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post #161 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Actually, the Bible can be quoted to most any ends... even the devil's.

And, even if you firmly believe that being gay is a sin (which I don't believe), try following the example of Jesus, who did not shun Mary Magdalene (a prostitute) and told the thief who was being crucified with him that he would be in heaven with him.

Seems like there's an awful lot of bigots out there who want to use the Bible as a shield to justify their own hate. It's sad, really, but nothing new.

Finally... "ignore it for the sake of my own sin". Uhh... really? You automatically assume that anyone who stands up for gays is gay themselves? LOL, wrong. But I think your assumption says more about you than it does about me.


.

If you lecture on the Bible you should know what is & isn't from it.

Mary Magdalen is never referred to as a prostitute in the Bible, that is an ideal that came about in later biblical studies. She is only called an adulteress (at least if you take the Talmudic meaning of Magdalen). In the Talmud Magdalen means curling women's hair, which is a reference to prostitution. She was also possibly called this because she was from Magdala of Tiberias. The only certain thing is that according to the Bible Jesus cast 7 demons from her.

The thief was commended by Christ for his faith, as was Mary. It has nothing to do with status & everything to do with repentance & humility. In the eyes of Christ when you turn from sin towards him you are no longer who you once were but a new creation.
post #162 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Read Richard Dawkins, to learn about how incredibly cool evolutionary biology is.

You should see the movie "EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed."
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/

Richard Dawkins is interviewed quite a bit. The end is hilarious. He suggested that the earth could have been 'seeded' by aliens. Some say that the religious folks are nuts because they believe in that black box called "God made it." But Dawkins and other atheistic evolutionists would rather have us believe in the black box that "it happened by accident" or "space aliens seeded the earth." Either way, it's called....faith.
post #163 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

This is a perfect example of "Love the sinner, hate the sin." While we are all created by God and should be loved, some things that we do are not good. Jesus didn't condone Mary Magdaline's profession. He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Now go, and leave your life of sin."

The same applies to the person who behaves homosexually -- we are not to condemn them, but they should 'go and leave their life of sin.'


You seem to be arguing for some form of religious tolerance... all well and good, though from your stance I doubt you have any homosexual friends (that you know about, lol).

But unfortunately, there are plenty of ppl using religion to justify their hatred... like these pinheads:






So what's uglier... being gay or religion being twisted like this? Very obviously, the latter.

When I see more religious ppl speaking out against their intolerant, hateful brethren, then I'll have more respect for organized religion in general. But far too many 'people of faith' just let it pass, in the same way that moderate Muslims often remain silent on the excesses of Muslim fundamentalism. Because, to some extent, they sorta kinda agree with them.

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post #164 of 426
[QUOTE=MiMiC;1251211]I don't need to be careful of what i say. I can be as offensive as i want, it's my right!! Besides, the gay agenda offends me, so what about that? Right, me being offended of you matters not, but you being offended by me does


Quote:
Um, God does hate gay sin, if you would actually read and believe what He wrote. Calls them an abomination. That's very descriptive to me. If you want to try and ignore it for the sake of your sin, sure, whatever.

Leviticus 20
13. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc. Quoting Leviticus may leave some to think you may be showing your ignorance in an attempt to hide a narrow minded and bigoted view of others. You see, Leviticus says a lot more than not lying down with other men which by the way has been interpreted to mean something about homosexuality with no proof that it actually does. If you ever actually read the bible you need to read all of Leviticus and you need to doggedly follow it as you do the part you like to quote. Here's what I mean:

Homophobic bigots often quote two verses that seem to be against gay people. They appear in the book of Leviticus, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev 18:22) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13) Look at other scripture verses in the same book (Lev.). This proves that those that are so enthusiastic about quoting the book of Lev. to affirm their prejudice against gays become awfully quiet when it comes to other verses in the very same book. They choose the Bible as the tool to affirm and legitimize hate. The truth is that they just don't like gay people. "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. His blood shall be upon him." (Lev 20:9) Imagine what would happen if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. The above verse is just 3 verses before Levi 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures. Bigots change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose! "If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Lev 20:18) What would happen if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period? Fundies decline the call to take this verse literally. "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."(Lev 25:44-45) Ever wonder where racists in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundies dont take literally. "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."(Lev 19:27) Fundies never preach against the evils of shaving. Maybe they would if they had a personal bias against shaving. "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you."(Lev 11:7) The book of Lev. also prohibits the eating of pork. Fundies do not use this verse to preach against eating pork. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not a desire to understand what the Bible actually says. ".do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."(Lev 19:19) Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. They often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundies also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundies are often wearing may be a cotton/poly blend, the most common in the USA. Stone them all! An "abomination?" Fundies also like to use Lev 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Lev 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination: "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Lev 11:10) "They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."(Lev 11:11) "Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you."(Lev 11:12) Anti-gay fundies selectively quote the Bible and embrace those parts that justify their own personal prejudice against gays.

In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.
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post #165 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post

Mary Magdalen is never referred to as a prostitute in the Bible, that is an ideal that came about in later biblical studies. She is only called an adulteress (at least if you take the Talmudic meaning of Magdalen).

Oh, I'm sorry. Adulteress is much, much better than prostitute. Thanks for that.


Quote:
The thief was commended by Christ for his faith, as was Mary. It has nothing to do with status & everything to do with repentance & humility. In the eyes of Christ when you turn from sin towards him you are no longer who you once were but a new creation.

Sure, but the point is, Jesus didn't shun anyone, regardless of whether they were a 'sinner' or not. So why so many so-called 'people of faith' do so today is very odd to me... they seem to not want to follow Christ's example, even though they are allegedly all about Christ.

Does anyone honestly picture Jesus, upon his return, walking around holding a "God hates gays" sign? If you do, then I feel really bad for ya.



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post #166 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by iHarry View Post

Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc.

You should read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were from ~80AD, if I remember correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iHarry View Post

In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.

No, God just hates sin, and sin can be found in all people. The question is: has your sin been paid for?
post #167 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Sure, but the point is, Jesus didn't shun anyone, regardless of whether they were a 'sinner' or not. So why so many so-called 'people of faith' do so today is very odd to me... they seem to not want to follow Christ's example, even though they are allegedly all about Christ.

Being like Christ is very difficult. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to strive for. You can complain about Christians missing the mark, but if you are not trying yourself, then you're just complaining from the sidelines. You try to be like Christ for a while and see how it goes for you.
post #168 of 426
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

You should read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were from ~80AD, if I remember correctly.

No, God just hates sin, and sin can be found in all people. The question is: has your sin been paid for?

The dead sea scrolls say nothing about homosexuality and were not written by god and it's not a sin because you think it is. By the way, are you planning to give up on eating shrimp?
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post #169 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by iHarry View Post


Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc. Quoting Leviticus may leave some to think you may be showing your ignorance in an attempt to hide a narrow minded and bigoted view of others. You see, Leviticus says a lot more than not lying down with other men which by the way has been interpreted to mean something about homosexuality with no proof that it actually does. If you ever actually read the bible you need to read all of Leviticus and you need to doggedly follow it as you do the part you like to quote. Here's what I mean:

Homophobic bigots often quote two verses that seem to be against gay people. They appear in the book of Leviticus, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev 18:22) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13) Look at other scripture verses in the same book (Lev.). This proves that those that are so enthusiastic about quoting the book of Lev. to affirm their prejudice against gays become awfully quiet when it comes to other verses in the very same book.

They choose the Bible as the tool to affirm and legitimize hate. The truth is that they just don't like gay people.

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. His blood shall be upon him." (Lev 20:9) Imagine what would happen if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. The above verse is just 3 verses before Levi 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures. Bigots change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose!

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Lev 20:18) What would happen if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period? Fundies decline the call to take this verse literally.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."(Lev 25:44-45) Ever wonder where racists in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundies don’t take literally.

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."(Lev 19:27) Fundies never preach against the evils of shaving. Maybe they would if they had a personal bias against shaving. "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you."(Lev 11:7) The book of Lev. also prohibits the eating of pork. Fundies do not use this verse to preach against eating pork. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not a desire to understand what the Bible actually says.

".do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."(Lev 19:19) Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. They often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundies also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundies are often wearing may be a cotton/poly blend, the most common in the USA. Stone them all!

An "abomination?" Fundies also like to use Lev 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Lev 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination: "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Lev 11:10) "They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."(Lev 11:11) "Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you."(Lev 11:12)

Anti-gay fundies selectively quote the Bible and embrace those parts that justify their own personal prejudice against gays.

In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.



Well said.





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post #170 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Being like Christ is very difficult. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to strive for. You can complain about Christians missing the mark, but if you are not trying yourself, then you're just complaining from the sidelines. You try to be like Christ for a while and see how it goes for you.


For a lapsed Catholic, I do pretty well, actually.

And if you're a Christian, and you argue for tolerance and "loving the sinner" but do absolutely nothing to promote it, then you are part of the problem.

What's the quote? "Faith without works is dead."


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post #171 of 426
[QUOTE=iHarry;1251494]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMiC View Post

I don't need to be careful of what i say. I can be as offensive as i want, it's my right!! Besides, the gay agenda offends me, so what about that? Right, me being offended of you matters not, but you being offended by me does




Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc. Quoting Leviticus may leave some to think you may be showing your ignorance in an attempt to hide a narrow minded and bigoted view of others. You see, Leviticus says a lot more than not lying down with other men which by the way has been interpreted to mean something about homosexuality with no proof that it actually does. If you ever actually read the bible you need to read all of Leviticus and you need to doggedly follow it as you do the part you like to quote. Here's what I mean:

Homophobic bigots often quote two verses that seem to be against gay people. They appear in the book of Leviticus, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev 18:22) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13) Look at other scripture verses in the same book (Lev.). This proves that those that are so enthusiastic about quoting the book of Lev. to affirm their prejudice against gays become awfully quiet when it comes to other verses in the very same book. They choose the Bible as the tool to affirm and legitimize hate. The truth is that they just don't like gay people. "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. His blood shall be upon him." (Lev 20:9) Imagine what would happen if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. The above verse is just 3 verses before Levi 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures. Bigots change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose! "If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Lev 20:18) What would happen if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period? Fundies decline the call to take this verse literally. "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."(Lev 25:44-45) Ever wonder where racists in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundies dont take literally. "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."(Lev 19:27) Fundies never preach against the evils of shaving. Maybe they would if they had a personal bias against shaving. "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you."(Lev 11:7) The book of Lev. also prohibits the eating of pork. Fundies do not use this verse to preach against eating pork. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not a desire to understand what the Bible actually says. ".do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."(Lev 19:19) Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. They often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundies also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundies are often wearing may be a cotton/poly blend, the most common in the USA. Stone them all! An "abomination?" Fundies also like to use Lev 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Lev 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination: "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Lev 11:10) "They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."(Lev 11:11) "Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you."(Lev 11:12) Anti-gay fundies selectively quote the Bible and embrace those parts that justify their own personal prejudice against gays.

In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.

The Levitical law was harsh because we can not live up to perfection, that is why we need grace. Sorry, but your argument is a terrible one, even though it is passionate. I respect where your coming from, though I do not agree with it. Don't let idiots like iHarry draw you into their game.

Since so many seem interested in this discussion I created a google group where we may hopefully move this discussion.

http://groups.google.com/group/theological-debate

Please feel free to join in if you like & free this forum from our endless ranting.
post #172 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

And if you're a Christian, and you argue for tolerance and "loving the sinner" but do absolutely nothing to promote it, then you are part of the problem.

What's the quote? "Faith without works is dead."

My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.

I love my brother as a brother and as a human being made in the image of God. However, I hate his sin and cannot condone it.
post #173 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by iHarry View Post

The dead sea scrolls say nothing about homosexuality and were not written by god and it's not a sin because you think it is. By the way, are you planning to give up on eating shrimp?

Why should I, if you're saying it was not written by God?

(actually, it was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit)

God's plan has unfolded through the 1500 or so years the bible came to be, from Moses and the Torah to New Testament. Some things that were forbidden for the Israelites (and notice they were a theocracy), like eating shellfish, were allowed later on. However, homosexuality is condemned throughtout the entire 1500-year bible.

Read "The Maker's Diet", though, which is written by a Messianic Jew who cured himself of Crohn's Disease as well as a number of other severe ailments by switching to a kosher diet. He gives a number of compelling arguments as to why the kosher rules are good for us physiologically.
post #174 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.

I love my brother as a brother and as a human being made in the image of God. However, I hate his sin and cannot condone it.


Oh, I'm well aware of what 'furriness' is. It's more amusing than anything else, though I doubt it has any real power to 'turn' anyone gay. Your brother was already gay, being a furry may have just made him more aware of it, that's all.

It's good that you still love your brother. Try to bear in mind, if you're not already, that his sexual preferences don't change who he is, or alter any of the good things about him.

Sex is but one aspect of a person. It's amazing how many ppl's view of a person change completely when they choose to view a person entirely through their sexuality (not that you do).


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post #175 of 426
[QUOTE][QUOTE=hezekiahb;1251506]
Quote:
Originally Posted by iHarry View Post


The Levitical law was harsh because we can not live up to perfection, that is why we need grace. Sorry, but your argument is a terrible one, even though it is passionate. I respect where your coming from, though I do not agree with it. Don't let idiots like iHarry draw you into their game.

Wow, I'm glad you had an argument. So Leviticus is all wrong. How convenient. But by your argument then, homosexuality is not really a sin is it. Which other parts of the bible are "harsh" so we don't waste any time on them? Since you are the expert, do we just follow the passages you chose to or should we wait for the list? You cannot take the bible literally when it suits you. if you take one passage literally you need to take them all literally. I'm an idiot because I point out how ridiculous this is and your a genius because you believe in someone there is not an iota of proof ever existed? Gimmie a break!
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post #176 of 426
[
Quote:
QUOTE=frugality;1251510]Why should I, if you're saying it was not written by God?

(actually, it was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit)

Or under the influence of to much wine
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post #177 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

However, homosexuality is condemned throughtout the entire 1500-year bible.


If you honestly believe that (and many do not), then there's a simple solution for you: DON'T BE GAY.

And leave the condemnation, if there is to be any, to God.


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post #178 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.

I've got a new signature!
post #179 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.

My partner (work) wrote an article about "Furries" in Vanity Fair a few years ago. Is this your brother?



Either way, it's becoming clear where your hang-ups are coming from...
post #180 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by iHarry View Post

But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination:

And then there are the 10 commandments and the whole Sabbath on Saturday deal.

Christians are doomed!

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #181 of 426
Quote:
My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.

I love my brother as a brother and as a human being made in the image of God. However, I hate his sin and cannot condone it.

Someone chooses homosexuality?

Damn! Where did I go wrong? I must have chosen that at the same time I chose to have a form of autism...

I am Christian, and won't act on my feelings with another guy, but I see both sides of the coin. I lived previously as both a Christian and an active homosexual.

I choose to be as objective as I can, and I can tell you one thing, if the person is really homosexual, they never chose it. They may or may not like it, but keep in mind its something they don't choose.

Perhaps you should spend some time getting to know what its like to grow up as a gay man, perhaps even going so far as one in the church. You will learn a lot about us very very quickly. The gay-bashings (though I act like a normal bloke) may be especially character building for you. The barbed-wire and razor wire cuts around your chest that may end up there for life, like they did for me, may be caused by "Christian young guys" who "know and love God." I had no reason to choose it. For those six hours of my life, I never wanted anything more than never to have endured homosexuality like I did.

Perhaps you could learn stuff from people who had to deal with it. Thats my point. You can't know from a family member or friend - you are shut out of their world, at least until they come out, and even then, often there is a lot you may not understand.
post #182 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

If you honestly believe that (and many do not), then there's a simple solution for you: DON'T BE GAY.

Don't be gay, Sparky!



Stupid gay dog!
post #183 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Don't be gay, Sparky!



Stupid gay dog!



LOL! Long time, no see, Wilco. I've been meaning to drop you an email.



.
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post #184 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

LOL! Long time, no see, Wilco. I've been meaning to drop you an email.



.

Shhhhh! If you act friendly towards me, people might not think I'm a dick. And I've spent years cultivating that image.
post #185 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Shhhhh! If you act friendly towards me, people might not think I'm a dick. And I've spent years cultivating that image.


Oh right, sorry. Let me fix it:







Good enough?



.
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post #186 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Oh, right, sorry. Let me fix it:







Good enough?



.

Now you're on the trolley!
post #187 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Someone chooses homosexuality?

Damn! Where did I go wrong? I must have chosen that at the same time I chose to have a form of autism...

I am Christian, and won't act on my feelings with another guy, but I see both sides of the coin. I lived previously as both a Christian and an active homosexual.

I choose to be as objective as I can, and I can tell you one thing, if the person is really homosexual, they never chose it. They may or may not like it, but keep in mind its something they don't choose.

Perhaps you should spend some time getting to know what its like to grow up as a gay man, perhaps even going so far as one in the church. You will learn a lot about us very very quickly. The gay-bashings (though I act like a normal bloke) may be especially character building for you. The barbed-wire and razor wire cuts around your chest that may end up there for life, like they did for me, may be caused by "Christian young guys" who "know and love God." I had no reason to choose it. For those six hours of my life, I never wanted anything more than never to have endured homosexuality like I did.

Perhaps you could learn stuff from people who had to deal with it. Thats my point. You can't know from a family member or friend - you are shut out of their world, at least until they come out, and even then, often there is a lot you may not understand.


Well said.


.
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post #188 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Perhaps you could learn stuff from people who had to deal with it. Thats my point. You can't know from a family member or friend - you are shut out of their world, at least until they come out, and even then, often there is a lot you may not understand.

I'm sorry for the hardships you have endured. We all have different urges....some good....some not so good. But God has told us that sex is for marriage only. As a single person, I have no more right to have sex that a homosexual does.
post #189 of 426
[QUOTE=iHarry;1251513][QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post


Wow, I'm glad you had an argument. So Leviticus is all wrong. How convenient. But by your argument then, homosexuality is not really a sin is it. Which other parts of the bible are "harsh" so we don't waste any time on them? Since you are the expert, do we just follow the passages you chose to or should we wait for the list? You cannot take the bible literally when it suits you. if you take one passage literally you need to take them all literally. I'm an idiot because I point out how ridiculous this is and your a genius because you believe in someone there is not an iota of proof ever existed? Gimmie a break!

Feel free to follow my link if you really want to keep discussing this. You completely mis-understood what I was saying, except for the part where I called you an idiot, which is obvious from your invigorated response. To call you an idiot isn't to imply I'm a genius, more likely I would call myself a fellow idiot as I have no wisdom to myself. I confess I wanted to ensure a response out of you so I could make this point.

It's just irritating when people get going on these rants, then people rant back, & no actual intelligent debate actually occurs. I've been far more than wordy on this forum so again I'm gonna step back & offer people to continue the discussion elsewhere.

http://groups.google.com/group/theological-debate
post #190 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

I'm sorry for the hardships you have endured. We all have different urges....some good....some not so good. But God has told us that sex is for marriage only. As a single person, I have no more right to have sex that a homosexual does.

Perhaps you missed the part where I agreed with you that i did not believe it was right. i just challenged your assumption that your brother chose it.

It will help you relate to your brother if you understand he never chose to be attracted that way.

I can understand why people see it as fine, and if I didn't believe it was not God's will, I would be back there in a heartbeat.

Broke up with a guy recently because I couldn't take the contradiction in my own heart between the two... that and my boyfriend kept worrying he would hurt the scars over my chest... he was a worry wort at times... an extremely handsome worry wart.
post #191 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Perhaps you missed the part where I agreed with you that i did not believe it was right. i just challenged your assumption that your brother chose it.

It will help you relate to your brother if you understand he never chose to be attracted that way.

I can understand why people see it as fine, and if I didn't believe it was not God's will, I would be back there in a heartbeat.

Broke up with a guy recently because I couldn't take the contradiction in my own heart between the two... that and my boyfriend kept worrying he would hurt the scars over my chest... he was a worry wort at times... an extremely handsome worry wart.

PG4G, you may find interrest in this site.

http://www.exodus-international.org/

Got to see them at a conference & it helped me understand a lot about a cousin who has gone through many of the same feelings. For her I think it was more that she wasn't sure at all what she wanted to be or do with her life & a liberal college convinced her that the obvious solution was homosexuality.
post #192 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Perhaps you missed the part where I agreed with you that i did not believe it was right. i just challenged your assumption that your brother chose it.

It will help you relate to your brother if you understand he never chose to be attracted that way.

I understand your position, however I'm not so sure you can say that he never chose to be attracted that way. He had a girlfriend, one who was a bit selfish it seemed, and it left some sore feelings at their break-up, shortly before he got involved in the furriness. I think the furriness was more of a 'fetish', and the homosexuality came from that, where it wasn't there before.

I do understand that some people have urges from an early age, and this is hard if not impossible to explain. However, there are some who definitely chose homosexuality, and my brother was one of those.

It's sort of the psychological discussion of 'nature vs. nurture'. Some seem to have had the urge early on (nature). Some seem to have cultivated it, or have been affected by events in life (nurture). There are a high percentage of homosexuals that have been sexually abused as children, enough so that it seems to be a cause in many cases. Sexually abused children are more likely to be homosexual later on. Also consider Tila Tequila, who has been in the internet news lately because she said she experimented with lesbianism before the age of 10. This has lead to some confusion in her.
post #193 of 426
I don't believe in religion; not saying I don't believe in A god.

and I'm an agnostic...

I was raised a presbyterian

I think there is no problem with homosexuals, but I do with religious fundamentalism.
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post #194 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post

For her I think it was more that she wasn't sure at all what she wanted to be or do with her life & a liberal college convinced her that the obvious solution was homosexuality.






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post #195 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by cactus_man View Post

Yeah, I can tell you don't like it or want to accept it. I mean, I'm not totally crazy about it myself, but why the whole "square peg in a round hole" thing? I'll repeat myself: bisexuality/homosexuality has been observed, by scientists, in HUNDREDS of species and counting. If that doesn't qualify as "natural," then I guess we're all about as artificially-made as the keyboards we're typing on. Animals don't have opinions. (Yeah, I know, technically we're animals too, but that's not my point.) So if they are gay, then it MUST be natural. Why would it suddenly be different for humans? Is it unnatural for us to do it simply because we DO have opinions?

As Carlos Mencia would put it, "DUH-DUH-DUH!"

These discussions really don't go anywhere, especially when neither side uses sound reasoning.

There are lots of things that occur in nature, and are therefore "natural." Down's Syndrome is a naturally occurring condition; doesn't make it evolutionarily advantageous for a species to produce offspring with it. The entire argument is just stupid. Is there a good biological reason for homosexuality to exist? Not really if the primary imperative of life is to produce more life. But why should anybody care? Let people do what they want to do; they aren't bothering anybody else.
post #196 of 426
I've got a date on Saturday thanks to this thread.

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post #197 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNly View Post

I don't believe in religion; not saying I don't believe in A god.

and I'm an agnostic...

I was raised a presbyterian

I think there is no problem with homosexuals, but I do with religious fundamentalism.

Realize that that's like saying, "I believe in physics, but I have a problem with Newton's Law." You can't be an anti-fundamentalist Physicist. The fundamentals are just that...fundamental. They are core to the very belief.

If there is a truth, it is fundamental. You're saying, "I want God, but I don't want any specifics." You want a fuzzy religion with no Truth.

God is a fundamentalist, by the way.
post #198 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Either way, it's called....faith.

No. There's a massive gulf between believing stuff based on rational argument, logic and evidence. And believing stuff despite logic and evidence.

Science is based on doubt and caution. You propose a theory and then others try to disprove it. One successful disproof and the theory is abandoned.

Faith is the exact opposite. The stronger your faith, the less evidence you need.

Which is why faith leads to so much evil.
Doubtful people act cautiously. They question everything. They have to think hard to decide what the right course of action is. It's hard work!

People of faith have no doubts. They can commit horrible acts, because they "know" they are right. Real evil thrives on faith. As suicide bombers can amply demonstrate.

C.
post #199 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Realize that that's like saying, "I believe in physics, but I have a problem with Newton's Law." You can't be an anti-fundamentalist Physicist. The fundamentals are just that...fundamental. They are core to the very belief.

If there is a truth, it is fundamental. You're saying, "I want God, but I don't want any specifics." You want a fuzzy religion with no Truth.

God is a fundamentalist, by the way.

you obviously have no idea what religious fundamentalism is, or have a very closed mind about what a religion can be.
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post #200 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

No. There's a massive gulf between believing stuff based on rational argument, logic and evidence. And believing stuff despite logic and evidence.

Science is based on doubt and caution. You propose a theory and then others try to disprove it. One successful disproof and the theory is abandoned.

Scientists have no evidence at all that one species has evolved into another species. Only that there are different species in the fossil record.

Scientists have no evidence at all that life could come together out of a primordial soup all by itself. In fact, statistical analysis shows that in the 4 billion years that the earth has been around, not one single protein could have come together by accident, much less a single cell, much less an organism, much less complex organisms evolving from one to another.

It is only by faith that such things are believed, and this is no more 'rational', if you will, than the theory that God created everything.
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