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Apple's Mac OS X 10.6 code named "Snow Leopard" - report - Page 2

post #41 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

It's going to take a lot of selling to get customers to buy into a feature that promises to look worse and take a lot more processing power at the same time. I honestly don't understand the hankering for this feature. Unless you have 200dpi displays or like to look at things reeeeally up close it doesn't buy you anything, and just makes stuff less than pixel-perfect.

It doesn't look worse, especially when the only other option is to use a non-native resolution on your display because the text on your 20" or 24" iMac or 30" ACD is too small to read.

It also doesn't take any more processing power as it's being written into the code so it executes the same way as it would as x==1. You seem to be looking at this from a young notebook users POV, and not someone with a larger display and less than ideal eyesight.

Apple could include way to alter the size of the menus and such like Windows does for the visually impaired, but they don't. You alter pretty much any text in Mail and you can use the latest WebKit builds to turn on Full Page Zoom (I did both for my mother's new 20" iMac) but there are apps like iCal and iPhoto that offer no option to make text or windows easier to see.

I set RI to x==2, and while it was great for most things, Dashboard data would increase by a factor of 2 but the windows for the Dashboard apps were still the same so it was a no go. The only option was to use a non-native app but that makes everything a little blurry.
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post #42 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I agree with you but I can also see Apple's viewpoint which is

"We're spending considerable resources to support a platform that should eventually diminish with each new refresh"

I thought creating UB apps would be easy but considering the growing amount of apps I see coming that are Intel only I think the facts are adding PPC support is more difficult and some developers are focsing on people with more recent Macs. It's not necessarily right or wrong but it is what it is.

I don't think that it the difficulty of creating UB apps. I thnk it is the expense and pain if doing QA on a second app which has a rapidly shrinking portion of the marketplace. A rapidly shrinking portion which has hardware that is not anywhere near as fast as current hardware.

That pair of issues makes for development headaches, because you either program to the speed of the lowest common user and forgo some nifty new potential features, or you make those features dog slow. Then you also need to do full testing against both architectures which takes a lot of resources too. Economically, is just doesn't make sense to make many spiffy new high-falutin' apps for users which have displayed reasons they don't want to spend on upgrades. Often they don't like spending for new software either. Those users with older HW have every right to sit comfortably where they are and expect a good 4-5 years of active OS development for their machines, but at some point that cuts off and then it's just maintenance/security updates.
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post #43 of 134
No way.

The tech press would kill Apple if they came out with a new OS in early 2009 that dropped support for carbon apps and PPC hardware. It would be like Vista all over again.

Oh what's that? You bought a new OS and now none of your apps work? What? You can't install it on the hardware that you bought three years ago? Come on! Apple has been publically making fun of Vista because of these type of shortcomings.

And what about all of the Apple apps that use carbon? The Finder, iTunes, Final Cut Pro/Express and the rest of the Pro apps? The two biggest Mac developers, Adobe and Microsoft, most of their software won't work: Photoshop, Acrobat, InDesign, Office, MSN Messenger, Flash, Dreamweaver, etc.

Plus releasing an OS that focuses purely on performance, stability and security is like Apple admiting that Leopard was a huge mess.

Look at Tiger and Panther - people on these forums complained like crazy about all the bugs. Apple released *eleven* point updates for Tiger, and *nine* for Panther. That's where you take care of performance, stability and security - point updates.

Is there really and good reason to just drop carbon support? Look at all the trouble Apple went through to keep Classic going despite declaring OS9 "dead" - it stayed in the OS until 10.4. They added Rosetta just so that PPC apps would work under Intel.
post #44 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Well answer me this if you can. I don't have the answer but perhaps others do.

Which Apple apps are 64 bit Cocoa apps? Is Apple ready to eat its own cooking here, provided the rumor IS accurate?

I don't think any are. Something tells me Leopard is close to offering a 64-bit system from Kernel to UI but there are probably "gotchas" here and there.

I think the scope of changes that Apple needs to make are beyond calling it 10.5.x

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro

I don't think that it the difficulty of creating UB apps. I thnk it is the expense and pain if doing QA on a second app which has a rapidly shrinking portion of the marketplace. A rapidly shrinking portion which has hardware that is not anywhere near as fast as current hardware.

Good point. Also if Apple charges say half the price for 10.6 but doesn't offer PPC support nor any real new whizzbang features the transgression could be excused for those that have been cut out.
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post #45 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I don't believe that 10.6 will be about just security and stability.

I see nothing wrong with Apple making substantive updates to various parts of
the OS. iCal could certainly use a UI makeover. I'd like Mail to improve in stability and featureset. Toss in Rez Ind and ZFS Read/Write support and polish the new API and you've got a worthy $70-80 upgrade for recent model Mac. PPC people could easily live on Leopard for another 16 months.

Doesn't anyone wonder why there are 19 TBA sessions for WWDC? THere's already alot of iPhone coverage listed. Methinks 10.6 and Apple's roadmap for Carbon/Cocoa, 32bit/64bit and PPC/Intel will be divulged.

Indeed.

*cough*llvm*cough*

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post #46 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by yama View Post

No way.

The tech press would kill Apple if they came out with a new OS in early 2009 that dropped support for carbon apps and PPC hardware. It would be like Vista all over again.

Oh what's that? You bought a new OS and now none of your apps work? What? You can't install it on the hardware that you bought three years ago? Come on! Apple has been publically making fun of Vista because of these type of shortcomings.

And what about all of the Apple apps that use carbon? The Finder, iTunes, Final Cut Pro/Express and the rest of the Pro apps? The two biggest Mac developers, Adobe and Microsoft, most of their software won't work: Photoshop, Acrobat, InDesign, Office, MSN Messenger, Flash, Dreamweaver, etc.

Plus releasing an OS that focuses purely on performance, stability and security is like Apple admiting that Leopard was a huge mess.

Look at Tiger and Panther - people on these forums complained like crazy about all the bugs. Apple released *eleven* point updates for Tiger, and *nine* for Panther. That's where you take care of performance, stability and security - point updates.

Is there really and good reason to just drop carbon support? Look at all the trouble Apple went through to keep Classic going despite declaring OS9 "dead" - it stayed in the OS until 10.4. They added Rosetta just so that PPC apps would work under Intel.

Which is why it won't add any new features over the currently shipping version of Leopard, and most likely won't cost $129. It's an optional OS for those with the latest 64-bit Intel hardware that doesn't provide any new features. This is a great move for Apple. It let's both Apple and 3rd party developers work on a version of the OS that is free from legacy issues while not alienating anyone.
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"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

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post #47 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple is indeed well into the development of Mac OS X 10.6, which the company has internally code-named "Snow Leopard," according to ArsTechnica.

Citing a person familiar with the situation, the technology website confirms several details of the next major Mac OS X upgrade first reported on Tuesday, including a scheduled release as soon as Macworld 2009 this coming January, and that it will not introduce any major new features.

Instead, Snow Leopard is said to focus heavily on performance optimization and security, a move that will in all likelihood widen the gap between Mac OS X and Microsoft's Windows Vista operating system in those areas.

"Things like the MacBook Air, iPhone, iPod touch, and other mysterious devices that have yet to be announced need better performance for better battery life, and that's definitely something Apple wants to excel at in the years to come," wrote Ars' Jacqui Cheng.

Unconfirmed is whether the software will be shown off or discussed at the company's annual developers conference next week. However, AppleInsider in recent weeks has been told to expect discussion of "another big cat" at the event.

Also unconfirmed, but somewhat likely, is that Apple will completely wrap Snow Leopard in its Cocoa application programming interface (API) set, meaning that applications written via the company's legacy Carbon API will fail to run on the new system.

Adding corroboration to an AppleInsider report published last September, Ars adds that Mac OS X 10.6 is expected to support only Intel-based Macs, leaving owners of PowerPC-based systems of yesteryear out in the cold.

Update: Ars updates its report saying: "There may be some disagreement here as to what exactly "Cocoa-only" means, so take that into account when thinking about this. For example, Apple may only axe Carbon UI stuff."

Great move!

For the Mac to break out of the mold it can't keep having to make it work on PPC as well.

It's like mom and dad forcing you take your little brother along with you everytime you walked out the door. Until he could handle his own, he was just a drag.

Anyway, I don't see any issues here. You have a choice to upgrade and most likely one wouldn't do it if there wasn't anything compelling to take advantage of it. Certainly, with Boot Camp, there is no reason that both X OS's couldn't or wouldn't be capable to run on the same machine.

And until Apple cuts the cord so to speak, we won't really see what the full power of OS X on an Intel Mac could be truly capable of.
post #48 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by yama View Post

No way.

The tech press would kill Apple if they came out with a new OS in early 2009 that dropped support for carbon apps and PPC hardware. It would be like Vista all over again.

Oh what's that? You bought a new OS and now none of your apps work? What? You can't install it on the hardware that you bought three years ago? Come on! Apple has been publically making fun of Vista because of these type of shortcomings.

And what about all of the Apple apps that use carbon? The Finder, iTunes, Final Cut Pro/Express and the rest of the Pro apps? The two biggest Mac developers, Adobe and Microsoft, most of their software won't work: Photoshop, Acrobat, InDesign, Office, MSN Messenger, Flash, Dreamweaver, etc.

Plus releasing an OS that focuses purely on performance, stability and security is like Apple admiting that Leopard was a huge mess.

Look at Tiger and Panther - people on these forums complained like crazy about all the bugs. Apple released *eleven* point updates for Tiger, and *nine* for Panther. That's where you take care of performance, stability and security - point updates.

Is there really and good reason to just drop carbon support? Look at all the trouble Apple went through to keep Classic going despite declaring OS9 "dead" - it stayed in the OS until 10.4. They added Rosetta just so that PPC apps would work under Intel.

How long are we supposed to give developers to move to Cocoa? Software can and should be updated. I'm not a big fan of hanging on too long to legacy apps. Microsoft routinely gets in trouble with the balance between supporting what today's people need and supporting yesterday's tools

If CS4 is Cocoa then problem solved. Apple surely is preparing their Pro apps for Cocoa as well. The reasons would likely involve the ability to get most developer on Cocoa which enables Apple to pour more resources into Cocoa to good effect. Carbon is for legacy apps and eventually legacy apps have to be modernized.

People complain about bugginess of Apple's OS but somehow fail to see the causal forces at work. Supporting Carbon and Cocoa just bifurcates the message and energy.
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post #49 of 134
If this is really turns out to be a speed/stability release and drops support for PowerPC and/or Carbon, then I predict that they will position 10.6 as a concurrent alternative to 10.5.

This would also play into the code names.

If you want legacy, PowerPC, Carbon app support -- Leopard.
If you want the latest, greatest, fastest, and you have an Intel Mac, and you don't care about Carbon apps -- Snow Leopard.

Both developed, same features. Snow Leopard development serves as basis for future OS developments (10.7+, or 11). Leopard is last PowerPC release, but it is maintainted well into the double digits (e.g., 10.5.10+) for at least another 2-3 years.

Leopard to Snow Leopard upgrade price would not be $129. Maybe $49 or $69 -- it'd be hard to market a big upgrade price for no new features.

Anyway, that's how I can see it playing out judging just from the Ars article
post #50 of 134
Snow Leopard is a cool cat and it would be weird if they used it later after leopard came out and it makes sense to use it right afterwards. I kind of like the idea of an OS mainly made for making everything run smooth and speedy, but at the same time, I love new applications and changes.

LOL I'm still using Tiger on a iBook G4. Time to upgrade...
post #51 of 134
I missed seeing where the article said 10.6 was gonna cost $129. Perhaps a bit presumptive to assume it'll be the same price as OS upgrades in the past. (The bad news: it will probably cost more -- the jet fuel's gone through the roof.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

who will pay $129 for no major new features and alot of now working older apps?

and no ppc or 32bit x86??

Apple better have a $800 - $2100 desktop system like they did back in the PPC days and the imacs screen is not good for photo work as well. The mini is over priced and weak.

also apple has good technology that makes Windows' 32/64bit support look bad so why dump it after one OS release?

education is also still a big user of PPC.
post #52 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

That's the best thing I've heard in years.

It's about time that Apple realised that it has to polish and optimise the Mac OS, rather than adding layers of useless eye-candy.

If this is indeed true, I'll be at the front of the line come 10.6's release...

I agree, but I wouldn't pay for it. There has to be more to it than that. There's no "real strong" marketing angle there. No, I don't buy it.

Snow Leopard? The snow is multi-touch integration. It's a sure sign their tablet is coming. Mark my words. Otherwise it wouldn't come this soon and it wouldn't have Leopard in it's name. The adding on of a word onto Leopard suggests some icing on the cake if you will, a new layer on top. That will likely be a touch sensitive layer.
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post #53 of 134
Good lord, Ireland, you're going to keep beating the tablet drum until one day you're right, aren't you? You're starting to sound like Dvorak re: Intel migration. "See! See! I was right!" Yeah, it only took a decade of being dead-wrong first...

We're marking your words, dear boy... oh yes, we are marking them.

(But I hope you're right. )
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post #54 of 134
Seriously! What gives with the name? Aren't there some cool cat names still remaining? So is this supposed to be a tribute to Siegfried and Roy?
How about a more pro sounding name.
How about some loving for dogs... Labradoodle v.10.7
post #55 of 134
I know that with leopard, everything was supposed to be unified gui wise, so why after 6 months are there still scroll bars from aqua in our interfaces...the only ones that changed, that i remember on the fly, are itunes and iPhoto...I want to see total unification of the user interface, different scroll bars looks kinda tacky. just my 2 cents. i think 10.6 without any visual upgrades or new programs would be a bad move an steves part. no one that doesn't completely love their mac would buy it.
post #56 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beardsley View Post

It's an optional OS for those with the latest 64-bit Intel hardware that doesn't provide any new features. This is a great move for Apple. It let's both Apple and 3rd party developers work on a version of the OS that is free from legacy issues while not alienating anyone.

Bingo. Hence the diverging bridges...
post #57 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by This Just In View Post

Bingo. Hence the diverging bridges...

I think the most obvious answer is the divergence in the SDK for Mac and iPhone/Touch platforms.
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post #58 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

Good lord, Ireland, you're going to keep beating the tablet drum until one day you're right, aren't you?

Yes. But ultimately it's Apple who's going to come round to my thinking
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post #59 of 134
Pervasive Multi-Touch for this Mac Tablet everyone inexplicably wants would be, at a guess, the major new feature.

MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.9
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MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.9
Black/Space Grey iPad Air with Wi-Fi & LTE | 128GB | On 4GEE
White iPhone 6 | 64GB | On 3UK

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post #60 of 134
Question: I have an Intel Core Duo MacBook Pro... I think it was the second update of the line... anyway, if it's a 32bit system, will I be able to run 10.6? Rumor is that 10.6 is 64bit native. Or will my MacBook Pro become an oversized paperweight?
post #61 of 134
Stability would be the best Mac OS X feature EVER!
Finder improvements too, such as scrollable Fan-view, less is better in Finders column view, multiple menu bars for multiple monitor setups (I hate to say this butsomething similar to XP will do).
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post #62 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by codymr View Post

Question: I have an Intel Core Duo MacBook Pro... I think it was the second update of the line... anyway, if it's a 32bit system, will I be able to run 10.6? Rumor is that 10.6 is 64bit native. Or will my MacBook Pro become an oversized paperweight?

Yes! When 10.6 comes out, and Apple sends out that Universal Kill Signal to disable 10.5 everywhere, your current computer will be rendered absolutely inoperative.
post #63 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

This is retarded. And most likely a scam by Apple to force adoption of Intel hardware on PowerPC users. First you control the software, then you prevent developers from developing for legacy operating systems. The squeeze is coming.

How unfortunate. This Quad G5 is more than capable of lasting through 2012, but Apple wants to give me the shaft. Fuck them.

Calm down, drama queen!

My seven-year-old iBook G3 is stuck at Tiger, but it does everything I need it to do. I use my four-and-a-half-year-old Dual G5 for the tough stuff.

But go look at this link from December of 2007:

http://www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2007/...december-2007/

It shows that your Quad G5 is behind the iMac, MacBook Pro and Mac Pro back then. I'd wager that by 2012, the current offerings from Apple will just spank the crap out of your machine by then.

Hell, the Mac mini of 2007 spanks the crap out of my PowerMac Dual 2GHz G5!

Also, there is nothing to say that you can't be productive on Leopard for many years to come. I'm always amazed at how OS upgrades are stretching further and further to make them compelling. Face it, probably the most compelling feature of Leopard is a "free" built-in SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner called Time Machine. (I realize they are not identical, but to most users, they do the same thing.)

I'm also finding that many app updates are rather trivial and that staying a few releases behind the latest and greatest doesn't significantly harm you.
post #64 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

If this is indeed true, I'll be at the front of the line come 10.6's release...

I don't think you'll need to be in front of any line. I'm pretty sure the upgrade is gonna be free via software update. This puppy is gonna be to 10.5 like 10.1 was to 10.0, good 'n free.
post #65 of 134
Anything with the name Snow Leopard, a year or so after a release named Leopard, I would guess it would be more of an "extension" to 10.5 . Maybe some more eye candy....3d effects....some more stock sounds, vids and pics.... just add ons, not a whole <s>rewrite</s> but somthing more like the january software update for the iTouch....


What do you think?
post #66 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

who will pay $129 for no major new features and alot of now working older apps?

you're assuming that it'll cost $129. The fact that they aren't even really changing the name (just adding "snow" to the front), makes it seem like a large update vs upgrade. You can't take away that many features (carbon, etc) w/o making it free...
post #67 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by techfreak85 View Post

Anything with the name Snow Leopard, a year or so after a release named Leopard, I would guess it would be more of an "extension" to 10.5 . Maybe some more eye candy....3d effects....some more stock sounds, vids and pics.... just add ons, not a whole <s>rewrite</s> but somthing more like the january software update for the iTouch....


What do you think?

ditto.
post #68 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Yes! When 10.6 comes out, and Apple sends out that Universal Kill Signal™ to disable 10.5 everywhere, your current computer will be rendered absolutely inoperative.

My point is: Will a native 64bit OSX 10.6 run on a 32bit Intel Mac? Or will I have to update to a new system if I want to take advantage of the rumoured 10.6 security and optimization updates. Seems a little soon to buy a new computer when my current runs very well with 10.5.3.
post #69 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Adobe has already stated that CS4 will be cocoa, not carbon.
They note this as they wanted to get on the 64bit bandwagon, but they couldn't because Apple decided, around 2 years ago, to drop their effort of trying to port Carbon to 64 bit.

This forced CS3 to stay only carbon.
CS4 was stated to be moved to Cocoa.

MS Office? I don't want it is Apple can find a way to convince me that iWork can stand up against it.

I love iWork, but does Pages save in .doc or .docx files? If so, I am all for it!

I think you''re mixed up here.

CS4 is carbon, it was too far along in development before apple said that carbon wouldn't be 64 bit. CS5 will be cocoa.

And mid 2006, Apple was still telling developers that carbon would be updated to 64 bit. They didn't announce that they changed their mind until mid 2007, only about a year ago. MANY devs had to delay 64 bit updates because of this.

The thing that makes me most skeptical is that APPLE has few if any apps updated to cocoa, much less 64 bit. Does anyone here think they could have all their pro apps rewritten by January?
post #70 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by federmoose View Post

ditto.

Well thank u. it seems no one ever agrees with me any more
post #71 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by codymr View Post

My point is: Will a native 64bit OSX 10.6 run on a 32bit Intel Mac? Or will I have to update to a new system if I want to take advantage of the rumoured 10.6 security and optimization updates. Seems a little soon to buy a new computer when my current runs very well with 10.5.3.

Sorry if I came off a little snarky on that--it's just that so many people seem to think that when a new upgrade to anything comes out that the hardware or software they've got will miraculously stop working. In answer to your question: my guess is--no.
post #72 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


The thing that makes me most skeptical is that APPLE has few if any apps updated to cocoa, much less 64 bit. Does anyone here think they could have all their pro apps rewritten by January?

I think Apple will have Final Cut Studio in Cocoa for next year and iTunes 8 will likely be Cocoa as well.

I'd assume as well that Xcode 3.5 of whatever they call it will have vast improvements to help developers move Carbon apps to Cocoa.
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post #73 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

...Does anyone here think they [Apple] could have all their pro apps rewritten by January?

I REALLY doubt that. Unless Apple has been actively recoding from scratch, and without widespread beta testing, which will ultimately result in mega bugs.
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post #74 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

It's going to take a lot of selling to get customers to buy into a feature that promises to look worse and take a lot more processing power at the same time. I honestly don't understand the hankering for this feature. Unless you have 200dpi displays or like to look at things reeeeally up close it doesn't buy you anything, and just makes stuff less than pixel-perfect.

What I want is a 200-300 dpi monitor. However, Resolution Independence is required to have icons, windows, etc. at a useable size.
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post #75 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I think Apple will have Final Cut Studio in Cocoa for next year and iTunes 8 will likely be Cocoa as well.

I'd assume as well that Xcode 3.5 of whatever they call it will have vast improvements to help developers move Carbon apps to Cocoa.

Yeah, like removing the Carbon headers. *THAT'LL* get them moved over pretty damned quick...
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post #76 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

It's a sure sign their tablet is coming. Mark my words...

Will that be before or after the Apple-brand TV that you predicted a couple of years ago?

post #77 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Will that be before or after the Apple-brand TV that you predicted a couple of years ago?

Before.

And I predicted the TV a couple of years ago, but I didn't say 2006 did I?
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post #78 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

After.

So we can look forward to playing Daikatana 2 on it then?

(HA! Quoted before edit. )
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post #79 of 134
In all likelihood I think this is basically a full blown leopard with multitouch for a UMPC. Like an iPhone but bigger screen, no phone, and full blown OSX. It would make sense then that the codename is still the same animal and mostly the same features. This computer will feature Intel's atom processor. Its one step above smartphones, but one step below macbook air.

Focusing on security updates and such are just things said to distract people from what Apple is really going for.

If you piece together all the rumors, this really does add up IMO. Take for example the rumors going around about the newton style tablet with a bigger multitouch screen than iPhone.

The timing is also perfect with SSD drives and flash getting big enough and cheap enough to put one in a future apple atom based UMPC. And isn't it funny that Apple starts offering an SSD option in the Macbook air? Its almost as if they are testing out this type of drive in the market and to get a little experience with it on a full blown OSX computer. There have always been rumors about intel and apple collaborating to make a new device based on atom. I don't think the upcoming "iPhone 2" is it.

Oh and that it will drop PPC - of course, if it is designed to run on Intel's atom.

Think Sharp Willcom D4, only multitouch. (google it).

-Ken
post #80 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

So we can look forward to playing Daikatana 2 on it then?

(HA! Quoted before edit. )

Yes I meant to say before, but typed after first - though 2008 isn't over yet! So the tablet could come after the TV's. Though I wouldn't bet on it.

So what if I get the dates a little wrong, and at least I'm willing to form opinions and have some kind of vision on these matters.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=70110

When both of these things happen the game will be changed forever, which is why I'm passionate about it. I can handle all the criticism you guys throw at me about my opinions, but Apple will make a tablet with a screen size around 10", and they will make TV's. Both these things will happen.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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