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post #201 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

The fact that Apple's desktop market share(re: probably due to iMac sales) is growing faster than the rest of the industry, does not in and of itself contradict any assertion that an xMac might accelerate this growth or even affect the bottom line.

Anyone can assume anything and you know what they say about "ass-u-me".

The quickest and easiest way to determine this, would be for Apple to introduce an xMac style computer, gauge the sales and bottom line. If it adversely affects the company, discontinue it just as they have with the previous G3, G4 and G5 versions.

note: ain't happening though, because it apparently goes against some basic philosophy for consumer desktop computer design Apple holds dearly.

Which has zero to do with the question of if AIOs was taking share from desktops. Answer: it is.

I make no assumptions and you are free to draw your own conclusions.

I do find it interesting that Dell now offers an AIO along with Sony and Gateway. I'm not sure they would bother if they didn't see some growth in that area so in effect your test has occured in the reverse where a tower maker has added an AIO and have thus far kept it.

Also note that Sony no longer makes a tower.

And note that Apple has made more affordable towers in the past even under Steve as you point out. The G4 and G5 ones. They see no compelling economic reasons to do so any longer.
post #202 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Because Apple sells more AIOs than they do towers. Therefore if Apple is gaining desktop share then AIOs are also gaining desktop share. Who can AIOs take share away from? Gee, towers

First of all, the article you linked was about consumer sales, not overall sales. Last time I've checked, the consumer sales represent about 30% of the computer sales. So what happens in the consumer segment doesn't make it a trend in the global market.

Second, last time I've cheched the iMac represented about 30% of the Mac sales. That means that in a market were Apple has 6.6% market share (the US), the iMac represents about 2% of the computers sold, and in a market were Apple has less than 4% market share (worldwide), the iMac represents about 1% of the computers sold.

For each iMac sold, there are about 23 (50% of 93% / 2) PC towers sold in the US and about 48 (50% of 96%) PC towers sold worldwide. Apple is NOT "selling more AIOs than they do towers".

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=648619

Since we are all making assumptions, I will say thet the iMac is cannibalizing sales from the Mac mini (limited/outdated) and the Mac Pro (too expensive).
post #203 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjteix View Post

Apple is NOT "selling more AIOs than they do towers".

Is that a typo or are you implying that the quoted text refers to all towers by all PC manufactures and is not referring to Mac Pros when "they" seems to refer to Apple?
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post #204 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

More RAM won't matter. If you do video editing with FCP, you don't even need 4 GB.

Errr.. no. When I went from 3 to 5 GB it was a very happy day. It was definitely not the placebo effect. My machine was much smoother editing after that.
post #205 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

Errr.. no. When I went from 3 to 5 GB it was a very happy day. It was definitely not the placebo effect. My machine was much smoother editing after that.

I'd love to see evidence of that. I've been using FCP from the beginning, on machines with a max of 1.5 GB RAM, to 8 GB of RAM. Once I got beyond 2 Gb, there wasn't too much of an improvement, and once beyond 4 Gb, there was none at all.

Feelings don't count.

Except for certain editing work, such as rotoscoping, video editing needs less RAM than does PS.
post #206 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

More RAM won't matter.

The only time I've recommended 4GB or more RAM is for switchers that will be heavy virtualization users.
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post #207 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Once I got beyond 2 Gb, there wasn't too much of an improvement, and once beyond 4 Gb, there was none at all.

It's my understanding that FCP itself can only address 2GB so that makes sense. But there's that pesky operating system and those pesky other apps. My computer is almost always working on something else like a DVD encode while I'm cutting.
post #208 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

T
As for the Psystar Hackintosh, I like the case actually, but I rather build my own - Apple needs to get with the program, and build a better Mini/xMac, the iMac is good for some, but others still want a sub-$1000 tower, like the Psystar, just not as flaky. And the Mini is getting long in the tooth.

Do you recall this Mini someone designed. It was in several threads last year. I love it. I drool over it. I dream about it. I want it. Please Apple, make this a reality.



Then we won't have to concern ourselves about clones. Don't drive some of us to crappy clones.

I don't know the dimensions of this mockup, but I assume it's half or less the size of a MacPro or about 4 times the size of a Mini.
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post #209 of 330
Another view of my dream Mini. This was from last year, so some specs might have to be upgraded.


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post #210 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

It's my understanding that FCP itself can only address 2GB so that makes sense. But there's that pesky operating system and those pesky other apps. My computer is almost always working on something else like a DVD encode while I'm cutting.

You could do that, of course, but it isn't recommended.
post #211 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Do you recall this Mini someone designed. It was in several threads last year. I love it. I drool over it. I dream about it. I want it. Please Apple, make this a reality.



Then we won't have to concern ourselves about clones. Don't drive some of us to crappy clones.

I don't know the dimensions of this mockup, but I assume it's half or less the size of a MacPro or about 4 times the size of a Mini.

Uh, that looks a lot like the one I designed when the G5 first came out. Except I had cooling through and through, like the G5 powermac.
post #212 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Do you recall this Mini someone designed. It was in several threads last year. I love it. I drool over it. I dream about it. I want it. Please Apple, make this a reality.



Then we won't have to concern ourselves about clones. Don't drive some of us to crappy clones.

I don't know the dimensions of this mockup, but I assume it's half or less the size of a MacPro or about 4 times the size of a Mini.

Reminds a lot of the white ASUS case that the Psystar uses, and also potentially noisy, as the fan port look small. But it's just a mockup, I know. Even shares the same power button location:



I would actually be impressed with Apple, if they could design something that wasn't just white or aluminum for a change. To me, it's gotten so bland - be different for once.
post #213 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Uh, that looks a lot like the one I designed when the G5 first came out. Except I had cooling through and through, like the G5 powermac.

Mel, what are the dimensions of the one you designed?
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post #214 of 330
[QUOTE=guinness;1249342]Reminds a lot of the white ASUS case that the Psystar uses, and also potentially noisy, as the fan port look small. But it's just a mockup, I know. Even shares the same power button location:
/QUOTE]

Psystar's computer has internal wires. The mockup has drawers like the MacPro. The Psystar looks to be much larger than the mockup.
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post #215 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple was never for the average consumer. Never!

Their consumer machines were always terrible, the performas in particular.

They were always for the geeks (Apple II), and later, the professional, schools, and artists.

No, Apple WAS for the above average consumer until a couple of years ago. Now they focus on a more trendy segment of the low end market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Do you recall this Mini someone designed. It was in several threads last year. I love it. I drool over it. I dream about it. I want it. Please Apple, make this a reality.



Then we won't have to concern ourselves about clones. Don't drive some of us to crappy clones.

I don't know the dimensions of this mockup, but I assume it's half or less the size of a MacPro or about 4 times the size of a Mini.

I'd move the power button and front ports because they're going to be very hard to reach when floor mounted. Other than that it look very good.
post #216 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Mel, what are the dimensions of the one you designed?

13.5H x 8.1W x 16D
post #217 of 330
[QUOTE=vinea;1249271I do find it interesting that Dell now offers an AIO along with Sony and Gateway. I'm not sure they would bother if they didn't see some growth in that area so in effect your test has occured in the reverse where a tower maker has added an AIO and have thus far kept it.[/quote]

And did they move their entire operation away from towers? No.

Quote:
Also note that Sony no longer makes a tower.

How's that treating them? I know you like to pass Sony off as a "premium" PC maker, but when it came to desktops they were making the same low end MicroATX crap as HP, Gateway, and Dell. They just charged more for it. Sony is a laptop maker with some moves into home entertainment center computer. That' their niche. They operate in something called any open market where different companies are Able to fill different requirements.
post #218 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

I'd move the power button and front ports because they're going to be very hard to reach when floor mounted. Other than that it look very good.

I'd like it small enough to sit on my desk like a Mini, or have it mounted just below desk top.
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post #219 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

No, Apple WAS for the above average consumer until a couple of years ago. Now they focus on a more trendy segment of the low end market.

They used to say that they were, but except for the performers, and original iMacs, they never really were. And I always felt as though their consumer machines were there despite Apple's preference.

Quote:
I'd move the power button and front ports because they're going to be very hard to reach when floor mounted. Other than that it look very good.

There are some differences from my design. I also had the ports and switch up higher, somewhat like the Powermac, or Mac Pro.
but there isn't as much room in a shorter machine. I only allowed for one optical drive.
post #220 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

Reminds a lot of the white ASUS case that the Psystar uses, and also potentially noisy, as the fan port look small.

The Pystar has a really cheap fan that is on full blast all the time because it isn't being controlled by the firmware. An Apple machine would use much higher quality and more silent fans and they would be controlled to give as much airflow as needed.
post #221 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

I'd like it small enough to sit on my desk like a Mini, or have it mounted just below desk top. The one fault I see with it is that USB and Firewire ports are all in the rear.

It's hard to tell with the small pics, but it looks as though there two USB connectors to the left, and two FW to the right at the bottom of the case.

I had them in a vertical line as Apple does.
post #222 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

I'd move the power button and front ports because they're going to be very hard to reach when floor mounted. Other than that it look very good.

And the power supply to the top. There are sound engineering reasons why you put it at the top whenever possible. That mockup looks nice but there seems to be some engineering issues with it.

The HDDs bays don't look to have enough space for airflow. An engineer would need to make sure that 4 15,000RPM drives could chug away in their 24/7 without heat issues.

As for the specs, I'd like a single optical bay, place for 4 sticks of RAM, one desktop-grade Core CPU, and 2 HDDs and 2 card slots, in a space no bigger than 3 stacked Mac Minis. Pretty much the G4 Cube without the wasted, open space at the bottom.
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post #223 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The HDDs bays don't look to have enough space for airflow. An engineer would need to make sure that 4 15,000RPM drives could chug away in their 24/7 without heat issues.

This wouldn't be a machine with four HDD's, but two. And 15,000 drives wouldn't be appropriate for such a machine. 10,000 drives use a lot less power, and put out much less heat, and are fast enough. Faster drives are also too small.

Quote:
As for the specs, I'd like a single optical bay, place for 4 sticks of RAM, one desktop-grade Core CPU, and 2 HDDs and 2 card slots, in a space no bigger than 3 stacked Mac Minis. Pretty much the G4 Cube without the wasted, open space at the bottom.

My design is that, except it can't be done in that space.

I tried. I really did, but space needed prohibits it.
post #224 of 330
Another MacWorld benchmarking of a Psyster machine compared to a 2GHz Mac mini, 2.4GHz (2008) iMac, and Rob Griffith's Quad-core OSx86 "Frankenmac".

http://www.macworld.com/article/1333...enchmarks.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by I liked this comment:

Compare Price and Features - The real story

Psystar osx 2.66 with video, wireless g only and firewire upgrades. $894.99. No keyboard, no mouse, no monitor, no webcam, no mic, no ilife, no bluetooth, no speakers, no N wireless, no all-in-one design, smaller harddrive.

True Apple iMac 20" 2.66 $1,499 * Worth every penny of the $505 difference.*
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post #225 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Do you recall this Mini someone designed. It was in several threads last year. I love it. I drool over it. I dream about it. I want it. Please Apple, make this a reality.



Then we won't have to concern ourselves about clones. Don't drive some of us to crappy clones.

I don't know the dimensions of this mockup, but I assume it's half or less the size of a MacPro or about 4 times the size of a Mini.

That's a lot bigger than 4x the mini. It's more than twice as deep and a lot more than 4x as tall.

Exactly where is the power supply anyway? It doesn't look that much smaller than a Mac Pro is, it looks like most of the Mac Pro parts are there, rearranged a bit and missing a power supply.
post #226 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And the power supply to the top. There are sound engineering reasons why you put it at the top whenever possible. That mockup looks nice but there seems to be some engineering issues with it.

The HDDs bays don't look to have enough space for airflow. An engineer would need to make sure that 4 15,000RPM drives could chug away in their 24/7 without heat issues.

I don't see the point in putting 15k drives in what's supposedly a "consumer" computer. That would restrict you to SCSI or SAS drives, making it a workstation or server. Apple already makes that kind of a machine.
post #227 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't see the point in putting 15k drives in what's supposedly a "consumer" computer. That would restrict you to SCSI or SAS drives, making it a workstation or server. Apple already makes that kind of a machine.

You'd be surprised by the PC enthusiast scene - If you're a big gamer, everything matters.

Spending a $1000+ on an extreme edition of a CPU is nothing for some folks.
post #228 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

You'd be surprised by the PC enthusiast scene - If you're a big gamer, everything matters.

Spending a $1000+ on an extreme edition of a CPU is nothing for some folks.

I won't deny there are some out there. But I don't think the lack of a mid-range tower is a problem for that kind of person, wouldn't they just go for a Mac Pro anyway?
post #229 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And 15,000 drives wouldn't be appropriate for such a machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't see the point in putting 15k drives in what's supposedly a "consumer" computer.

I don't see a point either, but if the drives have the appropriate dimensions and connectors, a good engineer would need to take into the consideration the potential heat of a maxed out system. I've never seen a computer case limit the speed HDD that it could accept, so I imagine that all were deemed acceptable.
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post #230 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's a lot bigger than 4x the mini. It's more than twice as deep and a lot more than 4x as tall.

Exactly where is the power supply anyway? It doesn't look that much smaller than a Mac Pro is, it looks like most of the Mac Pro parts are there, rearranged a bit and missing a power supply.

This has the same shape as the one I did, but it's really much bigger.

I assume the power supply is at the back, at the bottom, behind what looks to be the memory boards.
post #231 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

You'd be surprised by the PC enthusiast scene - If you're a big gamer, everything matters.

Spending a $1000+ on an extreme edition of a CPU is nothing for some folks.

those extreme gamers shouldn't mind paying for a Mac Pro then.

Actually they don't. Alienware was all about gamers, as was VooDoo, and other small manufacturers that made expensive gaming machines.
post #232 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You could do that, of course, but it isn't recommended.

That's a first for me. I've never heard Apple say anything remotely like "Please do not use your Mac Pro to its fullest potential in order to maximize productivity. It is not recommended." Seems a rather non-Apple thing to say.
post #233 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

That's a first for me. I've never heard Apple say anything remotely like "Please do not use your Mac Pro to its fullest potential in order to maximize productivity. It is not recommended." Seems a rather non-Apple thing to say.

No no. It's not recommended to use several programs when rendering. glitches to the render, can, and sometimes do, occur.

In general, it's fine. I run several programs all the time, even on older machines with more than one core.
post #234 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

That's a first for me. I've never heard Apple say anything remotely like "Please do not use your Mac Pro to its fullest potential in order to maximize productivity. It is not recommended." Seems a rather non-Apple thing to say.

A lot of Final Cut UIs seem to be programmed assuming that it's the only thing you're trying to do on a computer, like a hold-over from OS 9. At least with Final Cut Express (3, 3.5 and 4), I can't even use the computer for writing notes while playing a preview, losing focus to another app halts playback, even if you have plenty of spare computer performance.
post #235 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

those extreme gamers shouldn't mind paying for a Mac Pro then.

For an "extreme gamer" that is hardware obsessed to such a degree that they are buying 15krpm HD's, surely Mac Pro is out of the question due to the degree it is graphics-capped.
post #236 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't see a point either, but if the drives have the appropriate dimensions and connectors, a good engineer would need to take into the consideration the potential heat of a maxed out system. I've never seen a computer case limit the speed HDD that it could accept, so I imagine that all were deemed acceptable.

I'm not sure if it's the case maker's place to say that. It's up to the assembler to determine suitability of a part for the task. Back when I was doing that sort of thing, there weren't even instructions for the case that I remember, just a case and a hardware package.

The people that actually know what they're doing when putting together a computer should know better than to simply assume "if it fits, it must be appropriate". I have a few Compaq workstations that even have labels that say that a certain fan kit should be installed if using 10k or faster drives in the optical bays. The drive cage behind the optical bays are adequately spaced and cooled for 15k drives.
post #237 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I'm not sure if it's the case maker's place to say that. It's up to the assembler to determine suitability of a part for the task. Back when I was doing that sort of thing, there weren't even instructions for the case that I remember, just a case and a hardware package.

The people that actually know what they're doing when putting together a computer should know better than to simply assume "if it fits, it must be appropriate". I have a few Compaq workstations that even have labels that say that a certain fan kit should be installed if using 10k or faster drives in the optical bays. The drive cage behind the optical bays are adequately spaced and cooled for 15k drives.

So some manufacturers do have provisions for faster drives.

PS: I didn't mean to imply standalone cases, I was referring specifically to Apple engineers when they are designing the case (and the internals) for their machines.
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post #238 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

For an "extreme gamer" that is hardware obsessed to such a degree that they are buying 15krpm HD's, surely Mac Pro is out of the question due to the degree it is graphics-capped.

A Radeon HD 3870 will be coming to the Mac Pro sometime soon, supposedly by the end of May, according to ATI.

That's a very good card. It will run on Macs and PCs.

It should help.
post #239 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So some manufacturers do have provisions for faster drives.

PS: I didn't mean to imply standalone cases, I was referring specifically to Apple engineers when they are designing the case (and the internals) for their machines.

The cooling is one thing, and the power supply is the other.

What market is this machine supposed to be aimed at? If it is to come in at a decent price, compromise must be expected. What wattage should the power supply deliver?

Realistically! Remember that it must assume the memory slots will be filled, as well as the fastest graphics card, and full power for the other slot as well. then there is the optical drive, which sues fair power when writing.

Also Apple supplies a stereo amp on the mobo.

I figure no more than 250 watts. That may even be a bit much, given the size.
post #240 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjteix View Post

First of all, the article you linked was about consumer sales, not overall sales. Last time I've checked, the consumer sales represent about 30% of the computer sales. So what happens in the consumer segment doesn't make it a trend in the global market.

Unfortunately it doesn't show the raw data from NPD. Such is the limits of a single article.

Because I'm lazy I'm not going to look for another and just use its numbers.

55% increase in desktop sales for Apple.

Quote:
Second, last time I've cheched the iMac represented about 30% of the Mac sales. That means that in a market were Apple has 6.6% market share (the US), the iMac represents about 2% of the computers sold, and in a market were Apple has less than 4% market share (worldwide), the iMac represents about 1% of the computers sold.

But it doesn't matter when we're talking about whether AIO share is increasing or decreasing.

Quote:
For each iMac sold, there are about 23 (50% of 93% / 2) PC towers sold in the US and about 48 (50% of 96%) PC towers sold worldwide. Apple is NOT "selling more AIOs than they do towers".

Well it's a good thing I NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT.

The question was whether there was data that suggests that AIOs are gaining share at the expense of towers. This is a different metric.

Quote:
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=648619

Since we are all making assumptions, I will say thet the iMac is cannibalizing sales from the Mac mini (limited/outdated) and the Mac Pro (too expensive).

Except that neither the mini or pro ever moved much volume anyway. And Apple can't be gaining desktop share faster than the rest of the market by cannibalizing it's own product line. So your assumption has a zero chance of being true.

But again, if the industry is increasing desktop sales at a 12% rate (from Gartner) but Apple is increasing desktop sales at 55% then given the large % that iMac represents in their desktop line then it is safe to say that AIOs are increasing market share at the expense of other computer types. Since we ALSO know that laptop share is increasing at the expense of desktops that leaves the only conclusion is that by whatever miniscule amount the statement that AIOs are increasing market share over towers is true.

It is unfortunate that Gartner did not break things down into desktop vs laptop sales. If the desktop sales declined 5% overall as indicated in the other article then it is certain that AIOs have improved thier position vis a vis towers.

Note that does not equate to "Apple sells more AIOs than others sell towers" but that AIOs may now be 1.1% of the desktop market where it was 1% before.

That's ALL the data indicates.
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