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Windows 7 starts race with Apple to full multi-touch desktop OS - Page 2

post #41 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Project2501 View Post

Don't you have scroll wheel in your mouse?

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.
post #42 of 107
hah, honestly, I agree that it suddenly takes effort to resize your photo, look, to resize a photo using a touchpad will require about 1 or 2 inch of movement, a 15" screen will require you to move about 12" just to resize the photo and you will still wont be happy with the size of the photo cause using the keypad is the best way to get an image to the size you want.

Beside, I wont want to keep touching my notebook screen just to use it, its stupid. and what happen if its the monitor is flimsy?
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post #43 of 107
Always there to help MS, I've found the theme song for this, err, innovation :

Touch Me



post #44 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamochan View Post

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

Immediate action = change mouse.
post #45 of 107
Thanks for having to upgrade your copy of expired Windows XP to Windows 7..

Please feel free to spend $1000 for a new desktop/laptop computer ... and if you wish to use Windows 7 Ultimate Touch Version, please spend an additional $700-$1000 for a touch screen ...

For business users it has CxO toy value in a powerpoint presentation...

For everyone else, those of us who move and resize photos for a living ! or finger paint it is worth upgrading for this little feature.
post #46 of 107
Almost forget to mention that it would be nice if your keyboard can become like another touch screen and you can have a fully customized keyboard, imagine if you can have all Photoshop palettes at the place of your keyboard, no need to remember keyboard shortcuts and more designing screen size estate.

The bad part about this idea is that touch surfaces dun have tactile feedback.
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post #47 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal007 View Post

Always there to help MS, I've found the theme song for this, err, innovation :

Touch Me




I was thinking "Rocky Horror" ... Toucha Toucha Toucha Me .... I wanna feel Dirty!
post #48 of 107
Maybe they can use it on the Zune.
post #49 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

I think if any "computer" came out as a touch screen it would be redesigned kinda in the triangular shape of a keyboard only extended with a slight swoop upwards and outwards of the "monitor" with some nice "curve" appeal" (c'mon Jonathon Ives), but both pretty much laying flat on your desk. The keyboard would not have physical keys but like the multi-touch keyboard of the iPhone and the screen would have to be flat on the table, otherwise who wants to be raising their arms all the time to use their fingers to gesture the icons and such. So we get rid of the keyboard and mouse and have an iMac like all in one unit but not standing vertically upright as an iMac screen looks now but as if you took the iMac and laid it flat on top of you desk. Of course instead of carpal tunnel syndrome in your wrists you'd always have a crick in your neck from constantly looking down.

Anyone else out there have a design idea as to how to make a multi touch, touch screen computer/laptop? What would yours look like?

That's what I'm saying. People don't want to look down at their monitor, or have to raise their hands to their screen. The only thing that's changing in the this equation is the keyboard. Your keyboard [and possibly mouse] are unplugged and replaced with another keyboard- except this keyboard is a multi-touch surface. So it can be a keyboard when needed, or a tablet for photoshop for direct drawing, or a customized interface for video editing or audio mixing. This isn't complicated.

As for laptops, see the picture of the EO-2 pictured earlier in the thread. That's the basic idea.
post #50 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

post #51 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

Let multi-touch supplement the mouse the same way the mouse supplements the keyboard. Get a desktop implementation that's as well thought out as the iPhone UI before you decide it's useless in a desktop environment.

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment. Originally the keyboard's only purpose was to be used for text input. Keyboard key combinations were later added to help certain users make the transition from a text based interface to a graphical interface.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #52 of 107
How many SW engineers does MS have? How much do they pay them? Do they grind the creativity out of them? Don't any of them sit there and say, "what am I doing here?", my bosses are wrecking my stock holdings with this lame crap.

For all this money they should be erupting in original ideas. You can tell the type of management that MS has if this is the best they can come up with. And it must be layered something awful, with lots of long detailed design review meetings that they substitute for actual work. I gotta get a book on MS and see how they do it.

I own a small chain of comic book stores. I hire people with creative drive who have crappy degrees, or none at all. I think MS would do themselves some good if they gave up the cream of the crop SW engineer (and I do have a few myself) hiring practice and concentrated on some out of the box thinkers who can't write a lick of code and would burn some bridges over there. We get the creative guys to figure out change things and get the IT department to figure it out.

Ugh.
post #53 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

When MS starts hyping a feature you know it's become passe.

The race to make a fully multi-touch desktop is absolutely absurd. Geez thanks
you've turned my computer into a Kiosk. I'm impressed.

Tell me why I would rather reach up and take two fingers and pinch or extend them to resize a picture when a mouse click in the area and a scroll of the mouse wheel could do the same thing with less effort?

Multi touch desktops are an anathema to ergonomic computing if you're talking about computing on a vertical surface. It's just a horrible idea.

Multi touch is fine on a small portable device where you want to eschew a keyboard and mouse but makes absolutely NO sense on a desktop.

"Have IQs suddenly dropped while I was away?"

Lt Ripley

Pretty much what I was going to post. Unless you work with images or graphics, it's a niche product area.
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post #54 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by svesan03 View Post

Anyone who would use anything Microsoft makes unless they absolutely, positively had to must be nuts, or, retired with too much time on their hands.

I'm a long-time lurker, and recent poster to AppleInsider. But it's comments like these that make me angry and upset. Why must people be so elitist and pig-headed with regards to a choice in operating systems? Who cares if someone wants to use Windows? Is it REALLY that much of a hindrance to you?

Jesus, you'd think that Microsoft killed your first born or something. I don't seem to see many PC-centric sites/forum users bashing Apple or its operating system (at least not like back in the good 'old days ), but I see that Windows hate is alive and well here... just for the sake of being mean-spirited.

I personally use Windows Vista on my desktop, Windows XP on my Eee PC notebook, and I have an iPod touch which has become a tool that I can't live without. But all three systems perform how I expect them to, and all get the job done wonderfully.

After purchasing my iPod touch, I have the inclination to purchase a Mac system, but the prices for a new system are a bit beyond what I want to pay right now.

That being said, why can't we all get along? Why does everything that mentions Microsoft have to turn into a bitchfest with flames thrown left and right? Grow up, please.
post #55 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by acvball92 View Post

hahaha very funny
i love how the lady kept on referring to the iphone, made me feel good knowing i own several apple products

I imagine the gut wrenching internal feelings of the MS team each and every time too , I bet they could hear the TV ad in their heads, "PC is number two! PC is number two"
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #56 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

mmmm ... let me think ... I have iPhone now, I have MacBook with gestures now ... I have seen 1000 pound demo with projectors from MS and I have used Vista ...

Gosh, this is hard ...
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post #57 of 107
You can bet that when Gates and Balmer were touting the future potential of Multi-Touch technology, that they weren't staring into a crystal ball. They were staring at an iPhone.

Don't think about using MT on a desktop computer screen. But rather on a big trackpad to replace a mouse. Much like a MT pad on a laptop. Only this pad would change it features based on the program you're running. You would also get two curser to appear on your screen if you place a thumb and finger lightly on the pad so you can gage your location for a pinch motion

It would behave like a regular trackpad with some programs. But in Photoshop you would be able to paint, draw, erase, trace by using your finger. In iMovie, you would be able to drag and drop clips to your timeline by using your finger. You would be able change the time of a photo by using a pinching motion on the photo. With a home remodelling program you would be able to not only move furnitures around in a virtual room with your finger but rotate them as well. Designing photo layouts would be a breeze if you can size, locate and rotate your images with your finger. You would be able to add signatures to documents with the aid of a stylus. With games you can place a thin overlay over it with outlines of buttons and scroll area and then customize the buttons for the game. Two of them put together (along with an overlay) gets you a piano keyboard for Garage Band. When playing songs or movies from iTunes it would mimic the click wheel of an iPod. Much more intuitive and useful than using a graphic tablet and stylus. Think of it as a MacPro trackpad on steroids.
post #58 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

I'm a long-time lurker, and recent poster to AppleInsider. But it's comments like these that make me angry and upset. Why must people be so elitist and pig-headed with regards to a choice in operating systems? Who cares if someone wants to use Windows? Is it REALLY that much of a hindrance to you?

Jesus, you'd think that Microsoft killed your first born or something. I don't seem to see many PC-centric sites/forum users bashing Apple or its operating system (at least not like back in the good 'old days ), but I see that Windows hate is alive and well here... just for the sake of being mean-spirited.

I personally use Windows Vista on my desktop, Windows XP on my Eee PC notebook, and I have an iPod touch which has become a tool that I can't live without. But all three systems perform how I expect them to, and all get the job done wonderfully.

After purchasing my iPod touch, I have the inclination to purchase a Mac system, but the prices for a new system are a bit beyond what I want to pay right now.

That being said, why can't we all get along? Why does everything that mentions Microsoft have to turn into a bitchfest with flames thrown left and right? Grow up, please.

Oh come on lighten up While some of us were around when MS stole Mac OS ... many of us use both and say these things with a good amount of feelings based on actual usage of both. So we are in both camps and feel qualified to trash MS

I am glad you feel Vista performs well. My experience daily on an 8 Core Xeon is pretty horrible. Excuse me, Vista is asking to allow me to run a bunch of updates and reboot, oh and telling me it isn't safe as it has no firewall (Kaspersky has though) and it wants to turn auto update on (I don't) and ... oh well I will leave it be and work on my Mac for now.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #59 of 107
I thought that demonstration was cringeworthy and underwhelming. Microsoft love to keep showing that messy screen with all the photos at odd angles. Computers are supposed to keep things ordered, uncluttered and accessible.

What is with the shitty interfaces? Wow, it's a piano on my screen! Un-freaking-believable Microsoft. You're saying I can manually rotate a globe for a whole minute just to locate the nearest starbucks. I'm so inspired to stab myself in the head.

Apple have shown beautiful restraint with the roll out of multi-touch support. They iPhone's keyboard could have absolutely killed the device had the error correction not been so elegant. Two finger scrolling and zooming mapped to the Macbook Air trackpad are no-nonsense and useful additions to the interface.
post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Oh come on lighten up While some of us were around when MS stole Mac OS ... many of us use both and say these things with a good amount of feelings based on actual usage of both. So we are in both camps and feel qualified to trash MS

I am glad you feel Vista performs well. My experience daily on an 8 Core Xeon is pretty horrible. Excuse me, Vista is asking to allow me to run a bunch of updates and reboot, oh and telling me it isn't safe as it has no firewall (Kaspersky has though) and it wants to turn auto update on (I don't) and ... oh well I will leave it be and work on my Mac for now.

I use my Vista machine for Photoshop, email (Thunderbird), word/spreadsheet processing (Office 2007), Internet (Firefox 3), and various other small apps. It doesn't take much to run those applications, and Vista does the job -- and my whole HP desktop machine cost roughly $350 new.

As for asking about a bunch of updates? MS releases the bulk of its updates on the second Tuesday of every month, and only rarely do they require a reboot (for Vista). So again, what's the big deal?

My only annoyance with Vista is UAC which I turned off on day one

I just don't understand the constant hate of Mac users towards Windows. If it's not for you, fine. But the constant bitching gets a bit old... that's all I'm saying
post #61 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobertoq View Post

hahah

Ahhh.... just another example of how Microsoft copies Apple...

"
Mhh.... Hey Bill! Start your iPhotocopier! Look! Apple just released this thing called an iPhone with 'multi-touch features'
oh my gooosh! GROOOOVY! They also released a a MacBook Air and Pro with these features of multi touching!
-- that's amazing! I'll go get my iPhotocopier...
"


Actually microsoft has been working on these touch features LONG before apple had come out with the iphone. While surface may have been officially demoed this year it has been shown off before. Years ago.

Apple copies too.
post #62 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

A Yoda in our midst!
post #63 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

A Yoda in our midst!

Oops.... I see that wilco beat me to it.
post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geddy Lee's Nose View Post

Seems like a solid alternate to buying one of those 2 grand wacom tablet. Other than that it, would take some convincing to purchase.


This one isn't so much. I use it quite often and is very durable. With programmable buttons it works wonders with Adobe products. It was my work around when Apple removed the number pad on the keyboard of their Macbook Pros.

My thought is that I know quite a few people need that tactile feeling and haptic feedback (citing the rumor that the new iPhone will have vibration feedback) that a touch screen lacks. The keyboard will never phase out in my opinion because people like pressing on things and hearing that clickity clack of a keyboard. Also, when you're reshaping pictures or adjusting things, you won't be able to see what you're doing because... well... your hands are in the way.

They should leave the multi-touch designs to devices that do not have a readily available mouse. The iPhone, Mb Air, and Mb Pro are all perfect executions of this technology.

As for Windows 7 it seems to be bogged down with an exceptional amount of lag. At one point it didn't even register on paint to which she attempts to cover up as quick as she can. Granted it's still in its development stage, but a company should never demo anything that flawed. Not to be an Apple brat, but every time I see a new apple product be demoed it runs smoothly and the faults usually come from the person presenting more so than the device.

This is quite a big blow for Microsoft as people will most likely call it a giant iPhone.
post #65 of 107
I forgot to mention that people who eat while they work on their computers and gamers who don't exactly consume the cleanest of foods would most likely destroy their touch screens within a month.
Greasy fingers will make for illegible screens.
post #66 of 107
I was impressed immediately when the demo started off with Paint.exe.
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post #67 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Apple copies too.

Apple they do, but if you're going to buy/borrow/steal someone's else's idea you should be make a demo that is more impressive than the previous one's done.

Jeff Han's multi-touch demo was very impressive to watch, but wasn't focused on specific usage.

Apple's mult-touch demo was veru impressive to watch, as it did focus on specific usage and complete app packages.

This MS demo should have been have something that Apple hasn't yet done and shouldn't have been a less complete demo than what Han did in early 2006.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/65 There is a reason Apple usually only showcases software after it's nearly complete. MS is trying to generate positive press again with another lackluster idea and implementation.
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post #68 of 107
In related news, Windows 7 is not going to feature the new MinWin Kernel and will instead resort back to an "improved" (whatever that means by MS standards) version of the Windows Server 2008 Kernel, which is an "improved" version of the Vista Kernel.

So Vista has dumped the new file system, 7 dumps the new Kernel, what are they going to dump next, the last bit of usability?
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post #69 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment. Originally the keyboard's only purpose was to be used for text input. Keyboard key combinations were later added to help certain users make the transition from a text based interface to a graphical interface.

On day one Macintosh had keyboard shortcuts with the apple key. Before macintosh the only want to work programs was to memorize all of the key combinations. When Macintosh came out, the critics complained that the mouse was a waste of time, that they were perfectly fine using keyboard combinations in their programs, nevermind that each program had a different set of commands to learn.

Today the mouse has supplemented the keyboard. There are some things you can do with either, there are other things that wouldn't be possible without a mouse. I see multi-touch displays working much the same way. There will be some things you can do with either mouse or touch, there will be other new things that you will be able to do with touch that you couldn't really do with a mouse or keyboard.
post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment.

Supplement: something that completes or enhances something else when added to it. I'd say that definition fits well.
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post #71 of 107
WOW.. MS is using 2007 mobile phone technology as a marketing tool for a 2010 operating system!!!!

Like always,

Windows 7 Basic = $259
Windows 7 Touch Home = $379
Windows 7 Touch Business = $399
Windows 7 Touch Pro = $499

post #72 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamochan View Post

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

That's right folks, human hands are dirty and depositing oil and small flakes of skin all over your computer surface... multi-touch screens on desktop computers is a moronic idea. Multi-touch keyboards, OTOH could be useful.

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GOA

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post #73 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamochan View Post

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

Solution:
1- Unplug your mouse.
2- Spray a liquid cleaner, such as Windex, on your mouse-ball.
3- Press-down firmly on the mouse-ball while vigorously scrolling up/down, left/right until the gunk is released and the ball starts to move the sensor (you should feel and hear a very light continuous clicking sound in all directions).
4- Dry the mouse-ball with a lint-free cloth.
5- Repeat from Step 2, one more time.

It works for me every-time.
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post #74 of 107
I thought Apple had patented the "touch" tech for the iPhone etc? How is it MS is doing the same thing now?
post #75 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypoluxa View Post

I thought Apple had patented the "touch" tech for the iPhone etc? How is it MS is doing the same thing now?

They do have patents, but so do others. If I recall correctly, Apple licensed or bought Han's IP for the iPhone, which means they specifically used his method of multi-touch technology, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch#History I really don't know, hopefully someone will school us.
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post #76 of 107
... And surprisingly enough Windows Mobile 7 will have a similar name and multitouch features. Well I bet Windows 7 Mobile will probably be using the Windows 7 OS.

Overall the only thing half decent MSFT has made in the last 5 years was the Xbox 360. Everything else was just a lame copy of something else that was somehow flawed, and even the 360 had hardware issues.

Soon the Mac OS will be the number 1 OS and Microsoft knows it.
post #77 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleWizard View Post

Overall the only thing half decent MSFT has made in the last 5 years was the Xbox 360. Everything else was just a lame copy of something else that was somehow flawed, and even the 360 had hardware issues.

...and even that has cost them billions.

Quote:
Soon the Mac OS will be the number 1 OS and Microsoft knows it.

I wouldn't hold your breath. I don't foresee anything that has happened yet to indicate that OS X will outsell Windows anytime soon... or later.
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post #78 of 107
Null.
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post #79 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Project2501 View Post

Official support maybe, but the machines have had the ability long before that. See: iScroll2, works perfectly

I'm gonna try that with my old footlong, it's the only thing that drives me nuts when I use my old powerbook. I really had no idea how much I relied on the two finger scroll ..
post #80 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They do have patents, but so do others. If I recall correctly, Apple licensed or bought Han's IP for the iPhone, which means they specifically used his method of multi-touch technology, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch#History I really don't know, hopefully someone will school us.

apple acquired fingerworks sometime around Feb 2005.
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