or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac Software › Flash Wars: Adobe Fights for AIR with the Open Screen Project [Part 3 of 3]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Flash Wars: Adobe Fights for AIR with the Open Screen Project [Part 3 of 3] - Page 2

post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

i think these articles are spot on

I started designing websites totally in Flash a few years ago. The main reason was cross browser issues with Netscape and IE. Then I studied SEO, and found out how terrible Flash was with Search Engines. Which forced me to do double the work.

Now enters iPhone which is changing everything. Why I say this is because as of this summer, the iPhone will be available world wide and will be 3G. What this means is $$$. Tap into the 30 million plus mobile users that is forecasted equates primarily to mega advertising dollars... worldwide. That is if developers adapt to the iPhone criteria. No Flash and No Java. This means that 90% ( guessing ) of the websites out there have to be redesigned to meet the iPhone criteria.

Until Flash is allowed on the iPhone, I forecast a decline in Flash development based primarily on the advertising dollar. Same goes for MS Silvercrap.

Ed
post #42 of 64
Three articles on Flash in 3 days?!? Who do I write about getting a refund for browsing this site?

How about some Apple development related articles please.
post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post

I click on the car and it drives on again. Whoo interactive!

Dude use your arrow keys! And drive the damn thing.
post #44 of 64
Flash is necessary if you want to distribute a widget of any sort. Try embedding your ajax widget on myspace and see how far you get.

My widget, (I have both an ajax and a flex design) looks much better in flex. There are nice transitions and things that flex provides that there are no equivalents for using javascript/html.

Flex definitely allows me to do things on the web that I can't do any other way.

And for all the talk of standards, remember that Actionscript 3 is based on ECMAScript 262, like the forthcoming Javascript 2. Only Actionscript 3 is already available for your application development and it could be years before Javascript 2 ever arrives.

Long live flash!
post #45 of 64
Articles arguing how irrelevant Flash is would probably be better received on a site that wasn't plastered with Flash-based ads.
post #46 of 64
I think some of the secret to Flash video's success in take-up is that it was the only fully skinnable (and alpha-able) video web plugin. I'm not sure if that is still the case but it certainly used to be. And especially with its level of browser penetration.
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonejac View Post

Dude use your arrow keys! And drive the damn thing.

Now where's the instruction on that website to do what you just said? Most people using the web wouldn't realise they had to use the arrow keys. It's not exactly a typical web-style interface.
post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by briand View Post

Articles arguing how irrelevant Flash is would probably be better received on a site that wasn't plastered with Flash-based ads.

FTW!

Nicely put.
post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Flash Fights for AIR in Rich Internet Applications

Adobe's backup plan is to push Flash as the basis for AIR, the Adobe Integrated Runtime, which allows for the development of standalone applications using Flash tools. But Adobe has a tough fight in that market as well. Again, Microsoft is pushing Silverlight to do the same thing, and Sun has long been working to do this with Java. Google offers its own Google Web Toolkit for building standards based applications using JavaScript-based Ajax, and there are a variety of other products designed around building Ajax web applications without any dependance upon Flash...

Woah, this paragraph is either just terribly written or exposes fundamental ignorance of these technologies.

1) "Microsoft is pushing Silverlight to do the same thing [as Adobe AIR] ."
This statement is just plain wrong. The difference between these two products is essential to understanding the RIA/browser landscape. Silverlight is basically a browser-embedded version of Microsoft's .NET framework runtime, including a reduced-functionality version of the xml-based "Windows Presentation Foundation". It allows developers skilled in .NET based web/windows development to use their skills to create and embed rich-media (vector animation, video) into webpages, in addition to creating "rich internet applications" that run in the client web-browser. In essence, it's a set of tools to move .NET desktop application functionality into the browser.
Conversely, Adobe's AIR is a runtime and set of tools to move "rich internet applications" (created in flash/javascript) out of the browser and on to the desktop.
post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

What you can do with Flash can be done with other languages and a good API.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Kill it now before it's too late in my opinion.

There are many applications of flash that I don't see any other technology easily replacing anytime soon. Maybe someday when all the browers have better javascript implementations, CSS transformations, and an extensive, native, high performance SVG ("scalable vector graphics") systems can we get rid of it. Without the current implementation of Flash, What exactly would be used for high-speed vector animation? Animated gifs? Here are some applications to think about:

1) Small flash objects transparently embedded into the interface of a website for *enhanced animated presentation of products or service*
ex: Think of the frontpage or a sidebar on an e-commerce website having a flash object in place of a static image revealing new products or product updates.

2) Small flash objects used on a website for rich-media animated or video advertising.

3) Complex "all flash" presentation-type websites used for dramatic presentation of new products.
ex: new automobile "mini-sites"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimS View Post

...I definitely don't see a future for it (or Flash). Take a look at some of the leading JavaScript libraries like DOJO, JQuery, ExtJS or YUI to see where the future of RIAs is going. ExtJS, in particular, snuffs Flex for building data driven web sites. Flash (without Flex) is, at best, a nuisance. .... The death of Flash is long overdue.

As i said above, until EVERY browser on the internet has an extensive, high performance, and successfully functioning implementation of an SVG/CSS tranform system that can be readily accessed through a javascript runtime, Flash isn't going anywhere.
post #51 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by HVMediaSolutions View Post

No Flash and No Java. This means that 90% ( guessing ) of the websites out there have to be redesigned to meet the iPhone criteria.

LOL! Probably more like 10%, if even. I browse Flash-free almost exclusively, and rarely find any sites that require Flash to be usable. Almost no sites use Java, except when needed for more application-like plug-ins. Now, if you're talking about sites with 3rd party advertisements, that 90% may be closer to true, but those are blocked on my system. Sorry, I don't mind viewing text/graphics ads on a website, but they have no right to run programs on my computer (most of the ads on this site are not Flash).

Or from another perspective, if 90% of sites were unusable on the IPhone, I think we'd have heard about it long ago.

SafariBlock for Safari
http://code.google.com/p/safariblock/


FlashBlock for Firefox, Mozilla, Netscape
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/
post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

LOL! Probably more like 10%, if even. I browse Flash-free almost exclusively, and rarely find any sites that require Flash to be usable. Almost no sites use Java, except when needed for more application-like plug-ins. Now, if you're talking about sites with 3rd party advertisements, that 90% may be closer to true, but those are blocked on my system. Sorry, I don't mind viewing text/graphics ads on a website, but they have no right to run programs on my computer (most of the ads on this site are not Flash).

Or from another perspective, if 90% of sites were unusable on the IPhone, I think we'd have heard about it long ago.

SafariBlock for Safari
http://code.google.com/p/safariblock/


FlashBlock for Firefox, Mozilla, Netscape
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/

You are correct to some degree. My opinion was based upon what drives the web, advertising dollars. A small number of users may block Flash ads, however, web advertising is starting to overtake print advertising. I can't remember the numbers but the trend is heading towards web ads. Big companies are spending more of their budgets on the web and pulling back from print. Advertisers will have to create new methods of web advertising to be iPhone compliant. I can not imagine anyone passing on the possible revenue from the iPhone. Also allot of social networking sites will have to be "adjusted". As the iPhone gains increases users, you will see the iPhone platform become the number one social networking device.Think about it, being able to post photos, movies and text anywhere any time, instantly, to the degree that the iPhone can deliver. Even the best Blackberry can't compete with the iPhone. NoFlash. Businesses will change their business model before Apple does.

Ed
post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by HVMediaSolutions View Post

You are correct to some degree. My opinion was based upon what drives the web, advertising dollars. A small number of users may block Flash ads, however, web advertising is starting to overtake print advertising. I can't remember the numbers but the trend is heading towards web ads.

Yes, but what I'm saying is that a lot of the ads are not Flash either. On the main page for this site, usually only 20-25% maximum of the ads are Flash. It's certainly not 90%.
post #54 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

Yes, but what I'm saying is that a lot of the ads are not Flash either. On the main page for this site, usually only 20-25% maximum of the ads are Flash. It's certainly not 90%.

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I stated. I said that 90% of the websites out there will probably have to be updated to iPhone specs. Not 90% of Each website.

Just one more thing for us designer/ developers to consider when developing websites for clients.

Ed
post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post

Now where's the instruction on that website to do what you just said? Most people using the web wouldn't realise they had to use the arrow keys. It's not exactly a typical web-style interface.

Thats not the point. Yes, of course, if you were wanting to create site for the masses, you'd obviously make all the easy to do help content, instructions, etc etc. The point is, there's no way you can do this type of functionality in the "standards" compliant HTML/Javascript realm.
post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

There are many applications of flash that I don't see any other technology easily replacing anytime soon. Maybe someday when all the browers have better javascript implementations, CSS transformations, and an extensive, native, high performance SVG ("scalable vector graphics") systems can we get rid of it. Without the current implementation of Flash, What exactly would be used for high-speed vector animation? Animated gifs? Here are some applications to think about:

1) Small flash objects transparently embedded into the interface of a website for *enhanced animated presentation of products or service*
ex: Think of the frontpage or a sidebar on an e-commerce website having a flash object in place of a static image revealing new products or product updates.

2) Small flash objects used on a website for rich-media animated or video advertising.

3) Complex "all flash" presentation-type websites used for dramatic presentation of new products.
ex: new automobile "mini-sites"



As i said above, until EVERY browser on the internet has an extensive, high performance, and successfully functioning implementation of an SVG/CSS tranform system that can be readily accessed through a javascript runtime, Flash isn't going anywhere.

I completely agree. It would be nearly impossible to create the same visual effects one can create in Flash in any other web platform.
post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonejac View Post

I completely agree. It would be nearly impossible to create the same visual effects one can create in Flash in any other web platform.

Yep, this is the pain I'm feeling. HTML 5 is a nice idea but there are still a lot of users that don't just upgrade to the latest browser version. Ideally I would like to be able to correlate my users with the browsers they use. Over time there is a natural attrition of older browser versions but there are always a few users who continue to use old versions. In the past I've helped those users to upgrade their browser to a more capable version. I use flashblock so I can choose the flash content I want to see which eliminates most of the annoying crap but tends to disfigure sites where flash is used to replace headings and menus.

I really like javascript but I rarely see it used appropriately and some of those libraries are *big* and take a long time to download over dial-up, something it is easy to forget as a developer using a broadband connection.

Where I see air/flex being a compelling environment is for real applications that have to work on multiple OS platforms. Although a previous poster pointed out there are cookie/security issues around flash that are not well known that would discourage me from using it for the banking applications I work on.
post #58 of 64
Flash is good. I don't think there are any alternatives for Flash right now. The move to make it open source helps so that we don't have to be stuck with any security issues in Flash compromising most of our computers.

On a note, Java will be fully open sourced http://developers.slashdot.org/artic.../04/23/2037220

We really have to see what HTML 5 does and how well it is adopted. If the standards are good enough to replace plug-ins, then we can stop worrying about silver lights and flash. If you watch the Webkit blog, it is interesting to see where the technology is headed.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveclarke View Post

Yep, this is the pain I'm feeling. HTML 5 is a nice idea but there are still a lot of users that don't just upgrade to the latest browser version. Ideally I would like to be able to correlate my users with the browsers they use. Over time there is a natural attrition of older browser versions but there are always a few users who continue to use old versions. In the past I've helped those users to upgrade their browser to a more capable version. I use flashblock so I can choose the flash content I want to see which eliminates most of the annoying crap but tends to disfigure sites where flash is used to replace headings and menus.

I really like javascript but I rarely see it used appropriately and some of those libraries are *big* and take a long time to download over dial-up, something it is easy to forget as a developer using a broadband connection.

Where I see air/flex being a compelling environment is for real applications that have to work on multiple OS platforms. Although a previous poster pointed out there are cookie/security issues around flash that are not well known that would discourage me from using it for the banking applications I work on.

I think the security issues surrounding Flash are relatively trivial. It's just a matter of using well thought out security infrastructure. For example having unique per transaction user validation. The same issues Flash has with security would apply to a DHTML/AJAX web application as well. If you try to apply a "page-based" security model to an asynchronous web application of course you're going to expose yourself to lots of security holes. But if you create a security model that is based on transactions then all those issues become moot.
post #60 of 64
Well - unrelated to the discussion ... hermm, anyways

My kids were horsing around over on nick jr and low and behold up came an Adobe Flash updater - including the AIR installer. No way around this - the game can't continue w/o updating AND installing AIR. (This on an old pb 1.67) - so ok go ahead and install.

The connections little Snitch picked up were fcuking frightening - seriously. I killed the thing after about 25 attempted DIFFERENT connxn's to all sortsa sites. (Who knows how many more there would have been ... )
This has got to be one of the more insidious implementations from anybody - anywhere.

I launched the app itself expecting a pref to be able to turn off - not with Adobe these days, no prefs with teh AIR ... hmmm.
Fcuk 'em - they are really going beyond M$ in many ways.
I'm really annoyed by the cheek and the hide of this so called industry leader.

I have always liked Adobe apps - but stopped doing so around the time Warnock's days got numbered.
If it weren't for ps and ae I'd have nothing to do with this once great dev.

Sooo - booooo on you Chizens - your stooooopid app is outta there !
post #61 of 64
The author is not trying to tell you what to do or how to solve your problems. That would be near impossible.

What this article presents is the current state of affairs vs FLASH and if you read between the lines, the future.

"The marketplace will decide if Flash stays or goes. " BINGO. LIke Flash or not, companies that end up with something and try to lock everyone into using it, vs making it better and better, end up with a crap program that no one wants to use.

Adobe had a chance to make FLASH better or just create the next thing. But that cost money and reduces profits. Its cheaper to just tweak the minimum and try to advertise and force others to use what you got....... A used car salesman. I have this..... you need this....

Never skating to where the puck will be. :-(

Just a thought,
en
post #62 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

What this article presents is the current state of affairs vs FLASH...

Uh, no it doesn't. This article is from 2008.
post #63 of 64
Personally, I love flash.

With all the web page ads delivered in Flash, when I turn on "right-click flash" none of them come up! My web browsing is much quicker, I get to ignore 90% of the ads without even trying. If there is something I really want to see, I can click on it - otherwise it is just an empty box.

Sooner or later everyone will move to HTML5 and it will be more difficult to block the crap. Until then - I love Flash ads!
post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkydata View Post

Thing is, the so called web standards cannot to this day garantee that a web application will work on all browsers in the same fashion and with the same looks. I am getting tired of having to debug an application using standards that works in one browser and not the next.

The only real standard of the web is Flash. 99% penetration is a standard whether one likes it or not. period.

Even Flash is not that much of a standard by the criteria you put forth. I have seen Flash animations behave differently based on OS, browser, plugin/player and platform.

Don't blame buggy or sloppy implementation of the standards for the problems.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac Software
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac Software › Flash Wars: Adobe Fights for AIR with the Open Screen Project [Part 3 of 3]