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Video speed test: 2.5G EDGE iPhone vs. mock 3G HSDPA iPhone - Page 5

post #161 of 259
Aegis, I see that you're here. If you have time... any thoughts?


.
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
post #162 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Nokia haven't had any real competition for some time, they've produced mediocre products that excite only people who get excited by specifications (what's the point of 7.2Mbps per second if your browser experience sucks?) and now Apple is giving them a run for their money.

While I agree about Nokia's mediocre products (I prefer Sony Ericsson's UIQ touch screen interface to Nokia's button and menu infested S60), I don't think your point about speed or the browser is right.

Nokia's latest phones have a Webkit based browser that renders almost identically to the iPhone and you can use the 7.2Mbps tethered to a laptop, which you can't do with an iPhone at all at any speed.

Nokia suck at user interfaces - Apple rule. Once you're past the user interface though you realise there's lots of things missing in the iPhone. Teno said it earlier - what the iPhone does do, it does well. Unfortunately for many people, it's what it doesn't do that rules it out and it's frustrating that some of the things it doesn't do at all are very simple features you expect on even cheap phones these days.

I also wonder how Apple will add features without complicating the interface for people who bought the thing because it was so simple.
post #163 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple won't be including VoIP, but according to the SDK rules 3rd-party developers can create them so long as it only works over WiFi. This will probably be altered as soon as Apple no longer has profit-sharing partners with the carriers.

I'm not sure how that will work though if you can't have 3rd party applications running in the background.

I've a Pirelli DLP-10 dual mode phone now (it was dirt cheap on sipgate.co.uk - £59 unlocked) which is dual GSM and VoIP over wifi. It works great too - I rang my parents in Spain (from the UK) at the weekend on it using VoIP and it was as clear as a mobile and no delay. 12+ minutes cost me 22p. It's a pretty terrible mobile phone - not Motorola kind of terrible but certainly about as averagely terrible as a cheap Nokia.

In order for VoIP to work for incoming calls on the iPhone, there would need to be a daemon running to receive the call. Since the SDK bans that kind of thing, it's only going to happen if Apple adds a VoIP client or relaxes that rule. I suspect they will relax that rule when the next iPhone lands and it's got a decent amount of RAM available in it, unlike the current one.
post #164 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This is from your perspective of what you want. Most consumers don't use the functions you have listed.

Surveys of phone users have found email to be the most used features, generally followed by SMS and internet. Watching video and listening to music are generally pretty far down the list.

Word processing, VoiP calling, video conferencing, OBEX - none of these are even on any survey list of most used features.

Are those American surveys?

I'd be very surprised if more people used email on phones than SMS in Europe and after SMS and Voice, the most used feature on my two kids' phones are taking videos of their friends and "bluetoothing" it to their friends phones. When I told them they couldn't do that on an iPhone, they were just not interested in it. Not that they're getting one - too fragile and too expensive.

It does puzzle me somewhat that you can't even bluetooth a contact on an iPhone to another phone. Come on Apple - that's basic!
post #165 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

While I agree about Nokia's mediocre products (I prefer Sony Ericsson's UIQ touch screen interface to Nokia's button and menu infested S60), I don't think your point about speed or the browser is right.

Nokia's latest phones have a Webkit based browser that renders almost identically to the iPhone and you can use the 7.2Mbps tethered to a laptop, which you can't do with an iPhone at all at any speed.

Nokia suck at user interfaces - Apple rule. Once you're past the user interface though you realise there's lots of things missing in the iPhone. Teno said it earlier - what the iPhone does do, it does well. Unfortunately for many people, it's what it doesn't do that rules it out and it's frustrating that some of the things it doesn't do at all are very simple features you expect on even cheap phones these days.

I also wonder how Apple will add features without complicating the interface for people who bought the thing because it was so simple.

Man this was nice. Great post. Actually I went to Nokia simply because SE said they had no intention of supporting Mac OS in anyway, while Nokia did. S60 can be a bit complicated in the UI but it works quite well. As you said, and I had previoulsy mentioned, what that iPhond does, it does well, as long at it has nothing to do with telephony.

Need to run to Thai food for lunch. I will expand when I get back.
post #166 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It does puzzle me somewhat that you can't even bluetooth a contact on an iPhone to another phone. Come on Apple - that's basic!

I discovered the other day that you can't receive contacts sent via SMS. I just got the source code of a vcard.
post #167 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post

I discovered the other day that you can't receive contacts sent via SMS. I just got the source code of a vcard.

@aegisdesign and Amorya,

I have been saying this since the beginning of this thread and in a few other places. Sad to say, some people simply dismiss what they do not have. The iPhone is clearly missing some of the most basic features, but there are many here that will defend this as smart on Apples part and then these same people will critisize Nokia or another manufacturer has having too many features.

Unbelievable.
post #168 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Uhhhhh... Failed how exactly? As much as I detest all things M$, they are right now the on top but their market share is declining. So which decade are you talking about where M$ failed to catch Apple?




Are you saying that neither Nokia nor SE has the skills to deliver, and if so to deliver what? Right now, it appears that Nokia has the technological advantage over Apple in terms of specifications. Apple has the software high ground. Which do you think will be easier to overcome with a few million thrown around here and there? Nokia has made no attempt, at least that I know of, to put a desktop on their phones as they didn't need to. They did however make the conduits and links to those desktops. This suited their biz model and bottom line. I have visited Nokia's R&D facilities, and spoken with their engineers. They are not worried in the least about what the iPhone has to offer technically as they can match it and in many cases deliver better performance. What is of no interest to them is putting a desktop OS on their phones.

If you can't tell the difference between the quality of Apple's OS and Microsoft's OS then I can't help you. But to everyone else MS's is mediocre at best. It's of poor quality.

The technological advantage that Nokia has is not that significant. Most of it is in the chips produced by third parties, though there is quite a bit of work in doing the RF design in each model. But the point is that that is not an enduring competitive advantage. At some point Apple will gather together enough RF engineers and beat Nokia at its own game, all the while being in front on the software side. Nokia engineers should be very worried. It's exactly that engineering mindset that is their weakness: "Oh we can create it just tell us what the specs are". But the real difficult problems cannot be specified and require things other than plain technical understanding. The fact people find gadgets so hard to use, and increasingly so speaks to this. Nokia doesn't even understand or see the problem, let alone being able to solve it.
post #169 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

While I agree about Nokia's mediocre products (I prefer Sony Ericsson's UIQ touch screen interface to Nokia's button and menu infested S60), I don't think your point about speed or the browser is right.

Nokia's latest phones have a Webkit based browser that renders almost identically to the iPhone and you can use the 7.2Mbps tethered to a laptop, which you can't do with an iPhone at all at any speed.

Nokia suck at user interfaces - Apple rule. Once you're past the user interface though you realise there's lots of things missing in the iPhone. Teno said it earlier - what the iPhone does do, it does well. Unfortunately for many people, it's what it doesn't do that rules it out and it's frustrating that some of the things it doesn't do at all are very simple features you expect on even cheap phones these days.

I also wonder how Apple will add features without complicating the interface for people who bought the thing because it was so simple.

They might have the same rendering engine, but the user interface is very different and the Nokia one is quite unusable. Tethering is besides the point, why have a "smart" phone if you need a laptop to use it. Obviously the question is how usable is the browser stand alone.

I think criticising the iphone for features is pretty premature. Nokia's first versions were missing things and still do. I still can't work out why you can't charge a Nokia phone from USB without an adaptor when it has a USB plug. But yes there are huge holes in the feature set. The one that bothers me the most is the lack of a modem interface (ie "tethering") which due to Apple's pandering to phone companies looks like will not surface for a while.
post #170 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Are those American surveys?

I'd be very surprised if more people used email on phones than SMS in Europe and after SMS and Voice.

I saw a survey from Nokia a few months ago. I cannot find it anymore. It didn't specify what countries were surveyed. The survey asked the most used and most requested features. Email was the top feature, followed by SMS/MMS, and social networking.
post #171 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

They might have the same rendering engine, but the user interface is very different and the Nokia one is quite unusable.

Quite.
Nokia uses Webkit, which renders the page identically to Mobile Safari.
But then they run it through their "MakeItLookLikeAssTM" technology. Which screws with all the fonts and spacing and produces something which hurts your eyes.

It is certainly true that two years ago Sony and Nokia had phones with more features than the iPhone.

For one half of us, that single fact makes the iPhone look dated and under-powered.

But the other half has a different opinion; Having hundreds of features which are badly-implemented and practically unusable is utterly without value.

It's easy to licence a GPS chip and cram it into your phone.
It's much harder to create an application which allows you to locate the nearest dry cleaners, and do it in such an elegant way that your mother could use it.

C.
post #172 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

They might have the same rendering engine, but the user interface is very different and the Nokia one is quite unusable. Tethering is besides the point, why have a "smart" phone if you need a laptop to use it. Obviously the question is how usable is the browser stand alone.

Have you used an E90, or any of the N-Series phones? If not, you can not make a valid judgment and your "facts" become moot. I have used both, and an iPhone and can say that in terms of rendering the images/sites/data. etc....they are about the same. the iPhone has a larger viewing area and the easier zooming function but I am comfortable browsing for the info that I need on both. You again, make the invalid assumption that the iPhone is a "smartphone" which it is not. Until it can store and forward documents, provide more than basic telephony functions, allows OBEX file transfers, allows data manipulation, it will remain an iPod that has a phone.

Quote:
I think criticising the iphone for features is pretty premature. Nokia's first versions were missing things and still do. I still can't work out why you can't charge a Nokia phone from USB without an adaptor when it has a USB plug. But yes there are huge holes in the feature set. The one that bothers me the most is the lack of a modem interface (ie "tethering") which due to Apple's pandering to phone companies looks like will not surface for a while.

Premature? If Apple had marketed it as an iPod with phone, I do not think anyone would have complained, but they came out with this revolutionary smartphone that for the most part is crippled. If you are wondering about things, why doesn't that iPhone support A2DP? Most SE and Nokia's do.
post #173 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Quite.
Nokia uses Webkit, which renders the page identically to Mobile Safari.
But then they run it through their "MakeItLookLikeAssTM" technology. Which screws with all the fonts and spacing and produces something which hurts your eyes.

It is certainly true that two years ago Sony and Nokia had phones with more features than the iPhone.

For one half of us, that single fact makes the iPhone look dated and under-powered.

But the other half has a different opinion; Having hundreds of features which are badly-implemented and practically unusable is utterly without value.

It's easy to licence a GPS chip and cram it into your phone.
It's much harder to create an application which allows you to locate the nearest dry cleaners, and do it in such an elegant way that your mother could use it.

C.


The web browser on Nokia's use SVG to render. Of course it will scale the fonts and graphos. This is what SVG does.
post #174 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I saw a survey from Nokia a few months ago. I cannot find it anymore. It didn't specify what countries were surveyed. The survey asked the most used and most requested features. Email was the top feature, followed by SMS/MMS, and social networking.

To use your standards of proof. If you can not produce proof of this study, then it becomes your opinion.
post #175 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

The technological advantage that Nokia has is not that significant.

Opinion unless you can provide proof.

Quote:
But the point is that that is not an enduring competitive advantage. At some point Apple will gather together enough RF engineers and beat Nokia at its own game, all the while being in front on the software side.

Are you saying Nokia can't do the same?

Quote:
Nokia engineers should be very worried. It's exactly that engineering mindset that is their weakness: "Oh we can create it just tell us what the specs are". But the real difficult problems cannot be specified and require things other than plain technical understanding.

Another opinion. Have you been present at local Nokia meetings where they discussed their ability to do things?

Quote:
The fact people find gadgets so hard to use, and increasingly so speaks to this. Nokia doesn't even understand or see the problem, let alone being able to solve it.

What people are these? Maybe phones in general are to complicated for some people. What do you think?
post #176 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Premature? If Apple had marketed it as an iPod with phone, I do not think anyone would have complained, but they came out with this revolutionary smartphone that for the most part is crippled

I'm not sure why you insist on calling it an iPod with a phone. The iPod is one app among 12 native apps and 1500 web based apps. The iPhone is in many ways is a blank slate ready to use any software designed for it. This is exactly the reason I say you are biased against the iPhone to an extreme.

Simply because it does not do all of the things you would like it to do does not make it a bad phone. Its just not the phone for you.
post #177 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

To use your standards of proof. If you can not produce proof of this study, then it becomes your opinion.

The study exists beyond my opinion. I just cannot find it to link to it.
post #178 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Opinion unless you can provide proof.

The proof is the fact that O2 UK reported the EDGE iPhone being used for data far more than the 3G Nokia N95's on its network.
post #179 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The study exists beyond my opinion. I just cannot find it to link to it.

My point being, that if you can not find a link or something to back up your claim then the point being made is still valid, but if someone else were in the same situation, you would completely invalidate their arguement. Sort of a doublestandard.
post #180 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I'm not sure why you insist on calling it an iPod with a phone. The iPod is one app among 12 native apps and 1500 web based apps. The iPhone is in many ways is a blank slate ready to use any software designed for it. This is exactly the reason I say you are biased against the iPhone to an extreme.

Simply because it does not do all of the things you would like it to do does not make it a bad phone. Its just not the phone for you.

Really?

Try this: take the sim card out of you iPhone and tell me what you are left with. I bet you have a heavier, thinker iPod without phone functionality. With each successive post, it is clear that this is your first dabble into the high-end phone arena, and this is okay. However, for those of use that have used higher end phones since their inception, we have more sophisticated and discerning tastes. This is not a dig against you, but is a glaring contrast to how the phone market is fragmented. For the most part, the US has not received the higer end SE or Nokia phones, and are thus left with a tainted view, but those who have traveled a bit more and have used higher end phones can make a more detailed comparison. It is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with being extreme. It is simply a fact.
post #181 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The proof is the fact that O2 UK reported the EDGE iPhone being used for data far more than the 3G Nokia N95's on its network.

I know you most likely do not have a link for this which is fine. I do remember reading where the CEO of O2 mentioned this but I also remember reading that he had skewed the data to report favorable data usage claims. Also, if I am not mistaken (UK guys weigh in), O2 has a crappy 3G network with very little coverage so if this is correct, the article you pointed out is meaningless simply because it is an unfair and inaccurate test.
post #182 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

The web browser on Nokia's use SVG to render. Of course it will scale the fonts and graphos. This is what SVG does.

You are saying that it makes it look like ass on purpose. Wow those Nokia engineers are world class!

In fact they scored a hat-trick because it scrolls like ass and scales like ass too.

The Nokia browser is a clown car, hilarious to look at but not fit for driving.
It's engine might be Webkit, but the engine is installed upside down and falls out whenever the hooter blows.

C.
post #183 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

You are saying that it makes it look like ass on purpose. Wow those Nokia engineers are world class!

In fact they scored a hat-trick because it scrolls like ass and scales like ass too.

The Nokia browser is a clown car, hilarious to look at but not fit for driving.
It's engine might be Webkit, but the engine is installed upside down and falls out whenever the hooter blows.

C.

Hmmm.......

Not too sure about the ass part but surly something is. I used my Nokia N82 and visited 10 web sites, the basic, CNN, BBC, Yahoo, etc.... They ALL rendered as they were supposed to. Even The BBC site rendered fine. You had to scroll back and forth but the built in scrolling device made this quite easy and most importantly, accurately.

Sooooo.... I am not sure which site you went to but all the one's I went to worked just fine. With this being said, your argument is baseless and well false unless of course you can produce sites (one does not count) that can not be accurately represented by the Nokia browser. As for Safari, compared to Firefox, Safari is crap. Hopefully there will be a mobile version as well.
post #184 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

The web browser on Nokia's use SVG to render. Of course it will scale the fonts and graphos. This is what SVG does.

It doesn't.

The difference is in the font rendering technology mostly. Apple have better fonts and a higher resolution screen so it's always going to look better.

I really don't want to get back into this debate again. It's pointless. There's a new iPhone due probably in a month. Let's see what Apple add and hopefully they fix the silly crap like SMSing vCards mentioned earlier, which is just unbelievable after a year of being available that they've not fixed that.

Thanks all you lot for beta testing it for the last year, I look forward to iPhone 2.0 (but really it's 1.0) supplying all the things it should have had at the start.
post #185 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It doesn't.

The difference is in the font rendering technology mostly. Apple have better fonts and a higher resolution screen so it's always going to look better.

I really don't want to get back into this debate again. It's pointless. There's a new iPhone due probably in a month. Let's see what Apple add and hopefully they fix the silly crap like SMSing vCards mentioned earlier, which is just unbelievable after a year of being available that they've not fixed that.

Thanks all you lot for beta testing it for the last year, I look forward to iPhone 2.0 (but really it's 1.0) supplying all the things it should have had at the start.

@aegis,

Apple does have a higher res screen and all. I was mainly talking about the way the images appear on the screen. I have had only one site that does not render properly on my Nokia, so the post from Carniphage does not make much sense.
post #186 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

@aegis,

Apple does have a higher res screen and all. I was mainly talking about the way the images appear on the screen. I have had only one site that does not render properly on my Nokia, so the post from Carniphage does not make much sense.

No, SVG isn't used to render the images either. It supports SVG but it's not the tech used to render the page.

There's a nice overview of Nokia's S60 Browser (written in 2005!) on http://www.osnews.com/story/12965

Carniphage, I too think you're just wrong. The S60 Browser looks different in the same way Windows' fonts look different to MacOS fonts but it's just different, not necessarily more correct. Browsers on different platforms don't always have to render pixel perfect identically to each other.
post #187 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

No, SVG isn't used to render the images either. It supports SVG but it's not the tech used to render the page.

There's a nice overview of Nokia's S60 Browser (written in 2005!) on http://www.osnews.com/story/12965

Carniphage, I too think you're just wrong. The S60 Browser looks different in the same way Windows' fonts look different to MacOS fonts but it's just different, not necessarily more correct. Browsers on different platforms don't always have to render pixel perfect identically to each other.

@aegis,

Thanks for the info. I have a friend that works for a Swedish company that supplies SVG software to Nokia and the other manufacturers. He was saying that Nokia does use SVG in their browsers. It might now be in the N or E series. I can ask him to see. Now I am curious about this.
post #188 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Thanks for the info. I have a friend that works for a Swedish company that supplies SVG software to Nokia and the other manufacturers. He was saying that Nokia does use SVG in their browsers. It might now be in the N or E series. I can ask him to see. Now I am curious about this.

Nokia's S60 browser uses an SVG plugin, like they do for Flash-lite. As far as I'm aware they don't use it for the entire renderer though.

http://opensource.nokia.com/projects...ser/index.html has an architectural diagram showing how SVG fits in. You wouldn't put it there if the UI made use of the plugin.
post #189 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

@aegis,

Apple does have a higher res screen and all. I was mainly talking about the way the images appear on the screen. I have had only one site that does not render properly on my Nokia, so the post from Carniphage does not make much sense.

Sapporo
"render properly" is all that matters to you? Is it a binary thing? It renders, it does not render?

The Nokia browser uses crappy fonts which only approximate the intended appearance of a website. The lack of proper proportional fonts and anti-aliasing means the you have to zoom in really close to make text readable. This in turn means you can't view a whole page AND read it.
Combine this with the small screen, and a terrible the 4 way pad. And you have an experience which is clunky, slow, and unrewarding. The fact that it looks like ass is not just an aesthetic issue, it is a profoundly important user-interface issue.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj2Ch4gSlig
Compare it to this.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eGZQvfEBYT4

At the end of the day Nokia's engineers have implemented a basic browser. It renders pages. It allows navigation. Then they got up and went home. Mission accomplished.

But no one in their right minds would want to use it in such a crude form. And they don't.
The web-usage statistics bear this out. By December last year, there are more web-hits from the iPhone than the entire Symbian platform. Despite the tiny number of iPhones out there.

Nokia and the others keep making the same mistake. Web browsing became yet another feature they could add onto their ever-growing list of features. They became seduced by a false notion; That by remorselessly adding features, they were innovating.

Real innovation requires you add value to your products. For a feature to have any value at all, ordinary people have to be able to use it.

C.
post #190 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Sapporo
"render properly" is all that matters to you? Is it a binary thing? It renders, it does not render?

The Nokia browser uses crappy fonts which only approximate the intended appearance of a website. The lack of proper proportional fonts and anti-aliasing means the you have to zoom in really close to make text readable. This in turn means you can't view a whole page AND read it.
Combine this with the small screen, and a terrible the 4 way pad. And you have an experience which is clunky, slow, and unrewarding. The fact that it looks like ass is not just an aesthetic issue, it is a profoundly important user-interface issue.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj2Ch4gSlig
Compare it to this.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eGZQvfEBYT4

At the end of the day Nokia's engineers have implemented a basic browser. It renders pages. It allows navigation. Then they got up and went home. Mission accomplished.

But no one in their right minds would want to use it in such a crude form. And they don't.
The web-usage statistics bear this out. By December last year, there are more web-hits from the iPhone than the entire Symbian platform. Despite the tiny number of iPhones out there.

Nokia and the others keep making the same mistake. Web browsing became yet another feature they could add onto their ever-growing list of features. They became seduced by a false notion; That by remorselessly adding features, they were innovating.

Real innovation requires you add value to your products. For a feature to have any value at all, ordinary people have to be able to use it.

C.

The S60 browser is actually very usable - so much so that I've been using it practically every day for the last 13 months. The iPhone browser is great too, but I find the finger navigation far too clunky. Unless you have the smallest fingers, you have to keep zooming in and out to click links, which is time consuming and tedious. I feel a d-pad and cursor are far more reliable and accurate for browsing the internet on a mobile device. It's the very reason we use mice on our computers - the are accurate and precise. Touchscreens are fine for big chunky menus like on the iPhone, but not for the internet.
post #191 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The lack of proper proportional fonts and anti-aliasing means the you have to zoom in really close to make text readable. This in turn means you can't view a whole page AND read it.

It does have proportional fonts and anti aliasing. It has a smaller, lower resolution screen, which is the issue really. Their fonts aren't as nice either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

But no one in their right minds would want to use it in such a crude form. And they don't.
The web-usage statistics bear this out. By December last year, there are more web-hits from the iPhone than the entire Symbian platform. Despite the tiny number of iPhones out there.

Those were US statistics. It's the reverse for Europe, as you'd expect. Apart from that, I suspect the unlimited data plan you get with every iPhone skews the usage more than slightly, whereas most Symbian phones don't have unlimited data.

The O2 MD saying the iPhone was pushing up data usage more than any other phone is a 'No shit Sherlock' moment IMHO. Give people 'free' unlimited data and they'll use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Nokia and the others keep making the same mistake. Web browsing became yet another feature they could add onto their ever-growing list of features. They became seduced by a false notion; That by remorselessly adding features, they were innovating.

If they just wanted to tick a box, they already had Opera so I think you're doing them a disservice there. Starting a port of Webkit back in 2005 was pretty ballsy.
post #192 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It does have proportional fonts and anti aliasing. It has a smaller, lower resolution screen, which is the issue really. Their fonts aren't as nice either.



Those were US statistics. It's the reverse for Europe, as you'd expect. Apart from that, I suspect the unlimited data plan you get with every iPhone skews the usage more than slightly, whereas most Symbian phones don't have unlimited data.

The O2 MD saying the iPhone was pushing up data usage more than any other phone is a 'No shit Sherlock' moment IMHO. Give people 'free' unlimited data and they'll use it.



If they just wanted to tick a box, they already had Opera so I think you're doing them a disservice there. Starting a port of Webkit back in 2005 was pretty ballsy.

I remember now. This was a big deal when Nokia said that they would do this. Some of the Apple Zealots and Nokia faithful were a bit outraged. Saw Nokia as selling out.

Good point aegis.
post #193 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

If they just wanted to tick a box, they already had Opera so I think you're doing them a disservice there. Starting a port of Webkit back in 2005 was pretty ballsy.

I see no balls, only ass.

To my eyes, Webkit or no, Opera looks slightly more usable.

Taking three years to write something that bad is nature's way of saying "scrap it and start again from scratch".

But there's a massive resistance in the tech industry to be *really* ballsy. We all know the best way to fix Windows is to take-off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Likewise Symbian and WinCE are needing the same sort of euthanizing.

Apple *had* to kill-off System-9. But I think they learned that nuking a teetering pile of old technology can bring a ton of benefits.

C.
post #194 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Really?Try this: take the sim card out of you iPhone and tell me what you are left with. I bet you have a heavier, thinker iPod without phone functionality. With each successive post, it is clear that this is your first dabble into the high-end phone arena, and this is okay.


The only apps that need the sim card:

-Phone

-SMS


Apps that don't use the sim card:

-Address Book

-Calendar

-Camera

- Clock

- Calculator

- Notes

- iTunes Store

- iPod

Apps that work with WIFI:

-YouTube

-Stocks

-Google Maps

-Weather

-iTunes Store

-Mail

-Safari

-1500+ Web Apps


Quote:
However, for those of use that have used higher end phones since their inception, we have more sophisticated and discerning tastes. This is not a dig against you, but is a glaring contrast to how the phone market is fragmented. For the most part, the US has not received the higer end SE or Nokia phones, and are thus left with a tainted view, but those who have traveled a bit more and have used higher end phones can make a more detailed comparison. It is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with being extreme. It is simply a fact.


You are putting a very limited label around what sophisticated and high end means. Your label tends to include functions where Nokia and SE phones excel but exclude functions where the iPhone excels. The potential of the iPhone from a software standpoint far far exceeds what Nokia or SE are currently capable of.
post #195 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The only apps that need the sim card:

-Phone

-SMS


Apps that don't use the sim card:

-Address Book

-Calendar

-Camera

- Clock

- Calculator

- Notes

- iTunes Store

- iPod

Apps that work with WIFI:

-YouTube

-Stocks

-Google Maps

-Weather

-iTunes Store

-Mail

-Safari

-1500+ Web Apps





You are putting a very limited label around what sophisticated and high end means. Your label tends to include functions where Nokia and SE phones excel but exclude functions where the iPhone excels. The potential of the iPhone from a software standpoint far far exceeds what Nokia or SE are currently capable of.


Maybe you didn't intend to but you proved my point. The iPhone is an iPod with phone capabilities. Your last post is proof positive of what I have been saying. Take out the sim card and you have an iPod. Thank you for finally seeing what I have been saying all along.

I will say for the last time Tenobell, the things the iPod part of the iPhone does, it does extremely well. I have stated this several times but you seem to ignore it. Hopefully you will get it now. Web browsing on the iPhone is nice simply because of the screen, aegis has pointed this out several times here as well. The media playback facilities are excellent. As a phone, the iPhone simply sucks.
post #196 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

However, for those of use (sic) that have used higher end phones since their inception, we have more sophisticated and discerning tastes. This is not a dig against you,

YES IT IS. STOP IT.

DO NOT REMARK ABOUT OTHER POSTERS OR I WILL PERMA-BAN YOUR ASS.
--Johnny
Reply
--Johnny
Reply
post #197 of 259
What the post says is actually quite true... American's have been shovelled low end phones for a long time now, way behind the more advanced devices we get in Europe and Asia. The iPhone pops up, and in the US it's a roaring success because to the American market, it's a major, high end phone in comparison to what has come before. In Europe and Asia, we shrug our shoulders and say 'next' because we've seen it all before, and expect more.
post #198 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by lundy View Post

YES IT IS. STOP IT.

DO NOT REMARK ABOUT OTHER POSTERS OR I WILL PERMA-BAN YOUR ASS.


Wow.

That's a '10' on the emote-o-meter if ever I saw it.


,
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
post #199 of 259
People like to go on about Apple failing in Europe, but what about their precious Nokia struggling in America, why haven't they being able to translate their world domination into our American market or I guess when it comes to Nokia, it's irrelevant:

"Of course, providing a viable competitor to Apples iTunes means succeeding in the U.S. market as well. Currently, Nokia has just 7% market share in the United States, and its total North America sales accounted for only 2.6% of its overall, global revenues."

http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...apples-iphone/
post #200 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Maybe you didn't intend to but you proved my point. The iPhone is an iPod with phone capabilities. Your last post is proof positive of what I have been saying. Take out the sim card and you have an iPod. Thank you for finally seeing what I have been saying all along.

There are several problems with this line of logic. The first being that their are a line of iPods that don't all serve the same purpose.

The shuffle, nano, or classic bear little resemblance to the iPhone. Outside of media playback all iPods share a few cursory features but don't at all share many others.

The iPod Touch is basically an iPhone with no Phone or SMS. After the SDK and VOiP that distinction will also change.

The iPod Touch is more a PDA than simply a PMP. iPod is one application among several shipped with the device. It will also have access to the products of 20,000 developers and thousands of web based applications.
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