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Piper Jaffray says iPhone 3G's real cost to users: $407 - Page 4

post #121 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nice View Post

............at the end of the day, no-one is paying anything less for the iPhone 3G, except for the initial down payment.


Don't bet any money you can't afford to lose on that statement. Here's why.

ATT gives all of the employees of the company I work for a 25% discount on cell phone plans. This is because my company signed a hugh business contract to have them supply us with celluar service. ATT (and other carriers) does this with a lot of companies. The 25% discount applies only to the voice portion of the plan you have. No discount for data, extra lines, Text, MultiMedia package. etc. We do get free activation. So I save about $10/Month on my $40/month voice plan. (and yes, my two year contract came with a "free" Sony phone.)

So anyways, last year when the iPhone came out, it came with a special $60/Month voice/data package. Guess what? ATT would not give the 25% discount on that plan because they could not separate out the voice portion of the plan from the data. The iPhone would have cost me $399+$60/Month (for 24 Months).

Well this year the 3G iPhone comes with their standard voice and data plan. They are two separate part of the plan. ATT will now give me a 25% discount on the $40/Month voice part of the plan. That's a $10 saving per month. So the the 3G iphone will now cost me $199 + $60/Month (for 24 months) with my discount. It doesn't matter what kind of fuzzy math you use, I (and all my fellow workers) can get the 3g iphone CHEAPER than the old iPhone. Even if it's only cheaper by the difference of the tax between $399 and $199.

And it may get better. I haven't confirmed it yet but a fellow worker called ATT to inquire about the 3G iPhone and they told him that ATT will now expand the 25% discount to include data. That would be another saving of $7.50/month (for 24 months)

So there you have it. Someone that can actually get the 3G iPhone CHEAPER than the old iPhone. But I may be considered a "no one" to you.\
post #122 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You're reading too much into one part and not enough of another.

Even if paid 30k for a car in cash your financial obligations are still not settled. You are required to pay for tag, title, registration and car insurance. If you do finance i believe you are required to pay for full coverage whether you want to or not. According to your logic, since that affects the outcome they shouldn't advertise a $30k car as $30k.

Your next rebuttal would probably be that since your obligation for those other fees are not paid to the auto dealership then they don't need to be stated. But if you cancel your contract with AT&T you don't have to pay Apple anymore than you already have. My receipt from the Apple Store says $318.44. That is it. a 16GB iPhone + sales tax. That is what I bought the iPhone for. We all understand that there are other requirements for that price, but don't cloud the service agreement with the product.

how much is it that Apple collects monthly for each iPhone subsciber?

you aren't finished paying Apple by a long shot, just because you walked out of the store with a phone in your hand.

the termination fees cover the price that AT&T ha to pay Apple for the phone in the first place.

so whether you cancel and pay the termination fee, or you pay out the full two years, you are still paying apple more AFTER the sale almost than you did to originally get the phone in your hand.

and since you HAVE to sign the contract to get the phone, you still HAVE to pay Apple almost double the down payment that you made. it is not some separate AT&T charges, that is all money that goes straight to Apple.
post #123 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

So there you have it. Someone that can actually get the 3G iPhone CHEAPER than the old iPhone. But I may be considered a "no one" to you.\

If we want to go the TCO route then the 3G iPhone is cheaper for me too. I paid $400 for the original iPhone and paid $60/month for service. After a year I paid AT&T and Apple a total of $1120.

I will get a new phone in a year, if not sooner, but a year is most likely. Using the exact same capacity device and package I would have bought an 8GB iPhone I would pay $200 for the handset and $70/month for AT&T service + $5 for 200 SMS to match the previous plan (though I don't have them). That brings the total over the same frame to $1100.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nice View Post

how much is it that Apple collects monthly for each iPhone subsciber?

you aren't finished paying Apple by a long shot, just because you walked out of the store with a phone in your hand.

the termination fees cover the price that AT&T ha to pay Apple for the phone in the first place.

so whether you cancel and pay the termination fee, or you pay out the full two years, you are still paying apple more AFTER the sale almost than you did to originally get the phone in your hand.

and since you HAVE to sign the contract to get the phone, you still HAVE to pay Apple almost double the down payment that you made. it is not some separate AT&T charges, that is all money that goes straight to Apple.

Profit sharing is out so there are no monthly payments per contract anymore.

I am done paying Apple. I am only paying AT&T, what they pay Apple is their business.. literally. Regard of the $199 to $699 price I pay for the iPhone I pay AT&T the same each month.

Yes, the termination fee does cover AT&T in case you cancel. Guess what, even if you brought in your own phone or had finsihed your current contract AT&T could still get you into a contract that would require a $175 cancelation fee. All the carriers do it. They offer what seems to be a great deal so they can lock you in. There is no new phone, much less an iPhone in that scenario.

Again, I am paying Apple nothing. I am paying AT&T, and I'm paying the same amount regardless of the iPhone's price.

If you can show on scrap of evidence where Apple said the TCO was have the price of the original iPhone I will gladly concede. But TCO is also not correct because your service neither goes down or becomes free after your 2 year period is up. You are just out of the contract and can move to a new carrier without a penalty, but they still want your money. What if I use my iPhone for 3 years of 4 years? You have accounted for that.
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post #124 of 154
The carrier don't necessarily spread the cost to subsidize your phone over the life of your contract. They may not even be the party subsidizing you phone. How do I know this? Because 5 years ago I purchased a two year, $35/month plan with Cingular through a third party vender. The plan came with a "free" Motorola v60 (with accessories). Cingular was not the one subsidizing the phone, The third party vender was subsidizing the phone.

How did I know this? Because I had to sign an agreement with the vender that if I fail to make the first 6 month payment of my plan, he woiud bill my credit card the full cost of the phone. It works like this. Cingular pays the third party vender a commission for signing up a customer to a new contract, The commission amounts to three month of the plan subscription fee per year of the contract signed. (Back then a 1 year contract was common.) The third party vender in turn uses part of his commission to subsidize a phone in order to attract customers.

So after 6 months I was off the hook for the phone. And Cingular was off the hook for the commission. That leaves 18 months of my plan subscription fee for Cingular. Unless I want to pay the early termination fee.

That was 5 years ago. Is it still like this now? Well below is a copy of the condition agreement when you get a phone for $.01 with an ATT plan through Amazon. A third party vender.

Conditional $250 Discount
The Price listed above for this phone includes an instant $250 discount from Amazon.com. You agree to repay this $250 discount to Amazon.com if, during the six-month period following the activation date or renewal date of your existing contract, you: (1) fail to pay your balance due each month on time; (2) fail to maintain your account in good standing; (3) disconnect the line of service; (4) transfer the phone to another line of service; (5) change your service rate plan, including canceling or removing required PDA, BlackBerry, or smartphone features after your product has shipped; or (6) use this line of service to replace an existing account with the carrier. The discount is available only if you are activating a new non-substitute line of service or extending an existing line of service. If you do not follow these rules, you authorize Amazon.com to charge your credit card $250 as reimbursement of the discount without need for further approval. Third-party resellers are prohibited from purchasing cell phones on behalf of customers. **Purchase limit five (5) single-line accounts per household.**

With this scenario

The carrier is not subsidizing the phone.
You are through paying for the phone after 6 months of plan subscription fee.
After 6 months, the carrier got enough from you to pay their commission to Amazon.

Now if you got the plan direcrly through a carrier, then the carrier no longer has to pay a commission. But they now subsidizes the phone. A much better deal for the carrier.

Now the iPhone is another scenario all together. There are no third venders but Apple gets a commission for each new contract with an iPhone. This was labeled "revenue sharing" with the old iPhone. Apple was basically asking (demanding?) what ATT would have had to pay out to any third party vender in commission for signing up a customer to a new contract. Only Apple wanted this commission paid over the life of the contract. (revenue sharing) The reason for this is so that there won't be a big spike in revenue in the quarter they come out with a new iPhone. Apple wants to smoothe out the revenue growth curve. This makes it much easier to show earning growth same quarter year over year. Revenue sharing has supposily stopped with the 3G iPhone. But ATT still pays Apple a commission for each new contract signed with an iPhone.

Now, after all of this, the $64 question. Who subsidizes the 3G iPhone? Does Apple subsidize it with the commission they get from ATT? Or does ATT subsidize the 3G iPhone and take it out of the commission they pay Apple? Where is the condition clause that states how many months you have to keep the plan, otherwise they'll bill you for the full cost of the iPhone?
post #125 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The cheaper part is the how much you have to fork over for the handset at the time of purchase. That fact that you are in another country means the $199 price doesn't apply to you, so why do think it should. between VATs and import tax the iPhone is going to be considerably more expensive abroad unless the carrier steps in. If you want a contract free iPhone outside the US you'll have to pay more. If you don't need 3G then you should just get an original iPhone, you still get v2.0 with it, though right now I'd prefer to have v1.1.4 as it's faster and more stable.

I thought it was bad enough that people were calling Apple a lier for quoting the price of the handset and not the TCO, but now you are saying they are lying because it's not available in your country? Unreal!

Are you blind people ! SO can you tell me HOW much does it cost to OWN an iPhone 3G , JUST to have it in your hands - cause that's the real price, i could also NOT want to have it with any data rate at all !
post #126 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Last year I paid $599 for the 1st gen 8GB iphone minus $100 credit store = $499 with AT&T
Yesterday I paid $299 for 3G 16GB iPhone with AT&T
Even a 2nd graded knows that $299 is less than $499.. it is even less that the $399 people paid for their iPhones 2 months ago!!!

No, you've paid 500$ , in your case , and VOILA! you had it , tutto finitto - yours basta ... you could've throw it , slam it , whatever you like - FOR those 500$
HOW much do you need to do so ( just as an example) now.???? is it 200 !????
or may be you should learn a bit about finance leasing .
post #127 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripo View Post

Are you blind people ! SO can you tell me HOW much does it cost to OWN an iPhone 3G , JUST to have it in your hands - cause that's the real price, i could also NOT want to have it with any data rate at all !

Assuming they had product, you could walk into an AT&T or Apple Store and leave with only $199+tax being deducted from your account at that time.

Service fees will be charged at the end of the month. But we aren't talking service fees of TCO, we're talking about what it costs when I want into a store. In fact, we don't know the TCO as it varys depending on how long you use the handset with AT&T (note I said with AT&T, as you move the handset to another carrier).

Your argument makes no sense because there is no other aspect, not even for another mobile phone that you'd account this way. Is there any other aspect of your life that you look at the TCO when buying a product? Are you at automotive boards telling them how they need to include insurance and other required fees in the price of their cars? Of course not, it makes no sense, not to mention there is no way to know the TCO.
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post #128 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Your argument makes no sense because there is no other aspect, not even for another mobile phone that you'd account this way. Is there any other aspect of your life that you look at the TCO when buying a product? Are you at automotive boards telling them how they need to include insurance and other required fees in the price of their cars? Of course not, it makes no sense, not to mention there is no way to know the TCO.

you also aren't MANDATED to buy specific insurance from a specific company, you can pay the price of the car (plus tax title and license) and walk out complete.

no bill collectors etc chasing you at the end of the month.

if a car company offered "half price" on a car, but just rolled those costs into a more expensive insurance plan, or into the tax title and license, you can bet you would see warnings from all the economists that it WASN'T really half price, and that you were just paying the other half in deferred billing.

which is the case here with the iPhone.

if you really don't see it, IT'S OK.

but I wouldn't brag too much in public about the great deal you got on the phone.
post #129 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nice View Post

you also aren't MANDATED to buy specific insurance from a specific company, you can pay the price of the car (plus tax title and license) and walk out complete.

As you say, you can walk out. You can't drive out because you don't have insurance. The point is that it's required for having the car, but the car price doesn't included 60 months of insurance taxed on. But if you have the car longer or short the TCO changes, same with owning and using a cellphone. You can't quantify the TCO of the iPhone either, but you can say to the penny how much money will be deducted from your account that day when you walk into a store to buy any cellphone under contract.
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post #130 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As you say, you can walk out. You can't drive out because you don't have insurance...

but you can't walk out free and clear and under no further obligations with the iPhone.

it's like buying a pizza and pop combo, you HAVE to buy both you can't just write the delivery guy for a check at the door and say you only want the pizza half.

the PRICE of the iPhone includes you signing that contract, and that contract has certain minimum costs, so the PRICE of the iPhone INCLUDES those costs.

it is not TCO, that would be paying gas to run your car, you aren't obligated to buy any set amount of gas when you buy a car. once you are obligated it is part of the original price.

and you find that price by determining how much you have to pay at a minimum to walk out of that store with an iPhone, and NO FURTHER obligations.
post #131 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nice View Post

you also aren't MANDATED to buy specific insurance from a specific company, you can pay the price of the car (plus tax title and license) and walk out complete.

no bill collectors etc chasing you at the end of the month.

if a car company offered "half price" on a car, but just rolled those costs into a more expensive insurance plan, or into the tax title and license, you can bet you would see warnings from all the economists that it WASN'T really half price, and that you were just paying the other half in deferred billing.

which is the case here with the iPhone.

if you really don't see it, IT'S OK.

but I wouldn't brag too much in public about the great deal you got on the phone.

Again, you are going about this backwards. No one determines what kind of insurance they need for a car, before they decide on a car to buy. However, many (if not most) people determine the plan they need before selecting the phone. Because it's the two year plan that is going to be expensive. If I determine that I'm going to need (and can afford) the $70/month plan for voice/data (for two years), then I can go select from the phones being subsidized for that plan. Here I have many choices of phones. If I'm at the limit of by budget I can select a phone that won't cost me anymore than the cost of my two year contract. It's a free phone. Or, I can pay $199 for a 3G iPhone. That's $199 added to the cost of the two year plan that I already selected. The plan that cost EXACTLY the same as the plan that would have gotten me the free phone. There are no added hidden charges because I chose the 3G iPhone over the free one. So how much more did I pay for the 3G iPhone over the free phone. $199. Period.

I can afford the $90,000 Porsche. But I can't afford the full coverage insurance for such a car. It doesn't matter how much more the insurance cost this year than last year. It doesn't matter that I can shop around for the lowest price. If I still can't afford the insurance, guess what? I DON"T BUY THE PORSCHE. If you can't afford the plan that is required to get a 3G iPhone for $199. Then you can't afford the 3G iPhone. It's that simple.

Do you know anyone that would walk up to a carrier and say " A free phone? I can afford that. I'll take it. In fact give me two of them." No. Everyone knows you have to buy a plan to get the phone for free. It's not, you buy the phone to get the plan. It's, you buy the plan to get the phone.
post #132 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nice View Post

.........many have said that AT&T is just bringing the price of the plans in-line with their other plans, and that may be true to a degree, but the reason that the plan was lower for the first gen phone, was that everyone had to pay full price, so there was no need to add any subsidy charges onto the monthly bill, not that we were getting any sort of discount or anything.

There's more "lies" in this statement than you accuse Steve Jobs of making during the Keynote.\

First of all the $399 (for 8g) was a "subsidized" price. The cost of the original iPhone was $599(4g) and $649(8g). Later lowered to $599(8) and $649(16g) With $100 "rebate" coupon for iPhone(4g) buyers. Lose your old iPhone and it'll cost you more than $399 to replace it. And you couldn't (or at least weren't suppose to be able to) buy an old iPhone for $399 without a two year contract. Sounds like "subsidized" to me.

The data plan was lowered by $10 dollar for old iPhone users because data plans rates are based on KBs' downloaded. Voice plans are based on minutes. An old iPhone on EDGE will never be able to download as many KBs' as a 3G Blackberry or Nokia. Even though ATT had a very small 3G coverage area at the time, an old iPhone would never ever be able to take advanage of the 3G network when ATT expands coverage. It's only been a year now and ATT now has an extentive 3G network. But guess what, an old iPhone can still only download at EDGE speed. And the $10 discount for on old iPhone reflects this inequity. Why should an owner of an old iPhone pay $30 for the same data plan as a 3G capable phone owner? It's ATT doing a positive thing for old iPhone owners. But you turn it around and say that it's a negative for current 3G iPhone owners.\
post #133 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I've assumed nothing. "With 2-year contract" means the device is subsidized. It's not a hard concept.

The original iPhone had a 2-year contract as well. Was it subsidized? No.
post #134 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

You didn't have to assume that the $199 price for the 3G iphone was with a two year contract. Job said the the 3G iPhone was half the cost of the old iPhone. The old iPhone was $399 WITH A TWO YEAR CONTRACT. Just because hackers found a way to unlock the old iPhone so that it worked without an ATT contract doesn't mean that the old iPhone sold for $399 without a contract. In fact, if you lost your old iPhone the replacement cost would be closer to $599 without a contract.

The original iPhone wasn't subsidized. When you purchased the iPhone it was yours contract or no contract.

Look, to get the original iPhone AT&T wasn't charging a higher price just because I was not eligible for an upgrade. See the difference? Why would I now assume that I would have to be eligible for an upgrade to get the iPhone 3G at the advertised price?
post #135 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

The original iPhone had a 2-year contract as well. Was it subsidized? No.

Was there money being paid to Apple from AT&T for each iPhone contract? You betcha! Call it profit sharing, reverse-subsidy, or peanut butter & jelly, the statement of "with a two year contract" is quite clear.
sub·si·dize |ˈsəbsəˌdīz|
verb [ trans. ]
— support financially
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post #136 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Was there money being paid to Apple from AT&T for each iPhone contract? You betcha! Call it profit sharing, reverse-subsidy, or peanut butter & jelly, the statement of "with a two year contract" is quite clear.
sub·si·dize |ˈsəbsəˌdīz|
verb [ trans. ]
— support financially

See above your post.
post #137 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

Look, to get the original iPhone AT&T wasn't charging a higher price just because I was not eligible for an upgrade. See the difference? Why would I now assume that I would have to be eligible for an upgrade to get the iPhone 3G at the advertised price?

I don't know if your posts are serious or if you are playing on internet version of Punk'd.

1) IF you were an AT&T customer last year you would have had an eligible or ineligible status on your account. I think AT&T waved all the ineligible statuses if you wanted to activate an iPhone as it required a mandatory data plan.

2) Last year, AT&T was paying Apple each month for each subscriber using an iPhone. This year AT&T is paying Apple upfront.

This is straightforward finances used by all the major US carriers for a very long time.
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post #138 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

The original iPhone wasn't subsidized. When you purchased the iPhone it was yours contract or no contract.

Look, to get the original iPhone AT&T wasn't charging a higher price just because I was not eligible for an upgrade. See the difference? Why would I now assume that I would have to be eligible for an upgrade to get the iPhone 3G at the advertised price?

The difference is this. The original iPhone was subsidized by Apple. They discounted the old iPhone and was suppose to recovered that discount (and more) from the monthly payment ATT paid Apple for each new contract opened with an iPhone.

If the original iphone was "yours'" when you paid $399 to Apple for it, why then was Apple so adament about trying to stop you from using it with another carrier.? Because Apple got money from ATT with the contract you agrred to sign with ATT.

Now ATT is subsidizing the 3G iPhone. Since they weren't the one subsidizing the old iPhone the upgrade requirements are different for old iPhone owners vs owners of phones that are subsidized by ATT.

I beleive (correct me if Im wrong) that if you own an old iPhone (with an ATT contract) you can get the 3G iPhone for $199 just by signing a new two year contract. There is no further obligation to pay off the old iPhone to ATT because Apple subsidized it. Not ATT. Apple most likely recovered the cost of the discount, the old iPhone owners got , in the 1 year of payments they made to ATT. It would be better for Apple to get a new commission for the new contract than to get the rest of the monthly payments ATT would have made on the old iPhone contract.

See the difference?

All first generation phones are expensive. You may not think a $399 phone is subsidized but they usually are. The first Motorola Razr cost over $400 with a contract. And that was subsidized. It list for around $600. Look at the list price of first generation Blackberrys and Nokias. They run as high as $899. So just because you might think a phone is "expensive" (with a two year plan) doesn't mean that it's not subsidized in some way.
post #139 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't know if your posts are serious or if you are playing on internet version of Punk'd.

1) IF you were an AT&T customer last year you would have had an eligible or ineligible status on your account. I think AT&T waved all the ineligible statuses if you wanted to activate an iPhone as it required a mandatory data plan..

Wow!!

The original iPhone was a PURCHASE, yes to use it you had to sign a two year contract. TO USE IT! There was no upgrade eligibility for it. Geez!!

Quote:
Non AT&T subscribers can get a iPhone with a 2 year agreement, but there is no discount. It's $500, $600, or the door. Current subscribers that are out of contract have the same option.Customers currently in contract (based on current consensus) will be able to purchase the iPhone with a contract extension and data subscription. You may or may not be asked for an upgrade processing fee.

Source.

So tell me, how much would I have to pay for the original iPhone if I was not eligible for an upgrade? The same as anyone else. That's how much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


2) Last year, AT&T was paying Apple each month for each subscriber using an iPhone. This year AT&T is paying Apple upfront.

OK. So? What does that have to do with the subject being discussed?
post #140 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

The difference is this. The original iPhone was subsidized by Apple. They discounted the old iPhone and was suppose to recovered that discount (and more) from the monthly payment ATT paid Apple for each new contract opened with an iPhone.

If the original iphone was "yours'" when you paid $399 to Apple for it, why then was Apple so adament about trying to stop you from using it with another carrier.? Because Apple got money from ATT with the contract you agrred to sign with ATT.

Now ATT is subsidizing the 3G iPhone. Since they weren't the one subsidizing the old iPhone the upgrade requirements are different for old iPhone owners vs owners of phones that are subsidized by ATT.

I beleive (correct me if Im wrong) that if you own an old iPhone (with an ATT contract) you can get the 3G iPhone for $199 just by signing a new two year contract. There is no further obligation to pay off the old iPhone to ATT because Apple subsidized it. Not ATT. Apple most likely recovered the cost of the discount, the old iPhone owners got , in the 1 year of payments they made to ATT. It would be better for Apple to get a new commission for the new contract than to get the rest of the monthly payments ATT would have made on the old iPhone contract.

See the difference?

All first generation phones are expensive. You may not think a $399 phone is subsidized but they usually are. The first Motorola Razr cost over $400 with a contract. And that was subsidized. It list for around $600. Look at the list price of first generation Blackberrys and Nokias. They run as high as $899. So just because you might think a phone is "expensive" (with a two year plan) doesn't mean that it's not subsidized in some way.



OK. So you are basically saying what I said. Apple's advertised price for the iPhone 3G is false and misleading. That's the point. As to who subsidized who and to whom is irrelevant. The point is that there was a change made and not disclosed up until the last fews days prior to the launch of the iPhone 3G.
post #141 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post



OK. So you are basically saying what I said. Apple's advertised price for the iPhone 3G is false and misleading. That's the point. As to who subsidized who and to whom is irrelevant. The point is that there was a change made and not disclosed up until the last fews days prior to the launch of the iPhone 3G.

No. You're trying to (at least were trying to) tell us that the old iPhone was $399 NOT SUBSIDIZED and the 3G iPhone is now $199 SUBSIDIZED. Therefore Jobs is "lying" when he said the 3G iPhone is half the price of the old iPhone. Because he was comparing Apples to Oranges.


The rest of us is saying the the old iPhone WAS subsidized. (And it was common knowledge that it was). And now you seem to agree to that. So the old iPhone was $399 Subsidized (we all now seem to agree on this) and the 3G iPhone is $199 SUBSUDIZED (at least we all always agreed on this). Jobs "advertised" the 3G iPhone is "half the price" of the old iPhone. $199 / $399 = .4987 X 100 = 49.87%. Sounds about right to me. $399 and $199 are subsidized price. Both required a new two year contract. We're now comparing Apples to Apples. So what's the problem?
post #142 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

Wow!!

The original iPhone was a PURCHASE, yes to use it you had to sign a two year contract. TO USE IT! There was no upgrade eligibility for it. Geez!!


Quote:
Non AT&T subscribers can get a iPhone with a 2 year agreement, but there is no discount. It's $500, $600, or the door. Current subscribers that are out of contract have the same option.Customers currently in contract (based on current consensus) will be able to purchase the iPhone with a contract extension and data subscription. You may or may not be asked for an upgrade processing fee.




Source.

So tell me, how much would I have to pay for the original iPhone if I was not eligible for an upgrade? The same as anyone else. That's how much.


This sounds about right. The original iPhone cost $399 with a two year contract regardless of whether you are eligible for any "discount". The "discount" to applied to your current contract. Obliviously (well not to you), if you are not a ATT customer, ATT will not give you any discount to get out of your non ATT contract. If you are an ATT customer without a contract it wll cost you $399 with a new two year contract. If you are an ATT customer and you're still under contract, ATT may give you a "discount" to get out of your old contract when you sign a new two year contract with the iPhone. It bepends on the contract and how many months you have to go. Which may or may not include a upgrade processing fee. I don't believe there was any discounts given for multiple iPhone purchases for a family plan. I may be wrong on that.

But this is all standard practice done by all carriers for all new contracts. There is nothing special about it because were talking iPhone.
post #143 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

This sounds about right. The original iPhone cost $399 with a two year contract regardless of whether you are eligible for any "discount"..

Tecnically, you could get around the contract by either having bad credit or putting in a fake SSN when activating through iTunes. This wasn't an ideal situation for AT&T, but there wasn't any choice since you could buy the handset prior to them checking your credit.
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post #144 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

The rest of us is saying the the old iPhone WAS subsidized. (And it was common knowledge that it was). And now you seem to agree to that. So the old iPhone was $399 Subsidized (we all now seem to agree on this) and the 3G iPhone is $199 SUBSUDIZED (at least we all always agreed on this). Jobs "advertised" the 3G iPhone is "half the price" of the old iPhone. $199 / $399 = .4987 X 100 = 49.87%. Sounds about right to me. $399 and $199 are subsidized price. Both required a new two year contract. We're now comparing Apples to Apples. So what's the problem?

The old iPhone was subsidized to Apple. So, yes, from that viewpoint it is correct to say that it was, however, from the viewpoint of the customer it wasn't. So what is the problem? The disagreement here is that some say we should have assumed that the price Steve set for the iPhone at the keynote, the same price that was then plastered all over apple.com's front page fast for weeks, we should have assumed that this price was limited to those who are new to AT&T or current customers that qualify for an upgrade.

Now, why would I assume such a thing since the original iPhone wasn't being marketed as such? Did Apple clarify this change? No it did not. This was only brought to light a few days prior to the iPhone 3G launch date. On top of that AT&T now wants to charge for text messaging for a plan that already has a data plan! Am I pissed? You bet I am. And rightly so.
post #145 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

Now, why would I assume such a thing since the original iPhone wasn't being marketed as such? Did Apple clarify this change? No it did not. This was only brought to light a few days prior to the iPhone 3G launch date. On top of that AT&T now wants to charge for text messaging for a plan that already has a data plan! Am I pissed? You bet I am. And rightly so.

The plans were outlined almost a month before the iPhone launch. There is no way for you to go in and get a new iPhone without being made aware. As for the text messaging, that too was noted prior to the release. if you don't like that AT&T now charges the same data rates as it does with all it's other smartphones then don't switch your plan. There are plenty of people who don't want to switch their plans because they are grandfathred into a better deal than what is offered today.

I have absolutely no idea what you are pissed about. I think you'd find just about anything to be unhappy about. Is not AT&T allowed to change rates and plans after a year and for a new device?
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post #146 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Tecnically, you could get around the contract by either having bad credit or putting in a fake SSN when activating through iTunes. This wasn't an ideal situation for AT&T, but there wasn't any choice since you could buy the handset prior to them checking your credit.

And techically you would be breaking the terms of the contract you agreed to when you bought the phone. And theoretically, the iPhone would be usless without an ATT account and activation. So you should have had to return it to Apple for a refund and maybe minus a restocking fee. But hackers unlocked it and got it to work without ATT.
post #147 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

The old iPhone was subsidized to Apple. So, yes, from that viewpoint it is correct to say that it was, however, from the viewpoint of the customer it wasn't. So what is the problem? The disagreement here is that some say we should have assumed that the price Steve set for the iPhone at the keynote, the same price that was then plastered all over apple.com's front page fast for weeks, we should have assumed that this price was limited to those who are new to AT&T or current customers that qualify for an upgrade.

Now, why would I assume such a thing since the original iPhone wasn't being marketed as such? Did Apple clarify this change? No it did not. This was only brought to light a few days prior to the iPhone 3G launch date. On top of that AT&T now wants to charge for text messaging for a plan that already has a data plan! Am I pissed? You bet I am. And rightly so.

The original iPhone was marketed for $399 with a new two year contract with ATT. With the minimum plan costing $60/month. The 3G iPhone is marketed for $199 with a new two year contract. With the minimum plan costing $70/month. Not everyone went or goes with the minimum plans. Many customers needs more voice minutes, multinedia package, unlimited text, family plans, business plans, etc.

The only thing that changed is the way Apple got you to sign up for the required two year contract. With the old iPhone, you got your contract and activated at home, With the 3G iPhone, you had to get the contract and activated in the store.

And this I believe is the heart of most people gripe about how the 3G iPhone is "marketed", Most grippers ASSUMED that they could get a 3G iPhone for $199 and do the same as last year. That is don't activate it with ATT when they got it home. So for these people, the 3G iPhone is not "half the price" like Jobs stated on his keynote. Thus Jobs is lying.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you state that the $199 price was only for a certain group of people. As far as I know, EVERYONE that signs a NEW two year contract for at least $70/month (voice+data) can ger a 3G iPhone for $199, The cost of getting out of your current contract with ATT or other carrier is not Apples' problem.
post #148 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

I have no idea what you are talking about when you state that the $199 price was only for a certain group of people. As far as I know, EVERYONE that signs a NEW two year contract for at least $70/month (voice+data) can ger a 3G iPhone for $199, The cost of getting out of your current contract with ATT or other carrier is not Apples' problem.

How many times do I have to explain this?

Here's a quote from AT&T, you can see it for yourself here: How much will I pay for iPhone 3G?


Quote:
If you are upgrade eligible and your account is in good standing, you will pay $199 for 8GB (black) and $299 for 16GB (black or white). Two-year contract required.

You have the option to purchase an early upgrade priced at $399 for 8GB (black) or $499 for 16GB (black or white). Two-year contract required.

Being that I'm not "upgrade eligible", my cost for the 16GB iPhone 3G will be $499. $200 more! With the original iPhone I did not need be "upgrade eligible". I would have paid the same as everyone else, "upgrade eligible" or not. Get it? My cost at that time was the same as everyone else. I know this because I asked. A few months ago my LG phone cracked, I needed to get a new one but knew the iPhone 3G was coming. I needed a phone, so I asked, what happens when I want to get the iPhone? He said I could get it any time without having to be upgrade eligible for it. At that time it was true. Get it?

The iPhone 3G is launched and AT&T changes the rules. Get it?

Furthermore, here's something else that lovely AT&T is telling me:

Quote:
You can take advantage of our no-commitment pricing option, with the exception of iPhone which requires a 2-year commitment.This line may be eligible for an equipment discount on xx/xx/20xx

post #149 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

How many times do I have to explain this?

Here's a quote from AT&T, you can see it for yourself here: How much will I pay for iPhone 3G?

"$199 for 8GB (black) and $299 for 16GB (black or white). Two-year contract required. "

Just like we've been saying.

the real question is why aren't you upgrade eligible? Did you not know that an iPhone 3G was not coming out this year?
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post #150 of 154


You don't listen do you? Your question is answered above.
post #151 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post



You don't listen do you? Your question is answered above.

When I made my post that text about poor assumption was not there.

Quote:
I know this because I asked. A few months ago my LG phone cracked, I needed to get a new one but knew the iPhone 3G was coming. I needed a phone, so I asked, what happens when I want to get the iPhone? He said I could get it any time without having to be upgrade eligible for it. At that time it was true.

First of all, it wasn't true then. A few months ago no one new when the iPhone was coming. No one one new the pricing or eligibility or even if was going to be 3G. Sure, we suspected many things, but there was no proof. Your decision to buy a new subsidized phone from AT&T knowing that that are giving a hundreds of dollars off the retail price is your mistake when you could have bought a cheap phone with no subsidization at the store on Craig's List/eBay. You took a chance and lost. The sour grapes routine only shows your bitterness at making the wrong choice. Your argument that a $7/hr retail employee had insider info on an Apple product whose only info was that Jobs said in January 2007 that a 3G version was coming in 2008 is weak.
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post #152 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

First of all, it wasn't true then. A few months ago no one new when the iPhone was coming. No one one new the pricing or eligibility or even if was going to be 3G. Sure, we suspected many things, but there was no proof. Your decision to buy a new subsidized phone from AT&T knowing that that are giving a hundreds of dollars off the retail price is your mistake when you could have bought a cheap phone with no subsidization at the store on Craig's List/eBay. You took a chance and lost. The sour grapes routine only shows your bitterness at making the wrong choice. Your argument that a $7/hr retail employee had insider info on an Apple product whose only info was that Jobs said in January 2007 that a 3G version was coming in 2008 is weak.

What are you talking about? The iPhone has been around for over 1 year! What are you talking about man?!

You didn't have to be upgrade eligible to get the iPhone. There was no discount. That's what's changed. They changed the rules of the game midstream. Had I known that I would be getting a discount if I was upgrade eligible I wouldn't have signed another 2 year contract when I did. I signed another two year contract because: 1) My phone was broken and I need a new one. 2) Because it would have made no difference. At that time the iPhone's cost was the same mid contract or not. I could have walked in 2 months later have purchase the iPhone at cost, no penalty, no extra charge. Now you are telling me that I should have foreseen this? That I'm stupid for not knowing better? What is the matter with you?
post #153 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

What are you talking about? The iPhone has been around for over 1 year! What are you talking about man?!

You didn't have to be upgrade eligible to get the iPhone. There was no discount. That's what's changed. They changed the rules of the game midstream. Had I known that I would be getting a discount if I was upgrade eligible I wouldn't have signed another 2 year contract when I did. I signed another two year contract because: 1) My phone was broken and I need a new one. 2) Because it would have made no difference. At that time the iPhone's cost was the same mid contract or not. I could have walked in 2 months later have purchase the iPhone at cost, no penalty, no extra charge. Now you are telling me that I should have foreseen this? That I'm stupid for not knowing better? What is the matter with you?


Quote:
You have the option to purchase an early upgrade priced at $399 for 8GB (black) or $499 for 16GB (black or white). Two-year contract required.

So according to you, it will cosr you $399 for the 3G iPhone (8g). There is no discount because you are not upgrade eligible, Well, that;s the same price that ATT was going to charge you for the old iPhone with no discount. ATT didn;t disvoint the old iPhone because they weren't the one subsidizing it. The old iPhone was $399 with no discount and the 3G iPhone is $399 with no discounr. Nothing's changed.

The $199 price requires you to sign a NEW two year qualifing contract, And EVERYONE that signs a NEW two year contract will get the 3G iPhone for $199.

It doesn't matter what rules you perceived ATT changed on you with regards to the iPhone. The one rule that they didn't change was that there was no way in Hell that they would let you off the hook for a subsidized phone after only 2 months into your new conract. That's what you should have foreseen. 6 months would be the minimum to become eligible for a discoint and there would most likely be an upgrade processing fee involved. And you would have to sign a NEW two year contract.
post #154 of 154
I've got to say that I have never, ever seen one policy that has gotten so many people riled up.

My own Verizon phone failed on June 20, just a week and some before the July 11 launch. I went into an AT&T store, explained that I needed to port my phone number, get a new phone, and oh by the way I intend to purchase an iPhone 3G the day it is available.

In my case, I was told by several here that 1) I would not get the discounted price on an iPhone 3G. 2) They only way I could get the lower price was to return the AT&T phone I had just purchased. And 3) No matter what I did, it would be costly.

Funny thing is - none of that happened. I got the iPhone 3G 16GB Black for $299. I activated it in the store and ported my number. I still have the other AT&T phone, etc. So, if you want to play the "details" game, it cost me $36 more to get the new iPhone (cost to activate) that will show up on my August AT&T bill.

How did I accomplish this? Simple. I called AT&T over a dozen times, making notes as to date, time and whom I spoke with. The night before the launch I called once more, asking for a manager or supervisor, then going up the line again and again until I finally got a "Yes, we can do that."

Simple.
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