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3G settings discovered in latest beta of iPhone firmware - Page 3

post #81 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Is it really used for voice?

Another question I have is how long does it tale to initialize a 3G connection? Why not have the connection on only when you're using a data intensive app? Say maybe if I start Safari, 3G turns on, if Safari isn't used for 5 minutes, turn off that radio?

This was a topic of discussion about a year or so when we had some Nokia engineers come in. As I understood it, when in the home network, the HLR (home location register) will poll the phone and see if it can call, do data, yada, yada, yada. 3G is part of this poll. A 3G connection is maintained to the phone but as long as no data is being passed, you are not billed. Once you use a service, i.e data, Fring, VoIP, etc.... the counter starts to tick. My understanding is that voice goes over GSM will all other services are carried via 3G data services. This applies to European (Finnish) networks and could be different in the States, as the billing practices there are different. The radio is always on but in an idle state waiting for something to do. I tried to contact my friend at Nokia to ask him this but as it is Mother's Day here in FInland, he was not avail. If you are still interested, I can contact him tomorrow for an answer.
post #82 of 126
I see three possibly reasons there was no 3G initially-

1) AT&T's 3G network was sub par
2) Including a 3G chipset would have made the iPhone .25 centimeter thicker- unacceptable to Steve
3) Apple knew it could resell a new version to the same people buying the initial iPhone.

I think 3 is the main reason. This will also create a flood of affordable used 2G iPhones which will allow Apple to expand its market to people previously put off by the high price.
post #83 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

This was a topic of discussion about a year or so when we had some Nokia engineers come in. As I understood it, when in the home network, the HLR (home location register) will poll the phone and see if it can call, do data, yada, yada, yada. 3G is part of this poll. A 3G connection is maintained to the phone but as long as no data is being passed, you are not billed. Once you use a service, i.e data, Fring, VoIP, etc.... the counter starts to tick. My understanding is that voice goes over GSM will all other services are carried via 3G data services. This applies to European (Finnish) networks and could be different in the States, as the billing practices there are different. The radio is always on but in an idle state waiting for something to do. I tried to contact my friend at Nokia to ask him this but as it is Mother's Day here in FInland, he was not avail. If you are still interested, I can contact him tomorrow for an answer.

I wasn't asking about billing but power consumption. That polling, any form of transmission or being able to receive has to have a power cost. I'm just trying to grasp the limitations.
post #84 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

I see three possibly reasons there was no 3G initially-

1) AT&T's 3G network was sub par
2) Including a 3G chipset would have made the iPhone .25 centimeter thicker- unacceptable to Steve
3) Apple knew it could resell a new version to the same people buying the initial iPhone.

I think 3 is the main reason. This will also create a flood of affordable used 2G iPhones which will allow Apple to expand its market to people previously put off by the high price.

#1 It's still subpar. They are going to have to sell the new iPhone in Apple Stores with no 3G coverage.

#2 is not known information.

I don't think the availability of used devices counts as expanding its market.
post #85 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I wasn't asking about billing but power consumption. That polling, any form of transmission or being able to receive has to have a power cost. I'm just trying to grasp the limitations.

Yes, you will take a power hit, but not much more from what I remember. The hit comes in when you make a dedicated call via an application. During the poll, there is a two-way conversation between the phone and the nearest BSC/BTS.
post #86 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by probably View Post

What are you talking about? Are there 3G data plans that aren't unlimited?

No, don't worry, I'm talking about unlocked iPhones.
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post #87 of 126
Eh, icedTea1966 is banned. Thanks for the heads-ups, everyone.
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post #88 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by probably View Post

#1 It's still subpar. They are going to have to sell the new iPhone in Apple Stores with no 3G coverage.

#2 is not known information.

I don't think the availability of used devices counts as expanding its market.

3G coverage is very good around urban centers, where it's most important. I really don't think Apple cares if people in Nebraska can't get 3G.

#2 was just sarcasm. Apple seems to place form factor above everything else. I believe 3G chipsets are larger so I don't think it would be too outlandish to believe Steve would reject it if it made the iPhone a tiny bit larger.

I think used devices does count as expanding the market. If someone bought a 2G iPhone and sells it to buy a 3G phone, that's expanding the market isn't it? If the original was 3G, the owner would not have sold it.
post #89 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

3G coverage is very good around urban centers, where it's most important. I really don't think Apple cares if people in Nebraska can't get 3G.

#2 was just sarcasm. Apple seems to place form factor above everything else. I believe 3G chipsets are larger so I don't think it would be too outlandish to believe Steve would reject it if it made the iPhone a tiny bit larger.

I think used devices does count as expanding the market. If someone bought a 2G iPhone and sells it to buy a 3G phone, that's expanding the market isn't it? If the original was 3G, the owner would not have sold it.

There are still a handful of stores in states like Massachusetts, Connecticut and California that don't have it in the area.

Also financials would view the 3G iPhone itself as broadening the market, never the fact that the dated hardware is subsequently traded more frequently post release. You should view it as: the next iPhone is the device that's broadening mobile OS X penetration/MobileSafari statistics/what have you. The new model is the actual, measurable catalyst.

I do want to know what happens two years from now if you sign up for AT&T using a used EDGE iPhone you just bought - is revenue sharing still in effect?
post #90 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

This was a topic of discussion about a year or so when we had some Nokia engineers come in. As I understood it, when in the home network, the HLR (home location register) will poll the phone and see if it can call, do data, yada, yada, yada. 3G is part of this poll. A 3G connection is maintained to the phone but as long as no data is being passed, you are not billed. Once you use a service, i.e data, Fring, VoIP, etc.... the counter starts to tick. My understanding is that voice goes over GSM will all other services are carried via 3G data services. This applies to European (Finnish) networks and could be different in the States, as the billing practices there are different. The radio is always on but in an idle state waiting for something to do. I tried to contact my friend at Nokia to ask him this but as it is Mother's Day here in FInland, he was not avail. If you are still interested, I can contact him tomorrow for an answer.

OK I don't claim to be an expert on this and I maybe wrong but I think calls are made over 3G. I'll explain my reasoning.

1. countries like Japan don't have a 2G network anymore. They are 3G only as far as I know.

2. 3G standby times are normally the same as 2G standby times yet the talktime is vastly less on 3G. If it did the call over 2G and having the 3G radio on in standby makes no difference to standby times then it would make sense that talktime would be close to the same.

3. As far as I know for each small band of spectrum a cell tower can only handle 8 active connections (Calls in use). I think its something like 6 are used for voice and 2 for data. Of course they have a lot of slightly different frequencies to get more numbers active capacity. 3G on the other hand can handle vastly more connections per frequency. This gives the network more call and data capacity using less equipment making it cheaper for them in the long run over 2G.

Someone correct me if I am wrong?

By the way I'm from the UK and have had many 3G phones before the iPhone downgrade back to 2G
post #91 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLaneJB View Post

OK I don't claim to be an expert on this and I maybe wrong but I think calls are made over 3G. I'll explain my reasoning.

1. countries like Japan don't have a 2G network anymore. They are 3G only as far as I know.

2. 3G standby times are normally the same as 2G standby times yet the talktime is vastly less on 3G. If it did the call over 2G and having the 3G radio on in standby makes no difference to standby times then it would make sense that talktime would be close to the same.

3. As far as I know for each small band of spectrum a cell tower can only handle 8 active connections (Calls in use). I think its something like 6 are used for voice and 2 for data. Of course they have a lot of slightly different frequencies to get more numbers active capacity. 3G on the other hand can handle vastly more connections per frequency. This gives the network more call and data capacity using less equipment making it cheaper for them in the long run over 2G.

Someone correct me if I am wrong?

By the way I'm from the UK and have had many 3G phones before the iPhone downgrade back to 2G

Cheers mate,

I do not recall all of the specifics as well. Like I mentioned, I can try and contact my friend tomorrow and get the skinny on the facts. I am currently in Finland which probably has some of the best networks in the world, and I know that leaving my phone on 3G all the time allows me to run my N82 for about 2 or 3 days of normal usage. If I use any 3G apps, the standby time is reduced, but I just recharge and drive on.
post #92 of 126
I used to have a 3G smartphone, and I saw how the info gets passed along.

3G is a type of data transmission, technically called HSPA (HSDPA,on the iPhone, and the higher HSUPA and HSOPA, not on the iPhone).

HSPA = High Speed Packet Access - 3G class
HSDPA = High Speed Downlink Packet Access - 3G type
HSUPA = High Speed Uplink Packet Access - 3G type
HSOPA = High Speed OFPM Packet Access - also known as Super 3G - (theoretical only)

My phone only connected to 3G when it started transmitting data. It appears this switch allows the Phone to jump from and to 2g and 3G.

Good for us and for battery time tho
post #93 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Is it really used for voice?

Another question I have is how long does it tale to initialize a 3G connection? Why not have the connection on only when you're using a data intensive app? Say maybe if I start Safari, 3G turns on, if Safari isn't used for 5 minutes, turn off that radio?

A few basics about mobile phones: The 'generations' of mobile phones match changes in in the air interface, or the type of protocol that the radio uses. The air interface is the connection through which all communication is performed and there is only one active at a time, unless some sort of hand off is being performed between two air interfaces.

GSM is a digital mobile phone standard. That means that all communication is digitally encoded, so it's all data. Voice is encoded as numbers and sent across the airwaves to the base station. When a data connection is made it uses the same interface as voice, but handled somewhat differently due to different requirements.

So, all voice and data is sent in 3G when the phone is transmitting in 3G. 3G is less efficient than 2G so you will find less talk time for the same phone when in 3G mode.
post #94 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So if I'm following here, the contention of some posters is that Apple went out of their way to put a shitty, old tech chip in the iPhone for no reason whatsoever, since their claims about battery life and American 3G rollout are bogus.

And this happened because all board level design decisions are made by Jobs, who likes to put out crappy products that he can market the hell out of to fools, just because he's such a dick and a charlatan. I would imagine his engineers came to him with the correct chip, but Jobs demanded they downgrade it.

But that can't be it, because Apple doesn't have any competent engineers (they probably couldn't even figure out what was on the market, and just grabbed the first thing that came to hand), since random dudes on the internet can easily see how pointlessly stupid the iPhone design is.

And these random dudes come by their expertise because they are phone owners.

That about it?

On the nose, brother.
post #95 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by lundy View Post

Eh, icedTea1966 is banned. Thanks for the heads-ups, everyone.

Can you also send a power spike to his home connection?

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post #96 of 126
Here is a test for some of you who say 3G don't effect battery life. Look at talk time, it seems to me it support what merdhead just said. Unless someone has another test that shows otherwise I have to say that 3G power consumption was probably one the most important factors in using EDGE on the iPhone.

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036
post #97 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Here is a test for some of you who say 3G don't effect battery life. Look at talk time, it seems to me it support what merdhead just said. Unless someone has another test that shows otherwise I have to say that 3G power consumption was probably one the most important factors in using EDGE on the iPhone.

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036

Putting the iPhone results aside and just focusing on the WCDMA vs. EDGE on the Samsung Blackjack that Anand tested we see some surprising results.



The 22% drop in web browsing isn't bad, but the 52% drop in talk time is abysmal.
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post #98 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Can you also send a power spike to his home connection?

No, but we do have one additional weapon if needed.
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post #99 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by federmoose View Post

stop trolling. we have no use for trollers here.

Why don't you wait until you've been here at least a month before telling anyone what to do?

post #100 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Here is a test for some of you who say 3G don't effect battery life. Look at talk time, it seems to me it support what merdhead just said. Unless someone has another test that shows otherwise I have to say that 3G power consumption was probably one the most important factors in using EDGE on the iPhone.

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036

I do not think anyone here said that 3G does not effect battery performance. The key is how is 3G being utilized. If you have your phone on, and it is connected to a 3G network but you do not pass any data, battery life will be about normal, but if you are VoIP'ng, Fring'ng, Skype'ng, xfer'ng large amounts of data, you will see a substancial drop in battery life. Not to mention that these are lab tests rather than real world tests. How many people surf for hours and hours on their iPhone or Samsung? I could see sitting and watching a vid or listening to music as a better representation of real world activity.

My next question is: what is the problem with simply charging your phone when the battery runs down?
post #101 of 126
Well, the problem is that some people can't charge it on the run (like in a car) and they don't want the inconvenience of 300 iPhone chargers everywhere just to make sure the iPhone will last the day.
post #102 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

GSM is a digital mobile phone standard. That means that all communication is digitally encoded, so it's all data. Voice is encoded as numbers and sent across the airwaves to the base station. When a data connection is made it uses the same interface as voice, but handled somewhat differently due to different requirements.

Lots of people use "voice" and "data" to differentiate circuit-switched from packet-switched connections. GSM used to use circuit switched connections for data too (back in the day)... you got 9kbps, or 14kbps if you had a high speed phone. Of course, it was billed by the minute and came as part of your free minutes allowance, so it was actually way cheaper for a time.

Amorya
post #103 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post


And these random dudes come by their expertise because they are phone owners.

That about it?


That about it!


PS: You hit the nail on the head with that observation - many of these guys spout stuff with an arrogance that implies that they actually know what they are talking about, when it seems fairly obvious that at least a few of them have no clue.
post #104 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Wow, a switch to save battery life when you don't want to use 3G. Very innovative. I wonder why the other phone manufacturers who have had 3G phones out for years already didn't think of that?

My HTC Kaiser does this.
post #105 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolution_Theory View Post

My HTC Kaiser does this.

You missed the sarcasm in his post.
post #106 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I do not think anyone here said that 3G does not effect battery performance. The key is how is 3G being utilized. If you have your phone on, and it is connected to a 3G network but you do not pass any data, battery life will be about normal, but if you are VoIP'ng, Fring'ng, Skype'ng, xfer'ng large amounts of data, you will see a substancial drop in battery life.

When you say things like this you don't sound like an iPhone user at all. The iPhone comes with seven apps that require data. Their are nearly 2000 web based services for the iPhone. Apple designed the iPhone with the purpose to use large amounts of data.

Quote:
Not to mention that these are lab tests rather than real world tests. How many people surf for hours and hours on their iPhone or Samsung? I could see sitting and watching a vid or listening to music as a better representation of real world activity.

The iPhone only has around 3% of the worldwide mobile phone marketshare but is number two in worldwide mobile phone data usage. How do you think those incredibly disproportionate numbers happened?

Quote:
My next question is: what is the problem with simply charging your phone when the battery runs down?

My mother has a Blackberry with 3G from her job. She complains the battery runs down so quickly she just turns it off during the middle of the day.
post #107 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

When you say things like this you don't sound like an iPhone user at all. The iPhone comes with seven apps that require data. Their are nearly 2000 web based services for the iPhone. Apple designed the iPhone with the purpose to use large amounts of data.

Other than the browser, and checking your email every minute, you will not constantly be online? I have a 3G phone, several actually but for the sake of this discussion I will stick to my N82. I use it for VoIP calls, email, and checking web sites throughout the day. Depending on the extent, my battery life will vary. More 3G apps, less battery life. I think I made this clear several times. You have also alluded to the fact that you do not think I have an iPhone. Let's make this clear Tenobell. I do not care what you think I do or do not have. I could make so assumptions about your apparent understanding of 3G but I will keep them to myself or gladly PM them to you if you like.

Quote:
The iPhone only has around 3% of the worldwide mobile phone marketshare but is number two in worldwide mobile phone data usage. How do you think those incredibly disproportionate numbers happened?

Well, you can probably tip your hat to the users in China, or continue to listen to the o2 CEO. Aegis or someone else mentioned this very thing. Does the N95, N82, E90, and E61i appear as a Safari browser based on the Webkit? I am not sure but this could surly count in stats if someone is browsing on a Nokia but it looks like they are on an iPhone. I am sure someone here can better explain this as I do not know.

Quote:
My mother has a Blackberry with 3G from her job. She complains the battery runs down so quickly she just turns it off during the middle of the day.

Not much experience with BB's. I can tell you about SE and Nokia's and the networks here in the Nordic area. There is greater 3G density here which could help with battery life as the phone always has an optimum signal. If she is using AT&T, you might want to have a look at this again: http://darlamack.blogs.com/darlamack...playing-t.html.
post #108 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Other than the browser, and checking your email every minute, you will not constantly be online? I have a 3G phone, several actually but for the sake of this discussion I will stick to my N82. I use it for VoIP calls, email, and checking web sites throughout the day. Depending on the extent, my battery life will vary. More 3G apps, less battery life. I think I made this clear several times. You have also alluded to the fact that you do not think I have an iPhone. Let's make this clear Tenobell. I do not care what you think I do or do not have. I could make so assumptions about your apparent understanding of 3G but I will keep them to myself or gladly PM them to you if you like.

I cannot say you don't own an iPhone. But it clearly sounds like you don't understand its strengths or usefulness.

For example you don't seem to understand the point or usefulness of web apps. Web apps are not the same experience as surfing the web on a browser.. The point is to provide a web based service that feels as though you are using native software.

You click an icon it opens up an application to a dedicated service. Go to American Airlines to check ticket prices, go to Bank of America to look at your bank account, Facebook to send a message to a friend, AOL Money & Finance to check stocks, Wikipedia to check a fact, read the New York Times, Meebo to instant message, Movifone to check movie times. We use all of these services often throughout time.

The user is not simply using a browser, they are using a specific online service.


Quote:
Well, you can probably tip your hat to the users in China, or continue to listen to the o2 CEO. Aegis or someone else mentioned this very thing. Does the N95, N82, E90, and E61i appear as a Safari browser based on the Webkit? I am not sure but this could surly count in stats if someone is browsing on a Nokia but it looks like they are on an iPhone. I am sure someone here can better explain this as I do not know.

The iPhone is the number one mobile browser in the US. Their are more iPhones in the US than in China and Russia.

You suggesting we should not listen to O2's CEO about the data use on O2's network?

No S60 does not appear as Safari. They both use the same rendering engine but they are not the same browser. You keep reaching to make a connection but its not there.

Quote:
Not much experience with BB's. I can tell you about SE and Nokia's and the networks here in the Nordic area. There is greater 3G density here which could help with battery life as the phone always has an optimum signal. If she is using AT&T, you might want to have a look at this again.

Her company uses Verizon.
post #109 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Does the N95, N82, E90, and E61i appear as a Safari browser based on the Webkit?

No, it doesn't appear as Safari, but the User Agent mentions Apple's Safari, just like it mentions Mozilla's Gecko. The User Agent clearly states that it is a Nokia N95 running WebKit on a Symbian OS, but shoddy research or slanted reporting could lump other WebKit browsers in with the iPhone's Safari.

Only searching for WebKit or Safari to increase browser marketshare would be the same as searching for Gecko to increase Firefox marketshare for all non-IE browsers or Mozilla to state a 100% browser marketshare because they all say Mozilla.

The correct method would be to look for terms like iPhone or iPod to get all iPhone/Touch browser usage or look for Mac OS X minus the terms iPhone and iPod to get the percentage of Mac users compared to other OSes.

Nokia N95 »
Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.2; U; Series60/3.1 NokiaN95/11.0.026; Profile MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413

iPhone »
Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3

iPod Touch »
Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3

Mac/ Safari »
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_2; en-us) AppleWebKit/526.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Safari/525.18

Mac/ Firefox »
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080201 Firefox/2.0.0.12

IE 7 »
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0)

IE 6 »
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1)
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post #110 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

You missed the sarcasm in his post.

and he missed the point of the article.
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post #111 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLaneJB View Post

Right but the iPhone according to rumours had been worked on for roughly 3 years. So this chipset wasn't around at the time they started working on. I suspect they wanted to release the iPhone earlier than when they did but even if they didn't it would have been a risk to base their design on a chip which would hopefully be ship in the summer 2007. Clearly until that ships to your factories in large enough quantities you cannot then begin making your phone in large quantities either.

Simply put, the chipset wasn't ready in time.

Yes, that's probably so though 18 months is a long time still between sampling and release for them to change the comms board. Not enough quantity however would be my reading of why it came out with such meagre hardware specs - it was already old when it launched.

Add to that them having to write the software and design the UI, including pulling team members off the Mac OS team and you can see how they wanted to ship something rather than have cutting edge hardware and brand new chips. Plus, in the US market, the need for 3G wasn't important anyway and the missing features just scream out that it was designed for the US, not Europe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLaneJB View Post

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Nokia. Just I think people bash the iPhone for a few missing features but miss the bigger picture in that the underlying hardware and OS is actually pretty good.

With certain caveats I agree but I'd hope when we see iPhone 2.0, the first teardowns will make the iPhone 1.0 look like an antique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLaneJB View Post

Nokia's are very flexable and if they can ever get their interface close to Apple's then I cannot see Apple doing so well in the phone market. However Nokia seem to be like Microsoft in that they want to keep backwards compatibility and a similar UI which people know. This I feel is preventing them from moving forwards on the UI front. S60 has looked the same pretty much since it launched, it's in dire need of bringing up to date. Also some of the options are well hidden when they shouldn't be, it's not always logically located. So it needs a rethink of their settings and menu layout as well in some areas.

Totally agree but then I'm more a UIQ fan than S60. IMHO Nokia have done great damage to Symbian as an OS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLaneJB View Post

I hope Apple keep doing well in the phone market just to keep the big players on their feet. I think before Apple came along they were just cruising happily along. They didn't need to put quite as much R&D in as they probably are putting in now. I'll look forward to seeing what Nokia puts out in a year or two, the Nokia Tube just isn't competition to the iPhone but a knee jerk reaction to get something out quick. Apple won't sit still either of course.

Yep. I'm hoping SE's new Experia X1 isn't a sign of them chucking in the towel with Symbian and UIQ too. UIQ 3 also lost some of the usability for the sake of fancy animations so I hope they learn about usability again from Apple, not just the translucent graphics and animation.
post #112 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I guess it is no different than some here who actually think Steve Jobs is their best friend and that he develops products just for them. or those who actually think Apple is looking out for their best interest. Everyone one here has their own delusions of grandeur it seems.

Well, it is somewhat different, in that no one here ever claims Steve Jobs is their best friend or that he develops products just for them.
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post #113 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Yes, that's probably so though 18 months is a long time still between sampling and release for them to change the comms board. Not enough quantity however would be my reading of why it came out with such meagre hardware specs - it was already old when it launched.

Putting together the best device doesn't necessarily mean every component has to be the most cutting edge to be effective. No phone manufacturer uses all of the most cutting edge components in any one handset. Compromises must be made.

Your assertion of meager or old wireless tech are a red herring from real world usage. It was enough to garner the iPhone high internet marketshare in a few short months.

Quote:
With certain caveats I agree but I'd hope when we see iPhone 2.0, the first teardowns will make the iPhone 1.0 look like an antique.

What do you feel is available now that will accomplish this to your satisfaction? If Apple used the best of every component, how do you know for sure these will all work together to equalize performance and power efficiency.


Quote:
Add to that them having to write the software and design the UI, including pulling team members off the Mac OS team and you can see how they wanted to ship something rather than have cutting edge hardware and brand new chips. Plus, in the US market, the need for 3G wasn't important anyway and the missing features just scream out that it was designed for the US, not Europe.

Of the missing features outside of 3G everything else is just software.
post #114 of 126
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Originally Posted by sennen View Post

and he missed the point of the article.

Could be.
post #115 of 126
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I cannot say you don't own an iPhone. But it clearly sounds like you don't understand its strengths or usefulness.

True, never say "anything" in a way. You infer it often. TBaggins called you out on this on several occasions. None the less, I understand rather clearly its usefulness, strengths, but I also point out its weaknesses which you constantly fail to do. As I asked a few pages back, how many previous "smartphones" have you used. If the iPhone is your first, your views will naturally be slanted in favor of the iPhone and this is okay. However, I have been using smartphones since their inception. I have seen, good ones, bad ones, and some that are lost in the middle. The iPhone, (IN MY OPINION), is not a smartphone but a mobile media device. It is less smart in the phone area but quite intelligent in the media playback mileu. I have also mentioned this several times but this seems to be lost on you as you then start to mention web apps, 3G speeds, etc..... My only gripe with the iPhone is that it is less of a phone and more an iPod.

Quote:
For example you don't seem to understand the point or usefulness of web apps. Web apps are not the same experience as surfing the web on a browser.. The point is to provide a web based service that feels as though you are using native software.

Web apps were only invented because Apple locked the phone down to native apps. Wait a few weeks and see how many web apps are still around. This is a cop out excuse and nothing moving the goal post session.

Quote:
You click an icon it opens up an application to a dedicated service. Go to American Airlines to check ticket prices, go to Bank of America to look at your bank account, Facebook to send a message to a friend, AOL Money & Finance to check stocks, Wikipedia to check a fact, read the New York Times, Meebo to instant message, Movifone to check movie times. We use all of these services often throughout time.

Moot point. Answered above.

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The user is not simply using a browser, they are using a specific online service.

I know.

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The iPhone is the number one mobile browser in the US. Their are more iPhones in the US than in China and Russia.

Well that would surly make it the number one mobile browser in the US, but what does this have to do with the phone functionality, other using EDGE? You are just sticking in stuff you read to try and bolster the fact that as a phone the iPhone is lacking.

Quote:
You suggesting we should not listen to O2's CEO about the data use on O2's network?

I think some o2 users pointed out how the data is misleading. I can not remember if it was this thread or another one, but the results were skewed to favor o2's claims.

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No S60 does not appear as Safari. They both use the same rendering engine but they are not the same browser. You keep reaching to make a connection but its not there.

If you read what I wrote, I said I was not sure but I thought it might based on the design of the webkit. Subsequently it was noted that the user agent should make the proper browser identification. What connection am I trying to make? Do you mean the possible misreporting of the user agent, which is actually possible and would give inflationary statistics?

Quote:
Her company uses Verizon.

I can't speak for their 3G service as I never use it. As I stated, I can provide back ground info on Finnish and Scandinavian, and some Nordic networks.
post #116 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No, it doesn't appear as Safari, but the User Agent mentions Apple's Safari, just like it mentions Mozilla's Gecko. The User Agent clearly states that it is a Nokia N95 running WebKit on a Symbian OS, but shoddy research or slanted reporting could lump other WebKit browsers in with the iPhone's Safari.

Only searching for WebKit or Safari to increase browser marketshare would be the same as searching for Gecko to increase Firefox marketshare for all non-IE browsers or Mozilla to state a 100% browser marketshare because they all say Mozilla.

The correct method would be to look for terms like iPhone or iPod to get all iPhone/Touch browser usage or look for Mac OS X minus the terms iPhone and iPod to get the percentage of Mac users compared to other OSes.

Nokia N95 »
Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.2; U; Series60/3.1 NokiaN95/11.0.026; Profile MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413

iPhone »
Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3

iPod Touch »
Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3

Mac/ Safari »
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_2; en-us) AppleWebKit/526.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Safari/525.18

Mac/ Firefox »
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080201 Firefox/2.0.0.12

IE 7 »
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0)

IE 6 »
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1)

Thanks for the info. I knew someone out there would know.
post #117 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Plus, in the US market, the need for 3G wasn't important anyway and the missing features just scream out that it was designed for the US, not Europe.

Exactly.

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rtain caveats I agree but I'd hope when we see iPhone 2.0, the first teardowns will make the iPhone 1.0 look like an antique.

Remove the UI and you have quite an old phone anyway.

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With certain caveats I agree but then I'm more a UIQ fan than S60. IMHO Nokia have done great damage to Symbian as an OS.

I was SE all the way until they decided to not support Apple products. Then they had an "oh shit" moment and decided that they made another stupid decision and now are trying to play catch up.

Quote:
Yep. I'm hoping SE's new Experia X1 isn't a sign of them chucking in the towel with Symbian and UIQ too. UIQ 3 also lost some of the usability for the sake of fancy animations so I hope they learn about usability again from Apple, not just the translucent graphics and animation.

Agreed.
post #118 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Of the missing features outside of 3G everything else is just software.

But this is the rub. Apple prides itself on the "missing" features of others. But they are guilty of it themselves. You can't have it both ways, either they rushed the iPhone to get it out or they purposely neglected to add missing features.
post #119 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

True, never say "anything" in a way. You infer it often. TBaggins called you out on this on several occasions.

No I suppose I don't make as definitive statements as you guys. A lot of this is just personal preference.

Quote:
None the less, I understand rather clearly its usefulness, strengths, but I also point out its weaknesses which you constantly fail to do. As I asked a few pages back, how many previous "smartphones" have you used. If the iPhone is your first, your views will naturally be slanted in favor of the iPhone and this is okay.

Those weaknesses are only weakness if the missing features are absolutely necessary. Thus far from surveys conducted the most used features on smartphones are email, SMS/MMS, and voice. Not every other esoteric feature you feel the iPhone is required to have.

Sending video through bluetooth from one phone to another sounds neat, but not likely to become a major must have feature.

Quote:
However, I have been using smartphones since their inception. I have seen, good ones, bad ones, and some that are lost in the middle. The iPhone, (IN MY OPINION), is not a smartphone but a mobile media device. It is less smart in the phone area but quite intelligent in the media playback mileu. I have also mentioned this several times but this seems to be lost on you as you then start to mention web apps, 3G speeds, etc..... My only gripe with the iPhone is that it is less of a phone and more an iPod.

Yes you've stated this several times. Your vision of what a smartphone should do is more aligned with what Nokia and S/E have created. What would be the point of making a competing phone if it simply copied what they've already done? Apple is approaching the smartphone differently.

The flaw in this reasoning is that media playback is one app of many. I mention web apps because these are functions that the iPhone does as well. You choose to ignore this because it is a strength the iPhone has over its competitors. The iPhone can perform what ever software is developed for the iPhone OS platform.

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Web apps were only invented because Apple locked the phone down to native apps. Wait a few weeks and see how many web apps are still around. This is a cop out excuse and nothing moving the goal post session.

On your personal computer do you have a native app for every thing you do? Online banking doesn't need a native app, nor does FaceBook, nor airline tickets, or movie tickets. Most of these services are handled by dedicated web sites. That is what web apps are.

True enough some web apps will work better as native apps. But many only need to be websites the same way they are on your personal computer.


Quote:
Well that would surly make it the number one mobile browser in the US, but what does this have to do with the phone functionality, other using EDGE? You are just sticking in stuff you read to try and bolster the fact that as a phone the iPhone is lacking.

You insinuated that iPhone had such a high data marketshare because of China.


Quote:
I think some o2 users pointed out how the data is misleading. I can not remember if it was this thread or another one, but the results were skewed to favor o2's claims.

I'm not sure how anyone could know that O2 skewed the data. Unless you have access to their numbers.

Quote:
If you read what I wrote, I said I was not sure but I thought it might based on the design of the webkit. Subsequently it was noted that the user agent should make the proper browser identification. What connection am I trying to make? Do you mean the possible misreporting of the user agent, which is actually possible and would give inflationary statistics?

Several times you've attempted to tie S60 and Safari together because they both share webkit. They are different browsers and webkit does not make them the same.
post #120 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

But this is the rub. Apple prides itself on the "missing" features of others. But they are guilty of it themselves. You can't have it both ways, either they rushed the iPhone to get it out or they purposely neglected to add missing features.

No, Apple prides itself on design and ease of use. People frequently complain about missing features in Apple's products. History is paved with the predictions of Apple products that would fail because of some missing feature. Too few USB ports, slower graphic cards, FM radio receiver, finger print reader, the list goes on.


Why Doesn't Apple Face The Innovator's Dilemma?

Apple doesn't sell products based on laundry lists of features. In fact, their products often lack features considered standard by competitors. Instead, Apple differentiates itself on design. Their products feel right. And to their customers, "good enough" design will never be compelling, regardless of how high Apple sets the bar. By choosing to compete on design instead of technology alone, Apple seems to have found a loophole in the Innovator's Dilemma.
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