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3G iPhone's firmware purportedly leaked, hints at assisted GPS

post #1 of 102
Thread Starter 
A late leak has allegedly revealed the inner workings of the next-generation iPhone's cellular chipset, down to its specific parts and most of its capabilities.

A source described as "reliable" handing information to Engadget appears to have confirmed several details, many of which reflect expectations set out by previous leaks.

In particular, the escaped data points to the use of the Infineon S-GOLD3 baseband chip spotted in beta firmware, which connects the device both to UMTS-based 3G networks that operate primarily in Europe as well as the newer, faster HSDPA networks present in North America, Europe, and many other parts of the world.

A trio of chips made by Skyworks -- the 77413, 77414, and 77427 -- address the phone's communications with specific 3G frequencies currently used around the globe, including the 850MHz band used in the US by AT&T as well as the 1900MHz and 2100MHz bands for other territories.

More significant, however, is the Global Locate Library software that abstracts assisted GPS commands.

The feature should allow the new iPhone to locate its position far more accurately than current solutions and is meant to interface with a Global Locate chip -- since branded as a Broadcom product -- built into a phone. Besides appearing to confirm the choice of Broadcom for built-in GPS, it also supports the addition of location-specific features added in test versions of iPhone 2.0 firmware, such as geo-tagging photos taken from the phone's built-in camera.

Supporting claims of authenticity, the purported source also alludes to an ARM 1176JZF-S processor identical to that in the original iPhone as well as a new internal build model number which is consistent with an earlier naming scheme.
post #2 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

No mention is made of WCDMA, though the protocol is believed necessary for the SoftBank release in Japan.

You may want to edit your post before AI's quality control gets put into question.

Here are the PDFs from Skywork's website. They clearly state WCDMA/HSDPA

SKY77427 (pdf) for Tx 1900 / Rx 2100 (UMTS-FDD Operating Band I)
SKY77414 (pdf) for Tx/Rx 1900 (UMTS-FDD Operating Band II)
SKY77413 (pdf) for Tx/Rx 850 (UMTS-FDD Operating Band V) And this chart is also very stateful: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3...smtrackdk8.png

Tri-band, which is what was expected, would work on the following networks:

• 2100 (down) / 1900 (up) for Europe and Asia (usually referred simply as W-CDMA 2100)
• 1900 (up/down)/ 850 (up/down) for America (AT&T, Rogers)
• 850 (up/down) for Australia (Telstra NextG)

This encompasses every country that Apple has partnered with. This does not, however allow for a 3G iPhone to function on T-Mobile USA. So all you with unlocked EDGE iPhones on T-Mobile have to jump to AT&T if you want to use 3G.

• 2100 (down) / 1700 (up) for America (T-Mobile)

It would have to be a quad-band chip to allow T-Mobile to function, but since they didn't get their spectrum that long ago and have no real 3G network it's a moot point.

The GSM part is the standard quad-band for the 850/900/1800/1900 bands.


PS: Anyone here able to estimate how much extra juice each of those bands will use when using internet over UTMS, based on the power usage listed in the supplied PDFs above?
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post #3 of 102
Geez, you're not wrong about quality control, Solipism. AI should stay away from the technicalities:

3G = UMTS = WCDMA and HSDPA is used in Europe and most other places, not just in America see here for details - http://www.3gamericas.org/pdfs/Globa...tus_Update.pdf

The way the post reads it just makes AI sound totally clueless.
post #4 of 102
Damn, I was going to remove the intro to my post if the article was changed before another posted about it. Oh well.


The PDF you supplied is interesting. I was wondering why the HW for the iPhone doesn't list HSUPA anywhere, but according to that PDF there are very few carriers with HSUPA active. And all but one, I think, is under a year old with most of them well under 6 months. Japan doesn't/didn't even have it with NTT DoCoMo until this month.
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post #5 of 102
Did you not want to be rude, Solipsism? Why not, I really enjoy it. Anyway, might as well call a spade a spade. Maybe a little abuse will make them change their ways.

AI's pretty good with the rumours, but their analysis is really poor. They should get someone technical on staff or just report the news. Their reviews are pretty bad as well.
post #6 of 102
Well, at least they're not this guy. (Thanks to Gruber)

Writing for CNN Money, he opines:

Quote:
Just how will Apple meet expectations? Using the patent application as a guide, Apple appears to be making room on the iPhone for flash memory, which means an end to Apple's standoff with Adobe (ADBE) that's kept iPhones from easily viewing a plethora of Internet videos.

Yes, it's true, you're not hallucinating, someone claiming expertise in scoping out Apple's plans by pouring over patent filings doesn't know the difference between Flash the software and flash memory chips. And confuses the two in such a way as to reach a hilariously wrong conclusion. In print. So we can see it.

Bet his nickname over at CNN is "flash" right about now, and will be for all time.

So take heart, Apple Insider!
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post #7 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Well, at least they're not this guy. (Thanks to Gruber)

Writing for CNN Money, he opines:



Yes, it's true, you're not hallucinating, someone claiming expertise in scoping out Apple's plans by pouring over patent filings doesn't know the difference between Flash the software and flash memory chips. And confuses the two in such a way as to reach a hilariously wrong conclusion. In print. So we can see it.

Bet his nickname over at CNN is "flash" right about now, and will be for all time.

So take heart, Apple Insider!

That, my friends, is what we call an Epic Fail.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #8 of 102
Yeah good to see that AI have not quite sunk to the bottom yet.

On that subject, I think this whole 'stand-off' idea is BS. The bottom line is that the performance of flash video is going to be crap on the iPhone because of a lack of hardware acceleration, so it's going to gobble up juice and give the user a poor experience. Apple is rightly trying to avoid this. I'm sure they'd love flash video on their machines.
post #9 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Did you not want to be rude, Solipsism? Why not, I really enjoy it. Anyway, might as well call a spade a spade. Maybe a little abuse will make them change their ways.

It's the weekend, it's probably the middle of the night that it was for whomever typed it up. Maybe they were throwing a few back or were sleeping when woken up by Kasper to get it written. I like to be lenient between my asshole moments it keeps the Gods guessing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Yes, it's true, you're not hallucinating, someone claiming expertise in scoping out Apple's plans by pouring over patent filings doesn't know the difference between Flash the software and flash memory chips. And confuses the two in such a way as to reach a hilariously wrong conclusion. In print. So we can see it.!

I hope he usually doesn't write about the progress of tech companies. Perhaps their middle school nerd that writes their tech articles was probably at programming camp all week and so he had to step in.

I wonder if the patent mentioned WCDMA which is why it was addressed in the CNN article as a possibility for the iPhone as I don't recall anything in that patent filing that alluded to anything like that.
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post #10 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Damn, I was going to remove the intro to my post if the article was changed before another posted about it. Oh well.


The PDF you supplied is interesting. I was wondering why the HW for the iPhone doesn't list HSUPA anywhere, but according to that PDF there are very few carriers with HSUPA active. And all but one, I think, is under a year old with most of them well under 6 months. Japan doesn't/didn't even have it with NTT DoCoMo until this month.

I think there a couple of points to be made about HSUPA:

- it's not been through the design process and made efficient and effective. Getting things into small phones and making them actually work is not really very easy. The engineers generally have to have a couple of goes at it before they get it right. Saying that the iPhone chipset is 'upgradable' to HSUPA is one thing, getting to work well is another.

- it's going to suck juice really badly. Keep in mind that when you are downloading you can have the base station (cell tower) do a lot of processing (encoding) at no cost to the handset. Uploading means that the work is done on the handset and also the signal has to improve if the base station is going to receive it at a reasonable rate.

- where is the market demand for fast uploads? Who really needs it badly, today? Most people send some emails, maybe with attachments, but are they going to really notice how long it takes for an email to be sent? Is 384K good enough for most people? More is better, but if slays your battery you're not going to be very happy.

It's interesting to note that Nokia have not released a HSUPA phone, and they are considered to have some of the best RF and analog engineers around, and that;s where most of the difficulties will lie. If they can't pull it off, chances are almost no-one can, or would want to.
post #11 of 102
The article is incorrect.

Assisted GPS still requires a GPS receiver in the handset. It still requires the satellites to be in the sky. However it improves GPS performance such that it can be used in urban canyons.

Assisted GPS downloads the ephemeris and almanac data over the internet instead of over the satellites, making positioning much quicker. The handsets internet connection (up to 7200000bps) is much faster downloading this information than the 50bps GPS signal.

Assisted GPS can thus get a fix in less than 5 seconds.
post #12 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

3G iPhone's firmware purportedly leaked, hints at *SNIP*

AI, there is no excuse for all the crap information in this post. I am not an engineer, nor do I understand the complexities of RF engineering or telecommunications, but It really isn't difficult to do basic research and keep up with the meaning of different technologies. I mean to not know W-CDMA is the air interface to UMTS after 12 months of 3G iphone speculation? For god sakes...

And after all the corrections, you still imply that North America is the pinnacle of HSDPA networks, and Europe is in the dark ages of plain UMTS. This couldn't be further from the truth. Most of western europe has HSDPA deployed. Please fix that error in the article.
post #13 of 102
Seeing as how the Americas will use the 850 and 1900 Bands, and Europe, Oceania, Asia and Africa will use the 2100 Band, is it possible to turn to off the unneeded chip or chips? Are they designed to be always be ready to activate? Would it not be beneficial to turn it/them off if you weren't going to use them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._UMTS_networks
(Yes, I know there is an on/off switch for 3G. I am not talking about that, I'm talking about turning off the one or two radios that you will not be using if you are to stay segregated to the continents as listed above)

PS: This would have been so much easier had the Americas got on board with 2100 (band I). Was it being used by something else?
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post #14 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

AI, there is no excuse for all the crap information in this post. I am not an engineer, nor do I understand the complexities of RF engineering or telecommunications, but It really isn't difficult to do basic research and keep up with the meaning of different technologies. I mean to not know W-CDMA is the air interface to UMTS after 12 months of 3G iphone speculation? For god sakes...

And after all the corrections, you still imply that North America is the pinnacle of HSDPA networks, and Europe is in the dark ages of plain UMTS. This couldn't be further from the truth. Most of western europe has HSDPA deployed. Please fix that error in the article.

Why so serious, Mr Cranky? So what if some Spotty Herbert at AI can't tell an HSDMA-arse from a CDMA-elbow? At least they're up-to-date and reasonably reliable in the gist of their reports.

The misuse of 'purportedly', on the other hand, is a bit of a worry.

Enz
post #15 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Well, at least they're not this guy. (Thanks to Gruber)

Writing for CNN Money, he opines:
Quote:
Just how will Apple meet expectations? Using the patent application as a guide, Apple appears to be making room on the iPhone for flash memory, which means an end to Apple's standoff with Adobe (ADBE) that's kept iPhones from easily viewing a plethora of Internet videos.



Yes, it's true, you're not hallucinating, someone claiming expertise in scoping out Apple's plans by pouring over patent filings doesn't know the difference between Flash the software and flash memory chips. And confuses the two in such a way as to reach a hilariously wrong conclusion. In print. So we can see it.

Bet his nickname over at CNN is "flash" right about now, and will be for all time.

So take heart, Apple Insider!

wow.. just WOW!!!

I laughed, then tears came, now my face hurts. thats just, BEYOND words!
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

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post #16 of 102
You can't use a current iphone on a 3g network right? Can edge get any faster? It's not bad, at least not as slow as people have said. So long as you're patient it works on most sites.
post #17 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Well, at least they're not this guy. (Thanks to Gruber)

Writing for CNN Money, he opines:



Yes, it's true, you're not hallucinating, someone claiming expertise in scoping out Apple's plans by pouring over patent filings doesn't know the difference between Flash the software and flash memory chips. And confuses the two in such a way as to reach a hilariously wrong conclusion. In print. So we can see it.

Bet his nickname over at CNN is "flash" right about now, and will be for all time.

So take heart, Apple Insider!

I think my father might have written that. The other day he asked me if he should switch from Yahoo! to Firefox.
post #18 of 102
I wonder if the true nature of apple's plans was inadvertently shown in Apple's
"homage" the postal service's video Such Great Heights.


Apple, in their commerical used the Intel Chip insted of The Postal Service's original chipset made by skyworks.

http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/?p=647

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?vid...Nc2nWaIFr77kYJ

The chipset on the right was from Skyworks.....

Imagine the possibilities....
post #19 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by imacFP View Post

You can't use a current iphone on a 3g network right? Can edge get any faster? It's not bad, at least not as slow as people have said. So long as you're patient it works on most sites.

No you can't. EDGE in Denmark (large cities like Copenhagen) the speeds range from 400-600 Kbps, while HSPDA is 7.2 mbit (rumored 3G iPhone), soon up to 20 MBit (which the new iPhone doesn't support)
post #20 of 102
GPS? Someone please tell me why GPS is so important for anyone to have? I always know where I am don't you?
post #21 of 102
i am wondering if a-gps includes real (satellite-based) gps?!

i am really keen on using the 3g iphone as a navigation device in my car.

and i would like to used it for free (like normal gps) and not pay an extra fee for having to be data-connected to your cellphone gsm/3g provider.

i am wondering if there will be any normal navigation software like tomtom or so for the 3g iphone. i dont quite know how a-gps works and if there is a slight chance that 3g-iphone ONLY has a-gps and NO real gps. ;-( (wikipedia doesnt help there, really...)

what i mean is: what happens with a-gps if there is really no telephony-signal (GSM or umts or whatever) and you want to navigate / locate?! there must be a fallback for something that is satellite-based...
post #22 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Seeing as how the Americas will use the 850 and 1900 Bands, and Europe, Oceania, Asia and Africa will use the 2100 Band, is it possible to turn to off the unneeded chip or chips? Are they designed to be always be ready to activate? Would it not be beneficial to turn it/them off if you weren't going to use them?

Assuming the power savings were meaningful, this makes a lot of sense. If such selective component activation were indeed possible, it should then be entirely automated. Any phone with GPS should know where it is, and thus also know which bands were active/required in the vicinity.

(The exception would be a cold boot, or any time the signal is lost, in which case the handset would activate enough radio hardware to get a fix, and then tune itself down to the appropriate local bands.)
post #23 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

GPS? Someone please tell me why GPS is so important for anyone to have? I always know where I am don't you?

It doesn't sound like you explore much. Try traveling the back roads in western US (for example) away from metropolitan areas. Even with a Delorme map it's possible to get lost in the middle of nowhere, and these days its cheaper to get a GPS fix than spend the gas on back-tracking.
post #24 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_brown View Post

i am wondering if a-gps includes real gps?!
i am really keen on using the 3g iphone as a navigation device in my car. with no service charge/fee when i'm using the navigation...

and i wanna make sure that after you once bought a navigation software with maps, your navigation system will cost you nothing more and will stay for free. thats the main issue i bear in mind when i'm asking about a-gps and the normal gps receiver...

Last year during the run-up to the iPhone I wanted to get a GPS device for navigation. I also liked the principal of One Device To Rule Them All. When it was determined that the V1.0 iPhone didn't have GPS hardware, we bought a Garmin instead. In retrospect, this was a good decision (for us) for a number of reasons:

1) While the interface is nowhere as elegant as anything the iPhone would support, the Garmin (or any other dedicated navigation device) currently provides turn-by-turn directions, and damn good ones at that. Google Maps won't announce the upcoming off-ramp or whatever with the same degree of local precision, if at all.

2) A dedicated GPS can afford a better,larger antenna, which is important in 'canyon' areas. While this may be offset by a mobile phone's A-GPS capabilities, there can be areas where bigger (signal reception) is better.

3) If you have your iPhone mounted in a place where it can be seen properly and the cable is attached, what happens when you get a call? If you're relying on it in a quick-decision navigation situation (rush-hour traffic in the middle of road construction), the distraction of an incoming call could be horrible.

4) Comprehensive map data for turn-by-turn navigation is huge (multiple GBs). If you really want an autonomous device you're going to have to carry that around at all times. Google Maps downloads only what's needed for the situation at hand, but if you're off the net that resource is lost.

There are other reasons why a dedicated GPS device is better, but everyone's needs are different so for casual use a smart phone may be all that's needed. But I think we are still a few years away from the all-in-one device that addresses all of these needs without too much of a compromise. IMO, the best of all worlds would be if cars included a dedicated display and GPS receiver, but synced all the navigation duties with the driver's smart device (iPhone) that handled the user-specific data management such as address book, POI files, etc.
post #25 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

It doesn't sound like you explore much. Try traveling the back roads in western US (for example) away from metropolitan areas. Even with a Delorme map it's possible to get lost in the middle of nowhere, and these days its cheaper to get a GPS fix than spend the gas on back-tracking.

yeah because REAL exploring is done in the car.
post #26 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_brown View Post

i am wondering if a-gps includes real (satellite-based) gps?!

i dont quite know how a-gps works and if there is a slight chance that 3g-iphone ONLY has a-gps and NO real gps.

what i mean is: what happens with a-gps if there is really no telephony-signal (GSM or umts or whatever) and you want to navigate / locate?

A-GPS is real GPS plus extra Internet based features that enable a quick fix. There are so many errors in this article that it is laughable, as others have pointed out!

In my old Nokia N95, it takes 3-5 minutes to get a fix without the Internet (GPS alone). It takes 5-7 seconds with data active.

A-GPS downloads [Ephemeris and Almanac] information form the internet that is also broadcast via the satellites. The GPS satellites transmit at 50 bits per second which is SLOW. You need at least some of this information before you can use the GPS signals to get a position. Downloading from the internet is instant and a fix can then be obtained from the satellites in as little as 2 seconds (in the case of the Freescale Global Locate that has been rumored to be in the firmware)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Seeing as how the Americas will use the 850 and 1900 Bands, and Europe, Oceania, Asia and Africa will use the 2100 Band, is it possible to turn to off the unneeded chip or chips? Are they designed to be always be ready to activate?[/INDENT]
There is no power wastage in the way you are thinking of in a multiband phone. The old iPhone is a quadband phone.

Even when switching bands mid call (This will already happen on today's iPhone) the phone is only transmitting the required data over the correct band and only listens to the correct band.

GSM/UMTS is not haphazard in its use of radio hardware!

(Yes, I know there is an on/off switch for 3G. I am not talking about that, I'm talking about turning off the one or two radios that you will not be using if you are to stay segregated to the continents as listed above)

PS: This would have been so much easier had the Americas got on board with 2100 (band I). Was it being used by something else?

I need an off switch for 2G, as my provider charges extraordinary rates if you happen to use the EDGE network instead of the practically free HSDPA data!!

At that stage the 1900/2100 pairing most commonly used globally for UMTS was already in use. Similarly GSM's 900/1800MHz was in use so the US uses 850/1900.
post #27 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

yeah because REAL exploring is done in the car.

No, REAL exploring is done in the basement with a keyboard.

WTF - do you prejudge everyone like this?
post #28 of 102
I had no idea what A-GPS was, so I Googled.

Here is Wikipedia's description:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS

According to this wiki, some A-GPS devices require a cell connection to function. Based on the leaked specs, will the 3G iPhone's GPS continue to function, albeit more slowly, without a cell tower connection?
post #29 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

No, REAL exploring is done in the basement with a keyboard.

WTF - do you prejudge everyone like this?

No but sounds like you do.
post #30 of 102
thanks, dlux and retroneo for pointing that out.

now i've got a better understanding of how navigation would look like on the 3g-iphone. the question about "what if there's an incoming call right when you're driving?" is very crucial, indeed.
post #31 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

I think my father might have written that. The other day he asked me if he should switch from Yahoo! to Firefox.

LMAO!!!

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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GOA

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post #32 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

yeah because REAL exploring is done in the car.

No need to get your panties in a bunch.
post #33 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Well, at least they're not this guy. (Thanks to Gruber)

Writing for CNN Money, he opines:



Yes, it's true, you're not hallucinating, someone claiming expertise in scoping out Apple's plans by pouring over patent filings doesn't know the difference between Flash the software and flash memory chips. And confuses the two in such a way as to reach a hilariously wrong conclusion. In print. So we can see it.

Bet his nickname over at CNN is "flash" right about now, and will be for all time.

So take heart, Apple Insider!





It is an epidemic.
see http://www.macdailynews.com/index.ph...ile_on_iphone/
post #34 of 102
no evidence of A2DP in the firmware?
post #35 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This encompasses every country that Apple has partnered with. This does not, however allow for a 3G iPhone to function on T-Mobile USA. So all you with unlocked EDGE iPhones on T-Mobile have to jump to AT&T if you want to use 3G.

2100 (down) / 1700 (up) for America (T-Mobile)

It would have to be a quad-band chip to allow T-Mobile to function, but since they didn't get their spectrum that long ago and have no real 3G network it's a moot point.

The GSM part is the standard quad-band for the 850/900/1800/1900 bands.

I thought T-Mobile used AT&T's network?

Their 3G rollout time frame matches AT&T's also.
post #36 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

no evidence of A2DP in the firmware?

So far, there is no evidence for or against the addition of A2DP. Which, in this case, leans away from an imminent inclusion.
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post #37 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

I thought T-Mobile used AT&T's network?

Their 3G rollout time frame matches AT&T's also.

Sadly, that isn't the case. They share the same GSM frequency bands as AT&T and others, but not UMTS.

It's really confusing stuff. Anyone of these links should help clarify things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#North_America *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_fr...nds_deployment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_band#3G * The AWS listed in the first link for T-Mobile USA means Advanced Wireless Services. It has replaced the MMDS spectrum in the US for available data allocation, which is why T-Mobile had to purchase that function spectrum band. I'm guessing they were running out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Wireless_Services
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post #38 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So far, there is no evidence for or against the addition of A2DP. Which, in this case, leans away from an imminent inclusion.

Apple gets paid a lot of money for "ipod/iphone certified" accessories like docks.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...y/4229530.html

If you want digital output out of ipod dock, you need to pay Apple money licensing fees to get access to the ipod's authentication chip.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/010408wadia/
post #39 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

I think my father might have written that. The other day he asked me if he should switch from Yahoo! to Firefox.

Hmm, aren't foxes sly and sneaky? Be careful before you make that switch.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #40 of 102
has fcc approval come through? all these rumors about boxes being received by resellers (albeit non-us) - i'm assuming vendors in US wouldn't be receiving boxes if fcc approval has not been issued?
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