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More unofficial Mac clones up for sale on eBay - Page 4

post #121 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

I'm sorry about that...so let's compare the budget dell to the equivalent mac model...I forget, which mac is that again?

There isn't one. Just a cheapest one.

MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
White iPad (3G) with Wi-Fi | 16GB | Engraved | Blue Polyurethane Smart Cover
White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
White iPad (3G) with Wi-Fi | 16GB | Engraved | Blue Polyurethane Smart Cover
White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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post #122 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

I find it hilarious that Apple's solution to the messy and complicated desktop is external Superdrives, HDDs and hubs. My ancient iMac has an integrated display, which removes two cords: the data cable and power cable. Unfortunately, I have an external HDD which adds two cords: its data cable and power cable.

iMac + wireless keyboard and mouse + 802.11n to AEBS (or Time Capsule) with a NAS or airport drive + printer/scanner combo (like the Lexmark or HP) w/802.11 = 1 cord for power.

Quote:
Even more unfortunate is that the external HDD has been full for many years and I've been in a constant battle with what to delete because I absolutely refuse to buy another external drive. I'm pretty sure I'd be up to three by now, if I bought for necessity. My home-built PC, BTW, has 5 empty HDD bays. I'll never use them all but it's nice to know I could.

Buy a 4 bay NAS or USB enclosure and attach to AEBS.

Quote:
The problem with Apple's offerings is that they cut fuctionality for vain design frills.

The problem with some folks is that they don't upgrade to the latest wireless technologies but whine about wires anyway.

That said, I wouldn't mind a mini class machine with 4 bays that acted as a home server or an aTV class machine with 4 bays that acted as a iNAS.
post #123 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I just ordered two 30.6 GHz iMacs Sunday night for my daughter and my wife,

Wow, is it 2015 already?

But seriously, folks, after seeing a friend's $800 quad-core machine overclocked to 3.2GHz per core with 4GB of RAM and 1.5TB of HD space, I'm seriously starting to look at Newegg for my next "Mac." Do I care that it won't be as small as a $799 Mac mini? Not a bit when it will have more than twice the speed, four times the RAM and over 12x the HD capacity at the same price. Do I care that it will have a couple of more cables than an unexpanded iMac? Nope. Do I care that it's not as sleek as an Apple machine (well, most are sleek except for the Mac Pro)? Not in the least. Do I care that its slow-turning 120mm fans will be a tiny bit louder than a Mac's? A little, but I can live with it. The dark side calls...
post #124 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensonb View Post

There isn't one. Just a cheapest one.

Then doesn't it make sense for people to compare the mini to a budget dell when there's nothing closer to compare?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

iMac + wireless keyboard and mouse + 802.11n to AEBS (or Time Capsule) with a NAS or airport drive + printer/scanner combo (like the Lexmark or HP) w/802.11 = 1 cord for power.

Buy a 4 bay NAS or USB enclosure and attach to AEBS.

The problem with some folks is that they don't upgrade to the latest wireless technologies but whine about wires anyway.

That said, I wouldn't mind a mini class machine with 4 bays that acted as a home server or an aTV class machine with 4 bays that acted as a iNAS.

So let's compare...

On the budget PC side, big internal HD.

On the mac side, time capsule or wireless NAS.

Is the wireless going to be as fast? I doubt it.

And isn't the wireless going to be more (way more?) expensive?

Even with the latest wireless tech, there still seem to be some disadvantages to whine about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Wow, is it 2015 already?

But seriously, folks, after seeing a friend's $800 quad-core machine overclocked to 3.2GHz per core with 4GB of RAM and 1.5TB of HD space, I'm seriously starting to look at Newegg for my next "Mac." Do I care that it won't be as small as a $799 Mac mini? Not a bit when it will have more than twice the speed, four times the RAM and over 12x the HD capacity at the same price. Do I care that it will have a couple of more cables than an unexpanded iMac? Nope. Do I care that it's not as sleek as an Apple machine (well, most are sleek except for the Mac Pro)? Not in the least. Do I care that its slow-turning 120mm fans will be a tiny bit louder than a Mac's? A little, but I can live with it. The dark side calls...

QFT
post #125 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

iMac + wireless keyboard and mouse + 802.11n to AEBS (or Time Capsule) with a NAS or airport drive + printer/scanner combo (like the Lexmark or HP) w/802.11 = 1 cord for power.

Interesting addition. I count up to four cords there, not one.

Quote:
The problem with some folks is that they don't upgrade to the latest wireless technologies but whine about wires anyway.

Not everyone likes so many wireless devices. For one thing, there's a risk of interference. For another, wired connections are almost always faster than wireless. You can keep 802.11n at a theoretical 248Mbps. I'd rather have SATA drives at a theoretical 3Gbps.
post #126 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Thanks for clarifying that it's an assumption with no numbers to back it up.

Just like yours have been.

Quote:
That doesn't change the fact that people buying the mini are getting less at a higher price. For the record, you can buy a DVD burner for about $30 (meaning apple would get it cheaper, plus save the cost of the CD burner). You honestly don't think apple can afford to put one of those in a $599 machine?

I don't know Apple's costs any more than you do. I don't particularly care either.

Apple sells a product, If it is selling within their expectations, then it must be a good value. If it is not, then Apple would have to do something about that.

Apple's level of support for their products is consistently higher than other manufacturers is for theirs. That accounts for some of the reason why Apple charges what they do. Support is expensive. Factor that in when you make your comparisons.

Reliability of Apple's desktops is also consistently, and considerably higher than for other manufacturers. There must be a reason why. Figure that in as well.

And sure, add in another 5% for extra profit, above what the cheap manufacturers can charge for their generic products.

Quote:
And yet, machines without gimmicks outsell macs by a huge margin. Based on the millions of PC sales, there seem to be many more people who want machines without gimmicks (and without the boost in price that seems to come with them).

Please, don't pretend you're clueless, because I know you're not.

The reason for that, as you know, is the OS, and the fact that most people expect PC's because that's what they use in their workplace.

And that has nothing to do with anything other than to show the long hand of IBM, which is the only reason why PC's grew to dominance at all.

But, are you forgetting that Apple's sales are increasing at least three times as fast as the PC industry these days?

Why do you think that is?

Primarily the OS after all. People are getting fed up with Vista, and MS in general. They are more willing to take a chance on that oddball OS, and quirky company.

Quote:
Again, it's not my idea. PC companies have been selling millions (tens of millions? hundreds?) of those machines for years. And regardless of what you think of their idea, you have to admit that it sells on the PC side.

It's because that's what people expect to buy. That doesn't mean that many people prefer to buy that. People are not adventurous. They just continue doing what they've always done. It takes a good push to move them from their path. Good old Newton's Law.

Vista seems to be that push.

As Apple doesn't break out their desktop sales model for model, we might never know the reality of what models do what. But we do know that their sales have zoomed recently, possibly mostly due to the aluminum iMacs, and according to Apple, better sales of the Mac Pro's. But, it's still just a guess.

Quote:
You didn't answer my question, do you think it's a good thing that Apple only ships a computer if they can think of a gimmick to put in? And refuses to sell a basic computer that just runs the apps people need?

If you stop using that stupid "gimmick" word, I might stop laughing long enough to take it seriously.

If you instead, used the more mature term of "features", then I could respond better. I don't see any gimmicks in Apple's products.

Quote:
And yet the buyer isn't limited to what's featured in the ad sheets. If someone wants more than 2 gigs of ram they can get it in a cheap pc (oh no! they have to look beyond the sale flyer!). But not an option on the mini.

Only in some models. I'm sorry, but most of the cheap ones I see do NOT offer 4 Gb as an option. That makes sense, because most people have no idea of what it would mean anyway.

Quote:
I'm not debating how many people care about this, the point is that you can't put as much HD space in a mini. And you can't. I assume that you've changed your argument from "the mini isn't limited" to "who cares if the mini is limited", you're admitting that it is after all?

You're going around in circles. Of course it matters how many people care. That's what marketing is all about.

And, no I'm not changing anything. The same thing is true. most people who get bigger HDDs, on any platform, but external models.

That's something you are trying desperately to ignore.

Quote:
We're talking about whether the mini is more limited with ram and internal HD than PCs in the same price range. You seem to be trying to change the subject.

So can we agree that the mini is more limited with ram and internal HD than PCs in the same price range?

No. You're making an argument that doesn't exist. But you don't realize it.
post #127 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Interesting addition. I count up to four cords there, not one.

1 cord on the iMac.

Do you wish to count the number of cords attached to the internet you are also attached to via 802.11n? but yes, the AEBS needs power and a link to a cable/FiOS modem that also requires power and connection to the fiber or cable. Likewise the printer needs power.

Quote:
Not everyone likes so many wireless devices. For one thing, there's a risk of interference. For another, wired connections are almost always faster than wireless. You can keep 802.11n at a theoretical 248Mbps. I'd rather have SATA drives at a theoretical 3Gbps.

Well gee...if you don't like wireless devices why would you whine about having wires? You wouldn't. One extra cable to a dorbo or firewire enclosure isn't going to make much difference.
post #128 of 330
I think that Apple's lack of response to Psystar is, in part, due to the fact that Apple plans to offer some sort of more-than-Mini, less-than-MacPro in the not-so-distant future. I think they have simply been waiting for adequate market-share growth combined with the continued strength in "switcher" sales to warrant the gamble.

Unfortunately, I think many here will be moaning with whatever choice of trade-offs Apple chooses to bring to market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Look, this is not a machine for the majority of people here, who, I assume, like me, have a professional Mac model with upgradable insides.

For everyone else, the Mini, and iMac is a fine choice. I just ordered two 30.6 GHz iMacs Sunday night for my daughter and my wife, both of whom are thrilled at the prospect of getting rid of their old machines.

We can argue this until the end of time, and not come up with an agreement.

But, remember, I was one of the first people on these boards to state my preference that Apple manufacture an xMac (preferably the one I designed).

I know many users (both Mac and Windows) who are content with their move from a modular desktop to an iMac.

These enthusiast sites really lose sight of what more mainstream users want. It is very similar to visiting audio enthusiast sites where people will accept nothing less than components even though the overall consumer market has long ago voiced their preference for receivers. The arguments are also similar - separate pre-amps (tower) allow adoption of newer formats without the need to replace perfectly adequate amps (displays).
post #129 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

So let's compare...

On the budget PC side, big internal HD.

On the mac side, time capsule or wireless NAS.

And sleek design in an AIO package or a tiny SFF computer with very low noise.

Quote:
Is the wireless going to be as fast? I doubt it.

And isn't the wireless going to be more (way more?) expensive?

Even with the latest wireless tech, there still seem to be some disadvantages to whine about.

Not about WIRES. The whole point of Clive's whine is that OMG Apple designed this sleek AIO that I have to attach all these ugly wires to so i have neither performance or looks.

You can whine about performance of laptop parts vs desktop parts.

You can whine about the performance of 802.11n storage devices vs SATA.

You can whine about the non-upgradability of the iMac and Mini.

You SHOULDN'T whine about wires given that Apple provides a clear mechanism to avoid any beyond a power cord. Yes, wherever your cable modem is will have extra wires to connect drives and wireless access point. But it's not cluttering up your desktop unless you choose to make it so.
post #130 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Look, this is not a machine for the majority of people here [...]

For everyone else, the Mini, and iMac is a fine choice.

So the MacMini is a computer for "everyone else?" Doesn't "everyone else" these days want Hi-Def content? Last I checked, the Mini is still incapable of natively decoding HD... and using software decoding requires more CPU power than its wimpy Core2Duo has to offer. Sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

iMac + wireless keyboard and mouse + 802.11n to AEBS (or Time Capsule) with a NAS or airport drive + printer/scanner combo (like the Lexmark or HP) w/802.11 = 1 cord for power. Buy a 4 bay NAS or USB enclosure and attach to AEBS.

Translation: $$$ + $ + $$ + $$ = $$$$$$$$.

This computer for "everyone" certainly doesn't come with the simplicity that "everyone" can afford. After all, if it's Apple/Steve's vision to give us that kind of simplicity, why wouldn't they bundle wireless keyboards & mice? Verily, the BT KB & MM each wouldn't cost that much extra for Apple to include... So obviously Apple/Steve are obsessed with simplicity/"the future" only so far as they aren't missing out on a couple extra bucks.

Meanwhile, to expect each user to upgrade each of their components to the newest wireless equipment/toys is quite unreasonable. Keyboard, mouse, Time Cap, printer... Starts to add up, doesn't it? And let's not forget the batteries that frequently need to be changed to keep some of those devices powered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The problem with some folks is that they don't upgrade to the latest wireless technologies but whine about wires anyway.

Do you honestly expect every single user to upgrade every component to every wireless technology? If you run out of HDD space, "just" buy another Time Cap, for example? Not quite as easy as you make it sound. Most folks aren't made of money.

-Clive
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post #131 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

So the MacMini is a computer for "everyone else?" Doesn't "everyone else" these days want Hi-Def content? Last I checked, the Mini is still incapable of natively decoding HD... and using software decoding requires more CPU power than its wimpy Core2Duo has to offer. Sad.

There's no problem watching 1080p on a Mini. This issue was discussed here quite a while ago, and resolved. It's not an issue.
post #132 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The whole point of Clive's whine is that OMG Apple designed this sleek AIO that I have to attach all these ugly wires to so i have neither performance or looks.

... and I don't sound like that. Just because we disagree about displays, optical tricks and reality... doesn't make me an oblivious (and superficial) teenage girl. I'm sorry you incorrectly interpret my valid counter-arguments as whining.

-Clive
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post #133 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There's no problem watching 1080p on a Mini. This issue was discussed here quite a while ago, and resolved. It's not an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by everymac.com

For "1920x1080 (1080p) video at 24 frames per second" H.264 HD playback, Apple recommends a minimum MacOS X system of a Power Macintosh G5/2.0 DP or an Intel-based Mac with a 2.0 GHz Intel Core Duo or faster processor, at least 512 MB of RAM, and at least a 128 MB video card.

All Intel-based Mac mini models shipped with at least 512 MB of RAM, and have an "Intel GMA950 graphics processor with 64 MB of DDR2 SDRAM shared with main memory".

This indicates that the Mac mini "Core Duo" 1.83, with a 1.83 GHz Core Duo processor, officially supports 1280x720 (720p) video, but not 1920x1080 (1080p).

Yes, there may be anecdotal evidence of 1080p functioning on a Mac Mini... but that certainly does not prove sufficient operability for all users... and certainly does not render it a non-issue.

-Clive
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post #134 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

But seriously, folks, after seeing a friend's $800 quad-core machine overclocked to 3.2GHz per core with 4GB of RAM and 1.5TB of HD space, I'm seriously starting to look at Newegg for my next "Mac." Do I care that it won't be as small as a $799 Mac mini? Not a bit when it will have more than twice the speed, four times the RAM and over 12x the HD capacity at the same price. Do I care that it will have a couple of more cables than an unexpanded iMac? Nope. Do I care that it's not as sleek as an Apple machine (well, most are sleek except for the Mac Pro)? Not in the least. Do I care that its slow-turning 120mm fans will be a tiny bit louder than a Mac's? A little, but I can live with it.

You're not alone in those sentiments. I know people who are building hackintoshes (who have said they would otherwise buy from Apple if the product existed) and I'm looking at that route as well. And I give f**k-all for what anybody thinks about it too. As I've said, if Apple won't sell it to me, I'll buy it from someone else--and that coming from a Mac user going on 15+ years. Apple's line-up is just flat-out weak right now. There's a freakin' huge, untapped market out there for a Mac tower and people are clamoring for it. I hope like hell Apple doesn't put their hands over their ears and refuse to hear it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

The dark side calls...

I'll see you there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

You SHOULDN'T whine about wires given that Apple provides a clear mechanism to avoid any beyond a power cord.

If only we all lived in an Apple commercial.
post #135 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

Translation: $$$ + $ + $$ + $$ = $$$$$$$$.

Translation: My whine is now about money and not wires because the wire whine has been proven to be clueless.

Hey, here's a clue: whining that macs cost $$$ is dumb given that it's like given. Do I need to insert the usual auto analogy here?

Quote:
This computer for "everyone" certainly doesn't come with the simplicity that "everyone" can afford.

Since when as the iMac been a machine priced for "everyone"? Ah, that's right. Never. Because not everyone can afford even a $599 computer much less an iMac.

Quote:
After all, if it's Apple/Steve's vision to give us that kind of simplicity, why wouldn't they bundle wireless keyboards & mice? Verily, the BT KB & MM each wouldn't cost that much extra for Apple to include... So obviously Apple/Steve are obsessed with simplicity/"the future" only so far as they aren't missing out on a couple extra bucks.

Because not everyone cares about one usb cable connecting keyboard to iMac and one usb cable conecting with mouse to keyboard. If they ONLY provided wireless keyboards and mice I'm sure you'd be whining about that.

Personally, I prefer wired keyboards and mice.

Quote:
Meanwhile, to expect each user to upgrade each of their components to the newest wireless equipment/toys is quite unreasonable. Keyboard, mouse, Time Cap, printer... Starts to add up, doesn't it? And let's not forget the batteries that frequently need to be changed to keep some of those devices powered.

So? If the wires bother you that much then upgrade. Or not. Either way it IS an option to go nearly wireless with the iMac and it was designed that way with 802.11N in every iMac.

Quote:
Do you honestly expect every single user to upgrade every component to every wireless technology? If you run out of HDD space, "just" buy another Time Cap, for example? Not quite as easy as you make it sound. Most folks aren't made of money.

You CAN simply attach a dorbo or a USB drive to a AEBS. You can also stick your printer on there if you don't mind walking to wherever the printer needs to be at that point.

So the total investment for a "wireless" iMac is for a AEBS and the keyboard and mouse. All of which you get to reuse if you upgrade to a new iMac.

So yeah, it IS that simple.
post #136 of 330
eBay already removed the auction, most likely since it violates Apple's software license.
post #137 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

Yes, there may be anecdotal evidence of 1080p functioning on a Mac Mini... but that certainly does not prove sufficient operability for all users... and certainly does not render it a non-issue.

-Clive

If we're talking about the older machines, then it might, or might not. But it's been tried on the 2 GHz Core duo and shown to work. The newer Core 2 machines do work.

EDIT: Forgot to add; I've seen it myself.
post #138 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If we're talking about the older machines, then it might, or might not. But it's been tried on the 2 GHz Core duo and shown to work. The newer Core 2 machines do work.

There is plenty of evidence from a simple Google search to Apple's own Mac Mini spec sheet that clearly support 1080 playback. I think Clive won't believe it until he sets it up himself.
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post #139 of 330
You guys don't read much...

The company is being very open about the limitations. They are also being quite smart about everything. They have disabled automatic update for fear of Apple releasing a brick. You can still update manually and so far it works. Everything is on their site.

This computer is not for Joe Average consumer who won't know what to do if they got bricked in the first place. It's for people who know what they're getting into on the cheap. They even hint at the fact that for people who know where to "get stuff" these limitations aren't a problem. No iLife or auto updates? No problem, go get them you know where...The same place where most hard core Mac fans are getting their music from in the first place. *HINT* It's not the iTunes store.

Of course there are risks and limitations. What? You think you're going to get a Quad Core MacPro Clone for $500 bucks? Get real.

The company is publishing the limitations and has a good product.
post #140 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

You guys don't read much...

The company is being very open about the limitations. They are also being quite smart about everything. They have disabled automatic update for fear of Apple releasing a brick. You can still update manually and so far it works. Everything is on their site.

This computer is not for Joe Average consumer who won't know what to do if they got bricked in the first place. It's for people who know what they're getting into on the cheap. They even hint at the fact that for people who know where to "get stuff" these limitations aren't a problem. No iLife or auto updates? No problem, go get them you know where...The same place where most hard core Mac fans are getting their music from in the first place. *HINT* It's not the iTunes store.

Of course there are risks and limitations. What? You think you're going to get a Quad Core MacPro Clone for $500 bucks? Get real.

The company is publishing the limitations and has a good product.

Has anyone tried to update manually?

If not, we don't know.

What will Software Update make of the hardware, and firmware? If there's an OS update, it looks at those things too.

We do know that there is software that won't work, as well as hardware.

This isn't a real clone. It's, at best, a partial Mac.
post #141 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

This computer is not for Joe Average consumer who won't know what to do if they got bricked in the first place. It's for people who know what they're getting into on the cheap.
[...]
The company is publishing the limitations and has a good product.

If this is for people who know what they are getting into then why are they buying it from Psystar? More to the point, why would they spend $150 for a $129 copy of OS X Leopard that isn't even installed. What Psystar is installed is a hacked OSx86 copy that is freely downloaded from any newsgroup or torrent site. Why would someone who "knows what they are getting into on the cheap" want a machine that costs more money than and requires them to send their HDD back to Psystar with all their personal data on it for an update to 10.5.3.

The only people interested in this machine are some odd non-technical geek that thinks he knows but really doesn't. MacWorld spent $751 for a Psystar Mac that doesn't include any worthwhile warranty, a monitor, keyboard, mouse, or many of the "just works" features of OS X. OSx86 is for tinkerer's hobby machine that Psystar is trying to replace with a novice's nightmare.

In no way is this a good machine.
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post #142 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Has anyone tried to update manually?

Hackintoshs with a functioning Software Updater can get plenty of updates. iLife and iWork updates work fine. System updates, especially ones that require a restart depend on what is beign updated I've had it go both ways. Point updates will DL but won't install. Even doing a manual update from Apple's website won't work, you have wait for the next version to hacked and seeded, but if the disc burning goes well the update usually works pretty well.
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post #143 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If this is for people who know what they are getting into then why are they buying it from Psystar? More to the point, why would they spend $150 for a $129 copy of OS X Leopard that isn't even installed. What Psystar is installed is a hacked OSx86 copy that is freely downloaded from any newsgroup or torrent site. Why would someone who "knows what they are getting into on the cheap" want a machine that costs more money than and requires them to send their HDD back to Psystar with all their personal data on it for an update to 10.5.3.

The only people interested in this machine are some odd non-technical geek that thinks he knows but really doesn't. MacWorld spent $751 for a Psystar Mac that doesn't include any worthwhile warranty, a monitor, keyboard, mouse, or many of the "just works" features of OS X. OSx86 is for tinkerer's hobby machine that Psystar is trying to replace with a novice's nightmare.

In no way is this a good machine.

That's exactly right.

What i'm concerned about is someone who DOESN'T know, buying one of these things, either from them, or from someone else, and thinking it's a plug-n-play device, when it isn't.

Then who will they blame when they have problems, which they will likely have right away.

Will they be given their money back?
post #144 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Hackintoshs with a functioning Software Updater can get plenty of updates. iLife and iWork updates work fine. System updates, especially ones that require a restart depend on what is beign updated I've had it go both ways. Point updates will DL but won't install. Even doing a manual update from Apple's website won't work, you have wait for the next version to hacked and seeded, but if the disc burning goes well the update usually works pretty well.

That's what I'm talking about though. You can't rely on OS updates working. Program updates are different. They rarely probe the machine. But, not all programs work either.
post #145 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, not all programs work either.

So many programs won't even start up. they bounce in the dock a few times and then quit. iTunes Sharing is even spotty. FireFox runs the processor up to 100%. Gigabyte NIC gets only 5MB/s max. DVD player app doesn't work. VLC doesn't work. Et cetera....

I could start from scratch with OSx86 HW that is listed on the their HCL, but as a data server it's fine.

Anyone who'd recommend Psystar to a friend as a low-cost Mac is not a good friend.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #146 of 330
I think everyone here can agree that had the Mac mini been less "mini" from the beginning it could've offered better performance at a more aggressive price point.

Desktop CPU = faster
Desktop RAM = faster and less expensive
Desktop HD = faster, larger and less expensive
Tray loading DVD = faster, compatible with mini DVDs, less expensive
Larger case = more efficient, less expensive fans
Larger case = no need for that silly external power brick
Larger case = less "design" needed to squeeze everything into the box

The tradeoffs would have been footprint, weight and power consumption, but something the size of the PowerMac Cube could've provided all of the above and still been seen as very small. It also would be enough computer for almost everyone. I'm only guessing, but I think the production cost of a Cube2 would be enough less than the current mini that Apple would have no problem hitting the $499 retail price point and still have Apple-like margins.

For those of us craving internal expansion at a consumer price point, well sorry to say it but Steve Jobs really doesn't think there are enough of us to bother with. Actually he probably thinks all desktop computers are dinosaurs waiting for the asteroid to hit. The future is small, light and mobile and his mind has been there for years already.

Apple's new business model is based on getting people to buy a complete new computer as often as possible. Letting people upgrade their CPU easily, letting them add an inexpensive card to give them new capabilities like eSATA or FireWire 3200, letting them upgrade their video card to play newer games, these sort of things prolong the life of a computer which is great for the consumer, but bad for Apple. It's actually bad for Dell and HP too, but they're only just beginning to realize how much.

Like most of us I want an xMac, a relatively small desktop/tower with a couple of slots, a couple of drive bays and commodity desktop components, but I'll probably die of shock if Apple releases one while Steve Jobs is still alive.
post #147 of 330
Maybe I can have them make me a Cinema Display.
2011 13" 2.3 MBP, 2006 15" 2.16 MBP, iPhone 4, iPod Shuffle, AEBS, AppleTV2 with XBMC.
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2011 13" 2.3 MBP, 2006 15" 2.16 MBP, iPhone 4, iPod Shuffle, AEBS, AppleTV2 with XBMC.
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post #148 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Translation: My whine is now about money and not wires because the wire whine has been proven to be clueless.

[blah blah blah]

It's obvious that you care more about retaliating me than forming an intelligent response to any of the valid counter-arguments I propose.

The iMac has always tried to be the "everyman's computer" and Apple's vision for it has always been to epitomize simplistic/"futuristic" home computing. BY THEIR OWN CLAIM, it simplifies computing by cutting the cords. HOWEVER, it necessitates the use of many external dongles for expansion... harddrives, hubs, perhaps a BluRay Drive in a few months... ANY non-user-replaceable upgrade must be attached via wire to the iMac. Sort of defeats the purpose of creating the simplest, cleanest computer there is, does it not?

Noting the irony of this flaw was the only point I was trying to make. Leave it to you to either attempt to write my arguments off as "whining" or blow my statements out of proportion.

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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post #149 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

The iMac has always tried to be the "everyman's computer" and Apple's vision for it has always been to epitomize simplistic/"futuristic" home computing.

I'd argue that the average, low-budget PC tower has been attempting to be the "everyman's computer" for some time by trying to be the most configurable option for the most amount of people, but with desktop sales diminishing as people move toward notebooks and simpler solutions upgradability options are not what the average consumer wants or needs.

You use Blu-ray as an example but that isn't what the average consumer wants or needs so it doesn't fall into the "everyman" category. They "everyman" doesn't upgrade their GPU or overclock their processor or install multiple HDDs for RAID arrays. AIOs, like the iMac and all notebooks are what people are flocking to.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #150 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If we're talking about the older machines, then it might, or might not. But it's been tried on the 2 GHz Core duo and shown to work. The newer Core 2 machines do work.

EDIT: Forgot to add; I've seen it myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There is plenty of evidence from a simple Google search to Apple's own Mac Mini spec sheet that clearly support 1080 playback. I think Clive won't believe it until he sets it up himself.

On the contrary. I'm not closed to being convinced otherwise. In fact, I've been looking in to this more and have seen some evidence going both ways. I think it depends on the source of the HD playback. There's a fellow on MacRumors who insists he cannot play HD content streamed from abc.com, even though he has high-speed internet and a current generation Mac Mini. There are others who state they can output to 1080p displays easily enough though without mention of content playback. There are others still who can both output to 1080p and play continuous HD media.

Information leans favorably towards 1080p playback on current Minis... but I would see it unwise to rule that it works in 100% of cases.

Nevertheless there are more examples of the MacMini's deficiencies making it unsuitable for general use... for example, its inability to play the second best-selling computer game of all time (and tween-favorite) The Sims 2 (which is second, of course, to The Sims) with any visual clarity whatsoever. The game is from 2004, and we're half way through 2008... and The Sims 3 has already been announced. What are the chances the Mac Mini will be able to play it? No doubt millions of tweens will want to play it as well...

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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post #151 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

On the contrary. I'm not closed to being convinced otherwise. In fact, I've been looking in to this more and have seen some evidence going both ways. I think it depends on the source of the HD playback. There's a fellow on MacRumors who insists he cannot play HD content streamed from abc.com, even though he has high-speed internet and a current generation Mac Mini. There are others who state they can output to 1080p displays easily enough though without mention of content playback. There are others still who can both output to 1080p and play continuous HD media.

Information leans favorably towards 1080p playback on current Minis... but I would see it unwise to rule that it works in 100% of cases.

Nevertheless there are more examples of the MacMini's deficiencies making it unsuitable for general use... for example, its inability to play the second best-selling computer game of all time (and tween-favorite) The Sims 2 (which is second, of course, to The Sims) with any visual clarity whatsoever. The game is from 2004, and we're half way through 2008... and The Sims 3 has already been announced. What are the chances the Mac Mini will be able to play it? No doubt millions of tweens will want to play it as well...

Any test that is about playing 1080p should be a local copy, not one that is streamed from the internet. regardless of the internet speed cap your provider is giving you there is no guarantee that you're getting an acceptable throughput from start to finish. There are too many factors to consider. The Mac Mini can play 1080p content, there are tech specs and many posts about it.

As for Sims 2, do the game's system requirements state that an integrated GPU is sufficient for the game? Are you trying this with an Intel-based Mac Mini on a game written for the PPC architecture?

System requirements for The Sims 2 call for Mac OS X v10.3.4 or later, G4/1GHz or faster, 256MB RAM, 4.2GB free hard disk space, ATI Radeon 8500 or Nvidia GeForce2 MX or better 3D graphics with at least 32MB VRAM and DVD drive.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #152 of 330
It's no different than someone buying a VW Touareg instead of a Porsche Cayenne.
post #153 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'd argue that the average, low-budget PC tower has been attempting to be the "everyman's computer" for some time by trying to be the most configurable option for the most amount of people, but with desktop sales diminishing as people move toward notebooks and simpler solutions upgradability options are not what the average consumer wants or needs.

The iMac is Apple's "everyman's computer." Obviously Apple doesn't sell an upgradeable/expandable do-as-you-wish mid-tower, but claims that the iMac is what most people will need. Only those on the "outskirts" should consider anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You use Blu-ray as an example but that isn't what the average consumer wants or needs so it doesn't fall into the "everyman" category...

You don't mean to tell me that you don't foresee Blu-Ray adoption doubling (at least) within a year, do you? I specifically said "in a few months," because I acknowledge that the demand isn't here yet. People will want this though. Software titles (think OS X) will exceed the space of DVDs, solid-state capacity won't cut it and high-speed internet is still too slow for the necessary bandwidth requirements.

Blu-Ray -- in a matter of months -- will become a household requirement, just as DVDs have.

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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post #154 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Any test that is about playing 1080p should be a local copy, not one that is streamed from the internet. regardless of the internet speed cap your provider is giving you there is no guarantee that you're getting an acceptable throughput from start to finish. There are too many factors to consider. The Mac Mini can play 1080p content, there are tech specs and many posts about it.

As for Sims 2, do the game's system requirements state that an integrated GPU is sufficient for the game? Are you trying this with an Intel-based Mac Mini on a game written for the PPC architecture?

System requirements for The Sims 2 call for Mac OS X v10.3.4 or later, G4/1GHz or faster, 256MB RAM, 4.2GB free hard disk space, ATI Radeon 8500 or Nvidia GeForce2 MX or better 3D graphics with at least 32MB VRAM and DVD drive.


Test or not, watching streaming HD content should be well within the capabilities of any modern computer with high-speed internet. So long as it is a commonly practiced activity, no computer should be exempt from such a test. With this statement I am neither arguing for or against the Mini... I'm simply stating that any modern computer should be able to perform activities that are considered commonplace.

As for The Sims 2, either PPC or Intel, the game will barely hobble along. Like I said, it will run... just with extremely unremarkable graphics. Their hands look like spatulas. I've seen some very beautiful in-game scenes... but these are not them. Now I'm likely a bit more particular than the target audience of this game - I'll be the first to admit it - but these views look pretty trashy.

(No more replies tonight. Bed time.)

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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post #155 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Translation: My whine is now about money and not wires because the wire whine has been proven to be clueless.

Wow, you are really being sour for some reason. Clive is right - the iMac is only clean and neat up to a point, and afterwards, it's just as much of a mess or more than a tower. Optical drives, TV tuners, sound cards, that stuff simply isn't done with wireless. Even with the gear you suggest like NAS, Time Machine, wireless printer, etc. when the additional cost for the wireless gear can add up to a significant part of the iMac's price, it's pretty freaking far from competetive versus a simple tower that accommodates that functionality with no extra cost. Wireless kb+mouse are just as much of an opportunity with a tower so that makes no difference.

Not saying AIO is bad. It's great. But once you want to add a lot of stuff to it, it's just silly trying to force it into a role it really wasn't designed to do. Like buying a sports car and spending a lot of money modding it so it gets good performance on a muddy forest trail. Sure, you can do it. You can put a whole file and printing server - like one of them tower-y computers - on the other side of that wireless network! Look, no wires in the iMac! But sometimes it really is wiser to buy an offroad car right off the bat.
post #156 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

The iMac is Apple's "everyman's computer."

Everyman computer for Apple, as defined by the most commonly purchased would probably be the white MacBook. The 'everyman computer" isn't meant to do "everything", if it did then the "everyman" couldn't afford it.

Quote:
You don't mean to tell me that you don't foresee Blu-Ray adoption doubling (at least) within a year, do you?

I have no idea how fast adoption will take place, but I know it will take place. What is the percentage of people who have foregone DVD for Blu-ray? Will this doubling be noticable of a chart of DVD users.

Quote:
Test or not, watching streaming HD content should be well within the capabilities of any modern computer with high-speed internet. So long as it is a commonly practiced activity, no computer should be exempt from such a test. With this statement I am neither arguing for or against the Mini... I'm simply stating that any modern computer should be able to perform activities that are considered commonplace.

But you seem to saying that the Mac Mini is the problem without considering the numerous issues with streaming HD content. I don't care what your ISP gives you, unless you have a business account you aren't being guaranteed any amount of bandwidth and once you are past your ISP you aren't being guaranteed anything. You're blaming the cart before the horse...or something like that. \

Quote:
As for The Sims 2, either PPC or Intel, the game will barely hobble along. Like I said, it will run... just with extremely unremarkable graphics.

But the game wasn't designed for integrated graphics or an Intel CPU. Running it on a GMA950 or under Rosetta is going to muck up any game whose minimum system requirements state otherwise. If you bought a Mac Mini to play games or bought Sims 2 thinking it would play fine I can only suggest you know your product better before buying.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #157 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Wow, you are really being sour for some reason. Clive is right - the iMac is only clean and neat up to a point, and afterwards, it's just as much of a mess or more than a tower. Optical drives, TV tuners, sound cards, that stuff simply isn't done with wireless.

You think the average iMac customer is buying extra optical drives and TV Tuners for their iMac? It's a particular machine for a particular customer. A market is that happens to be growing while PC towers are shrinking.

Quote:
Not saying AIO is bad. It's great. But once you want to add a lot of stuff to it, it's just silly trying to force it into a role it really wasn't designed to do.

The role of the iMac as your run-of-the-mill desktop PC is only being force on this thread.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #158 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

On the contrary. I'm not closed to being convinced otherwise. In fact, I've been looking in to this more and have seen some evidence going both ways. I think it depends on the source of the HD playback. There's a fellow on MacRumors who insists he cannot play HD content streamed from abc.com, even though he has high-speed internet and a current generation Mac Mini. There are others who state they can output to 1080p displays easily enough though without mention of content playback. There are others still who can both output to 1080p and play continuous HD media.

Information leans favorably towards 1080p playback on current Minis... but I would see it unwise to rule that it works in 100% of cases.

Nevertheless there are more examples of the MacMini's deficiencies making it unsuitable for general use... for example, its inability to play the second best-selling computer game of all time (and tween-favorite) The Sims 2 (which is second, of course, to The Sims) with any visual clarity whatsoever. The game is from 2004, and we're half way through 2008... and The Sims 3 has already been announced. What are the chances the Mac Mini will be able to play it? No doubt millions of tweens will want to play it as well...

-Clive

I can't clam that every source is properly sent either.

If a source is encoded with H.264, any Core 2 processor machine should play it without a problem. If not, then something is wrong somewhere.

This isn't a 3D game machine. We all know that.
post #159 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You don't think the average iMac customer is buying extra optical drives and TTV Tuners for their iMac? It's a particular machine for a particular customer. A market is that happens to be growing while PC towers are shrinking.

Are you trying to make some sort of point? I don't get it.

While we're throwing random unrelated facts around, I note that the PC tower market is still many, many times larger than all Mac sales combined.
Quote:
The role of the iMac as your run-of-the-mill desktop PC is only being force on this thread.

Oh no. iMac is the closest to a run-of-the-mill desktop PC among all machines running official OS X. Apple put it in that role by choosing to only offer a desktop laptop, an AIO and a full-blown workstation that costs twice as much. So when, like vinea and Clive were discussing, one of those customers comes up who does want some of these capabilities on top of reasonable desktop performance+price, iMac's the number one suspect in the Apple lineup that is going to have to stretch to do it. Whether that means the user picks up sizable additional expense for the wireless gear, or the iMac grows to look like a fat octopus sitting on the desk with all the crap hanging from it. Now, with a minitower they could just stick the extra parts right in, no mess.
post #160 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Are you trying to make some sort of point? I don't get it.

I edited my question. I had added the word "don't" by mistake.

Quote:
While we're throwing random unrelated facts around, I note that the PC tower market is still many, many times larger than all Mac sales combined.

PCs do sell a lot more and probably always will sell more towers than Apple sell of all their Macs put together. What is your point? Apple sells a higher-end machine to a certain demographic, not the $300 PC with 3 year old HW whose price is supplemented by all the apps ready to ask you for your credit card.

Quote:
Oh no. iMac is the closest to a run-of-the-mill desktop PC among all machines running official OS X.

Now you quantify it as "desktop", fine it is there most popular desktop machine. But it's not their most popular Mac and more people are replacing desktops with notebooks every day. BTW, notebooks are all-in-one, and even more so becasue the keyboard is in their too. The majority has spoken.

Quote:
Whether that means the user picks up sizable additional expense for the wireless gear, or the iMac grows to look like a fat octopus sitting on the desk with all the crap hanging from it. Now, with a minitower they could just stick the extra parts right in, no mess.

No one is debating whether there is a market for an xMac. What is being argued is if the market is big enough to warrant the constant complaining about it. Apple has a choice to make what they want. Some computer companies have cryptic models and have a build option that seems to fit everyone and Apple has gone the other way with a limited number of designs to fit the consumer that they find most beneficial to their bottom line. Or maybe they just don't like gamers. Whatever the reason, it's their choice, but crying foul because they aren't doing what you want is silly.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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