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China

post #1 of 30
5/14/08 at 4:52am
Thread Starter 
Interesting that there were many posts here about Tibet but none now about the earthquake in China.
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post #2 of 30
5/14/08 at 6:07am
Was just wondering the same thing.

Over 14,000 killed... and likely many more. CNN is now reporting that China says 26,000 are still buried.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the infrastructure was literally completely destroyed in many places. This will be a long and painful recovery.

Read somewhere that the ancient Chinese believed natural disasters to be the result of bad governing, so maybe this will lead to some changes in the country.

 

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post #3 of 30
5/14/08 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Read somewhere that the ancient Chinese believed natural disasters to be the result of bad governing, so maybe this will lead to some changes in the country.

Yes, I would expect some local building officials to get a 9mm pink slip from the school collapses.

Overall though, despite the fact I hate communism, the CCP is currently doing a reasonable job at governance given the size of the country and population. The disaster response is...ah...probably more organized that the US post-Katrina efforts.

Of course, some folks may not think too highly of US governing at the moment.
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post #4 of 30
5/14/08 at 8:11am
Katrina was a complete and utter disaster, absolutely inexcusable, but very few got pink slips. God bless America, the greatest nation on earth.(TM)

With the Olympics coming up and China very much in the eyes of the world, I wonder how much of this effort is being driven by a need to improve their image, fast. Something wants to believe that it is a true response...

 

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post #5 of 30
5/14/08 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Katrina was a complete and utter disaster, absolutely inexcusable, but very few got pink slips. God bless America, the greatest nation on earth.(TM)

Be careful about the broad brush here. A more correct statement would be something like:

"The government's response Katrina was a complete and utter disaster, absolutely inexcusable, but very few got pink slips. God bless the federal and state governments of America, the greatest governments on earth.(TM)"

Despite this gross failure, people still put much of their faith in the government to protect us and solve all of our important problems.

The private response (private corporations, individuals, churches and other non-profit groups) was actually very good.
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post #6 of 30
5/14/08 at 9:19am
I thought it was rather clearly suggested that I meant the response by the government.

Sorry if it was unclear.

 

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post #7 of 30
5/14/08 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I thought it was rather clearly suggested that I meant the response by the government.

Sorry if it was unclear.

Arguably I'm being a tad pedantic. However, many people often incorrectly conflate the nation, the people, the society of "America" with its government (and its actions and failures). This is why someone like Ron Paul gets into trouble ("He's blaming Americans for the terrorist attacks!") when he says that "we" caused something like 9/11. He's not speaking of America, or the American people (most of them anyway) or the American society or even the values and beliefs of most Americans but, rather, the actions of its government (particularly federal in that case). But I think most sensible and intelligent people will agree that the American people only ostensibly and superficially control the governments of this country (particularly the federal government).
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post #8 of 30
5/14/08 at 9:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

With the Olympics coming up and China very much in the eyes of the world, I wonder how much of this effort is being driven by a need to improve their image, fast. Something wants to believe that it is a true response...

Well, the cynical might note that TV images of Chinese troops is now that of rescuers and not stormtroopers. Externally, it certainly doesn't hurt but you can't stage this kind of response if you aren't prepared for it.

They lost a huge number of people in 1976 and they regularly have disasters. Their disaster response infrastructure is reputed to be very good.

The current response in comparison to 30 years ago should certainly bolster the internal image of progress and proseperity after the Cultural Revolution. Half the time I get the impression that folks don't understand that internal propaganda and impressions are often far more important to the CCP than external ones.
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post #9 of 30
5/14/08 at 9:53am
Very true.

Have you noticed the Chinese media's response? They are all over it. On Japanese TV here we et quite a bit of the video and the reporters are pretty intense with their questions.

Something is changing in the Middle Kingdom.

 

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You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #10 of 30
5/14/08 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Very true.

Have you noticed the Chinese media's response? They are all over it. On Japanese TV here we et quite a bit of the video and the reporters are pretty intense with their questions.

Something is changing in the Middle Kingdom.

All for the better. Once their government gets over their fear of completely losing control, China will be a more amazing place. It may even be possible that ideas such as self-governance could catch on.

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post #11 of 30
5/14/08 at 10:48am
Won't somebody think of the goldfish?
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post #12 of 30
5/14/08 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Won't somebody think of the goldfish?

Saw that. Nothing happens until the last 10 seconds.

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post #13 of 30
5/14/08 at 11:50am
How about the 100,000+ who perished in Tropical Cyclone Nargis in Burma/Myanmar? Looks like the Burmese military Junta have taken a page or 3 out of the Department of Homeland Security's disaster "response" handbook.
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post #14 of 30
5/14/08 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

How about the 100,000+ who perished in Tropical Cyclone Nargis in Burma/Myanmar? Looks like the Burmese military Junta have taken a page or 3 out of the Department of Homeland Security's disaster "response" handbook.

And amplified it to 100. This military junta douchebag Senior Gen. Than Shwe had the gall to vote for his forced constitution Saturday and make it into a photo op.

Quote:
The junta refused to budge. It stuck to its original plan to conduct the referendum on the chosen date after announcing that the people in the affected areas will be able to vote on a new date, May 24.

Such a move confirmed a view gaining ground among angry Burmese within the country that the junta is more interested in enforcing the approval of the country’s third constitution at the expense of helping the victims of Cyclone Nargis.

A source with close connections to highly-placed officials within the regime revealed to IPS that such a view is grounded in reality. The country’s strong man, Senior Gen. Than Shwe, had taken a decision ‘’not to use many troops and financial resources to help the people, since he wanted to use many of them for the referendum,’’ he said.

There are other leaders as pathological as Bush. Worse even. This is one of them.

As far as China is concerned - heart goes out to victims - seems that relief and rescue efforts going well - doesn't change my overall opinion of them though either.
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post #15 of 30
5/14/08 at 3:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

As far as China is concerned - heart goes out to victims - seems that relief and rescue efforts going well - doesn't change my overall opinion of them though either.

I've given my opinion of the CPC (mostly negative) however it is unlikely that any of the (east) asian democracies would be able to handle the complexities of governing China as well as the CPC has done. Post Cultural Revolution/Mao anyway. Before that almost anything would have been better.

Perhaps I am mistaken in that impression...given that India is as complex and is a working democracy and is a (south) asian country. However, I have doubts that China can effectively evolve into an India-like pluralistic democracy given the cultural differences.

One thing for sure, I don't believe that democracy under the KMT would have been able to manage China as a whole as well as they did Taiwan by itself (and it's not exacltly a model of govermental efficiency). It was also a dictatorship with democratic trappings until recently.

Some Chinese that I know feel that communism, like past dynasties, is a passing phase in a very long Chinese history. 60 years is very little and the country has changed quite a bit in the last decade or so.
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post #16 of 30
5/14/08 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sslarson View Post

"The government's response Katrina was a complete and utter disaster, absolutely inexcusable, but very few got pink slips. God bless the federal and state governments of America, the greatest governments on earth.(TM)"

Despite this gross failure, people still put much of their faith in the government to protect us and solve all of our important problems.

I have no sympathy for the folks who decided not to leave NO, knowing well that there was a hurricane bearing down. It's not like an Earthquake or a Tsunami, where you're more or less hit by surprise.
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post #17 of 30
5/15/08 at 6:15am
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Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I have no sympathy for the folks who decided not to leave NO, knowing well that there was a hurricane bearing down. It's not like an Earthquake or a Tsunami, where you're more or less hit by surprise.

Indeed. No doubt. I feel the same way about them and the same way about those FL folks that refuse to leave despite constant and persistent warnings to do so. Still, with Katrina I think it's pretty fair to say that there were still plenty of failures at the federal, state and local levels (prior, during and after) that had nothing to do with people who were able to leave staying.
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post #18 of 30
5/15/08 at 9:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I have no sympathy for the folks who decided not to leave NO, knowing well that there was a hurricane bearing down. It's not like an Earthquake or a Tsunami, where you're more or less hit by surprise.

I have the impression that if there had been school (and other) busses to take folks out of the city at the Superdome and convention center parking lots that many folks would have choosen to get on them rather than wait it out in the city.

Folks evacuated to these "shelters of last resort" provided by the city. There were what? 20-30K remaining in the city and 1M evacuated?
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post #19 of 30
5/15/08 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

How about the 100,000+ who perished in Tropical Cyclone Nargis in Burma/Myanmar? Looks like the Burmese military Junta have taken a page or 3 out of the Department of Homeland Security's disaster "response" handbook.

Why do you say stupid stuff like this? There is no comparison.
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post #20 of 30
5/15/08 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

And amplified it to 100. This military junta douchebag Senior Gen. Than Shwe had the gall to vote for his forced constitution Saturday and make it into a photo op.



There are other leaders as pathological as Bush. Worse even. This is one of them.

As far as China is concerned - heart goes out to victims - seems that relief and rescue efforts going well - doesn't change my overall opinion of them though either.

The US should not get involved other than supplying aid if possible. Their own people need to take care of this and overthrow the 'military leaders'.

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post #21 of 30
5/15/08 at 11:32pm
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The US should not get involved other than supplying aid if possible. Their own people need to take care of this and overthrow the 'military leaders'.

Unless oil is involved. In which case, preemptive strikes stating US security are in order.

Unlike the US, not every country in the world sells guns freely to its citizens. It is a bit hard to stand up to the army with sticks, knives and arrows. Arguably, this is one of the reasons why disgruntled people prefer to blow themselves up and cause damage. But then, dick weeds who guide these suicidal maniacs tend to blow up soft targets (read: civilians) instead. I believe it is a pathetic attempt to flare up tension between communities, etc. and make it difficult for the governing organization of the country. But seriously, who gives a f___ about human life these days for these tactics to work?

Anyways, let us hope for http://www.google.co.in/search?q=end...ient=firefox-a
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post #22 of 30
5/16/08 at 1:44am
Don't know if it made the news elsewhere, but here in Japan we saw a clip of a Chinese reporter asking a government official why schools and many other buildings for citizens collapsed when the buildings housing the government offices didn't. She didn't get a straight answer.

 

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post #23 of 30
5/16/08 at 6:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Don't know if it made the news elsewhere, but here in Japan we saw a clip of a Chinese reporter asking a government official why schools and many other buildings for citizens collapsed when the buildings housing the government offices didn't. She didn't get a straight answer.

I think I saw that...which is pretty amazing for China that she could ask the question and it actually got on TV. But given the extent of the coverage its not like they could avoid the question for long.

They executed the former head of the Chinese FDA and it's pretty hard to ignore hundreds of dead children so one can expect some "straight answers" or at least a scapegoated official or two heading for the hangman.
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post #24 of 30
5/16/08 at 6:59am
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Quote:
China pledged on Friday to investigate any possible wrongdoings involved in the contruction of school buildings, many of which collapsed during Monday's earthquake, killing hundreds of children.

"With the pain still fresh on our hearts, we will fully and seriously investigate this issue after rescue efforts are over. They are the top priority now," said Han Jin, director of the Ministry of Educations development and planning department during an online communication with Chinese netizens Friday morning.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...nt_6690570.htm
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post #25 of 30
5/16/08 at 7:08am
Heads will roll... possibly. Except that there likely are different building codes and assets allotted and such things may never be disclosed. The heads of construction companies will be blamed for not following standards, disposed of, and the cycle repeated. I hope this is not what transpires but rather a true change for the better.

 

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You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #26 of 30
5/16/08 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Heads will roll... possibly. Except that there likely are different building codes and assets allotted and such things may never be disclosed. The heads of construction companies will be blamed for not following standards, disposed of, and the cycle repeated. I hope this is not what transpires but rather a true change for the better.

Heads rolling is a rather literal thing in China.
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post #27 of 30
5/17/08 at 7:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

Heads rolling is a rather literal thing in China.

Nah...I hear they use lethal injection now...
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post #28 of 30
5/18/08 at 6:20am
No, that's Texas
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post #29 of 30
5/19/08 at 6:19pm
China allowed foreign rescue teams in (albeit a bit late) and has now requested a medical team from Japan.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0080520a2.html

Interestingly, following the earthquake that hit Kobe, Japan, back in 1995, foreign rescue teams were led around by watchful overseers and doctors were not invited due to licensing issues. THe Japan Medical Association wanted American doctors (as many Japanese doctors study in the US) but the politicians didn't agree.

It is nice to see things are changing. It is also wonderful to see China and Japan cooperating after so many years of spats over this and that.

And then the Japanese Board of Education goes and claims a group of islands currently administered by Korea, which will again wreak relations with Asia. Go figure.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0080520a1.html

These articles appeared on the same day.

 

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post #30 of 30
5/20/08 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

Why do you say stupid stuff like this? There is no comparison.

It's not exactly as if FEMA and the Department of Homeland "Security" have a glowing track record when it comes to disaster response, especially if the victims are mainly low income/minority/etc etc. The admin. is using the non-response in Myanmar as a way of publicly distancing itself from from the junta there to conveniently give the world some kind of false impression that they are concerned. Who amongst our powers-that-be gives a rats' ass about the fate of 150,000 low income Burmese who contribute nothing to our economic wellbeing?
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