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More unofficial Mac clones up for sale on eBay - Page 7

post #241 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

And did they move their entire operation away from towers? No.

And that wasn't the point. The question is whether AIOs are gaining in popularity (as reflected in market share) vs towers.

Evidently Dell believes there is a market, likely a growing one, that they wish to address by adding an AIO to their product line.

The certainly wouldn't do so for something that is of very marginal potential.

Quote:
How's that treating them? I know you like to pass Sony off as a "premium" PC maker, but when it came to desktops they were making the same low end MicroATX crap as HP, Gateway, and Dell. They just charged more for it. Sony is a laptop maker with some moves into home entertainment center computer. That' their niche. They operate in something called any open market where different companies are Able to fill different requirements.

Probably pretty good. AIOs have better margins than their desktop counterparts and better Average Sale Prices (ASPs).

For a tower you simply can't sell at a premium and Sony, with their VAIO line offered lifestyle integration software (typically tied to other sony products) in much the same way Apple does with iLife. Many VAIOs came with TV tuners and a media bent different from the HPs and Dells of the period. So yes, they were premium machines with Sony styling (something you like, or not).

Note that Toshiba had withdrawn from the desktop market long ago as well. It is #5 worldwide and in the US. Apple has NEVER needed to cater to the tower market to do well given Toshiba has consistently been ahead of it. If Apple did nothing but laptops and Mac Pros it probably would still see growth...although they'd likely have to change up their laptop line a bit.

So AIOs are prefectly viable desktops that are gaining in popularity to the point where Apple has some competition in that market space where before it was largely alone.
post #242 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Another MacWorld benchmarking of a Psyster machine compared to a 2GHz Mac mini, 2.4GHz (2008) iMac, and Rob Griffith's Quad-core OSx86 "Frankenmac".
http://www.macworld.com/article/1333...enchmarks.html

I wonder what percentage of their sales have gone to reviewers vs consumers.
post #243 of 330
I was just looking at Psystar's computers today, and the prices is what really blew me away!

With the Open Computer Pro you could get:

Memory: 8GB DDR2 RAM (+ $200.00)
Processor: Core2Quad/2.6GHz Q9450 (+ $400.00)
Hard Drive: 1 TB 7200RPM SATA (+ $150.00)
Video Card: GeForce 8800GT 512MB (+ $230.00)
Case: Black
Operating System: Ubuntu Linux 8.04

For $1,979.99
I'd buy that any day! That is like my dream computer!

Then with the regular Open Computer you can get:
Case Model: Black/Silver v2
Intel Processor: Core2Duo/2.66GHz E6750 (+ $90.00)
Hard Drive: 500GB 7200RPM SATA (+ $60.00)
Graphics Processor: GeForce 8600GT 256MB (+ $110.00)
Firewire: 3 x IEEE 1394 (+ $50.00)
Operating System: Ubuntu Linux 8.04
Memory: 4GB DDR2 (+ $75.00)

for $784.99

I'm asking myself why Apple is so expensive compared to this. I might go on and buy this, even if there is no Wifi or bluetooth, and even if I can't run Mac OS X. I'd probably go for the Pro... ohhh.... I just wish Apple would release something like this!
ALTER BRIDGE is the greatest rock band of today. Myspace || Street Team
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ALTER BRIDGE is the greatest rock band of today. Myspace || Street Team
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post #244 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobertoq View Post

I was just looking at Psystar's computers today, and the prices is what really blew me away!

With the Open Computer Pro you could get:

Memory: 8GB DDR2 RAM (+ $200.00)
Processor: Core2Quad/2.6GHz Q9450 (+ $400.00)
Hard Drive: 1 TB 7200RPM SATA (+ $150.00)
Video Card: GeForce 8800GT 512MB (+ $230.00)
Case: Black
Operating System: Ubuntu Linux 8.04

For $1,979.99
I'd buy that any day! That is like my dream computer!

Then I recommend going to HP and getting a d4999t with a Q9450, 8GB RAM, 1TB 7200 SATA HDD (2x500GB), GeForce 8800GT (2 DVI and TV out), 802.11 a/b/g/n, 16x SuperDrive, 15-1 card reader + 1394 firewire for:

$1,779 and free shipping.

Of course you'd have to install Ubuntu to dual boot but you should be able to play games out of the box using Vista. I'm not certain why you'd get a 8800GT if you didn't want to play games...

http://point.princeton.edu/tigertrad...3&fromlist=yes

Hackintosh is evidently possible on the d4999ts. Have fun.
post #245 of 330
whoa thanks. I still love using Macs, and Mac OS X is definitely better IMO.
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post #246 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A Radeon HD 3870 will be coming to the Mac Pro sometime soon, supposedly by the end of May, according to ATI.

That's a very good card. It will run on Macs and PCs.

It should help.

Slower than 8800GT, does nothing to change the fact a hardware enthusiast-gamer won't buy a Mac Pro.
post #247 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Slower than 8800GT, does nothing to change the fact a hardware enthusiast-gamer won't buy a Mac Pro.

A bit, true.

But the word from ATI is that if this does well on the Mac, we can expect more again.

There aren't even any more high end cards around. Nvidia is trying to put two 8800's on one card. not too good.
post #248 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A bit, true.

But the word from ATI is that if this does well on the Mac, we can expect more again.

How well can it do, best case? Eat nVidia's 8800GT upgrade sales, and that's it. Mac Pro users are a really small market to begin with and most of them don't need graphics power over what they already have. The only thing that could make this market considerably more attractive is a compatible mass-market computer from Apple.
Quote:
There aren't even any more high end cards around. Nvidia is trying to put two 8800's on one card. not too good.

"Trying"? The 9800GX2 benches a lot above 8800 Ultra. New chip generations are expected in summer, I think.
post #249 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't forget, Rick, that anyone can make a joke about the word "assume". But what you're saying are also assumptions, even if you don't use the word itself.

Everything we are saying here are our assumptions.

You could also substitute the word with "guess".

Duely noted, I should have stressed that I make assumptions and/or guesses just like everyone else. Even if they won't admit it, to either us or themselves. Thank you for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Which has zero to do with the question of if AIOs was taking share from desktops. Answer: it is.

I make no assumptions and you are free to draw your own conclusions.

I do find it interesting that Dell now offers an AIO along with Sony and Gateway. I'm not sure they would bother if they didn't see some growth in that area so in effect your test has occured in the reverse where a tower maker has added an AIO and have thus far kept it.

Also note that Sony no longer makes a tower.

And note that Apple has made more affordable towers in the past even under Steve as you point out. The G4 and G5 ones. They see no compelling economic reasons to do so any longer.

Exactly, it has "zero to do with the question of if AIOs was taking share from desktops."

Just where did I infer, imply or even suggest that the iMac was not taking away share from "nonAIO" desktops. Which, if you think about, is exactly my point(assumption or guess) that Apple could offer an xMac and increase sales at a very good margin.

And who cares if Dell, Sony and any other manufacturer sells an AIO or not or a tower or not?

The mere fact there exists a flourishing hackintosh community, a company fighting all odds in offering the Open Computer, these xMac threads(re: here and on any other Mac centric board) and the recent appearance of a hackintosh on ebay proves there is a market. How big, we don't know and you don't know, you like me make assumptions/guesses. I think it to be bigger than you suggest.

I say, free the xMac Apple, test the market, it wouldn't present any significant risk to Apple and it's shareholders.(I like that, a new slogan "Free the xMac").

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Do you recall this Mini someone designed. It was in several threads last year. I love it. I drool over it. I dream about it. I want it. Please Apple, make this a reality.

Then we won't have to concern ourselves about clones. Don't drive some of us to crappy clones.

I don't know the dimensions of this mockup, but I assume it's half or less the size of a MacPro or about 4 times the size of a Mini.

Now that is an impressive design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

...But again, if the industry is increasing desktop sales at a 12% rate (from Gartner) ...

Thank you for this information. Not saying you ever said it, but many people on other boards continually say the desktop market is dying. Well, er, um, I guess not its' sales increased 12%,
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #250 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

How well can it do, best case? Eat nVidia's 8800GT upgrade sales, and that's it. Mac Pro users are a really small market to begin with and most of them don't need graphics power over what they already have. The only thing that could make this market considerably more attractive is a compatible mass-market computer from Apple."Trying"? The 9800GX2 benches a lot above 8800 Ultra. New chip generations are expected in summer, I think.

I've been saying for a long time, that until the MacPro's sales reach a certain point, we won't see third party cards. This, then, is an important step. If ATI feels that sales are enough for them to get bck into the market, then we will benefit.

As for the duo card from Nvidia, it uses so much power, is so hot and noisy, that it isn't really worth it. That's why I said try. the sales aren't supposed to be anything much.
post #251 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

Thank you for this information. Not saying you ever said it, but many people on other boards continually say the desktop market is dying. Well, er, um, I guess not its' sales increased 12%,

Here is the most recent AI article quoting data from NPD...

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._february.html
Quote:
The Mac maker also saw robust demand for its desktop systems, which grew 55 percent on a 68 percent increase in revenues, compared to the overall retail segment which saw unit sales decline 5 percent on a 2 percent drop in revenues.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #252 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Perhaps its in that previous paragraph you didn't requote here? Nah. Couldn't be because you made a snarky comment about how many cords there were.

Did you maybe consider that the "you" was the generic you and not you in specific? Parse that sentence again.

I give up. You are completely in your own little world and we're expected to read your mind. You write about a bunch of equipment and "one cord" and we're supposed to know that you meant one power cord on the iMac. And now you write that you didn't mean "you" you, but "you" in the general sense, rather than "he," which would have been specific. You're a real piece of work.
post #253 of 330
Vinea,

Your answered your own question, "PC desktop sales increased 12%..." so those are not declining.

Again, if you use numbers from a limited segment (55% in the consumer market), you don't get the right picture (which is a 37% increase Y/Y for desktop Macs, and for Apple's notebooks it is 61% - thanks to the MB Air). Apple publishes their numbers every quarter...

If you don't know, the ratio between desktops and notebooks in PCs is still very close to 50/50 which is different from the Apple world: 60% for notebooks and 40% for desktops. Intel thinks that the notebooks sales will surpass the desktops sales in 2009/2010.

The growth of the top 5 manufacturers is still between 15 and 25%, not bad for people who are still selling towers (most of them anyway).

Solipsism,

You are also using Retail numbers for the US only, which do not represent the global computers sales.

While growth is certainly important, the global market share is too, right now Apple's share worldwide is less than 4% and the iMac represents about 1% of the computers sold. Wherever the iMac takes its sales from, it is insignificant since the industry itself is still growing in all segments.
post #254 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've been saying for a long time, that until the MacPro's sales reach a certain point, we won't see third party cards. This, then, is an important step. If ATI feels that sales are enough for them to get bck into the market, then we will benefit.

As for the duo card from Nvidia, it uses so much power, is so hot and noisy, that it isn't really worth it. That's why I said try. the sales aren't supposed to be anything much.

The card might not be elegant but having more performance than anything else in one slot, it's not a failure and not a "try". It bridges the gap between the 8800 Ultra and the next high end. High end never sells in large volumes, and it doesn't need to. Power draw is in line with SLI solutions, not large enough to be a concern for the target market. Noise is apparently high, but lower than the 2900XT's, which was considered a successful product for ATi.

The real issue is that a momentary lull at the graphics high end doesn't mean the graphics market is standing still. You now get nearly the old 8800 Ultra high end's worth of performance in the 9800GTX for less than the low end original 8800 was at introduction, a "stopgap" high end in the GX2, and the new high end is about to come out. There's no breather in this for Apple. They are still getting left behind about the same they always have, and if they want to change that, the only way is to up the volume through a new machine that is not a workstation. Their choice.
post #255 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

The card might not be elegant but having more performance than anything else in one slot, it's not a failure and not a "try". It bridges the gap between the 8800 Ultra and the next high end. High end never sells in large volumes, and it doesn't need to. Power draw is in line with SLI solutions, not large enough to be a concern for the target market. Noise is apparently high, but lower than the 2900XT's, which was considered a successful product for ATi.

The real issue is that a momentary lull at the graphics high end doesn't mean the graphics market is standing still. You now get nearly the old 8800 Ultra high end's worth of performance in the 9800GTX for less than the low end original 8800 was at introduction, a "stopgap" high end in the GX2, and the new high end is about to come out. There's no breather in this for Apple. They are still getting left behind about the same they always have, and if they want to change that, the only way is to up the volume through a new machine that is not a workstation. Their choice.

Power draw is, what, on the order of 225-275 watts? Too much.

They won't sell more than a thousand of these cards, and likely, less.

It's a desperate gamble until they come out with their new chips.

They're not making it for practical reasons, but to say that they have the fastest card, even though it's not something great.

Apple has it's own problems that are driven by Apple. They could have much better cards, if they wanted to, after all, they make their own cards. They just don't want to.

Personally, if I were running Apple, I'd offer these much better cards even if I took a loss on them, just to drive Mac Pro machines into the hands of those who won't buy the machines otherwise. Apple would more than make it up by the sales of those machines, upgrades to the OS, and in other areas.

Enough gamers would buy these machines now that Windows can be run at full speed through booting. After all, Alienware, Voodoo, and others, didn't make their success in selling cheap machines to these people. Apple wouldn't have to sell millions, just a couple of hundred thousand extra a year. That's a lot of money.
post #256 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Power draw is, what, on the order of 225-275 watts? Too much.

If that's too much, then all SLI combos are too much. Why does every manufacturer offer a SLI mobo? Why are they stocked at stores? I read that as "there are people out there using SLI".
Quote:
They won't sell more than a thousand of these cards, and likely, less.

It's a desperate gamble until they come out with their new chips.

They're not making it for practical reasons, but to say that they have the fastest card, even though it's not something great.

So call it advertising, market research, feasibility study. I don't see anything desperate about it. "Desperate" is hacking together something ugly and crude that will hurt your rep, and selling it at a near-loss in an attempt to turn the tide on competition that is steamrolling you. But nVidia has owned the high end for a long time now. ATi can't touch them at least until the next round of entirely new chips.
Quote:
Apple has it's own problems that are driven by Apple. They could have much better cards, if they wanted to, after all, they make their own cards. They just don't want to.

Personally, if I were running Apple, I'd offer these much better cards even if I took a loss on them, just to drive Mac Pro machines into the hands of those who won't buy the machines otherwise. Apple would more than make it up by the sales of those machines, upgrades to the OS, and in other areas.

Enough gamers would buy these machines now that Windows can be run at full speed through booting. After all, Alienware, Voodoo, and others, didn't make their success in selling cheap machines to these people. Apple wouldn't have to sell millions, just a couple of hundred thousand extra a year. That's a lot of money.

I agree as far as that Apple should make sure that their professional workstation can take the newest, most powerful cards, so that it's competetive with other workstations. What I don't believe in is some mass exodus of hardware enthusiasts (we can drop the "gamer" because these people are nothing like an average PC gamer) would suddenly start buying untweakable Apple boxes. They already have quality hardware, know what they want and how to look for it. I don't see how Apple could possibly sell to them without changing *everything* about the way they do business and design their product, and how it could possibly be worth it for Apple to do so.

What Apple *can* accommodate, however, is the 95% of PC gamers who just want a reasonably powerful machine and graphics. That they can do without changing anything about their business logic.
post #257 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

If that's too much, then all SLI combos are too much. Why does every manufacturer offer a SLI mobo? Why are they stocked at stores? I read that as "there are people out there using SLI".

That's a very interesting question. According to the game sites, almost no one is using either SLI or Crossover. I don't know what the big deal is.

Quote:
So call it advertising, market research, feasibility study. I don't see anything desperate about it. "Desperate" is hacking together something ugly and crude that will hurt your rep, and selling it at a near-loss in an attempt to turn the tide on competition that is steamrolling you.

That's about what this card does.

Quote:
But nVidia has owned the high end for a long time now.

What high end? That's been gone for some time. Neither company has produced anything new and exciting for some time.

Quote:
ATi can't touch them at least until the next round of entirely new chips.

Pehaps.

Quote:
I agree as far as that Apple should make sure that their professional workstation can take the newest, most powerful cards, so that it's competetive with other workstations. What I don't believe in is some mass exodus of hardware enthusiasts (we can drop the "gamer" because these people are nothing like an average PC gamer) would suddenly start buying untweakable Apple boxes. They already have quality hardware, know what they want and how to look for it. I don't see how Apple could possibly sell to them without changing *everything* about the way they do business and design their product, and how it could possibly be worth it for Apple to do so.

Well, they are gamers. I didn't say they were the average gamer. The 200 thousand machines I think Apple can sell to them shows what I mean. Alienware sold about 100 thousand machines a year. VooDoo sold about 75 thousand, and the others sold less. A total market for these expensive machines was estimated to be about 350 thousand machines a year.

Quote:
What Apple *can* accommodate, however, is the 95% of PC gamers who just want a reasonably powerful machine and graphics. That they can do without changing anything about their business logic.

How?
post #258 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've been saying for a long time, that until the MacPro's sales reach a certain point, we won't see third party cards. This, then, is an important step. If ATI feels that sales are enough for them to get bck into the market, then we will benefit.

Sales of Mac Pros will never be high enough to drive the graphics card market.

On the other hand, a mid range consumer Mac where the user can choose his own video card definitely would do that.
post #259 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What high end? That's been gone for some time. Neither company has produced anything new and exciting for some time.

High end ≠ new and exciting. High end is just the fastest stuff that is out. nVidia has held the crown for a long time now. They are not in a position where they *can* be desperate.
Quote:
How?

Isn't this obvious? Desktop with desktop parts. The average gamer only wants sufficient performance to run games, not the overkill of the high end graphics parts, or absolute waste like the Mac Pro's workstation parts and cores games will never use. It's easy to get sufficient performance and typical Apple margins into a 1100€ box with integrated graphics and one open slot, or 1300€ box with 8800/3870 class graphics built in. I'm certain of that, because I just bought a computer like that with nothing but quality parts, and the total without OS was 850€. I'd have paid a couple hundred more to make the machine a Mac with the option of running OS X officially, but there's no way I'd pay two and half times as much and only get the same performance (Mac Pro).
post #260 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

Thank you for this information. Not saying you ever said it, but many people on other boards continually say the desktop market is dying. Well, er, um, I guess not its' sales increased 12%,

Actually, since it is 12% growth for the entire PC market and it isn't broken out and we know that laptop sales growth exceeds desktop growth is at best it is 12%. Likely it is far lower or possibly negative growth as reported in the other article.

I guess I could look for a NPD or Garner article later.
post #261 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

I give up. You are completely in your own little world and we're expected to read your mind. You write about a bunch of equipment and "one cord" and we're supposed to know that you meant one power cord on the iMac. And now you write that you didn't mean "you" you, but "you" in the general sense, rather than "he," which would have been specific. You're a real piece of work.

Awww...if someone is complaining about the number of cords on his iMac which freaking cords should you count? Gee, I dunno, how about the cords on the iMac?

Buh bye sweetheart.
post #262 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjteix View Post

Vinea,

Your answered your own question, "PC desktop sales increased 12%..." so those are not declining.

Sorry, I was being imprecise. solipsism has better numbers. As I stated in a previous post the 12% number from your article was 12% for the entire PC market and not broken out by desktop or laptop.

Quote:
If you don't know, the ratio between desktops and notebooks in PCs is still very close to 50/50 which is different from the Apple world: 60% for notebooks and 40% for desktops. Intel thinks that the notebooks sales will surpass the desktops sales in 2009/2010.

Which means what? It means all desktop sales are losing market share. If the desktop sales growth (if any) is below total market sales growth then desktops as a whole are losing share. Therefore "dying" if you like. Or mor accurately simply declining.

Quote:
The growth of the top 5 manufacturers is still between 15 and 25%, not bad for people who are still selling towers (most of them anyway).

I've seen presentations from both Dell and HP that show that laptop sales are their primary growth areas. Toshiba sells no towers. Apple's mix you say is 60/40. Acer I didn't bother looking for.

So at MOST it's 3 of 5.

Quote:
Wherever the iMac takes its sales from, it is insignificant since the industry itself is still growing in all segments.

I'm tired of looking up numbers for you guys only for you to nitpick them. YOU find a NPD or Gartner article that CLEARLY shows that desktop sales are growing relative to the total market.

Otherwise, desktop and tower shares in decline as clearly indicated by negative retail sales growth and other indicators. Desktop sales growth is likely what is becoming insignificant with much of the growth occuring in notebooks.
post #263 of 330
Oh heck here...desktops are in decline in both US and Europe:

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...es-decline.htm

"Notebooks continued to drive growth across the region with shipments recording an increase of over 43% year on year, while desktops suffered from the market contraction in Western Europe and declined by 1.7%, boosting the share of notebooks to over 55% of total EMEA shipments."

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUK21194708

Go nitpick that it's only the US and Europe numbers and desktops aren't in decline at all.
post #264 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post


For a tower you simply can't sell at a premium .

You lost any credibility you had right there. There are a lot of companies would disagree including Apple. You say you would support Apple if they released a tower, but all you do is attack anyone who might want something different than what Apple currently offers. Apple gets the credit when it does amazing things, but it should also here it when needs are not being met. A community full of yes men doesn't help, especially when the incomming switchers aren't going to be as radical or loyal. You might be here to feel different or superior or whatever to the average computer user, but there are those of us here that the OS is the difference to.
post #265 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

You lost any credibility you had right there. There are a lot of companies would disagree including Apple.

Mkay. Name a premiuum brand (desktop) tower maker:

Sony. Gone.
Toshiba. Gone.
IBM. Gone.

Apple sells workstations. Not premium branded desktop towers.

Dell and HP DO sell premium towers at the high end but they are high volume sellers that drove the above companies out of the market.

The only "premium" tower makers cater pretty much exclusively to the gamer market. Even there Alienware is now part of Dell.

The conclusion is that while you can STILL be a premium brand notebook maker (Sony, Toshiba, etc), you no longer can in the tower market. It's a commodity market with commodity pricing.

It would be interesting to know how many high end XPS systems Dell actually sells.

Quote:
You say you would support Apple if they released a tower, but all you do is attack anyone who might want something different than what Apple currently offers.

And all you do is constantly whine that Apple doesn't make an xMac in nearly every thread here.

Quote:
Apple gets the credit when it does amazing things, but it should also here it when needs are not being met. A community full of yes men doesn't help, especially when the incomming switchers aren't going to be as radical or loyal. You might be here to feel different or superior or whatever to the average computer user, but there are those of us here that the OS is the difference to.

Apple has a certain strategy and it appears to be working quite well in balancing user needs with maintaining margins and ASP. What no one has shown to date is that the balance would be better with an xMac than without. Either margins or ASP suffers without much indications that sales would improve to the vastly higher sales (2X or more) needed to MAINTAIN current desktop revenue much less exceed it.

That Apple has decided to ignore certain makets it deems unprofitable for them to pursue is unfortunate for you. But not necessarily for Apple.
post #266 of 330
Most of the laptops Sony and Toshiba sell are well under $1000. Real Premium. Please expand your knowledge of the computer industry past the shelves of Best Buy. Sony, when it sold desktops, sold the same OEM plastic Micro ATX crap that HP and dell sell, they just charged a lot more for, which is why they don't sell desktops anymore. The REAL premium makers are companies like Velocity Micro, Polywel, Asus, Sager, and a bunch of smaller ones. They have room to specialized because the market is big enough to have niches. Apple, on the other hand is the Mac market, so they basically have to be everything to everybody.
post #267 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Sales of Mac Pros will never be high enough to drive the graphics card market.

On the other hand, a mid range consumer Mac where the user can choose his own video card definitely would do that.

"Drive" the graphics card market? Where did you learn that phrase?

I'm not talking about "driving" any market. I'm talking about a company such as ATI deciding they can sell enough cards to make a profit. They've done it before when the only Apples that accepted graphics cards were Powermacs. I bought several myself, because Apple didn't offer a powerful enough card, or didn't offer the control panel for the cards they did offer, or didn't include the hardware features the other cards offered.

But sales of the Powermac dropped to the point where it didn't pay for ATI to bother any longer.

Now that sales of the Mac Pro are up, they're putting their toe into the water again.

But they have to give us their top of the line cards. We'll see this summer, when both ATI, which is considered to be the company to get in front of the gpu race again, and Nvidia have new lines out.
,
post #268 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


But sales of the Powermac dropped to the point where it didn't pay for ATI to bother any longer.

Now that sales of the Mac Pro are up, they're putting their toe into the water again.

ATI had made at least two different cards for G5 systems.
post #269 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

High end ≠ new and exciting. High end is just the fastest stuff that is out. nVidia has held the crown for a long time now. They are not in a position where they *can* be desperate.

They havent held much of anything. their cards are not that much better.

Right now, if you read the web sites devoted to this, it's looking as though ATI will trump them shortly, in the summer.

This is always a precarious position to be in. It's not like the cpu business, where one misstep can lead to serious problems. GPU's come out with too much regularity, and the purchase isn't a big deal.

It's believed that Nvidia is doing this because they want to take attention away from ATI, which has again achieved the top sales position, and is expected to have a next generation chip that will outclass Nvidia's.

Quote:
Isn't this obvious? Desktop with desktop parts. The average gamer only wants sufficient performance to run games, not the overkill of the high end graphics parts, or absolute waste like the Mac Pro's workstation parts and cores games will never use. It's easy to get sufficient performance and typical Apple margins into a 1100 box with integrated graphics and one open slot, or 1300 box with 8800/3870 class graphics built in. I'm certain of that, because I just bought a computer like that with nothing but quality parts, and the total without OS was 850. I'd have paid a couple hundred more to make the machine a Mac with the option of running OS X officially, but there's no way I'd pay two and half times as much and only get the same performance (Mac Pro).

We're talking about different types of gamers, if you haven't noticed.

I keep saying that I'm not talking about the average gamer, but the one so devoted that they are willing to spend upwards of $3,000 for a rig, exclusive of monitor. But you keep trying to steer the conversation back to those that are not relevant here.

Most of these gamers are NOT building their own boxes. If they were, then Alienware, VooDoo and others wouldn't have had that hi end market.

There are several hundred thousand of those every year. If Apple does this right, there is no reason why they can't cherry pick a substantial number of those from the hi end PC manufacturers.

Why do you think Dell bought Alienware, and Hp followed by buying VooDoo?

It wasn't for their business customers. They have their own higher end PCs for that market, as well as workstations, and servers.

It was for the hi end gaming market, and the caché they thought they would get by catering to them.

But, on the game sites, plenty of these people have been saying since Apple moved to Intel that they would get a Mac, and often, specifically a MacPro, if only the right cards were available.
post #270 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Most of the laptops Sony and Toshiba sell are well under $1000. Real Premium. Please expand your knowledge of the computer industry past the shelves of Best Buy.

Toshiba has 5 models under $800. 2 models between $800 -$1000m 8 models from $1,000-$1500. 4 Models from $1,500 to $2000 and 8 models > $2,000.

So 7 sub $1000 vs 20 models above $1,000. Do they sell more Satellites than Tecras? Probably. But it is telling that they have more models above $2000 than below $1000. They have no models that appear at the $499 mark. Which the Dell Inspirons start at...so Toshiba's lineup starts nearly 50% ($699) more than Dell's ($499).

Gee...that sounds kinda premium...they leave the bottom end for Dell and HP but keep some volume starting at the lower middle end.

For Sony only the FZ series starts below $1000 at $799..and only one variant is that price: a 1.66Ghz T5450 that has a magnesium case. US, TZ, SZ, CR, NR, AR all start above $1000. The UX, TZ and AR series all start above $1500.

That sounds even more premium and it's real unlikely that Sony sells more bare bones FZs than the entire rest of their lineup. Note that the rest of the FZs are > $1000.

Try again.

(Sources were Toshiba Direct and Sony Style)
post #271 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

ATI had made at least two different cards for G5 systems.

That's what I'm saying, but they dropped them before the Mac Pros came out. When I spoke to ATi, after Apple went Intel, they said that EFI wasn't a problem for them, it was the sales numbers.
post #272 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Toshiba has 5 models under $800. 2 models between $800 -$1000m 8 models from $1,000-$1500. 4 Models from $1,500 to $2000 and 8 models > $2,000.

So 7 sub $1000 vs 20 models above $1,000. Do they sell more Satellites than Tecras? Probably. But it is telling that they have more models above $2000 than below $1000. They have no models that appear at the $499 mark. Which the Dell Inspirons start at...so Toshiba's lineup starts nearly 50% ($699) more than Dell's ($499).

Gee...that sounds kinda premium...they leave the bottom end for Dell and HP but keep some volume starting at the lower middle end.

For Sony only the FZ series starts below $1000 at $799..and only one variant is that price: a 1.66Ghz T5450 that has a magnesium case. US, TZ, SZ, CR, NR, AR all start above $1000. The UX, TZ and AR series all start above $1500.

That sounds even more premium and it's real unlikely that Sony sells more bare bones FZs than the entire rest of their lineup. Note that the rest of the FZs are > $1000.

Try again.

(Sources were Toshiba Direct and Sony Style)

Nice research.
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post #273 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Nice research.

People keep thinking that Apple is elitist in their pricing, but they're not. they just choose not to compete in a cutthroat part of the market, where profits are slim to none.

As can be seen, they aren't the only company to do so.
post #274 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

People keep thinking that Apple is elitist in their pricing, but they're not. they just choose not to compete in a cutthroat part of the market, where profits are slim to none.

As can be seen, they aren't the only company to do so.

And there is also plenty of evidence that Apple is highly competitive, and often a little cheaper, when it comes to systems using the same processor model and other analogous specs. But for some reason the "HP cheapest notebook is $400 and Apple's is $1100" argument keeps popping up.

I enjoyed the post yesterday where the Psyster quad-core machine was several hundred dollars more than a similar HP PC.
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post #275 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Nice research.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

The REAL premium makers are companies like Velocity Micro, Polywel, Asus, Sager, and a bunch of smaller ones.

I belatedly figured out your disconnect. A premium brand is like Onkyo, Denon or Sony. A boutique brand is like NAD, Harmon Kardon or Adcom that serves a small subset of the audio market (audiophiles mostly).

Sony, Toshiba, NEC, IBM, Apple are (or were in the case of IBM) premium mass market brands. Not boutique brands like Polywell or Velocity Micro.

An interesting tidbit is that Denon has #1 share in the US for surround sound receivers at 23% share.

Quote:
Apple, on the other hand is the Mac market, so they basically have to be everything to everybody.

No, they really don't.
post #276 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And there is also plenty of evidence that Apple is highly competitive, and often a little cheaper, when it comes to systems using the same processor model and other analogous specs. But for some reason the "HP cheapest notebook is $400 and Apple's is $1100" argument keeps popping up.

I enjoyed the post yesterday where the Psyster quad-core machine was several hundred dollars more than a similar HP PC.

There are always going to be people who whine about this, and that can't be helped.

There are several kinds of these people.

Those who whine just because they always whine. They haven't matured.

Those who dislike Apple, so this seems like a good excuse to continue doing so as the other reasons keep sliding away.

Those who say they want to buy an Apple product, but can't (won't) pay for one, and are therefore unhappy.

Those who say that while THEY have an Apple product, Apple will never expand their sales unless they compete for the bottom feeders as well, regardless of profitless sales there.

I'm sure people can find other excuses as well.
post #277 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Sorry, I was being imprecise. solipsism has better numbers.

No he doesn't. Here are the numbers we were looking for:

2007 numbers and 2008-2011 forecasts

Of course desktop market share is declining, they went from 100% to about 60% market share in 30 years. About 268 M PC have been sold WW in 2007, about 160 M were desktops (only 108 M were notebooks) even if the growth is negligeable it is still a huge segment and still will be for some years.

************************************

Anyway, my concern is more about models and choices for Apple's computer line-up, and all i've been saying is that I'd like Apple to offer more models in both categories: desktops and notebooks. I agree that they have done a terrific job for the last past years, and I'm glad they are growing like that, that fast. However, I think that they could offer more choices (not like Dell or HP are doing) but just like they have been doing for the MB Air, a new different model that addresses other needs from time to time, update the "dying" Mac mini or replace it with something else in the sub $1,000 price range, keep updating their products at Intel's pace (or so), mostly widen their offering to attract more people.
post #278 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The only time I've recommended 4GB or more RAM is for switchers that will be heavy virtualization users.

Even without that, I think it's easy to use more memory. I have 6GB wired + active, 4GB more inactive and still 60k swapouts. This is all without a single "pro" application running.
post #279 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's what I'm saying, but they dropped them before the Mac Pros came out. When I spoke to ATi, after Apple went Intel, they said that EFI wasn't a problem for them, it was the sales numbers.

I think the dropped one was just because it was an AGP model.

One of them was introduced after the Mac Pro was released, for the G5s with PCIe.
post #280 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think the dropped one was just because it was an AGP model.

One of them was introduced after the Mac Pro was released, for the G5s with PCIe.

Which one was that, and what happened to it?
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