Tidbits: Retail blackout days; 3G iPhone ad filming; iPhone GPS - Page 2

Apparently you have no idea what you are talking about. Some of the best 'hackers' in the world have been caught, sentenced to jail and upon their release are hired by companies and sometimes the government in order to lead their cyber security groups. I'm not comparing these kids to some of the worlds best hackers, but to say that all security experts are clean, you're wrong.

I think you are mentally challenged. Someone else has already drawn attention to the illegal activities of Apples founders when they were kids. So how did those kids turn out again? How could you write such drivel after reading such a brilliant example - or didn't you read it and comprehend the irony? Just to help you understand the previous sentence, here's a hint, irony has nothing to do with ferrous metals.

Your extrapolations are extreme, rendering your argument nonsensical.

Looks very dodgy indeed. And apart from the photo story, it seems as if a private company (not the State) has prosecuted those kids and imposed some kind of a "vertical" penalty (no visit to Apple stores for life!!!), which also applies "horizontally" (in all jurisdictions ...). Or is this some kind of a bizarre "exclusion clause" if we approach the matter from the purely contract law point of view? But contracts have to be negotiated and entered into in the first place, and the exclusion clauses have to be properly brought to the attention and to be "reasonable" ... This is so disputable. But I don't think those kids will go to court now will they? At the end of the day, one must admit that Apple may have well started a criminal complaint against the kids, which they didn't. So it's probably just a trade-off, after all.

kind of sucks calling someone dumb and spelling it wrong.

Anyway, another poster stated that the punishment should be proportionate to the crime here. Did they break store rules.. absolutely. If the manager "created" a lifetime ban in his anger, great. It will probably only be in effect for that store. How many of the rugrats working is apple are going to notice that these kids resemble the faux wanted poster created by the manager? How does the manager of this store have the power to ban someone from every Apple store? It is a toothless punishment.

As far as comparing what they did to other crimes. Remember, the penal law in this country (at the Federal level and the state level) classify levels of felonies and misdemeanors because some criminal activity is not as serious as others. To call what they did vandalism is a bit inaccurate. In New York, you have either committed graffiti and/or criminal mischief. There are different degrees based on a number of factors, including but not limited to the amount of monetary damaged caused.

Looking at this scenario, these little idiots were barely responsible for disorderly conduct (which is a violation, like a traffic ticket, and is not a crime). Monetary damage? Less than ten minutes to restore the item. So factor in ten minutes of the Apple employees time to this, ten minutes of his/her BS hourly wage will not get you up to criminal mischief.

What they did was tedious and annoying. What the manager did was more than adequate on behalf of Apple (although totally useless). The damage, if any, was committed on a display model. Comparing the display model (not an actual retail box model) to a test driven porsche is overreaching. Comparing to allowing young kids to rape a 13 year old, get control of yourself.
Since what they did amounts to a violation, a traffic ticket, will you tell the cop that pulls you over and let's you go that what he just did amounts to letting someone get away with rape because they have an otherwise clean record? Apples and oranges, people.

Even without the hyperbole you're just wrong. And how the heck did you get Microsoft into this? Does Bill Gates go around photographing and banning hackers or something? Do you agree with M$ business practices of copying two-year old tech and claiming it as their own "innovation?"

as for these irritating teens, if I walk into a store and take all the products off the shelves and lay them out on the floor, the shop has every right to evict me, ban me and even call the police, as I'm probably breaking some kind of law. The fact that the products can be easily picked up and put back on the shelf - kind of like the iPhone being restored - is irrelevant. You don't go into a shop and screw up the products, and you certainly don't vandalise electronic goods like an iPhone and not expect punishment.

If these were plain, simple vandals everyone would agree with the manager, but as they are "hackers," people seem to think we should bow down to their superior skilz and all that BS. Good riddance to them, it's a pity they weren't arrested.

There is no meeting of the minds as far as referring to any type of contract law here. Taking pictures of the two kids is not "further" commercial activity, but to protect their physical property from further damage by these individuals. The damage is seriously minor. Vertical and horizontal penalties don't apply here since this is a private business. They can only be complainants, not prosecutors of this activity (other than being plaintiffs in a civil action to recover damages). There is no condition that would permit Apple's counsel to appointed as special prosecutor because the state/city/municipality is unable to proceed. I fail to see the "prosecution" here. Are you a first year?

They aren't furthering commercial activities using these photos. How does banning a couple of dumb hackers from a store equate to that?



I think you can cross "Store Manager" off your list off potential employment options.


They messed up the phones and left them requiring maintenance to get working again. There are many crimes in the world whose consequences can be corrected, with varying levels of ease - do you think those crimes should be rescinded? Or do you just want to come on here and call everyone childish names if they don't agree with you?

Someone drew a line up the side of my car a couple of years ago. It was fairly easy to clean off, and there was no harm done, but whoever did it was guilty of vandalism, pure and simple, and if the opportunity arose I'd be more than happy for them to be punished. Presumably you'd just let them walk away? Unless it was your own car, of course, or your own iPhone, in which case you'd be singing a very different tune.

One problem with the world today is that more and more crimes are becoming "acceptable" - usually motoring offences, but increasingly of types of crime. The level of "acceptable crime" - which in itself in an oxymoron, IMO - keeps rising. "Hey, it's only a phone, Apple has loads more of them."

Pay some to fix it?!? Laughing there is some there getting paid to fix something some kid or adult has messed up on a minute by minute basis. As a Apple employee (Mac Genius) we hear about such things all the time and think.. huh I guess there is a bit more work to do. As far as the manager pulling this stunt: here is a little break down for you. IT'S RETAIL. When have you not met a store manager with a GOD complex. Just as the Mall of Georgia and 5th ave store both managers have this "I am GOD there for you are nothing because I am a store manager of a retail store." So yea the chasing down and the long winded talk was nothing more than transference of the manager getting yell at by his/her boss and taking it out on some kids. As far as the ban, yea not going to happen. On a side note this store is one of the worse stores in the company. Yea it's our little secret. This manager is nothing more than a sad excuse for someone who can't move into a real position. Management is nothing more than a bully pulpit, which sadly is needed in the retail store. So thank you dear store manager for proving a point, about retail.

Granted, we're all expecting that 3G iPhone then, but keep in mind that Apple's end-of-quarter is June 30th, so all the deals that the company needs to make have to be made then. So yeah, makes sense that nobody is allowed to take vacations during that block of time.
This is also the reason the big Student-push is happening before July.
Yeah, we love Apple and their innovative products, but they're a big company like any other looking to make as much money as possible - this drives further development and keeps them in the black!

And that makes it okay to do? Because other people do it "all the time." Gimme a break.

For the few of you who happen to think that it's okay to go into someone else's place of business and "hack" the computers, whether they're display or not, please post your business address so that I can come by and hack yours. You shouldn't mind, since it's all just good natured fun.

Even if it only takes 10 mins to restore an iPhone as someone pointed out, that's 10 mins of an employee's time that the company has to pay for.

Now, just so I don't sound to self-righteous, it occurred to me in the early days of iPhone hacking that going to the jailbreak website with a display model would be humorous, until my maturity response kicked back in and realized it was just the wrong thing to do.

edit:


Read your post after mine. We're on the same page.

What is GSP?

Geezus, you guys are funny. Why don't you guys point out what isn't purportedly tied to Apple 3G's phone launch!?

I ate at the BJ's Brewery by the Apple HQ the other day in Cupertino, and saw a bunch of Apple engineers sitting at an outside table.

The abundance of Apple engineers at one establishment...must be tied to the upcoming 3G iPhone launch.

The photo that was published looks way more polished than a shot of criminals on the street, more of a head shot, like it was planned.

I can't believe some people on this forum don't understand the difference between hacking someone else's phone and using a demo model at a store. Now, I've never used an iPhone at an apple store, but I have used the demo models of many different computers there and then must use something like net-restore, ccc, etc to re-image the machines every night or possibly more often. People are always screwing up the hardware on display. This is normal and to be expected. The models on display are for playing with. If something breaks then you just replace it with a spare from the back room and re-image it. 15 minutes later everything is back to normal. If these two kids had hacked someone's personal iPhone then they should be arrested, but using a demo model to do anything should be allowed.

--laurence

Oh grow up.

If you read the Palo Alto article, which has a different tone than the Appleinsider "summary", it appears the one Apple Store manager overreacted. If I may read between the lines, the manager was on a bit of power trip. In this particular case, the kids weren't doing much wrong, and the Apple Store manager calling the police and having them detain the kids for 2 hours for an "admonishment" is way over the top. In this particular case, the worst the kids should have experienced is being kicked out of the store for the day.

In general though, teens are criminally stupid. They can explore all they want, but if they start doing things outside of accepted behavior, such as vandalism, yeah, they should be punished.

This literally made me face-palm. None of these made any sense related to who you quoted and the majority of them are just baseless whining concerning what you think Apple should be doing or are just plain wrong.


Script-kiddies ≠ Hackers.

If they took a screwdriver to an iPhone and started cutting wires this might not be so absurd. They did NOT vandalize any merchandise. They did show how much cooler the iPhone will be in a few weeks when Apple corrects their initial blunder of assuming all worthwhile ideas will come from Apple. They made the same sort of blunder with the Lisa and weren't able to recover from it in time with third party apps. If you are an Apple shareholder you can only hope that the iPhone won't be rendered passé by third party apps on Android.

The other possibility which might be an issue is whether the parents of these teen-agers from Palo Alto are both rich and pissed off. The manager ran down the street and dragged the kids back into the store over this incident? Have you heard of false imprisonment? They didn't shoplift or vandalize anything. If they were my kids I can guarantee I would be talking to a lawyer about bringing action. They were tinkering with a display model which was on display for people to tinker with and see how it operates. I know the store employees aren't exactly Apple engineers but this level of stupidity reflects poorly on Apple.

I don't see this is much different than potential customers browsing web sites in the store and bookmarking them...only to be erased when the machines are returned to "stock" configuration during the after-hours restore process.

The manager's actions were dumber than dirt and he should have been the one sanctioned.

As articulated above, the store units are there for customers to tinker with. No foul as long as they can be restored at day's end.

apple has the right to protect its products, remember wouldn't someone else "demo" the phone as well, it's apple's store. then have them buy it walk out the store then do it. also it wouldn't take no time for them to put their video exploits on youtube or myspace to gloat. it's apples store so good for them....protect their product and send a message.

There is a great deal of difference between the acts. Allowing a potential customer to add Safari bookmarks is a demonstration of the devices functions and capabilities. What the kids did was to alter the functionality of the iPhone. It no longer was the device that Apple was selling. That is their crime, altering a merchants wares into a product that is not being offered.

For all of you who think that this is ok, do you think it is acceptable to go around adding files and apps to display computers? Or do you think that some is ok (Firefox for example) and others are not (porn screen savers)?

Is it just me or does this seem funny since Steve Jobs used to talk about hacking into AT&T to make free international calls when he was in college???

Keep this photo on file. These kids may be on the cover of Fortune in 5- 10 years.

(Or of course, they could be sleeping on their mom's sofa in the basement.)

What everyone needs to realize is that these kids did nothing more than what thousands of kids do every day by downloading programs or changing desktop appearances on demo computers at your local big box electronics store. Basically, I see a bunch of technically-illiterate people throwing up the red flags because they hear the term "hacking" used and thus emotionally associate these harmless kids with real "hackers" that are responsible for economic loss, identity theft, etc. Remember, the only thing the kids did was visit a website that allows 3rd party applications to be installed on the iPhone. This iPhone was NOT someone's personal property, but a store display unit that is provided for customers to play with and become accustomed to the device. Just like my analogy with teens who change the desktop wallpaper of in-store computers to something inappropriate, It at most requires a firm "please do not change things on the display units" from an employee and nothing more. What's funny is that most stores don't even allow employees to chase actual shop-lifters out of the store for fear of their own safety. In this case, the store manager not only chased the kids down the street but involved the city police for such an inconsequential situation. This 3-hour circus should have taken 5 seconds.



I never said anything about "letting the kids explore", and the reason why I said the manager should be fired is because of his wholesale lack of judgment in physically chasing the kids down the street and involving the police for such nonsense. The damaging PR itself is enough to have this looney thrown out.

Also, again, the kids did not "vandalize" anyone's property ---- the iPhone continued to have exactly the same functionality that existed prior to modification and did not need to be "repaired". They downloaded a game for god sakes. Funnier still is the fact that the website they visited that allowed them to install the 3rd party game actually *FIXES* the existing security hole.



Are you serious? They weren't messing with someone's personal iPhone they grabbed from a purse! they were playing with the DEMO UNITS PROVIDED BY THE STORE FOR CUSTOMERS TO INTERACT WITH! That is entirely different than affecting someone's personal property. And for your crap analogy about a car dealership, what they did would be like changing the radio stations on a car.



How is downloading a game not "a demonstration of a device's capabilities"? And I'm glad you brought up the case of kids messing with display computers. That happens thousands of times every day, and you sure as hell don't see kids being accosted down the street and arrested by local police.



That's ironic since I run a network of online stores.



"irony has nothing to do with ferrous metals." -- HAHAH! that is a good one.



hmmm.. I don't think your nonsense even deserves a reply... bah.

Thanks to Playstation et al kids today are too fat to run!

You clearly misunderstand why they don't support AVI. Not only is AVI an obsolete format, it's also a competitor's format. DivX is a frankenformat too, no reason to support such an odd contraption except for the pirates, who don't seem to know better than use bizarre file formats.

Apple doesn't support WMA / WMV because it's a competitor's format. AAC is actually an open format. MP3 is a defacto open format.


I do use it. Keep in mind that Quicktime isn't just an app, it's a framework. The Quicktime you see is just a front-end. If you use iTunes to play music or videos, you're using Quicktime too. If you use EyeTV, you are using Quicktime. If you use iMovie, you're using Quicktime.


I do wish Apple supported more Bluetooth stuff.


Switching browsers takes maybe three mouse clicks.


I don't know what Google innovation you are talking about that Apple is distrusting.

With Adobe, there are both legitimate technical reasons not to support flash yet, though the real deal-killer within Apple might be about ego or licensing terms. I wouldn't run flash on a 600MHz computer, why would I want to run it on a 600MHz iPhone?

People like you overly downplay how much user-generated media is on YouTube.

If it takes any work to fix it, then you'd be right, but it does take time to fix. That time costs money. It might cost the store $15 or so to fix. Don't just cite the cost in wages either, there's a lot more to how much an hour of an employees time costs than just wages. It's not necessarily a lot, but it's best not to let a lot of kids do it repeatedly.

It's just chest-thumping. The guy wants to sound like he's being serious when he's being a bit fruity.

It sounds like the threat that used to be made decades ago "this will be put in your permanent record!".

You very correctly summarised my point (see the last sentence), as to the rest - you just got distracted ... I repeat - the only thing that Apple could (and should) have done in the circumstances was to become private complainants in criminal proceedings; but they chose not to. And the kids probably signed a paper consenting to the release of photos in return for Apple's promise of no criminal complaint. That's all there is to this story.

You are wrong though if you think that a unilateral release of the photos with the heading such as this one - even in the imputed circumstances - can be justified as such. And please let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy law in different Western jurisdictions. Moreover - in some countries this would raise an additional issue of a breach of "image rights" ... It is enough to say that the qualification of the release of photos would be different depending on a country - but the fact remains that the issue would be the one for the court, and the one which would warrant a careful consideration of competing interests, not an outright dismissal in favour of preventing "damage by these individuals" (as your post purports to imply).

Some good points there. Unlike by some of those hard-line Apple cheerleaders who are too blindfolded to allow a possibility that this treatment may (and I stress the word may) have been just a tad too excessive? We don't know all the facts, so why rush with conclusions?

Google Maps, for starters, would be a killer ap to go with GPS o iPhone2.

And as far as Flash goes - I do think it's about "ego" more than anything else.

The bottom line of the initial message that accused Apple of resembling Microsoft was, to my mind, that Apple always used to be about innovation and being a few steps ahead of the game - for the benefit of the demanding consumer. But now it is increasingly about protecting the existing technology at the expense of development. Worse still, it is increasingly about big-company ambitions and about serving the "average, common" user - hence the Microsoft reference.

But Apple basically uses Google Maps already. Are you suggesting that Google would pull support fo that back? I don't know what that would gain.


Have you tried using Flash on a 600MHz computer lately?

It's a minimum requirement, I know, but it does not mean in itself it cannot be accommodated.

That it's happens thousands of times still doesn't make it right. It is wrong, thousands of times wrong. They are modifying the advertisements of what the vendor is selling. Potentially customers could see your downloaded game and buy the product expecting to find the game and then be disappointed to find the game was not there when they got home. Now your vendor has to deal with an unhappy customer. Not right at all, these kids and the thousands of others you site are vandals pure and simple. The cost of the repair is irrelevant and minor to the potential cost of goodwill to the vendor.

Just to remind people ---- as I'm a windows user for time being ---- the Flash plug-in for some reason seems much more resource hungry and computationally demanding on Mac OSX than it is on Windows. I believe this was even more pronounced on the POWER architecture, but apparently still exists on Intel Macs. Assuming it's a problem with the plumbing from Flash to Cocoa/Quartz, this would then carry over to the iPhone, would it not? Also, the ARM architecture may be a another source of inefficiency. I'd bet that Apple has already got flash running on the iPhone, and the performance sucks big time. Anyone know the details on this? Anyone know about someone getting the OSX flash plugin to work on the iPhone?



You are correct in that what they did was probably technically wrong, but i sure don't consider these kids vandals. My primary point was that this situation should have been dealt with by a simple, but firm "please do not modify the display models". It should have taken 2 minutes and then been over instead of this ludicrous situation of a store manager chasing kids down the street and calling the police. In fact, it's a waste of time event talking about this anymore.

In this case, I don't think it matters. Even on a Windows computer, something running at 600MHz, I don't think flash was good enough, I avoided it whenever possible. Even on faster computers I tend to block it. And a phone is quite a bit more limited in resources than my computer was.

It doesn't work that way in California. You cannot simply elect to become a private complainant in a criminal proceeding. You make a criminal complaint or the police make it on your behalf after you sign off on their complaint/report. The local municipality then goes on it from there.

You make a rather large assumption regarding the quid pro quo between the young men and Apple with regards to release and the promise not to follow through with a criminal complaint. I guess as the hasty manager ran down the street with his digital camera, he happened to consult Apple's Legal Department, print the release and haul ass down the street.

You evade the real answer, as you do not have it, by stating "let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy laws in different Western jurisdictions" and then go on to compare. You are correct, initially...let's not compare. It is the state of California and the laws govering the United States that apply. There is no need of discussion of "different Western jurisdictions". We are talking about these two men in the state of California. No one posed the question "what if this occurred in Paris or London?"

Statements like "careful consideration of competing interests" is what is terrible about the legal profession in general. Every case is a landmark case. Ugh...give that crap up. I am an attorney and I can't stand when attorneys stand on ceremony when the situation does not deserve it. It would be the greatest injustice to have this situation debated in the highest court in the land when there are far more important matters like abortion, same-sex marriage, parental rights and numerous Constitutional violations/extensions, to name a few, that need to be considered.

A perfect example of this is all of the time and energy wasted by the RIAA. I have defended a number of cases against them in my criminal practice and have read their contribution to pre-sentencing investigations. Essentially, they purport to represent the interest of the victim record companies and artists and provide the court with their ridiculous assessment of the damages from the records sold (ie: fake cd case, they stated that each cd had a retail value of $27.99). The record labels and the artists do not sell the cd's at retail so that number is inflated to begin with. But in the report they provide to the court, they state that the money gained from the restitution does not go back to the record labels or the artists, but is paid directly to the RIAA to continue to bring lawsuits and be involved in seeking restitution in criminal cases. It is a self-perpetuating machine that serves only their own ends. Currently, there is litigation pending to remove their direct involvement as they are not a direct party to the damages incurred and should not receive any monetary reward (as far as the criminal cases are concerned).

They STOPPED? Now, THAT is dumb!
Didn't those kids learn that you RUN LIKE HELL when someone tells you to stop?

On second thought, they looked a little doughy for that kind of activity.

If nothing else, That little stunt will look great on their resumes.

I have been known to change the channel on a Directv display at a store to watch a game that was on, I have, just as a goof, changed the screensavers and wallpapers on display PCs at bestbuy, I have done all kinds of stupid things that I do not wanna talk about, far worse than jailbreaking an iphone...never been kicked out of anyplace...

Oh yea, one time, at the rype ole' age of 16, I maxed out the volume on every demo receiver and amp in a home theater room at a big electronics store, waited outside a few minutes and hilarity ensued.

Apple will be killed by its own self lust, The culture at Apple is unsustainable long term, odds are those kids are or were great apple customers, how many ipods do they own? iphones too maybe? Macs? iTunes downloads? I know of 6 people under 25 who have iphones, 5 of us have them cracked and jailbroke...Please steve, arrest me, I DOUBLE DARE YA

I just wanted to point out how ridiculous this post is.

Thanks.

Wow calm down, you act as if Jobs personally banned these guys. The whole campany isn't responsible for one managers actions.