will all those existing Carbon/Cocoa app break under this new OS or will just keep running....
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post #47 of 339
The brushed metal look... makes everything so... STERILE.

Good lord!

iChat looks like crap.

I REALLY hope it has the ability to accept any icon, smilies, etc like Hotline chat/buddy list. Thats great, you can make any icon you want and everyone sees it.

The bubble chat with more than 2 people is going to be hell and look plain stupid.

For the love of god, I hope we find a way to hack the sh!t out of iChat and add MSN, Yahoo, ICQ, services as well.
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post #48 of 339
iChat doesn't look too shabby in this C|Net video:

<a href="http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html</a>

While I'm here, can people help me figure out what these <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/buonrotto/.Pictures/System%20Preferences.jpg" target="_blank">System Preferences</a> are?

I have:

Personal:
Desktop/ Dock/ General/ International/ Login/ My something?/ Screen Savers

Digital Hub:
Burning/ iPhoto?/ ???/ Addresses?/ iMovie

Hardware:
ColorSync/ Display/ Energy Saver/ Keyboard/ Mouse/ Sound/ Universal Access

Internet and Network:
iTools/ Network/ Quicktime/ Sharing

System:
Users?/ Classic/ Date & time/ Ink/ Software Update/ Speech/ Startup disk

Other:
???

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #49 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by Xaqtly:
<strong>Last time I checked, Mail can only interface with either POP or IMAP mail servers. Exchange is neither. We're not talking about Outlook Express here, this is different. With Exchange you need an Exchange client that can log onto the Exchange server via IP.

To date, the only client available for Mac has been the MS Outlook Exchange client for Mac (which is different than Outlook Express), and that's only been available for OS 9. They've been less than enthusiastic about creating one for OS X, apparently. But if the new version of Mail can actually interface with an Exchange server, that would solve a lot of problems for me.</strong><hr></blockquote>I send and receive email with Entourage everyday from my Exchange server at work. Before that I used Mail.app.

It's possible that your IT people have to set up the Exchange server to allow it - I don't know, but I doubt it, though. Just put in the exchange mail server address as your imap account.

The only thing I can think of is that the "extra" exchange features, like calendar and address book, will be available in Mail.app in 10.2.

But you're right, Outlook is just un-useable from Classic within X.
post #50 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>iChat doesn't look too shabby in this C|Net video:

<a href="http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html</a>

While I'm here, can people help me figure out what these <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/buonrotto/.Pictures/System%20Preferences.jpg" target="_blank">System Preferences</a> are?

I have:

Personal:
Desktop/ Dock/ General/ International/ Login/ My something?/ Screen Savers

Digital Hub:
Burning/ iPhoto?/ ???/ Addresses?/ iMovie

Hardware:
ColorSync/ Display/ Energy Saver/ Keyboard/ Mouse/ Sound/ Universal Access

Internet and Network:
iTools/ Network/ Quicktime/ Sharing

System:
Users?/ Classic/ Date & time/ Ink/ Software Update/ Speech/ Startup disk

Other:
???

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


They are messing with the layout AGAIN??? WHY!!!

And the brushed metal everywhere sucks a giant butt shaft (to exclude really bad words). Although it is now a standard interface in OS X, me wonders if you can switch between aqua standard/brushed metal? Here's to hoping!
post #51 of 339
No, iChat looks quite shabby.
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post #52 of 339
No GUI improvements? I hope he just didn't bother mentioning them because OSX needs improvement in that area..
post #53 of 339
no more beach ball "of death"

This picture is originally from <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=46&t=005935" target="_blank">here</a> by "a holck" at MacNN...


now they have a Aqua "Bubble of Death"...

its pretty and cool looking...

------------------------------------

ยฉ FERRO 2001-2002

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
post #54 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>

That's good news. It's all people can find to complain about. </strong><hr></blockquote>

So true, my friend. These people would resemble a fish out of water, dying for want of oxygen, if they had nothing to complain about.

So there you go guys, bitch on about the brushed metal. Fear the day you can be positive without an asterisk.
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post #55 of 339
All the new goodies are looking extremely cool!!! Both under the hood and new iApps...

Now, regarding the brushed steel look, I kinda like it, or at least don't mind it much as others around here. Maybe Apple should make those iApps skinnable.

Too bad about the ExtremeQuartz thingie not being supported by my first generation TiBook... but other than that, IT ROCKS!!!

:cool:
post #56 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>I send and receive email with Entourage everyday from my Exchange server at work. Before that I used Mail.app.

It's possible that your IT people have to set up the Exchange server to allow it - I don't know, but I doubt it, though. Just put in the exchange mail server address as your imap account.

The only thing I can think of is that the "extra" exchange features, like calendar and address book, will be available in Mail.app in 10.2.

But you're right, Outlook is just un-useable from Classic within X.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, what that means is that your mail admins turned on imap services on your Exchange server. By default imap and pop are turned off. That's because of all the "special" stuff such as calendaring and scheduling and messaging and conferencing etc. that Exchange does, and neither imap nor pop support any of it, which is why you need the dedicated Exchange client if you use any of those features.

And since our company does use all those features, Mail will not work for us unless it specifically supports Exchange services, and not just imap and pop.

Of course this just makes me wonder if somebody told Steve "sure, go ahead and say Mail will work with Exchange servers", knowing that it'll only work with Exchange servers if imap or pop services are turned on.

But at the same time, as you pointed out, you could use the old (current) version of Mail if that were the case, and there would be no need to single it out as an improvement. So I'll be optimistic and assume that when he said "Exchange", he actually meant Exchange services and not just imap or pop.

I have between 700 and 800 Macs I'm going to convert over to OS X, and I don't want any of them to use Classic at all. There are two things holding us up: QuarkXPress and Outlook Exchange. So I'm hoping Apple will pull through with the new version of Mail.

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Xaqtly ]</p>
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post #57 of 339
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
[QB]iChat doesn't look too shabby in this C|Net video:

<a href="http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html</a>

While I'm here, can people help me figure out what these <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/buonrotto/.Pictures/System%20Preferences.jpg" target="_blank">System Preferences</a> are?


Wow, impressive deciphering there!

"iPod" after "iPhoto" in Digital Hub.

"My Addresses" in Personal -- hmmm... no... I'm not sure...

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
post #58 of 339
Might the "Other" be Quartz?
post #59 of 339
post #60 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>Also optional is encrypted iChat with other iChat users.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Does anyone have any info on the type & strength of encryption used?
post #61 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by Xaqtly:
<strong>

Actually, what that means is that your mail admins turned on imap services on your Exchange server. By default imap and pop are turned off. That's because of all the "special" stuff such as calendaring and scheduling and messaging and conferencing etc. that Exchange does, and neither imap nor pop support any of it, which is why you need the dedicated Exchange client if you use any of those features.

And since our company does use all those features, Mail will not work for us unless it specifically supports Exchange services, and not just imap and pop.

Of course this just makes me wonder if somebody told Steve "sure, go ahead and say Mail will work with Exchange servers", knowing that it'll only work with Exchange servers if imap or pop services are turned on.

But at the same time, as you pointed out, you could use the old (current) version of Mail if that were the case, and there would be no need to single it out as an improvement. So I'll be optimistic and assume that when he said "Exchange", he actually meant Exchange services and not just imap or pop.

I have between 700 and 800 Macs I'm going to convert over to OS X, and I don't want any of them to use Classic at all. There are two things holding us up: QuarkXPress and Outlook Exchange. So I'm hoping Apple will pull through with the new version of Mail.

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Xaqtly ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

sounds like you're working at an ad agency. our agency has switched to indesign and left quark behind. there are some trade-offs but i've found i actually like id2.0. it's not too bad and has some features that are much better than quark.
post #62 of 339
P E R F O R M A N C E

I've been scanning reviews on Jaguar, and I've seen all the upcoming features.

One "feature" I was hoping for was snappier performance, even if it's just perceived (i.e., fewer spinning globes of death).

Come on, Apple. I'm a horsepower junkie. If we don't get the G5, how 'bout an OS X Finder snappier than OS 9?
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post #63 of 339
Here's a picture of the System Preferences window:

<a href="http://www.spymac.com/cgi-bin/pictures/index.pl?photo=702" target="_blank">Sys Prefs</a>

I think the icon in the "Other" section in the previous blurry shot is Bluetooth.
post #64 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>P E R F O R M A N C E</strong><hr></blockquote>

erm... multithreaded operations in finder were mentioned, so that takes care of many of the finder performance issues (not to mention that this means a rewrite for much of the finder in better code), GCC3.1 will speed up many things to a lesser degree and assuming you have the hardware, quartz extreme is supposed to be the mythical magic bullet that people have been whining about since OSX public beta.

so I believe the performance issue was addressed at several point in the keynote... or was it because they didn't mention the word "snappier" <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #65 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by HoofHearted:
so I believe the performance issue was addressed at several point in the keynote... or was it because they didn't mention the word "snappier" <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Well, if that's the case, then I'm happy. I guess I've been an engineer too long. If it's not specifically spelled out in the specifications, then it doesn't exist.

If I don't say "the performance will be snappier," when I sell you something, then don't expect it.

Thanks for the clarification.
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post #66 of 339
QuickTime 6.

It's interesting that Apple would not have the license issue dealt with if QT 6 is such an important portion of 10.2. In fact rumors are that this is the major hold up off the release. It seems like the other players in the industry are intentionally slowing Apple's release of products. First the standalone QT 6 and now 10.2. I would think that Apple would have planned for this possibility. It would seem that they would not want to be dependent on some industry body to control their release of products. I'm not sure who would benefit from this delay, but there are other competing video technologies out there from Real and Microsoft.

Seems like poor planning!
post #67 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>maybe Jaguar is "10.5" or a new version scheme is being considered by Apple.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Apple will eventually (maybe not with Jaguar, but soon after) change the name of Mac OS X to something else entirely. Probably still "Mac OS" something, but not ten (or even "X"). The change will come with the big break from 9. 10 (X) just seems to evoke thoughts of "the next version after 9". I think Apple wants everybody to completely forget 9 as soon as possible. They'll probably move to a more Microsoftian naming scheme. Either by years like, "Mac OS 2002", or just random letters like, "Mac OS NM" (the "NM" stands for, "Not Microsoft" or "Next Millenium" or "No Metal").
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post #68 of 339
To me, I think Apple should stop creating this dichotomy between their OS and their hardware. If they're really after the "whole widget" approach, having a special name for the OS beyond "iMac system software" or somesuch is detrimental to the branding of Apple computers as integrated digital hubs. (For technical purposes, builds numbers for the OS should be fine.)

Allen, QT6 has been delayed by the licensing issues with the MPEG-4 codec. Apple said it themselves, so it's not just rumor. But I don't think that's the reason for the wait on 10.2. I think Apple expects the licensing issues to be resolved by the end of summer, plus it gives them time to fully test this system, espeically when they're trying to sync it up to FreeBSD 4.4 and such. I think they want the time to get it really polished but needed to pique interest in the OS, especially with developers now, hence the time frame.

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #69 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>EDIT: see the rightmost button between the text entry box and the message field? Sure as hell looks like a toggle the balloon thing on and off switch to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It most certainly does. I prefer a less obtrusive chat window. If they added "plugins" for other services such as Yahoo and MSN I'd be stoked.
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post #70 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by PookJP:
<strong>I dig the brushed metal look. The amount of controversy it is causing suprises me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> You're not from these boards, are you? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #71 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by PookJP:
<strong>I dig the brushed metal look. The amount of controversy it is causing suprises me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's gotten old, as has the "i" prefix on everything.
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post #72 of 339
I'll take Finder, Rendezvous, noncrashing Mail and a working printing technology. Please pass all instances of brushed metal, iApps and SpinningTearDropOfDeath to the next customer.

I wonder what Moki hinted as the super technology in the kernel? iAOL, or what? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
I bet this will come at $199, can I sell the gimmick parts at e-bay for ยง99? Unused QuartzExtreme Engine for sale, first bid $1,99.

Does the FreeBSD upgrade mean that I can actually get a TCP/IP stack with up-to-date-speed? I hope so!

Any mention of the application data binding hassle? Any improvements there?

I hope Apple did not buy Watson. It might go the same way Soundjam went. They manage to turn nice software into piles of resource hogs and bugs with less function than the original and an ugly interface. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Any improvements interface-wise? Can someone say shelf? Nice to see SLF made it back. Looking at Apples current GUI fashion experiments I tend more and more to use the terminal, which is the only place where I enjoy the single feature of Aqua that makes sense in that context, transparency.

Ah, the most thrilling subject for me is: A Mac rackmount server! :cool:

Unfortunately they will rip your purse for it I guess. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

I'd like to "softwareupdate" my Finder right now, not in fall.
post #73 of 339
Thread Starter 
Howdy, Kate! Nice to see you're still around.

My guess is that Quartz Extreme is the thing moki was referring to, given that his two primary interests are videogames and Snapz Pro.

I'm willing to be surprised, though.
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post #74 of 339
I think you mean, end of Summer, Kate, not Fall. Duh. Get it right.
post #75 of 339
[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>

One other thing, any one familiar with FreeBSD 4.4 features? Advantages? Drawback?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why is FreeBSD 4.4 even worth mentioning while the current version is 4.5 and version 5.0 is in late Beta?

<a href="http://www.freebsd.org/" target="_blank">http://www.freebsd.org/</a>
post #76 of 339
Kate is just dripping with cynicism, isn't she?
post #77 of 339
&gt; &gt; &gt;
Too bad about the ExtremeQuartz thingie not being supported by my first generation TiBook... but other than that, IT ROCKS!!!
&lt; &lt; &lt;

I am highly critical of the interface design philosophy that lies behind Aqua and especially ExtremeQuartz.

One of the beautiful things about Apple's industrial design is its efficiency and minimalism -- this is what makes the TiBook so gorgeous.

But the new "enhancements" in Aqua are actually a hindrance. For instance, the dock takes up too much screen real estate and is too slow to navigate in a hierarchical fashion. Fonts are all anti-aliased, which makes them harder to read; if you turn off the antialiasing, then they are rendered incorrectly on-screen and look really bad.

Everything in Aqua takes up more screen real estate than it should -- dialog boxes, menus, windows. Gone are the useful handles that were all around a window in Platinum.

Menus pop down slower; everything is less responsive. Finder windows in List view with several hundred items or more take 30 seconds or longer to render. This is simply unacceptable. Windows XP is way, way faster.

Open/save dialogs are not navigable by typing the first few letters of the file/foldername. This makes things much more difficult.

And what is Apple's solution? To rev up the interface with even MORE tricked out "Extreme"-ism? To make the main graphics engine require a 3D card with 32 MB of VRAM?

I hate you, Apple... you used to care about the little guy with a 3 year old computer. But now all you care about is "taking advantage of extra processor cycles." But if you do that, the computer doesn't get any faster, it just gets uglier and more complicated, with all this fake "water" looking junk flying and vibrating and pulsing around the screen like some wet acid dream. I don't want to be reminded of my days in high school tripping while in swim class every time I turn my computer on. I just want a fast interface.

Not to mention the idiotic programming that goes into software like iPhoto and iTunes. iPhoto is a piece of junk in the way it organizes your files: it makes a NEW, separate copy of every photo in your collection, and renames them to stupid names like "Roll 4 - 1242" or something. So not only does it suck for a user like me who has thousands of photos in my collection, because it renames and reorganizes all of them in a totally meaningless way, using a "Roll" metaphor that is completely foreign to digital photography and should have died with film, but also because it does not allow you to name your photo files your own way, and because it is horrendously slow, and because it does not allow you to open your photos into Photoshop directly from within it. As for iTunes, it suffers from similar stupidity, but I won't go into all its flaws.

Can you tell I'm a bit frustrated with Apple? Why? Because in a lot of ways OS X is a great thing, but they are departing so much from the original Mac interface and philosophy in ways that are very unwieldy for users like me who possess such lowly and puny computers as a PowerBook G4 550 with 512 megs of RAM. There is no excuse for ANY operating system to run sluggishly on this computer, unless it is poorly programmed with inefficient code and interface design that is simply ridiculous.

If I ever see Steve Jobs in person, I will give him a piece of my mind.

Sincerely
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post #78 of 339
I dont know if its that XP is any faster, I`m sure if you ran OS X on a 2.5 ghz machine with a 533 bus it wouldnt be as slow. Actually i`m fine with the speed of OS X the way it is you have to atleast apprieciate modern multitasking.
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post #79 of 339
[quote] Can you tell I'm a bit frustrated with Apple? <hr></blockquote>

Sounds like you're a bit frustrated about more than just Apple. Give it some time..don't be suprised to see these features "mysteriously" show up. After all little "creature comforts" make a big deal in usuage but you're not going to see Jobs highlight them in a Keynote.
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post #80 of 339
not to get too off topic, but philter, have you even USED iPhoto or iTunes? From the sound of your post, I'd say no. Most of the gripes you had about iPhoto are just plain wrong. Can't open a photo in Photoshop? Ummm, yes you can. Don't be a dolt. Just because your new here doesn't give you an excuse to be stupid... Learn the facts first. Carry on.
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