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post #281 of 426
5/15/08 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

On that note, talked to my ex's dad this morning (he's a retired pastor), there is ZERO mention of lesbians in the bible. All references to "gay is a sin" are Man/Man only, and pretty much confined to the hyperstrict rules of Leviticus.

False. Romans 1:

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
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post #282 of 426
5/15/08 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post


God did not invent any of that. He intended our universe to be perfect, but our sin has caused a downward spiral of all creation.

So you are suggesting that the parasites which burrow their way into children's eyes making them blind were not the product of Intelligent Design. Did they evolve? Or is all the Sin slopping around in the world some sort of Mutagen. Turning innocent eye-worms into evil-eye-worms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post


Here you are much closer to the mark. Jesus "for the joy set before him, endured the cross." He saw beyond death and saw his suffering as worth enduring because he loved us and didn't want to lose us.

Jesus denied himself many things in this life because he was looking toward the end result in heaven, when he would be reinstated fully as God the Son, having paid the ransom for all of us to be with him in heaven.

Sometimes you give up something you want here and now for something better later.

He either died or he didn't.
If he died *that* would be a sacrifice.
If he didn't then where is the sacrifice? Why was it such a big deal? Being nailed to a tree is the sort of thing some people do for fun.

You can't have it both ways. Whoever wrote this Bible was a lousy screenwriter. The character of God is totally different in the second half.

C.
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post #283 of 426
5/15/08 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

False. Romans 1:

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

See, but that's just god being a dick again.


And define "unnatural" because homosexuality happens in nature all the time....


Wait.... does that mean gay animals go to hell too??
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post #284 of 426
5/15/08 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

So you are suggesting that the parasites which burrow their way into children's eyes making them blind were not the product of Intelligent Design. Did they evolve? Or is all the Sin slopping around in the world some sort of Mutagen. Turning innocent eye-worms into evil-eye-worms.

Those kinds of creatures would exist, but be benign. As the bible says with regard to heaven and the new earth, "the lion will lay down with the lamb."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

He either died or he didn't.
If he died *that* would be a sacrifice.
If he didn't then where is the sacrifice? Why was it such a big deal? Being nailed to a tree is the sort of thing some people do for fun.

The cross was one of the most excruciating forms of death known at the time. A good Roman crucifixion squad could keep a person alive on the cross for 3 days, while they pushed themselves up and down on the nails in their feet to draw each breath of air. Jesus also endured a flesh-removing scourging before that. Look up how the Romans did scourging sometime. The Passion of the Christ movie showed it well.

But that was nothing compared to the payment after he died. He spent an eternity in hell for each person who would be in heaven. He did it for me, and he did it for you if you accept it. They physical pain and death was just a shadow of the pain of separation from God that each one of us derserved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

You can't have it both ways. Whoever wrote this Bible was a lousy screenwriter. The character of God is totally different in the second half.

God shows his love much more in the second half, but it is definitely there in the first half. We even get a preview of Christ in Genesis, if you remember when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, the son that he promised him and which was born miraculously to him in his old age. Abraham was just about to sacrifice his son when God stopped him and said, "now I know that you trust me because you would have killed your son for me." It was a picture of what God was going to do later when he sacrificed his own son for real.
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post #285 of 426
5/15/08 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

And define "unnatural" because homosexuality happens in nature all the time....

You're arguing that, essentially, "because it happens in nature, it's natural."

Pedophile have urges to have sex with children. Is this 'natural'? If it is, then why do we say it's bad?
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post #286 of 426
5/15/08 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Daddy, why do bad men get away with doing terrible things?

Here is a question for you: When bad things happen, why do you expect that things should be different?

The Muslim believes that when bad things happen, "it was Allah's will."

The Hindu believes that when bad things happen, "it was karma." There's no reason anything should be different.

The Buddhist believes that everying just 'is as it is' (Buddhism is essentially atheistic), and that our job is just to escape the physical reality and its evils.

Many indigenous beliefs just attribute it to bad spirits.

The Judeo-Christian worldview says that things were supposed to be right and good, but that the choice of God's creatures (including angels) to rebel against God's goodness is the ultimate cause.

So: If you think bad things shouldn't happen, are you asking this because you beliefs are rooted in the Judeo-Christian framework?
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post #287 of 426
5/15/08 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

You're arguing that, essentially, "because it happens in nature, it's natural."

Pedophile have urges to have sex with children. Is this 'natural'? If it is, then why do we say it's bad?

"natural" or "normal?" I would think those are two independent states.
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post #288 of 426
5/15/08 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertwin View Post

I totally agree that there are gradients of sexuality.

But my point continues to be that those don't change over time. If you greatly prefer men over women (or vice versa), that basic preference is not going to change over the course of your life.

No, I think you are wrong. The only people who would never change are the ones who are at the extremes. Preferences are not set in stone and exist on a sliding scale; although I'm sure we would agree, the closer you are to one of the poles, the less likely you are to change significantly towards the other.
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post #289 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

God shows his love much more in the second half, but it is definitely there in the first half.

Or more realistically the writers of the second half, decided that that first season had not been a big success. The ratings were down. And decided to pitch the God character in a more positive light.

Making him less smitey and more lovey gave them a USP when they broke away from the Six Pointed Star network.

C.
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post #290 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidm77 View Post

No, I think you are wrong. The only people who would never change are the ones who are at the extremes. Preferences are not set in stone and exist on a sliding scale; although I'm sure we would agree, the closer you are to one of the poles, the less likely you are to change significantly towards the other.


Am I closer to one of the extremes then? Much closer?

I must be.

The razor wire with its quarter inch deep cuts into my chest, and the rusty barbed wire driving a centimeters into my abdomen, the weight of 4 teenagers pulling them tight as they wrapped them around my body and left me tied to a post near a farm in the outback almost naked on a freezing cold night when i almost died of hypothermia....

that wasn't enough to change me...

I'd like to see how easy it is to change others... must have taken a lot or they were further along the gradient...
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post #291 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Or more realistically the writers of the second half, decided that that first season had not been a big success. The ratings were down. And decided to pitch the God character in a more positive light.

Try reading the bible and asking yourself the question, "How could mere men come up with this?" Dozens of writers wrote the bible, yet God's character is unchanging throughout the whole 1500 years. The heaviest criticisms are levelled against the Jewish leaders! Often the argument against religion (or Christianity specifically) is that it's a power grab by the elite to subdue the masses. But if that's the case, why is the greatest criticism against the leaders, the 'shepherds of My flock'? If you can really divorce yourself from pre-concieved notions, I think you would see God himself in the text. Man could not have come up with it. Early writers fortold of things they had only had visions or impressions of, and those things later became fulfilled in Christ. The Dead Sea scrolls show that the bible of Jesus' time was already in place before he arrived. No one re-wrote the books to put the prophecies in there after the fact. The idea that God himself would pay the price for our sin is an idea completely foreign to man. Most cultures require the individual pay back for wrongdoings. God will take the pain himself for us. That's the reason that the bible has always been the best-selling book in the world, far above and beyond whatever book is #2 on the list.
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post #292 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidm77 View Post

No, I think you are wrong. The only people who would never change are the ones who are at the extremes. Preferences are not set in stone and exist on a sliding scale; although I'm sure we would agree, the closer you are to one of the poles, the less likely you are to change significantly towards the other.

Let's use an example. We'll call him Joe.

Joe prefers men over women, 66% to 33%. That means, all else being equal, he will usually pick a man over a woman.

Does that mean that if he picks a woman to date, he's no longer 66/33? No. It just means that woman was one of the 33% that he likes.

He did not change his sexuality at all.

Over time, he will pick more men than women, because he generally likes men better. It doesn't mean he will never pick a woman, and it doesn't mean he might not end up married to one.

His sexuality has not changed just because his current flame is a woman.
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post #293 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Here is a question for you: When bad things happen, why do you expect that things should be different?

So: If you think bad things shouldn't happen, are you asking this because you beliefs are rooted in the Judeo-Christian framework?

No!

What an unbelievably arrogant and insulting suggestion!

If someone takes my food, or harms my children, I don't need ancient Jewish myths to understand the injustice.

Where does right and wrong come from? Where does our inate sense of justice derive from?

It comes from compassion. It comes from seeing the other guy's point of view. It comes from being mindful that our actions have consequences. And we need enough brains to predict what those consequences are. This is what it means to be ethical.

That thinking-through-our-actions means that we need intelligence and judgement. What is right in one moment, might be wrong in the next. We can never be certain. We are always doubtful and cautious.

But Theists prefer their morality ready-rolled. For them it does not come from the head. It comes from a book of childish myths and cryptic stories. Things are fundamentally wrong or fundamentally right. And the book tells them to never ever doubt the truth of it.

This is why they act with certainty. Free from doubt. Which is why they are so very dangerous - and can do terrible harm without a second thought.

C.
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post #294 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Where does our inate sense of justice derive from?

If you were Hindu, you would believe in the caste system, that some people are born better than others. You have every right to look down on the lower castes and to ignore their pain. They are lesser humans. You don't need compassion for those worthless people.

Judeo-Christianity is the faith that has given mankind its greatest sense of the equality of ALL human beings. Why did it take Mother Theresa of Calcutta to take care of the poor in the slums? Because she saw every human being as equally worthy, as a child of God. Their fellow Hindus did not. What she did was absolutely mind-boggling to the Hindus.

I'm just saying that you, being from the U.K., have developed a sense of right and wrong that is rooted in the Judeo-Christian truth, even if you yourself don't believe in the faith as a whole. The fact that you seek a certain kind of justice is evidence that the Judeo-Christian faith has had an effect on you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

It comes from compassion. It comes from seeing the other guy's point of view. It comes from being mindful that our actions have consequences. And we need enough brains to predict what those consequences are. This is what it means to be ethical.

What is right in one moment, might be wrong in the next. We can never be certain. We are always doubtful and cautious.

But Theists prefer their morality ready-rolled.

That's funny....you give a definition of 'what's ethical' then say you don't want your morality ready-rolled (though you just defined a ready-rolled morality based on what you determine is ethical), then say 'we can never be certain of what's ethical'. That's rather wishy-washy, isn't it?
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post #295 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

No!

What an unbelievably arrogant and insulting suggestion!

If someone takes my food, or harms my children, I don't need ancient Jewish myths to understand the injustice.

Where does right and wrong come from? Where does our inate sense of justice derive from?

It comes from compassion. It comes from seeing the other guy's point of view. It comes from being mindful that our actions have consequences. And we need enough brains to predict what those consequences are. This is what it means to be ethical.

That thinking-through-our-actions means that we need intelligence and judgement. What is right in one moment, might be wrong in the next. We can never be certain. We are always doubtful and cautious.

But Theists prefer their morality ready-rolled. For them it does not come from the head. It comes from a book of childish myths and cryptic stories. Things are fundamentally wrong or fundamentally right. And the book tells them to never ever doubt the truth of it.

This is why they act with certainty. Free from doubt. Which is why they are so very dangerous - and can do terrible harm without a second thought.

C.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I've never understood why "religious" people say that I have no ethics or morality just because I don't believe in their version of God.
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post #296 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:50am
What makes those myths especially "childish" and what makes other beliefs less so?

I understand where your viewpoint comes from, and i used to agree with you.

Many are so reliant upon their beliefs that if they didn't have it ready rolled in front of them, they would fall apart. It is their strength, having that there. That could be a good thing, or in another circumstance, a massive limitation.

I personally am not limited to my belief system, but I agree with Christ's message as to me it seems accurate and probable. My ethics therefore are based not upon subjective cultural morality as defined in a good university study of philosophy (like mine ) but something which I expect to be a form of absolute morality.

Free from doubt? I am anything but. Critical thinking is my strong point.

But I do act decisively. Not with certainty, so much, but decisively. Unlike others, I choose not to condemn others. Not at all. I am the last person who has a right to do that. But I will act out of love, even if it hurts me greatly, with decisiveness because in my view it is most probable that the view I see as right is right, and therefore I must act on what has highest probability of being correct.
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post #297 of 426
5/15/08 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertwin View Post

Let's use an example. We'll call him Joe.

Joe prefers men over women, 66% to 33%. That means, all else being equal, he will usually pick a man over a woman.

Does that mean that if he picks a woman to date, he's no longer 66/33? No. It just means that woman was one of the 33% that he likes.

He did not change his sexuality at all.

Over time, he will pick more men than women, because he generally likes men better. It doesn't mean he will never pick a woman, and it doesn't mean he might not end up married to one.

His sexuality has not changed just because his current flame is a woman.

Not really sure what your hypothetical proves. You are trying to quantify some absolute, unmoving ratio of preference for one thing over another; which is overly simplistic and unreasonable imo. I content that people near the point of indifference between two states will find their preference more likely to shift than somebody who is closer to one of the poles. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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post #298 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertwin View Post

I've never understood why "religious" people say that I have no ethics or morality just because I don't believe in their version of God.

God put morality in your heart so that you would seek him.

Non-religious folks have no way of describing why ethics and morality exist in mankind (since they do not exist in animals). If we each make our own morality, then there is no reason that anyone should rail against any religious person. Each morality is perfectly valid, and no one has anything to complain about, even bible-thumping. It shouldn't bother you one bit.

But if there is a moral law, there must have been a moral law giver.
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post #299 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Try reading the bible and asking yourself the question, "How could mere men come up with this?" Dozens of writers wrote the bible, yet God's character is unchanging throughout the whole 1500 years. The heaviest criticisms are levelled against the Jewish leaders! Often the argument against religion (or Christianity specifically) is that it's a power grab by the elite to subdue the masses. But if that's the case, why is the greatest criticism against the leaders, the 'shepherds of My flock'? If you can really divorce yourself from pre-concieved notions, I think you would see God himself in the text. Man could not have come up with it. Early writers fortold of things they had only had visions or impressions of, and those things later became fulfilled in Christ. The Dead Sea scrolls show that the bible of Jesus' time was already in place before he arrived. No one re-wrote the books to put the prophecies in there after the fact. The idea that God himself would pay the price for our sin is an idea completely foreign to man. Most cultures require the individual pay back for wrongdoings. God will take the pain himself for us. That's the reason that the bible has always been the best-selling book in the world, far above and beyond whatever book is #2 on the list.

Oy, vey! Hey, L. Ron Hubbard wrote a ton of literature in his short lifespan, how do you know that he won't be the bedrock of belief for the next thousand years or so? Or perhaps it's the time for Mormonism. The point is, your beliefs today, colored by centuries of revision and your perceptions that have been shaped by our culture are certainly vastly different from the thoughts and the societal influences from whence these beliefs sprang. The stories, facts, beliefs and opinions set forth in this bible from which you can pick and choose a framework of reality (freeing the individual from critical thought) are rife with contradictions. But that is also the beauty of faith, isn't it? This illogical collection can only resolve itself through belief, it can never be resolved through reason.

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post #300 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidm77 View Post

Not really sure what your hypothetical proves. You are trying to quantify some absolute, unmoving ratio of preference for one thing over another; which is overly simplistic and unreasonable imo. I content that people near the point of indifference between two states will find their preference more likely to shift than somebody who is closer to one of the poles. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

It was an example. The numbers are irrelevant.

The point simply being that if you prefer men, you prefer men. It doesn't change over time. Again, "preferring men" does not mean you don't ever date women or won't end up marrying one. It just means you prefer them, on average.

Again, that preference doesn't change over time. If it does "change", it's because of societal or family or religious pressures.
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post #301 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:06pm
California. Home to Apple and sensible judges. There's hope for you Yanks yet.
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post #302 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:09pm
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Originally Posted by jonnyb View Post

California. Home to Apple and sensible judges. There's hope for you Yanks yet.

Forget about our high taxation, gridlocked traffic, occasional earthquakes and one too many Democrats.

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post #303 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:14pm
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Originally Posted by jonnyb View Post

California. Home to Apple and sensible judges. There's hope for you Yanks yet.

And Arnohld- the steroid cream of the crop!
And let's not forget that other bad actor Ronald Reagan who never mentioned the words AIDS the whole time he was president.
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post #304 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

That's the reason that the bible has always been the best-selling book in the world, far above and beyond whatever book is #2 on the list.

Actually, globally, the best selling single book of all time is Quotations of Chairman Mao Zhedong at 6.5 BILLION copies, and it was published in 1966. (Yes, I own a copy)

#2 is the Bible (granted, I believe that the varying versions should be counted seperately, as they have different flavors) at around 5 billion copies sold (no timeline of sales given).


the Qur'an has only sold 200 million copies (tying with A Tale of Two Cities)

Lastly, in the past 10 years, Harry Potter has outsold the bible.



Plus yes...dumbass... if it occurs in nature... IT IS BY DEFINITION NATURAL!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webster Miriam Dictionary

natural |ˈna ch ərəl|
adjective
1 existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind : carrots contain a natural antiseptic that fights bacteria | natural disasters such as earthquakes.
• (of fabric) having a color characteristic of the unbleached and undyed state; off-white.
2 of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something : sharks have no natural enemies.
• [ attrib. ] (of a person) born with a particular skill, quality, or ability : he was a natural entertainer.
• (of a skill, quality, or ability) coming instinctively to a person; innate : writing appears to demand muscular movements that are not natural to children.
See note at normal .
• (of a person or their behavior) relaxed and unaffected; spontaneous : he replied with too much nonchalance to sound natural.
• occurring as a matter of course and without debate; inevitable : Ken was a natural choice for coach.
• [ attrib. ] (of law or justice) based on innate moral sense; instinctively felt to be right and fair. See also natural law .
• Bridge (of a bid) straightforwardly reflecting one's holding of cards. Often contrasted with conventional or artificial .
3 [ attrib. ] (of a parent or child) related by blood : such adopted children always knew who their natural parents were.
• chiefly archaic illegitimate : the Baron left a natural son by his mistress.
4 Music (of a note) not sharped or flatted : [ postpositive, in combination ] the bassoon plays G-natural instead of A-flat.
• (of a brass instrument) having no valves and able to play only the notes of the harmonic series above a fundamental note.
• of or relating to the notes and intervals of the harmonic series.
5 Christian Theology relating to earthly or unredeemed human or physical nature as distinct from the spiritual or supernatural realm.

Secondly, you have a very unhealthy obsession with pedophilia, but let me point out that it's only been the past 50-60 years in which sex with a minor has actually been criminal. My great grandparents are from Scotland, great grampa was 19 and great gramma was 14 when they married in 1925 (and by the way, they were married here in the US). In fact, several Christian, Islamic, and Hindu sects, girls are wed to older men soon after their first menstruation. Granted, I've never been interested in younger chicks, as I have a +/-5 year rule, because anything beyond that you get into pop cultural differences. I want to date a girl that won't blank out when I go on about loving Jem & the Holograms as a kid.

As to going to hell, if it means I don't have to deal with naive little shits like you, then so be it. (And I'm guessing the devil's a hot chick like Betty Page)
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post #305 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

God put morality in your heart so that you would seek him.

Non-religious folks have no way of describing why ethics and morality exist in mankind (since they do not exist in animals). If we each make our own morality, then there is no reason that anyone should rail against any religious person. Each morality is perfectly valid, and no one has anything to complain about, even bible-thumping. It shouldn't bother you one bit.

But if there is a moral law, there must have been a moral law giver.

Again unbelievable arrogance!

Read Dawkin's The Selfish Gene - which explains perfectly the biological origins of altruism and compassion. Tribes who look out for each other, out-perform those filled with the purely selfish. It's that simple.

Morality has biological origins, but there is no Absolute Moral Law, Right and Wrong depend on context. Which is why human morality varies from moment to moment and from place to place.

If morality was zapped into us by your Sky Fairy, would it not be universal? Or are you saying that your God only provides a moral sense to Christians and Jews and Muslims. And Hindus get theirs from Ganesh and co?


C.
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post #306 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:55pm
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Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Again unbelievable arrogance!

Read Dawkin's The Selfish Gene - which explains perfectly the biological origins of altruism and compassion. Tribes who look out for each other, out-perform those filled with the purely selfish. It's that simple.

Morality has biological origins, but there is no Absolute Moral Law, Right and Wrong depend on context. Which is why human morality varies from moment to moment and from place to place.

If morality was zapped into us by your Sky Fairy, would it not be universal? Or are you saying that your God only provides a moral sense to Christians and Jews and Muslims. And Hindus get theirs from Ganesh and co?


C.

Y'know what, how is it if I claim as an adult to believe in Santa, Fae or Alien contact I'm a nut job, but if I believe in someone's invisible grandpa in a bathrobe I'm pious?


If you get messages from dog you're put in a cell, if you get messages from God you get to tell people how to live their lives.
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post #307 of 426
5/15/08 at 12:57pm
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Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

And I'm guessing the devil's a hot chick like Betty Page

You're making it sound more and more attractive. "Oh, hello Betty... OUCH!"

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post #308 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:00pm
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Originally Posted by jonnyb View Post

California. Home to Apple and sensible judges. There's hope for you Yanks yet.

I assume you're talking about today's California Supreme Court ruling.
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post #309 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:02pm
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Originally Posted by bikertwin View Post

I assume you're talking about today's California Supreme Court ruling.

One cannot believe in our Constitution and expect anything less. I'm in favor of equal rights and equal treatment. This should be legal everywhere, but mostly it should be up to each state and not a decision of the federal government.

I expect that eventually our nation's idiotic, costly drug laws will fall also. It can't happen soon enough, what with the outrageous cost to taxpayers and the damaging effects on our society.

Anything to improve the standing of personal freedoms and rationality in the US.

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post #310 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:04pm
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Originally Posted by bikertwin View Post

I assume you're talking about today's California Supreme Court ruling.

Yes, indeed. Well done Californigay!
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post #311 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:22pm
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Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Again unbelievable arrogance!

Morality has biological origins, but there is no Absolute Moral Law, Right and Wrong depend on context. Which is why human morality varies from moment to moment and from place to place.

You seem to be saying that I'm arrogant and this is wrong.

Then you say there's no absolute moral law, no absolute right and wrong.

By what standard are you judging arrogance to be wrong? You have nothing to stand on.
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post #312 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

Plus yes...dumbass... if it occurs in nature... IT IS BY DEFINITION NATURAL!!

By your definition, then rape, murder, torture, abuse, hanging, lynching....it's all natural.
So why do people get so bothered when such natural things happen?
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post #313 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

By your definition, then rape, murder, torture, abuse, hanging, lynching....it's all natural.
So why do people get so bothered when such natural things happen?

This is always the defense of folks such as yourself. You believe that without a Christian God, society is immediately thrown into chaos. Why does this not happen in China or India? Because of the social contract and because of the 'natural' law of enlightened self-interest.

It's frightening for people to realize that they really are alone in the universe, but there you are.

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post #314 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

This is always the defense of folks such as yourself. You believe that without a Christian God, society is immediately thrown into chaos. Why does this not happen in China or India? Because of the social contract and because of the 'natural' law of enlightened self-interest.

It's frightening for people to realize that they really are alone in the universe, but there you are.

I'm saying that there is a sense of morality in us, and that there is a Truth that explains it. When God tells us he made us in his image, it's a spiritual image, something animals don't have. We are all aware of this to a degree, but there is only one faith that reveals the truth of it. Our image is corrupted, which is why there is evil and sin, and there is only one plan for salvation. That plan is open to everyone, including those in China or India. Free for the taking, from a loving God.
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post #315 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

By your definition, then rape, murder, torture, abuse, hanging, lynching....it's all natural.
So why do people get so bothered when such natural things happen?

wait....



what??


I'm comparing the love between two people, and you're talking about human brutality...


Your priorities are so out of whack. Plus, aside from humans, name me animals that rape, murder, torture, or (my fave) lynch.
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post #316 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

wait....



what??


I'm comparing the love between two people, and you're talking about human brutality...


Your priorities are so out of whack. Plus, aside from humans, name me animals that rape, murder, torture, or (my fave) lynch.

I know why fundamentalists resort to this line of defense, I used to be a "believer". It's only after you get outside of your comfort zone and meet and understand the points of view of others that you question your religion. As for the fundamentalists, when people in church I used to attend started to pray on their wallets, that was the last straw for me.

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post #317 of 426
5/15/08 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

wait....
what??
I'm comparing the love between two people, and you're talking about human brutality...
Your priorities are so out of whack. Plus, aside from humans, name me animals that rape, murder, torture, or (my fave) lynch.

The argument was that if it's natural, it is O.K. 'Natural' means what happens in nature. Since everything happens in nature, everything must be O.K.
(it's not true, but that was basically the logic proposed)

Now, if you think that humans are not to be classified as 'nature', we have to discuss what is not natural about us. In that case, the supernatural does exist.
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post #318 of 426
5/15/08 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

We were discussing the definition of 'natural'. I'm sorry you missed the point.

I'm sorry you missed the definition of "Natural".


I'm done, this used to be fun, but I have a girlfriend that loves me and would like my attention, and I'm slowly getting behind on my comic and the deadline is looming.

You have my sympathies, I hope you find someone who loves you.
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post #319 of 426
5/15/08 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

I'm sorry you missed the definition of "Natural".


I'm done, this used to be fun, but I have a girlfriend that loves me and would like my attention, and I'm slowly getting behind on my comic and the deadline is looming.

You have my sympathies, I hope you find someone who loves you.

What comic? See, I know where my priorities are...

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post #320 of 426
5/15/08 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

You seem to be saying that I'm arrogant and this is wrong.

Then you say there's no absolute moral law, no absolute right and wrong.

By what standard are you judging arrogance to be wrong? You have nothing to stand on.

I'll explain what I think right and wrong are.
An action is wrong, when it's consequences lead to more harm than good. That's pretty much it.

Of course we don't really know the consequences when we act. Which is why it helps to be smart.
And our evaluation of harm and benefit is personal and subjective.
And like I said already, context is everything. Technology and culture are changing so we need to take that stuff into account.

So there is no Absolute Morality.
There's something much better. Instead individuals endeavor to follow a personal morality. They act with compassion and conscience.

If morality were God given it would be universal. AND it would be unchanging.
But it isn't. You lot can't even agree amongst yourselves.
We see religious organizations flip flopping about. One minute Slavery is OK, nowadays you can't say the N word. Genocide was all the craze back in the day. Now it's practically taboo.

C.
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