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Yahoo! Music's death at age 3 warns of DRM's risk - Page 2

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

Woe is me, I am incapable of realizing that I can burn a DVD-Audio and that should take most people 1 to 2 discs and then just let iTunes or whatever your jukebox is do the rest of the work. a *tiny* bit annoying? Sure. But so it changing the oil in your car but that doesn't mean it's a broken and worthless system.

Call him a fanboy all you want but all he/she is, is a realist. Nothing in the world is given to you for free and occasionally it might take a little bit of effort to get what you want. Welcome to life...

Whoah, you just went on a tangent. I never said iTunes was broken or worthless. And I don't think iTunes can do dvd-audio, only data. First, the guy was saying iTunes is better because one can burn the songs to disc to remove drm. How can this be better when both uses the same method to remove drm? And i think the problem isn't removing drm, it's more of ripping the songs BACK again and losing quality in the process, which occurs when one rely on burning and re-ripping. Also, the poster never mentioned other jukebox programs, he only focused on iTunes.

um...you do know the difference between .wav (burned as audio disks, remove drm) and .aac/.m4p/etc (burned as data disks, retains drm) right?
post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Last I heard, iTunes had 6 millions songs in total, around 2 million of which are iTunes Plus from EMI and a million and a half indie artists. So 1/3 is DRM free.

I'd be interested to know what each of your music collections are mainly comprised of: indie artists vs. or well known artists from the Big Four (minus EMI, obviously).

I guess, I am more on the indie side, while I do have Amy Winehouse and KT Tunstall, this is about as mainstream as I get (as long as Portishead, Radiohead and Bloc Party are not counted as mainstream).

But, I get 90% of my music from (purchased) CDs. Only when I cannot pre-listen a CD in a store, I might go to the iTMS (and for the odd single song). This by definition sways my iTMS purchase towards the harder-to-get indie groups.
post #43 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I primarily on by from Amazon now. They may be .MP3 but they are DRM free and 256 kbs. Sorry Apple but you do not get much of my money budgeted for music. Amazon is a much better choice and many tracks are cheaper than iTunes.


Despite the allure of amazon's scooped pricing and drmfree library, I would still support iTunes. The reason the record execs are mad at apple is because of their firm stand on .99 songs. And I don't believe for a second that it's because the record companies want to charge us less.

Apple realizes that the viability of legally transferred music files depends on the consumer being happy, not the execs. Case in point:Napster hit its stride as CDs were priced at $17.

The business model is simple. Undercut the competition until you acheive dominance, then bring the prices up where you want them. See: walmart v. Mom and pop

Granted. Apple is no mom and pop shop. But the choice is still to support a business that seeks to keep a consumer-friendly pricing structure, or amazon, whose whole advantage (pricing and drmfree) is a gift from the record companies who are against such pricing.

I know it sounds like I'm making a grander deal of it than it is, and people are going to unload accusations of koolaid consumption. But it seems like an accurate assesment to me.

Patronizing amazon is supporting/enabling the record companies, which is historically suggested to hurt us as consumers in the long run.
post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

I guess, I am more on the indie side, while I do have Amy Winehouse and KT Tunstall, this is about as mainstream as I get (as long as Portishead, Radiohead and Bloc Party are not counted as mainstream).

But, I get 90% of my music from (purchased) CDs. Only when I cannot pre-listen a CD in a store, I might go to the iTMS (and for the odd single song). This by definition sways my iTMS purchase towards the harder-to-get indie groups.

Yeah, that's what I figured. And no, I was not meaning to imply that Radiohead was "mainstream." I was siting that example of their iTunes ad right next to Madonna's ad for a reason. Radiohead, while one of the better known indie bands, is still not well recognized by most, yet they were put head-to-head against Madonna, a memorable '80s singer that's gone terribly mainstream. I want to see more of that blatant competition, instead of the indie groups always getting segregated and sidelined to make room for the big name artists of today, many of which don't deserve most of the attention they get. It makes me ill as a musician and music lover myself.

Now we just need ascii's music tastes. If my assumptions are correct, he should be more into pop music and brand names, which isn't completely a bad thing. I love Bob Dylan, The Beatles, etc.
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post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's copyright infringement. Why don't you just download them from P2P? The net effect is pretty much the same. Library loan systems aren't meant to be or licensed for helping people build their personal music libraries.

I certainly don't encourage copyright infringement, but the net effect isn't the same; in the case of the library CDs, who is going to find out? Meanwhile via P2P, your IP addy is on display.

For the record: I don't even have a library card, and had no fucking clue you could borrow CDs.
post #46 of 84
This and data reduction are the reasons I have chosen never to purchase any music or video file outside the appropriately designated material formats.

I've spent tens of thousands of pounds (Sterling) on music and video products. These goods having better longevity than DRM or myself, my partner/relatives can utilise/sell the LP's, CD's, DVD's etc., once I've expired.

Although I'd like to see talented boundary pushing artists cop a far bigger share of the first baked cake I don't want the audio-visual media companies subsequently screwing any more money from me to stuff into their own pockets or snort up septum compromised noses.
post #47 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Your post was lame too, what's your point?

Fleshman03 posted the "FAIL" pic in response to Foo2 post of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2

"Yahoo! is losing weight fast. Does Yahoo! have cancer".

Sounds like a tasteless joke at Steve Jobs expense.
post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

Despite the allure of amazon's scooped pricing and drmfree library, I would still support iTunes. The reason the record execs are mad at apple is because of their firm stand on .99 songs. And I don't believe for a second that it's because the record companies want to charge us less.

Apple realizes that the viability of legally transferred music files depends on the consumer being happy, not the execs. Case in point:Napster hit its stride as CDs were priced at $17.

The business model is simple. Undercut the competition until you acheive dominance, then bring the prices up where you want them. See: walmart v. Mom and pop

So, you have no fear that won't follow that "simple" business model if/when they gain dominance in the music industry? You're going to put your faith in a corporation that they're not going to screw you over if they have the power to? Alrighty...good luck with that one.

Quote:
Granted. Apple is no mom and pop shop. But the choice is still to support a business that seeks to keep a consumer-friendly pricing structure, or amazon, whose whole advantage (pricing and drmfree) is a gift from the record companies who are against such pricing.

Again, if Amazon fails and retail stores stop selling CD's because it has begun to cut into profit, you're going to trust that Apple won't raise prices? Apple doesn't give one wit about consumer-friendly pricing beyond keeping the iTunes infrastructure alive which in the end leads to continued iPod sales. Putting your trust in big business, any big business, is a pretty foolish thing to do.

Quote:
Patronizing amazon is supporting/enabling the record companies, which is historically suggested to hurt us as consumers in the long run.

Sorry, but patronizing iTunes exclusively is a recipe for disaster. There needs to be retail competition, otherwise you'll be locked into paying high prices for the things you want. Imagine the high prices you'd be paying if only one company made OS X compatible computers...
post #49 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by dattyx26 View Post

Whoah, you just went on a tangent. I never said iTunes was broken or worthless. And I don't think iTunes can do dvd-audio, only data. First, the guy was saying iTunes is better because one can burn the songs to disc to remove drm. How can this be better when both uses the same method to remove drm? And i think the problem isn't removing drm, it's more of ripping the songs BACK again and losing quality in the process, which occurs when one rely on burning and re-ripping. Also, the poster never mentioned other jukebox programs, he only focused on iTunes.

um...you do know the difference between .wav (burned as audio disks, remove drm) and .aac/.m4p/etc (burned as data disks, retains drm) right?

iTunes has been able to do DVD-Audio for quite a while are far as I know and yes, I realize that if you burn is as data it will keep it's DRM but that's why I said DVD-Audio. So maybe it'll take more than a few DVD'S but considering they are now VERY cheap (can get a 50 spool for under $25) I think that's fine (or if you were pressed for money you could buy just 1 DVD-RW or - just realized this, you might be able to trick iTunes into a DVD-Audio image file and then you never even have to buy a disk at all! ). If iTunes died tomorrow and I was forced to take all my DRM'd stuff and burn it to audio so I could get it all I really wouldn't complain about it. That's life and that's also what you agreed to (even if you didn't realize it) when you bought the music.

Maybe I'm a cynic but I don't ever really expect things to go smoothly or that the consumer isn't going to get crapped on in the end. I will say the interface for burning is iTunes is rather user-friendly so maybe that's why it's better! :-D
post #50 of 84
Ah but Apple does care about keeping consumer friendly prices in iTunes. It's their bread and butter. They get away with charging more for their iPod BECAUSE of the consumer friendly prices in iTunes. It is those prices that spur the growth in iPods whereas Amazon doesn't have an 'mp3' player and thus their goal is to make money from the music - Apple doesn't care about making money from the music (as has been shown time and again) they are solely after iPod sales and the best way to do that is to make iTunes prices as low as possible. So yes, I'd say given Apple's record on music prices, how much they've fought the record labels, even tho they have a HUGE market share they maintain the exact same pricing structure (despite inflation) I would put my trust in Apple to maintain consumer friendly prices much more than I would Amazon...
post #51 of 84
Can anyone explain the pricing disparity between the Australian iTunes store and the US one? $1.69 versus 99c per seems unusual considering the current exchange rate.

Was it set to the exchange rate at the time the store was introduced or due to a smaller market or taxes perhaps?
post #52 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post

I certainly don't encourage copyright infringement, but the net effect isn't the same; in the case of the library CDs, who is going to find out? Meanwhile via P2P, your IP addy is on display.

What I mean is that the economic effect is the same, a person would get media they aren't entitled to keep.
post #53 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Fleshman03 posted the "FAIL" pic in response to Foo2 post of

I saw the source of response.

Quote:
Sounds like a tasteless joke at Steve Jobs expense.

But the expense seemed to be more at Yahoo to me.
post #54 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farkuss View Post

I haven't bought a cd in years. I look forward to the day when the labels are defunct, and their suits are scratching their collective heads.

I get a lot of my cuts from cd's loaned from public libraries.

Lame-what is so cool about boasting that you steal music? Cheapskate.
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post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I saw the source of response.



But the expense seemed to be more at Yahoo to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Fleshman03 posted the "FAIL" pic in response to Foo2 post of

Sounds like a tasteless joke at Steve Jobs expense.


It was in defense of that "arrogant [expletive] who thinks he’s above the law." Read the second to last paragraph and you'll understand.
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post #56 of 84
Anyone interested in bigger picture of media corporations should watch documentary called: Orwell Rolls in his Grave, it explains how their control of internet is rising and DRM is one of the means of achieving it. Put it shortly: DRM = bad, reeeally bad...
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post #57 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Yahoo would have to get permission from every label involved in order to strip the DRM in a way not previously agreed upon. I don't see that happening.

  • How many labels are there really for Yahoo to deal with? I seem to recall the RIAA only being five companies.
  • Yahoo had to work out the distribution agreements with the labels to start, so it's not like it's some huge undertaking to contact them all, they've done it before.

And actually, the operative word in my post was force. Who needs the labels' permission when you get a ruling from a class-action lawsuit by Yahoo Music customers.
post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaFox View Post

  • How many labels are there really for Yahoo to deal with? I seem to recall the RIAA only being five companies.
  • Yahoo had to work out the distribution agreements with the labels to start, so it's not like it's some huge undertaking to contact them all, they've done it before.

And actually, the operative word in my post was force. Who needs the labels' permission when you get a ruling from a class-action lawsuit by Yahoo Music customers.

I really don't think your argument would fly at all. Yahoo made its deal with the devil, and they need to abide by it, even if other entities got better deals. I don't think the court would find itself breaking the label's right of contract over this.

At any rate, I think the chances of a class-action lawsuit are low, the chances of winning it are low, and the chances of getting anything more than a $5 coupon are very low.
post #59 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal007 View Post

The problem here is that the only one getting burned and shafted are the honest people who actually bought music tracks instead of downloading these tracks from P2P networks. Does the RIAA really believe that these people will buy these files all over again ?

I am a little confused. Do the songs that were purchased still have DRM in them?
post #60 of 84
No way....Yahoo had a music service???
post #61 of 84
Let's face it folks.

What killed both MSN Music and Yahoo! Music stores? The Amazon MP3 store.

Not only does the Amazon MP3 store frequently undercut the pricing of the stores I mentioned (and frequently undercuts even the iTunes Music Store), but the fact Amazon mostly encodes their MP3's with LAME 3.97 with 256 kbps variable bit rate encoding without any DRM restriction means the sound quality from the Amazon MP3 sounds almost as good as the original and you can copy it to any portable music player that can play back MP3 files.

Also, you can configure Amazon's free downloader program to automatically put a playlist of the downloaded music into either iTunes or Windows Media Player 11.0 (if you are running Windows XP or Vista), which means easy syncing of the downloaded music with your iPod or other brand portable music player.
post #62 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by troberts View Post

I am a little confused. Do the songs that were purchased still have DRM in them?

Yes they do.
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post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

You have just shown your complete lack of ethics on a public forum. Happy now?

Yeah!

He's worse than Hitler! And Bin Laden! Combined!!1!

post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

...Radiohead, while one of the better known indie bands, is still not well recognized by most, yet they were put head-to-head against Madonna...

Someone must be buying a lot of their CDs by mistake:

In Rainbows
- #1 in the U.S./U.K.

Hail to the Thief - #1 (UK) and #3 (US)

Kid A - #1 in the U.S./U.K.

Amnesiac - #1 in the U.S./U.K.

OK Computer - #1 (U.K.) and 2,000,000 sold in U.S.
post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Someone must be buying a lot of their CDs by mistake:

In Rainbows
- #1 in the U.S./U.K.

Hail to the Thief - #1 (UK) and #3 (US)

Kid A - #1 in the U.S./U.K.

Amnesiac - #1 in the U.S./U.K.

OK Computer - #1 (U.K.) and 2,000,000 sold in U.S.

This is no place for facts.
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post #66 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by troberts View Post

I am a little confused. Do the songs that were purchased still have DRM in them?

The whole point is that the songs are not purchased, but licensed to a person to play via one device. That enables the RIAA to ensure that if you want to hear your music on a portable player, you will need to purchase the rights to play it on said device.

This might be of interest:

Then Gabriel (RIAA Lawyer) asked Parise (Song BMG Exec) if it was okay if a consumer makes just one copy of a track they've legally purchased. She said no -- that's "a nice way of saying, 'steals just one copy.'"

Sucks, don't it? This is why the RIAA is evil and MUST be stopped.

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post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farkuss View Post

I haven't bought a cd in years. I look forward to the day when the labels are defunct, and their suits are scratching their collective heads.

I get a lot of my cuts from cd's loaned from public libraries.

As a Librarian, I must say tisk tisk. Many of my compatriots would want to have your head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

You have just shown your complete lack of ethics on a public forum. Happy now?



He showed that he can stand up for something instead of bowing dow to legal pressures from a RICO ready organization.

If you want to have the argument that two wrongs don't make a right, fine. But do not make it about ethics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Yeah!

He's worse than Hitler! And Bin Laden! Combined!!1!


Don't forget those Communists, Lenin and Stalin. (see picture in last post.)


As for ripping CDs as opposed to ripping them, don't forget there is a loss of quality and the resulting product is nowhere near that of the original quality.
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post #68 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Someone must be buying a lot of their CDs by mistake:

In Rainbows
- #1 in the U.S./U.K.

Hail to the Thief - #1 (UK) and #3 (US)

Kid A - #1 in the U.S./U.K.

Amnesiac - #1 in the U.S./U.K.

OK Computer - #1 (U.K.) and 2,000,000 sold in U.S.

Doesn't change what I said. The mainstream majority either doesn't know them by name or couldn't identify most of their songs if they heard them on the radio. I know, I'm a big fan and while many of my friends know them, they're all really into music as well. But all the (hate labels, but) jocks and preppy kids back in high school, who listen to a ton of corporate pop and corporate rock, are completely unaware of Radiohead's existence.

Shoot, Elliott Smith won an Oscar for Miss Misery, which was played in one of the best known movies (Good Will Hunting) and many people I know who are into music don't have a clue who he is, his songs, albums, etc.
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post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Doesn't change what I said. The mainstream majority either doesn't know them by name or couldn't identify most of their songs if they heard them on the radio. I know, I'm a big fan and while many of my friends know them, they're all really into music as well. But all the (hate labels, but) jocks and preppy kids back in high school, who listen to a ton of corporate pop and corporate rock, are completely unaware of Radiohead's existence.

Shoot, Elliott Smith won an Oscar for Miss Misery, which was played in one of the best known movies (Good Will Hunting) and many people I know who are into music don't have a clue who he is, his songs, albums, etc.

1) How can a band put out 5 consecutive #1 CDs and not be "mainstream"?

2) Elliot Smith is dead. And he didn't have any hit CDs. Despite that, no one who's "into music" doesn't know who he is, regardless of what you and your "alternative" friends think.

3) Are you high?

4)
post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleshman03 View Post

He showed that he can stand up for something instead of bowing dow to legal pressures from a RICO ready organization.

I thought the best way to "fight" them was to support non-RIAA labels. I think copying RIAA-affiliated music only bolsters their arguments.

To me, "fighting big music" and still listening to their product is almost as two-faced as the RIAA is.
post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleshman03 View Post

As a Librarian, I must say tisk tisk. Many of my compatriots would want to have your head.




He showed that he can stand up for something instead of bowing dow to legal pressures from a RICO ready organization.

If you want to have the argument that two wrongs don't make a right, fine. But do not make it about ethics.



Don't forget those Communists, Lenin and Stalin. (see picture in last post.)


As for ripping CDs as opposed to ripping them, don't forget there is a loss of quality and the resulting product is nowhere near that of the original quality.

Number 1, it's a punishable crime.
Number 2, it is not ethical to steal intellectual property, see number 1.

All he stands for is anarchy.
post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

1) How can a band put out 5 consecutive #1 CDs and not be "mainstream"?

You tell me? They don't have a "mainstream" sound, they don't look "mainstream," they don't act "mainstream." A much larger portion of the music-listening population doesn't know who they than does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

2) Elliot Smith is dead. And he didn't have any hit CDs. Despite that, no one who's "into music" doesn't know who he is, regardless of what you and your "alternative" friends think.

There's no absolute truth here. Some people who consider themselves music enthusiasts haven't heard of him. There are...shades of music lovers, so to speak, no distinct groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

3) Are you high?

Grow up.
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post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

You tell me? They don't have a "mainstream" sound, they don't look "mainstream," they don't act "mainstream."

I don't think any of those things matter. If it tops the overall bestseller list, as far as I'm concerned, it's mainstream. Maybe not so much if it only topped a chart tracking a genre.

I really don't accept these fuzzy definitions that it's not mainstream if it doesn't have a certain sound, behavior or whatever, none of which can really be defined either. A group of alleged music fans not hearing of a group doesn't negate it either, because they might be so focused on certain kinds of music that they just don't see anything outside of their focus.
post #74 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think any of those things matter. If it tops a bestseller list, as far as I'm concerned, it's mainstream.

So you'd consider Bob Dylan mainstream?

There's a difference between mainstream and simply well known.
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post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think any of those things matter. If it tops a bestseller list, as far as I'm concerned, it's mainstream.

No, they don't matter. He is confusing the term mainstream to mean that they are like other groups instead of the usage in this context that they are a well known and liked group. By his reckoning, Amy Winehouse's widespread popularity, millions of sales and well known name does not make her mainstream because her look, actions and musical style are not common among other musicians.
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post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

So you'd consider Bob Dylan mainstream?

There's a difference between mainstream and simply well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan_discography You see all those RIAA certificationa and all those #1s? You can't get those without being in the mainstream.
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post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

By his reckoning, Amy Winehouse's widespread popularity, millions of sales and well known name does not make her mainstream because her look, actions and musical style are not common among other musicians.

Not to mention her lack of positive impact among those that still have their sanity.
post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

So you'd consider Bob Dylan mainstream?

There's a difference between mainstream and simply well known.

I think there's a difference between "just" being well known and enough people being willing to buy stuff to put them #1 on a CD chart.
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No, they don't matter. He is confusing the term mainstream to mean that they are like other groups instead of the usage in this context that they are a well known and liked group. By his reckoning, Amy Winehouse's widespread popularity, millions of sales and well known name does not make her mainstream because her look, actions and musical style are not common among other musicians.

Sorry, I guess you missed the context of my original comments about competition between well known but not mainstream artists vs. well known AND mainstream artists. I noted that on iTunes, a Radiohead ad was side-by-side a Madonna ad as an example.

There are multiple definitions for the term "mainstream." The mainstream artists I was referencing were corporate pop, corporate rock, and corporate rap artists who sing about their cars and living "the life" and being stereotypically in opposition to their parents. These "artists" MOST OF THE TIME, are ALSO popular with "mainstream" music listeners and thus have mainstream success.

Then there are the Bob Dylans and on a very different level, the Radioheads of the world. Yes, they have name recognition. Yes, they have some hit songs or records. What sets them apart from the Fall Out Boys and the Britney Spears is that they are generally divisive, mainly because they actually "have something to say." Dylan's probably the best example. Everyone knows his name, a few of his songs, but while many love his deep lyrics, there are likely just as many, if not more people who can't stand him because of his voice, what he sings about, etc. Radiohead is much lesser known band and divides people because of Thom's voice, some of their political messages, general dislike for what they produce, etc.

Yeah, I was making...generalizations. Most of the time, artists who put out mainstream, corporate, self-indulgent music (I call it crap) they achieve mainstream success. Much lesser-known artists like Radiohead (especially the Radiohead of today) generally don't achieve success even close to the level of what a mainstream artist has in terms of radio play, name recognition, and money. Are these GENERALIZATIONS always true? Of course not, but...generally, they are.
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post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Sorry, I guess you missed the context of my original comments about competition between well known but not mainstream artists vs. well known AND mainstream artists.

I got it, but it 's now clear we are all talking about the same thing, we just differ on the terminology to describe it. Clearly Madonna is more well known, she has one of the most well known countenance in the world.

I do think your "well known but not mainstream" is a bit of an oxymoron if you are describing well known by means of their record sales and rankings, which is the biggest contention here. Perhaps calling them corporate sellouts would be more fitting.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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