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post #161 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

While it seems it unfathomable to me that Nokia would fail at optimizing GSM, we don't have any way of testing this until we can get some battery stats.

Either way, it looks like you and Blütnerd are about to go toe to toe in an assumptive argument that will yield no results. Anyone here no how to break down battery stats into real world figures? I don't have a clue!



I go under hot sleep with Somec between keynotes. It's only been 2 weeks for since the Motorola StarTAC came out. (I'll be suprised if anyone gets that without googling it)

As we do in medicine. Double-blind tral conducted at the same time. Perhaps using, as Apple does outline better than most, if not the best, other companies, the protocol as outlined on the iPhone Tech Specs, e.g.,


Talk time: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2008 using preproduction iPhone 3G units and software. iPhone 3G units were connected to a 1900MHz network or a 2100MHz network. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks was turned off. Wi-Fi was enabled but not associated with a network. Battery life depends on the mobile network, location, signal strength, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary.

Standby time: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2008 using preproduction iPhone 3G units and software. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks was turned off. Wi-Fi was enabled but not associated with a network. Battery life depends on the mobile network, location, signal strength, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary.

Internet use over 3G: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2008 using preproduction iPhone 3G units and software. Internet over 3G tests were conducted over a 1900MHz 3G network using dedicated web and mail servers, browsing snapshot versions of 20 popular web pages, and receiving mail once an hour. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks and Auto-Brightness were turned off. Wi-Fi was enabled but not associated with a network. Battery life depends on the mobile network, location, signal strength, 3G connectivity, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary.

Internet use over Wi-Fi: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2008 using preproduction iPhone 3G units and software. Internet over Wi-Fi tests were conducted using a closed network and dedicated web and mail servers, browsing snapshot versions of 20 popular web pages, and receiving mail once an hour. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks and Auto-Brightness were turned off; WPA2 encryption was enabled. Battery life depends on the mobile network, location, signal strength, Wi-Fi connectivity, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary.
http://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/specs.html
post #162 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I

....

Apple will know where I am. Not a fan of this. Of course I can simply not use the application but I do not buy the complete battery life argument. There will be hits but to report to Apple is a bit disconcerting.

Just my 2 cents.

Anybody with a cell phone can be tracked by the provider.
post #163 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingDifferent View Post

Anybody with a cell phone can be tracked by the provider.

And then there is CC use, ATM use, every time you log into an IM client or access email. Even email recipients can figure out your location with the embedded IP address. Apple is the last organization I'm worried about.
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post #164 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingDifferent View Post

Anybody with a cell phone can be tracked by the provider.

Right. It is the law.

E(nhanced) 911 is a program mandated by the U. S. FCC (Federal Communications Commission). It requires the location of any cell phone used to call 911 can be determined to within 50 to 100 meters. The law takes effect at the start of 2005. That means cell phone manufacturers need to incorporate a GPS receiver in virtually every cell phone.
post #165 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I think the iPhone sales accounting model (subscription accounting) was based upon the
continuing shared revenue from AT&T. If there is truly no more revenue sharing, I
am not convinced Apple would continue the same accounting model for sales of the
3G iPhones. Therefore, I am not certain future iPhone OS updates would be free.

The subscription accounting model has nothing to do with the revenue sharing. It just has to do with how Apple records their money.
post #166 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

While it seems it unfathomable to me that Nokia would fail at optimizing GSM, we don't have any way of testing this until we can get some battery stats.

Either way, it looks like you and Blütnerd are about to go toe to toe in an assumptive argument that will yield no results. Anyone here no how to break down battery stats into real world figures? I don't have a clue!

I go under hot sleep with Somec between keynotes. It's only been 2 weeks for me since the Motorola StarTAC came out. (I'll be suprised if anyone gets that without googling it)

You're not the old person here, and I get your references.

As far as figures go, logic is more powerful and my weapon of choice. We have to trust the figures they give because we have no choice. Unless there is some reviewers who do a decent job of measuring the times, but I doubt it.

The ratio between the two generations is quite good I think. If they fudge the battery numbers chances are they are fudging both about equally. Can you give me a rational explanation of why the ratios would be meaningless? Saying all is unknowable isn't helpful.
post #167 of 288
This is a huge step forward for the iPhone a hardware basis. But, there are still some software problems that need to be addresses, such as: MMS, copy and paste, video recording, audio recording and voice dialing. I would not be surprised that when the iPhone 2.0 software is released, Apple will go: "SURPRISE!!!! New features that we didn't talk about @ WWDC!" The voice dialing is a must, because so many states are passing hands-free laws. The others are just logical. I can't wait until July... so many great things to come!
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post #168 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

As we do in medicine. Double-blind tral conducted at the same time.

Hmm. What would you use as the placebo?
post #169 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Hmm. What would you use as the placebo?

A Blackberry!
post #170 of 288
Bold as this prediction is, I think we will be seeing unlocked phones being sold by Apple in many if not most countries. Maybe not in the US because people seem to accept this, but definitely in other countries because people do not.

This is in light of the news that Apple will not be selling phones without activation.
post #171 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

A Blackberry!

Touché!
post #172 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone91 View Post

This is a huge step forward for the iPhone a hardware basis. But, there are still some software problems that need to be addresses, such as: MMS, copy and paste, video recording, audio recording and voice dialing. I would not be surprised that when the iPhone 2.0 software is released, Apple will go: "SURPRISE!!!! New features that we didn't talk about @ WWDC!" The voice dialing is a must, because so many states are passing hands-free laws. The others are just logical. I can't wait until July... so many great things to come!

Three of the 5 items you mention (MMS, video recording and audio recording) can be handled by 3rd-parties if Apple doesn't step up to the plate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

A Blackberry!




Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Bold as this prediction is, I think we will be seeing unlocked phones being sold by Apple in many if not most countries. Maybe not in the US because people seem to accept this, but definitely in other countries because people do not.

I'm still running over the dynamics of the in-store activation, but AT&T has little to fear from a locked iPhone. T-Mobile has an incompatible UTMS network and Sprint and Verizon are EV-DO. I guess they fear that people may take this new low price iPhone to T-Mobile to use on their EDGE network, but 3G would appear to be more important than carrier loyalty for most people.
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post #173 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Right. It is the law.

E(nhanced) 911 is a program mandated by the U. S. FCC (Federal Communications Commission). It requires the location of any cell phone used to call 911 can be determined to within 50 to 100 meters. The law takes effect at the start of 2005. That means cell phone manufacturers need to incorporate a GPS receiver in virtually every cell phone.

E911 doesn't require GPS. Compliance only needed cell tower triangulation to get that level accuracy, however, GPS is a good way to comply.
post #174 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Three of the 5 items you mention (MMS, video recording and audio recording) can be handled by 3rd-parties if Apple doesn't step up to the plate.

I'm still running over the dynamics of the in-store activation, but AT&T has little to fear from a locked iPhone. T-Mobile has an incompatible UTMS network and Sprint and Verizon are EV-DO. I guess they fear that people may take this new low price iPhone to T-Mobile to use on their EDGE network, but 3G would appear to be more important than carrier loyalty for most people.

Not sure if 3rd parties can do all those things, you might not be able to install software (actually very likely not) that has access to the raw hardware, as would be needed for video recording.

As usually, I'll take the global view and say that no phone company worldwide has anything to fear from unlocking. You've got their money, all the better if they go to another carrier, they still have to pay out their contract, its a plus if they're not using their minutes.

Also it's not like you;re afraid they will go to the competitors, they sell iPhones too! Of course in the US and other places where there is exclusive contracts it might be a different issue. There is also the chance that Apple mandates locking to ensure exclusivity in those countries. That would be bad business though because people hate locked phones.
post #175 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Anyone here no how to break down battery stats into real world figures? I don't have a clue!

Here's my system: On any device, I cut the claimed battery life in half just on principle. Then I figure I'm going to be in the lower tail of the distribution, so I cut it to about two thirds of that amended figure. I'm usually pretty close.

On the other hand, I notice that if anybody gets three-quarters of one of Apple's "up to ___ hours" figures, it seems to be the crime of the century!
post #176 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

There is also the chance that Apple mandates locking to ensure exclusivity in those countries. That would be bad business though because people hate locked phones.

Not sure if things haven't changed. As Apple describes the iPhone:

In the box
  • iPhone 3G
  • Stereo Headset with mic
  • Dock Connector to USB Cable
  • USB Power Adapter
  • Documentation
  • Cleaning/polishing cloth
  • SIM ejector tool
post #177 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Not sure if things haven't changed. As Apple describes the iPhone:

In the box
  • iPhone 3G
  • Stereo Headset with mic
  • Dock Connector to USB Cable
  • USB Power Adapter
  • Documentation
  • Cleaning/polishing cloth
  • SIM ejector tool

Locked as in carrier locked, so you can't use any other carrier.
post #178 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by jongleur View Post

Ahhh. . . . now I understand, this is how you've managed to get 13000+ "comments"

You're new.

Just trying to figure out if the post was serious. Sometimes it's hard to tell.
post #179 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

ALL RIGHT! In after hours trading, AAPL has rebounded back up to $182.45.

I think the coming days should be kind, unless the overall economic situation/oil prices tank stocks in general, hard.



.

The price didn't drop because of the WWDC. It dropped because of two things. The July 11 release, meaning that a full month will pass before the phone is sold, losing those sales will push them out to the next year, and this atricle which came to me yesterday:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/07/iph...partner=alerts
post #180 of 288
Why no 802.11n?
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post #181 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


I was betting on it falling below $176.50. So far my plan isn't working.

I was wondering about that earlier. I hope this was a tax free account, or it will take a bit of time to recoup.
post #182 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Yep, that's exactly what I've already said, except that I posit that AT&T are paying Apple much more. If the 'retail' cost of the phone is around $800 then we can assume AT&T is paying around $600. Less the $240 extra charges then we have to assume that AT&T is getting nailed for around $300+, which is comparable with what most phone subsidies work out to in the US apparently (ref NYTimes article).

It all makes perfect sense.

What makes you think it's anywhere near that high? I don't see that.

There is every reason to believe the technology is getting cheaper all of the time, and so adding new tech, and replacing some of the old, won't result in much of a change.

And if Apple's memory prices are good, that would help as well.
post #183 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Here's my system: On any device, I cut the claimed battery life in half just on principle. Then I figure I'm going to be in the lower tail of the distribution, so I cut it to about two thirds of that amended figure. I'm usually pretty close.

On the other hand, I notice that if anybody gets three-quarters of one of Apple's "up to ___ hours" figures, it seems to be the crime of the century!

Apple's battery stats are real world and tend to be as good, if not slightly better than stated. IF you go to their spec page for any of their battery powered products they list how they keep items running instead of turning off everything they can like most other companies.

I was looking for someone who has electrical knowledge and can tell me how the mAh, Volts, Amps, Watts, etc all work out to the amount power being used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

SIM ejector tool

It comes in chrome or (PRODUCT) RED



Quote:
Originally Posted by gobble gobble View Post

Why no 802.11n?

• Antenna issues
• Power issues
• The iPhone can't even process the 802.11g 54Mb/s limit. I can't muster more than 2.5Mb/s out of my iPhone.
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post #184 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I was wondering about that earlier. I hope this was a tax free account, or it will take a bit of time to recoup.

Hopefully I will see a drop tomorrow and buy in. I sold last week around 188.
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post #185 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I like Cramer, I even subscribe to his podcast, but I tend to go against him on everything tech. In this case, I hope he is right and Apple falls to $120 again. But I am a little scared now.

Good. Stay scared. You're about the only one who wants the rest of us to lose money because you made a bad decision. I've been saying it won't drop below $160, and I'm not so sure it will even get that low. actually, I'm thinking it's likely it won't go below $170, unless something real bad happens elsewhere.
post #186 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Well you have to be a bit more attentive if you're not going to be duped. The price went UP not down.

Old price $399, new price $199, $10 extra per month over the life of the contract, $240 + $199 = $439.

It's amazing how people just lap up Steve Job's marketing spiel every time. I guess you believe in 'free' phones too.

Get over it. You can cancel within 30 days per law, so buy the cheap iPhone, cancel and jailbreak and use a cheaper plan... not sure what, if any, penalties those who cancel may be subject too. But this is the only problem I see.
post #187 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Good. Stay scared. You're about the only one who wants the rest of us to lose money because you made a bad decision. I've been saying it won't drop below $160, and I'm not so sure it will even get that low. actually, I'm thinking it's likely it won't go below $170, unless something real bad happens elsewhere.

I'm just looking for a very temporary drop. I could buy in tomorrow morning at several points lower than before, but I'm holding out. I'm still thinking $165 will happen again this week.

PS: This reminds of Craps when you bet on the Don't Pass line and the roller gives you an awful look or blames you after he Craps out.
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post #188 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

You miss the point entirely. If Nokia can get 3G to be 70% of 2G talk taime, why can Apple only get 50% of 2G talk time? The answer, probably because their analog engineering is not as good as Nokia's.

It's got nothing to do with the fact that 3G is more power hungry that 2G, we know that, its to do with the choices Apple have made and the designs they use.

Which model is that, and what are the talk times for both modes?
post #189 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Here's my system: On any device, I cut the claimed battery life in half just on principle. Then I figure I'm going to be in the lower tail of the distribution, so I cut it to about two thirds of that amended figure. I'm usually pretty close.

On the other hand, I notice that if anybody gets three-quarters of one of Apple's "up to ___ hours" figures, it seems to be the crime of the century!

Wow! That's really bad. you must have no luck with phones. I usually find I get pretty close to the rated figures until the battery begins to age. Then it starts to drop.
post #190 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple's battery stats are real world and tend to be as good, if not slightly better than stated. IF you go to their spec page for any of their battery powered products they list how they keep items running instead of turning off everything they can like most other companies.

That's true. iPods almost always have much better battery life than Apple specs.

Quote:
I was looking for someone who has electrical knowledge and can tell me how the mAh, Volts, Amps, Watts, etc all work out to the amount power being used.

Exactly what do you want to know about it?

I'll try to give a brief idea.

mAh stands for milli amp hours. That means that, in thousands of an amp (milli), how many Amps the battery can deliver for an hour. So if it says 1,000 mAh, it mean the battery can deliver one amp for one hour. That's the maximum draw without damaging the battery. Within tolerances determined by the battery type it should also deliver 100 mA for 10 hours.

Watts is a measure of Power. Volts times Amps gives Watts. Watts divided by volts gives Amps, and Watts divided by amps gives volts.

You can figure out the rest.

Any other questions?
post #191 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Exactly what do you want to know about it?

I'll try to give a brief idea.

mAh stands for milli amp hours. That means that, in thousands of an amp (milli), how many Amps the battery can deliver for an hour. So if it says 1,000 mAh, it mean the battery can deliver one amp for one hour. That's the maximum draw without damaging the battery. Within tolerances determined by the battery type it should also deliver 100 mA for 10 hours.

Watts is a measure of Power. Volts times Amps gives Watts. Watts divided by volts gives Amps, and Watts divided by amps gives volts.

You can figure out the rest.

Any other questions?

I know the definitions, what I don't know is how to look at the battery specs to determine the power usage for a particular device. For instance, the current iPhone has an 8hr battery life for calls, using the battery specs as a guide how much power is being drawn. Then do this for another device, for instance the Nokia N95, to determine which phone is more efficient. It doesn't account of variances in networks, distances for towers and the antennae, as well as the differences in HW used but it would give a more accurate answer as how efficient each engineered system is over the other.
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post #192 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm just looking for a very temporary drop. I could buy in tomorrow morning at several points lower than before, but I'm holding out. I'm still thinking $165 will happen again this week.

PS: This reminds of Craps when you bet on the Don't Pass line and the roller gives you an awful look or blames you after he Craps out.

Unlike the second half of the '90's, when I could be in and out the same day (being able to cover it), I've been holding Apple since I first bought it in mid 2004. I've bought more, but haven't sold.

Now, something interesting.

Right now the rate would be 15% if I did sell. Tot too bad, even though I don't want to pay it. But, I read an article that said to sell long term holdings if Obama gets in, and likely even if McCain gets in.

Why? Because if Obama gets in, the 15% will expire, and will move to possibly 28%. McCain might have no choice as well.

The speculation on this early into the next presidency could drop stocks enough to make up for the difference in the tax rates.
post #193 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I know the definitions, what I don't know is how to look at the battery specs to determine the power usage for a particular device. For instance, the current iPhone has an 8hr battery life for calls, using the battery specs as a guide how much power is being drawn. Then do this for another device, for instance the Nokia N95, to determine which phone is more efficient. It doesn't account of variances in networks, distances for towers and the antennae, as well as the differences in HW used but it would give a more accurate answer as how efficient each engineered system is over the other.

Ok, from the way you asked it didn't seem so.

I don't see the mAh rating of the iPhone battery on Apple's site. Are you saying you have it?

That's all you really need. Using that number as I mentioned earlier will give you actual draw under any circumstances of usage.
post #194 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I know the definitions, what I don't know is how to look at the battery specs to determine the power usage for a particular device. For instance, the current iPhone has an 8hr battery life for calls, using the battery specs as a guide how much power is being drawn. Then do this for another device, for instance the Nokia N95, to determine which phone is more efficient. It doesn't account of variances in networks, distances for towers and the antennae, as well as the differences in HW used but it would give a more accurate answer as how efficient each engineered system is over the other.

This is why comparing the 2G and 3G implementations is interesting. They are independent of many of those variables in a general sense.
post #195 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What makes you think it's anywhere near that high? I don't see that.

There is every reason to believe the technology is getting cheaper all of the time, and so adding new tech, and replacing some of the old, won't result in much of a change.

And if Apple's memory prices are good, that would help as well.

Because Apple can charge it. They known for their margins. iPods are around 50% for the higher end. I imagine that gross margins are around 50% or so for the new iPhone. If you follow my logic you'll see that it's very sensible.

Or look at it another way. The old phone was $400 + say $300 in kick backs. Do you really thin after such a successful launch they cut the price while adding 3G and GPS? The latter solved their marketing problems. The subsidies solve their price problems. If the phone companies what the phone, and they do, they have to pay. And they will. So Apple has slugged em.

Tell me this: with the utter lack of decent competition, why wouldn't they charge that much?
post #196 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ok, from the way you asked it didn't seem so.

I don't see the mAh rating of the iPhone battery on Apple's site. Are you saying you have it?

That's all you really need. Using that number as I mentioned earlier will give you actual draw under any circumstances of usage.

• 2G IPhone - 1400 mAh, ARM 1176 (620 MHz), underclocked to 412 MHz
• Nokia N95 - 950 mAh, Texas Instruments OMAP 2420, ARMv6 architecture 11 based, (332 MHz)


Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

This is why comparing the 2G and 3G implementations is interesting. They are independent of many of those variables in a general sense.

Don't forget that while the Nokia phones you mentioned may have smaller batteries they also have slower processors... but that may not necessarily mean as power efficient. So many variables.
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post #197 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Why? Because if Obama gets in, the 15% will expire, and will move to possibly 28%. McCain might have no choice as well.

The speculation on this early into the next presidency could drop stocks enough to make up for the difference in the tax rates.

Both awful prospects, bad for the economy, bad for investors and bad for business. Ugh. Might have to sell off all my holdings and move them into tax-free municipal bonds and settle for lousy returns for at least 4 years.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #198 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

• 2G IPhone - 1400 mAh, ARM 1176 (620 MHz), underclocked to 412 MHz
• Nokia N95 - 950 mAh, Texas Instruments OMAP 2420, ARMv6 architecture 11 based, (332 MHz)



Don't forget that while the Nokia phones you mentioned may have smaller batteries they also have slower processors... but that may not necessarily mean as power efficient. So many variables.

Yeah but the processors don't usually get involved with talk and if they do you could reasonably surmise that they would be about the same for 2G and 3G. usually there is a separate processor for the base band and one for the 'application' processing.

Have a look at that SGOLD PDF thing from a few days ago, you'll notice that there are two ARM cores in the big block diagram.
post #199 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Both awful prospects, bad for the economy, bad for investors and bad for business. Ugh. Might have to sell off all my holdings and move them into tax-free municipal bonds and settle for lousy returns for at least 4 years.

Why don't you borrow money cheaply in US dollars then buy Australian dollars. I get 8.25% (on call) on AUD. Buy a forward contract on the AUD so you don't get burnt on the exchange rate. This is called a 'carry trade' for those unfamiliar.
post #200 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Another "joke post"?

This one was wayyyy funnier than the last though.
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