More unofficial Mac clones up for sale on eBay - Page 5

Which is it? You claim AIOs are growing at the expense of towers while others claim laptops are growing at the expense of all desktops.


Unless you desperately need very good color accuracy for graphic design, non-Apple LCDs are far cheaper than Cinema Displays. And note that I wrote "very good," not perfect. I can get a 28" LCD for what Apple asks for a 20" Cinema Display.


It's the machine Apple prices for everyone who's not a power user or a power abuser. I believe the OP wrote "everyman," meaning an average guy who's not very computer literate, not "everyone."


You'll have to excuse me if I don't remember "whining" about cords. Probably because I didn't. In fact, I actually wrote that I don't care about extra cords, as evidenced by the jungle of 50 or so cords next to my desk.

The POINT is that is doesn't. Many devices you claim to require wires are easily wireless and there are Apple products to support them. So the claim that it necessitates the use of dongles for expansion is clearly false. Saying it's more expensive is not a counter to that given that Apple products have traditionally been more expensive.

Thus you choose to ignore HOW to accompish what you say cannot because there is no rejoinder other than you think I'm being mean. You COULD simply address the fact that there ARE wireless devices for all but ONE of your item list. Except, of course, if you do so then your complain has no merit.

The ONLY device in your list that would require an external wired device is a blu-ray drive. Arguably Apple's strategy is to avoid Blu-Ray in favor of iTunes downloads.


Except that it isn't a flaw unless you choose to make it one by not using the product set that Apple provides. Therefore it isn't "irony" but "whining".

Neither everyman nor everyone can afford an iMac. Those that do can likely find the financial resources to make it wireless if they desire to do so. We're talking about an AEBS if you don't mind wired keyboard and mouse.


The OP was whining about cords, hence my post you responded to. If you don't care about wires then there's no point of contention is there?

Unless you somehow don't believe that Apple's design minimizes (largely eliminates) the use of permanently wired devices through the inclusion of Bluetooth and 802.11N in every iMac standard and USB printer and drive support in the AEBS?

Yes, there are components that require wires like a TV tuner. But for the most part you don't need a tangle of wires to make the most common expansions AND Apple strategy is to minimize both the need for additional optical (Blu-Ray) and TV tuners through iTunes.

I'm being "sour" because Clive is picking nits. The guy won't even admit that the mini can play back 1080HD and complains because it can't play games. I've watched 1080p H.264 streams from my dad's mini. It's fully capable of playback and its an older Core Duo.

That it can't play 3D games with anything approaching usable framerates is a given.


That depends on placement. You don't NEED anything more than an AEBS to which you can attach your printer and an external drive.


The difference being desktop footprint and style. If you have a desk where you can hide a tower you can have one usb cable to a hub with all the extras like tuners and minimized clutter. Of course there's no "extra cost" given a tower is cheaper to design and build overall.

Um...why would you want a sound card with an iMac?

I frequent another Mac forum, in another language. I get the vibe that about every second person there has a firewire sound card, driving a pair of active studio monitors, as their desktop audio solution. I don't know how good iMac's audio out is but apparently there's room for improvement with 300+ monitors.

One guy even picked up a soundcard because he had just gotten an iMac and already had cheap multimedia surround speakers with triple analog inputs. It was a sorta weird decision for speakers that cheap, certainly, but he wanted surround for some reason and in the circumstances that was the most direct way to get it.

And then there's the occasional guy who makes music - of course *they* have so much gear that a few more or less wires and boxes in that mess aren't very noticeable.

Sorry, but for the most part, all you did was move the cords some place else. You haven't got rid of them. I have an iMac and it has 4 cords coming out: power, iPod , printer, and mouse (because the scroll ball on the POS Mighty Mouse stopped working). I guess I could plug the printer into the Airport Express, but I don't want to walk to the living room every time I print something.

Ah, another xMac thread. Comedy gold. Nope no one wants an xMac, oops. There's a thriving hackintosh community. Now, lo and behold, some young enterprising entrepreneurs think they can actually make money selling an xMac. Now enter ebay. This has got to be driving Apple crazy.

If they intentionally create updates borking the hackintosh community this will create bad will amongst the hobbyist/geeks(who pose no real threat to Apple). It will also take resources away from actual productive work that could be used for the OS, and ultimately will be circumvented by the hackintosh community. If they sue Pystar based on EULAs and lose, big oops.

Nope, there's no hole in Apple's line-up.

Guys, You cannot satisfy everyone out there. However, I guess some people think they are still living in the late 1990s early 2000s when computers were cheap and full of junk features that you never need. I really believe that DVD and possibly media drives will start to disappear from the "average" computers. Flash drives are getting larger and cheaper by the day and they are more reliable. I know most people here will disagree because they make their living working on computers, remember I said "average". If you make your living working on computers then a one time $2000~$3000 investment in high end computer every 3 years should not be a problem. Most home users need a computer for internet related activities, word processing, and digital photography. Most people prefer to watch movies on their TV screens instead of their computers and that's why Apple released AppleTV, which I think is great device but need further price reduction.
The iMac and Mac Mini are targeted at two different markets. During my 20 years with computers, I came out with the conclusion that RAM and HDD upgrades are waste of money. Adding more RAM will never get the speed gain you think you will (like 1 sec. decrease in web browser lunch is worth it!).

These guys aren't selling an xMac. They're selling an aborted attempt at an xMac.

So far, the only company who could sell an xMac is Apple.

Remote hard drive via Timecapsule. NAS with 802.11N built in might be available. I haven't looked for one. USB or Firewire cable gone.

Bluetooth keyboard and mouse. USB cables gone.

Printer with 802.11g/n. USB cable gone.


So get a printer with a 802.11g/n module capability. The addon network card for Lexmark printers is $49.99 MSRP and plugs into several models. Other printers come with 802.11 built in.

iPod...eventually iPods will sync over wireless USB or 802.11. Until then, yes, you'd need two wires connected to your iMac.

The minimum you need is AEBS but you do end up with cords elsewhere. You can incrementally improve your infrastructure over time to move from partially wireless to completely wireless except for power and removable media (iPods, digital cameras, camcorders, etc).

I'd probably rather push digital out to a AV receiver rather than go the active monitor route. But that's just personal preference but it's hard to avoid wires when we're talking decent audio. One extra FW isn't going to mean much to the look of the desk...although I guess you could stream audio to an airport express and mount your speakers into the walls with no wires showing.

Are you not aware that notebook and iMac marketshare are both increasing while PC tower marketshare is falling? By the way, since we are talking about move from a user assembled, component-based computer to a simpler AIO machine we can add notebooks to the AIO category since they are, in fact, everything one needs in a single package. How much more obvious can it be that the average person just wants something clean and simple to use?

melgross

Per your comment I corrected my earlier post to read:
----
Ah, another xMac thread. Comedy gold. Nope no one wants an xMac, oops. There's a thriving hackintosh community. Now, lo and behold, some young enterprising entrepreneurs think they can actually make money selling an "aborted attempt at an xMac" . Now enter ebay. This has got to be driving Apple crazy.

If they intentionally create updates borking the hackintosh community this will create bad will amongst the hobbyist/geeks(who pose no real threat to Apple). It will also take resources away from actual productive work that could be used for the OS, and ultimately will be circumvented by the hackintosh community. If they sue Pystar based on EULAs and lose, big oops.

Nope, there's no hole in Apple's line-up.
----
Thank you for correcting me. It makes it even more hilarious.

I get your point. Actually there are quite a few of us here, on these boards, who WOULD like to see an xMac, whatever that may mean.

The question is whether Apple would sell enough of them to make up for the loss in sales from all the other desktop lines.

I think that business would be the biggest possibility, not the consumer. But, Apple isn't much interested in that yet.

Maybe if they do decide to get back into that market, we will see one.

"It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them." Steve Jobs

I already stated I am Polish. Isn't calling me a dummy a little redundant?\

Could you explain that?

He's referring to consumer products, you know.

I don't equate the two.

I also thought it was obvious as to what I had meant about the time.

I guess it is self explanatory. Apple is consumer and small business products company. Here is another nice quote from SJ from 2005 regarding hacking Mac OS X for intel to work on PCs:

We dont know how having OS X available for PCs would affect Macs, We will have technology in OS X for Intel so that it cannot be installed in other PCs.

Seems they still didn't quite close the hole.

That's close to impossible. It would have to be hardware encoded, and they haven't done that yet.

And yet you replied and quoted MY message, not his, accusing ME of whining. If you're going to use language like that, you'd better make damn sure you're addressing the right person.


Nobody said otherwise. I just don't want to pay extra for wireless this, that and the other thing when wired works perfectly for me. Wireless keyboards cost more, as do wireless mice, printers, drives, Airport Express, etc. I also don't like the idea of broadcasting any data I access on my hard drive, WPA2 or no WPA2.


There's a big difference between an AIO and a notebook. A notebook has one big advantage: it's portable. People think they're going to take it places or that it'll be easier to take down to the shop if it needs service. So they think. I know several people who bought laptops for just those reasons. Not desktop replacements, just low-end laptops. The laptops never leave their desks. Just where is this data that AIOs are stealing market share at the expense of towers? Citation, please.

That could be broken too; like WGA with XP/Vista, or OGA with Office, or the countless hardware dongle hacks for Autocad and 3D Studio Max - they'll all get broken sooner or later.

And IIRC with the hacked OSX images, all they did was replace or remove a couple of files.

As for the Psystar Hackintosh, I like the case actually, but I rather build my own - Apple needs to get with the program, and build a better Mini/xMac, the iMac is good for some, but others still want a sub-$1000 tower, like the Psystar, just not as flaky. And the Mini is getting long in the tooth.

In other respects, I'd say it'd be wiser to load up Ubuntu/Kubuntu 8.04 on a PC, if purely looking for an alternative to Windows, but getting OSX on a cheap tower has its advantages too.

I can tell you this, unless Apple does have a proper $1500 PowerMac replacement, they've lost my business when it comes to desktops (I'll stick with a macbook though). I can afford neither three grand for a Mac Pro and accessories nor the severe loss of capability I've had with the iMac.

I was responding to your post. Who's post should I quote? I was addressing YOU that was defending HIM with non-sequitors.

Presuming that you don't like wireless devices (as you state) then you wouldn't therefore whine about wires like the OP and we have no point of contention.

I therefore suggest you make "damn sure" of the points you choose to defend if you don't like folks responding to you. Because I was "damn sure" that the point that there were 4 total cords in the system was an idiotic rejoinder to the fact there was only ONE cord actually attached to the iMac.

If you want an uncluttered iMac it is possible even with lots of expansions.


HE said otherwise. YOU defended him and his silly assertion.


So don't. Apple doesn't force you to.


I'm happy for you. So exactly why did you inject yourself into this little debate?


Apple desktops sales are growing faster than the market I believe it was stated somewhere. If true then Apple, who makes largely AIOs, is taking share from traditional desktop makers who largely makes towers.

Here you go:

http://www.techradar.com/news/comput...ebruary-268369

Jeez, you've been saying that since 2005 when I got here. Have you bought a desktop in three bloody years? If not, pray tell why Apple cares about your business?

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy a Psystar? I would if I wanted a cheap mac tower so badly.

No desktop, just an ALU iMac. I gave Apple the benefit of the doubt and got burned. Seriously, why are you so adamant that nobody gets their needs served so doesn't think exactly like you?

I'm not adamant that Apple SHOULDN'T make an xMac. I think they should and I'd like one.

I'm adamant that Apple doesn't NEED to make an xMac to be successful and serving its desired customer base.

Apple has diverged from your needs. They aren't likely to change anytime soon. So you can stay and be constantly bitter as you sound. Or you can get a different computer from some other vendor. OSX is just an operating system. A nice one, but nothing to pine over.

You don't like you iMac, I'm sure you can sell it on eBay and get a better desktop from Dell since you feel so "burned".

My 733 MHz G4 PowerMac was replaced by a used G5. Now I've got Leopard running in my office. I did buy a Time Capsule and it's great. I'm writing a book and I can look back at any revision. Plus the wireless let's me use a laptop in bed and access all the G5 files. I like to be lazy.

Jerry

Yes, there is, but it regards to the debate on whether customers want a simple, all encompassing machine or one they can upgrade over the years notebooks and AIO desktops are increasing marketshare while PC towers are falling. There is plenty of articles supporting this data. AI has plenty of articles on the subject.

I'd like to see official estimates on people whoa re buying notebooks for thei primary machine without the intention of moving it from it's primary location. I know of too many people who use Windows, Linux or OS X who have replaced a tower with a notebook just to keep on their desk.

I wrote:

Which you quoted and replied with:

Just where was I "defending" him? I just wrote that I didn't care for wireless and you suddenly ask why am I whining. Your clearly sarcastic tone doesn't help get your point across.


I see. So instead of a public forum, this is now just a private little debate between you and him? Did you maybe consider that I was replying to you, not to you replying to him replying to you replying to him?


Is this the extent of your evidence? This precious article of yours lumps together iMacs and Mac Pros in its "higher sales" figures. It does not in any way, shape or form say the iMacs were devastating the Mac Pros. And even if they were, you don't think the fact that Mac Pros cost twice as much as iMacs might have anything to do with that sales disparity?

It's possible, but maybe not. A dongle isn't what I meant. Apple could now (with PA) design a chip that would go into their machines that would have functionality that the OS requires, and that couldn't be duplicated with software. That's very possible. there are timing situations that software simply can't simulate.

I happen to have my Monaco dongle here sitting next to my keyboard.


Yes, but again, that's not what I meant.


Right after the G5 Powermac came out, I called for a mini tower configuration. At the time, I could see it for $999. If I still had my manufacturing company, I could have done it myself, except, of course, for the compatibility.

That compatibility is why only Apple can do this right.

I'm willing to have Apple take the chance on it, but, apparently, they are not.

I'm not against you on this. Read my post just above.

Perhaps its in that previous paragraph you didn't requote here? Nah. Couldn't be because you made a snarky comment about how many cords there were.

In addition you were directly responding to this statement:


So again, if you don't like wireless technologies, you naturally wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) whine about wires on your desk. Meaning you probably have no dog in this fight. So why would anyone care in the context of this discussion that you don't like wireless technology?

Clive: Apple makes slim machines but you need to clutter them up with wires to expand them. This is silly.
Vinea: You can use wireless technologies to avoid the wires.
Kolchak: I don't like fruit.

WTF?


Did you maybe consider that the "you" was the generic you and not you in specific? Parse that sentence again.


You asked solipsism for a citation so I linked the first one for you found from a simple google search you seem incapable of doing yourself. Apple sales of desktops is growing faster than the sales of desktops by other makers. Therefore AIOs are gaining share at the expense of towers because why? Because Apple sells more AIOs than they do towers. Therefore if Apple is gaining desktop share then AIOs are also gaining desktop share. Who can AIOs take share away from? Gee, towers.

Which is exactly the evidence you asked for. However, I guess if you can't accept that both notebooks AND AIOs can both gain share at the expense of towers then the logic is too difficult for you to follow.

Mac Pro vs iMac sales doesn't come into play at all except for you confuse yourself with.

I'm going to clear the air. I can tell you exactly what Cupertino thinks about clones/hacked machines how they are now.

They don't think about them.

Mr. Jobs & CO personally don't care if people install OS X on machines like this. While they would never publicly endorse it, these hacks don't work well, often becoming outdated with each new OS revision or even a simple update.

All it does is create a user who loves OS X, and longs for a real Mac.

No harm, No foul.

If it happened on a large quality scale Apple would win, enterprise will support the real thing.


Apple doesn't worry about this. I know for a fact there are several windows generic machines used to run OS X on at Apple's headquarters. Mostly for testing, but often strangely OS X includes video drivers for cards that it never uses... OS X dev group has machines sitting under desk.

I don't think there's any question at all. The xMac would be just like the iPod Nano. Both Apple and many of their sycophants loudly proclaimed that there was no need or market for flash based iPods, that HDs are where it's at. Then the shuffle and Nano came out, and Apple's only problem was keeping up with demand.

I have no doubt whatsoever that if Apple produced a machine that roughly equalled the specs of the Psystar, even at twice the price, that they would not be able to keep up with the damand for that product either.

Besides that, so what if it took from some of the iMac sales? They'd be still selling units, and since standard desktop parts cost less, they could actually make more money per unit sold. I know in my case, I'm still extremely bitter about my iMac purchase a couple months ago. Apple presented me with no acceptable options. I only bought the iMac because it was the least bad offering Apple had. The difference had there been an xMac for me to buy would not have been a lost sale from someone who otherwise wanted an iMac, but from someone who was forced to buy something he didn't want in the first place. I don't see the whole "but we can force them to buy things they don't want, and if we give them what they want, they might buy it instead of what we are forcing on them" as a valid argument.

The fact that Apple's desktop market share(re: probably due to iMac sales) is growing faster than the rest of the industry, does not in and of itself contradict any assertion that an xMac might accelerate this growth or even affect the bottom line.

Anyone can assume anything and you know what they say about "ass-u-me".

The quickest and easiest way to determine this, would be for Apple to introduce an xMac style computer, gauge the sales and bottom line. If it adversely affects the company, discontinue it just as they have with the previous G3, G4 and G5 versions.

note: ain't happening though, because it apparently goes against some basic philosophy for consumer desktop computer design Apple holds dearly.

I don't consider the iMac to be a "bad" choice. I just bought two 24" 3.06 GHz models, for my wife and daughter. I wouldn't have bought them if I thought they were a bad choice.

But, would I have bought a mini tower with one dual core chip, an Express 2 bus with one 16x slot and one 4x slot with a graphics card, space for two HDD's, and eight GB RAM instead? For my daughter, sure. for my wife, maybe.

But, then, we aren't the average consumers, are we?

I mostly (I emphasize the word "mostly".) agree with this new Macworld article that just surfaced today:

http://www.macworld.com/article/1331...macbuying.html

Don't forget, Rick, that anyone can make a joke about the word "assume". But what you're saying are also assumptions, even if you don't use the word itself.

Everything we are saying here are our assumptions.

You could also substitute the word with "guess".

Sad part is that is who Apple used to be the company for.


It has its points, but there are things I do disagree with. CPU speed is not the problem. The new machines are plenty fast enough in clock speed and in most cases the Apps are not going to be able to take advantage of quad cores. In most cases, the 2.8ghz and 3.0ghz iMacs are going to be as fast as Mac Pros. If you're running things that are mostly CPU intensive, the iMac is going to be a very good option.

There are other things to consider though. Anyone who thinks there is anything as too much RAM is kidding themselves. In fact, the ceiling of how much memory you can put in a machine will have more to do with with how long you keep your computer than your CPU. It was RAM starved at 1GB, I don't feel too safe at 2GB and this computer was bought in the fall.

Then there is the optical drive. As much as Apple wants to think we're in a post optical disc world, they're only half right. Music for the most part is, video is years away from the place. You're going to have to burn your iMovie or FCE productions onto a disk. The iMac can do this if you're willing to wait a little longer for the 8x drive. In some cases, it can be a major pain. However, speed aside the slot loading variant has one fatal flaw, it cannot use the increasingly popular 3.5" camcorder DVDs and as far as I know there is no adaptor. That means if you're working if those DVDs for either a client or a family member, you either need them to bring in the camcorder or spend a $100, some desk space, a port, and an outlet on an external DVD burner. In most cases you're going to need to use on of the all to few USB2.0 ports because drives with a firewire port are becoming very rare.

Hard drive space. Occasionally, we (or our computer manufacturer) will lowball our requirements for space, especially when it comes to video. If you find yourself running out of room, you have two choices. First, you can get an external hard drive and add more desk clutter. Second, you drive a couple hours to the nearest Apple store and have them do it for you. Either one is going to be expensive.

Apple was never for the average consumer. Never!

Their consumer machines were always terrible, the performas in particular.

They were always for the geeks (Apple II), and later, the professional, schools, and artists.


Exactly.


Let me tell you something about RAM. RAM is overhyped.

The iMac can take 4GB. Believe it or not, that's more than enough for most professional users. If you are a PS user, you just have to go to the bottom of the image window, and check efficiency. If that's at 100%, then you're fine, no matter what else you may have running.

More RAM won't matter. If you do video editing with FCP, you don't even need 4 GB.

The few people who actually do need more RAM are users who also need the extra cores, and other features of a Mac Pro. But, there are fewer of them than you may think.

Feeling "safe" isn't an issue. It's whether you actually do need the memory, which is different.

If you're talking about a Mini, then it really isn't intended for work that might require more than 2 GB, which is all most people need.

If we see an upgrade to them, they may very well take 4GB, and that would end that argument.


Those "increasingly popular" camcorders aren't so popular. What we're going to see is the increased proliferation of camcorders that use Flash for storage, now that it has become cheap, and large enough. One hour of MiniDv at highest quality requires 11 GB of storage, and it doesn't need fast Flash either.


Adding an external is what most PC'ers do when they buy more drives for their "upgradable" machines. I don't see that as an issue. You can put it behind the thin computer, if it's an iMac, or buy one of those neat devices that adds 1.5inches to the bottom of a Mini and allows one terabyte per case.