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Apple poised for special event this September - Page 5

post #161 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Mac OS X will not turn an under powered sub-notebook into a useable and profitable mini MacBook, nor earn it the popularity that Apple's iPhone/iPod touch mobile WiFi platform already has.

No need for a sub-par notebook- remember the 12" Powerbook?
Bring it back as an 11 " please- ports and all.
post #162 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Could a MB or MBP be made with the same material as the clear plastic / lucite on the G4 tower and other towers? I like that material. It always looks new and clean, and it doesn't dent easily. I guess it would be heavier than the existing plastic.

Isn't the shift from titanium to alumin(i)um a backward movement? I thought titanium was a stronger metal.

I think it was titanium coated (painted) only- i could be wrong. A friend had one and it would chip/flake off. Was absolutely gorgeous when new. It's in the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art actually.
post #163 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Could a MB or MBP be made with the same material as the clear plastic / lucite on the G4 tower and other towers? I like that material. It always looks new and clean, and it doesn't dent easily. I guess it would be heavier than the existing plastic.

Isn't the shift from titanium to alumin(i)um a backward movement? I thought titanium was a stronger metal.

Once upon a time the iBook was clear plastic, painted white on the inside. Some people cleaned off the paint to just have a transparent laptop body.
post #164 of 312
Guys, if Apple wants to compete with Asus and these other netbooks, they're going to do it with a 7-9" tablet that runs on OSX Touch and either Atom or something from Apple PA Semi acquisition. It'll be a little more expensive than an eeePC, but way cooler...just like everything Apple does.

Will it come out this year? Highly doubtful. Will it come? Oh yeah. Just a matter of time. Why create such a great mobile operating system and then not use it for your ultramobile devices? It'd be a waste of R&D dollars to limit it to the iPhone and iPod touch.
post #165 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaple View Post

Guys, if Apple wants to compete with Asus and these other netbooks, they're going to do it with a 7-9" tablet that runs on OSX Touch and either Atom or something from Apple PA Semi acquisition. It'll be a little more expensive than an eeePC, but way cooler...just like everything Apple does.

Will it come out this year? Highly doubtful. Will it come? Oh yeah. Just a matter of time. Why create such a great mobile operating system and then not use it for your ultramobile devices? It'd be a waste of R&D dollars to limit it to the iPhone and iPod touch.

Please god no. Tablets are a redundant, creatively bankrupt solution to a problem which (Still) doesn't exist. A better idea is a small laptop with a multi-touch screen

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MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
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White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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post #166 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Mac OS X will not turn an under powered sub-notebook into a useable and profitable mini MacBook, nor earn it the popularity that Apple's iPhone/iPod touch mobile WiFi platform already has.

OS X ran fine on far slower computers.
post #167 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

No need for a sub-par notebook- remember the 12" Powerbook?
Bring it back as an 11 " please- ports and all.

The 12" PowerBook G4 was hardly sub-par. It featured a full-size keyboard, DVI-out, 2 USB ports, Firewire 400, an optional SuperDrive, a dedicated video card, RAM expandable to 1.26GB, a decent processor, optional AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth 1.1 standard, and a 40GB HDD. The screen was obviously just a tad too small.

And how much did it cost?: $1600-$1800.

Apple isn't going to put out a cramped, under powered sub-notebook. Apple already replaced the 12" PowerBook G4 this past January with the ultra-portable MacBook Air that features a decent processor, decent storage (though it's likely to increase as part of the transition) full-size screen, full-size keyboard, 802.11n and Bluetooth 2.1, and drops the unnecessary internal disc drive in favor of an optional, external SuperDrive that can be connected when needed, in addition to Remote Disc wireless installation of disc-based programs like Adobe's Creative suite.
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post #168 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

OS X ran fine on far slower computers.

I didn't say anything about Mac OS X not running fine on older Macs. I was stating that putting Mac OS X on an under-powered micro laptop with a cramped screen, like 8GB of flash storage, an egregiously slow processor, and a tiny keyboard won't magically make that computer worthwhile or profitable.

I'm sure Mac OS X could be run on an Eee PC - didn't some people already accomplish that a few months ago? - but Apple has no interest in competing in the profitless netbook market that is not "booming" by any stretch of the imagination.
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post #169 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

I didn't say anything about Mac OS X not running fine on older Macs. I was stating that putting Mac OS X on an under-powered micro laptop with a cramped screen, like 8GB of flash storage, an egregiously slow processor, and a tiny keyboard won't magically make that computer worthwhile or profitable.

I'm sure Mac OS X could be run on an Eee PC - didn't some people already accomplish that a few months ago? - but Apple has no interest in competing in the profitless netbook market that is not "booming" by any stretch of the imagination.

You're making assumptions which are flagrantly false. I'm suggesting Apple build a premium version of the Eee-class notebook, with the 10 (Or even 11, why not). It doesn't need to be done the way Asus did it. The current offerings aim to be cheap and small, I'm simply suggesting Apple make a truly small notebook, but with their trademark quality. Hence why the price I listed was higher by a considerable margin than the likes of the Eee.

Incidentally, Apple could, and MSI already have, put a hard drive in such a device.

Besides which, that market is booming. Sorry, it just is.

MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
White iPad (3G) with Wi-Fi | 16GB | Engraved | Blue Polyurethane Smart Cover
White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
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White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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post #170 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensonb View Post

You're making assumptions which are flagrantly false. I'm suggesting Apple build a premium version of the Eee-class notebook, with the 10 (Or even 11, why not). It doesn't need to be done the way Asus did it. The current offerings aim to be cheap and small, I'm simply suggesting Apple make a truly small notebook, but with their trademark quality. Hence why the price I listed was higher by a considerable margin than the likes of the Eee.

No offense, but what you are describing is basically a crappy mini MacBook Air. A 10" screen is ridiculously small. The 12" PowerBook's display was already a bit claustrophobic, which is one of the reasons Apple retired it. The case of such a tiny laptop would require serious compromises in keyboard size, processing power, internal storage, graphics, the list goes on. And then you either expect them to charge a premium for it, which would cannibalize the new MacBook Air, or price it low enough to compete with the Eee PC, placing it only a stone's throw from Apple's much more impressive touch-based mobile WiFi platform, the iPhone/iPod touch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensonb View Post

Besides which, that market is booming. Sorry, it just is.

How is the tiny niche market of hardly useable netbooks "booming?"
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post #171 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

The 12" PowerBook G4 was hardly sub-par. It featured a full-size keyboard, DVI-out, 2 USB ports, Firewire 400, an optional SuperDrive, a dedicated video card, RAM expandable to 1.26GB, a decent processor, optional AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth 1.1 standard, and a 40GB HDD. The screen was obviously just a tad too small.

And how much did it cost?: $1600-$1800.

Apple isn't going to put out a cramped, under powered sub-notebook. Apple already replaced the 12" PowerBook G4 this past January with the ultra-portable MacBook Air that features a decent processor, decent storage (though it's likely to increase as part of the transition) full-size screen, full-size keyboard, 802.11n and Bluetooth 2.1, and drops the unnecessary internal disc drive in favor of an optional, external SuperDrive that can be connected when needed, in addition to Remote Disc wireless installation of disc-based programs like Adobe's Creative suite.

Not everybody wants a laptop that large nor that missing in features. This was not a replacement for a 12" Powerbook- that was like 3 years ago. There is a larger market for a full feature mini laptop with a smaller form like a Sony Vaio TZ. Trust me - we will get it. A Sony Vaio TZ costs $2,500.-$3,000. I would buy an Apple version any day over the MBA.
post #172 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

No offense, but what you are describing is basically a crappy mini MacBook Air. A 10" screen is ridiculously small. The 12" PowerBook's display was already a bit claustrophobic, which is one of the reasons Apple retired it. The case of such a tiny laptop would require serious compromises in keyboard size, processing power, internal storage, graphics, the list goes on. And then you either expect them to charge a premium for it, which would cannibalize the new MacBook Air, or price it low enough to compete with the Eee PC, placing it only a stone's throw from Apple's much more impressive touch-based mobile WiFi platform, the iPhone/iPod touch.

"

The 12 Macbook Pro 's screen is riculously small yet the iPhone's isn't- HA!
It was retired because it got to hot and couldn't get any faster but now we have Intel and it can get much faster, etc. Plus it has ports.
post #173 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Not everybody wants a laptop that large nor that missing in features. This was not a replacement for a 12" Powerbook- that was like 3 years ago. There is a larger market for a full feature mini laptop with a smaller form like a Sony Vaio TZ. Trust me - we will get it. A Sony Vaio TZ costs $2,500.-$3,000. I would buy an Apple version any day over the MBA.

A laptop that large? Oh yeah, I mean the Air is just ridiculously bulky, right? Those crazy tapered edges and over the top thickness that goes from 0.76" at the thickest to 0.16" at the thinnest.

The $1900 Sony TZ is in the profitable, premium ultra-light market that Apple's MacBook Air is in, not the budget netbook niche the Eee PC is in, though it's 11" screen and micro keyboard makes it less appealing. Your "full-featured mini laptop" is an oxymoron, but I will admit the TZ is probably the closest example you could have for such a thing, though that's not really a positive.

While the Air lacks some ports and an internal disc drive, it does have a full-size LED backlit display, full-size keyboard, a much more capable 1.6-1.8GHz processor, 2GB of RAM standard, 80GB HDD, Bluetooth 2.1, 802.11n WiFi, mic, speakers, video-conferencing camera, Multi-Touch trackpad, MagSafe magnetic power connector, magnetic display latch, backlit keys w/ ambient light sensor, DVI out, optional 64GB SSD, and of course, free and valuable iLife apps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

The 12 Macbook Pro 's screen is riculously small yet the iPhone's isn't- HA!

For what the iPhone does and the fact that only one application is on the screen at a time, its screen is big enough for the tasks at hand and it does everything very well.

Meanwhile, the slow, budget Eee PCs and premium-priced, borderline micro laptops from Sony with their tiny screens, keyboards, and similarly low-performance components, are both painful to use in terms of speed and eye+hand strain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

It was retired because it got to hot and couldn't get any faster but now we have Intel and it can get much faster, etc. Plus it has ports.

I'm not saying Apple couldn't make a sub-notebook. But if they wanted to, they would have done so rather than putting out the Air. A slower, smaller MacBook or MacBook Air would cannibalize their profitable consumer and high-end laptops, and/or be cannibalized by the much more popular and mobile iPhone/iPod touch WiFi, touch-based devices.
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post #174 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Sure, I see what you're saying, but until they do something more radical, like dropping the internal SuperDrive entirely, we aren't going to see major slimming down of the MacBook Pro's 1" thickness. While rounded rectangles are nice, they do feel bulkier. Remember, the original iPhone was a rounded rectangle and was actually a bit thinner at its thickest point than the new iPhone 3G at its thickest point. But the 3G's tapered edges make it feel thinner than the original.

Another good example of how form-factor can affect the overall feel of something is the MacBook vs. the MacBook Pro. Both are rather similar in terms of design: rounded rectangles. The MacBook is 0.4 lbs. lighter than the 15" MacBook Pro...but which one feels lighter? The MacBook Pro. The Pro spreads out its weight very well, while the MacBook can't, due to its smaller case and what Apple packs into that.

Tapering the edges may not reduce weight much, if at all, BUT it does spread out the weight better, making it feel lighter. The iPhone 3G feels lighter, the MacBook Air seems so amazingly thin thanks to more than just its weight and central depth, and the fairly new aluminum iMacs look thinner thanks to...a curved back (and the black matte probably doesn't hurt).

I just don't see any of that.

Apple could have eliminated at least the quarter inch of the outer edges of the Air's case, and it would have been just as thin.

What you notice about the iPhone is actually an example in my favor. Apple didn't thin down the outer edges of the 3G, they increased the thickness in the middle.

The thin edges of the Air are just a talking point, they serve no actual purpose, and as many have noticed, they make the screen look even smaller. They also use more material, and no doubt cost a bit more.

One thing about the rounded square edges of the computers now, are that they allow you to carry the computer either way up, or even sideways, if that's convenient for some reason. With the Air's edges, that not really possible, as it's much too uncomfortable.
post #175 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

I didn't say anything about Mac OS X not running fine on older Macs. I was stating that putting Mac OS X on an under-powered micro laptop with a cramped screen, like 8GB of flash storage, an egregiously slow processor, and a tiny keyboard won't magically make that computer worthwhile or profitable.

I understand that, but I think you're contradicting yourself on the processor performance, OS X runs fine on much slower Macs, but OS X would be poorly served by today's "underpowered" ULV chips which are actually quite a bit faster than those older Macs and can address bigger memory and the drives are faster now. As it is, I think Apple's current MacBook and even the MBP are even quite a bit over powered, unless you crank up the fan speed, they feel like they're going to burn something, even on idle CPU.

Exactly what are the true processor needs of a typical notebook user?
post #176 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Could a MB or MBP be made with the same material as the clear plastic / lucite on the G4 tower and other towers? I like that material. It always looks new and clean, and it doesn't dent easily. I guess it would be heavier than the existing plastic.

Isn't the shift from titanium to alumin(i)um a backward movement? I thought titanium was a stronger metal.

I thought the Macbooks are polycarbonate.

Titanium is stronger than aluminum.

But the tit. shell was much thinner than the aluminum shell, and so the alum. shell is stiffer.

The Tit. models were not stiff at all, and that was a major problem with them.
post #177 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I think it was titanium coated (painted) only- i could be wrong. A friend had one and it would chip/flake off. Was absolutely gorgeous when new. It's in the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art actually.

It was stamped titanium. They painted the titanium. Personally, I like the color of raw titanium. it has a very nice warm grey look.
post #178 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaple View Post

Guys, if Apple wants to compete with Asus and these other netbooks, they're going to do it with a 7-9" tablet that runs on OSX Touch and either Atom or something from Apple PA Semi acquisition. It'll be a little more expensive than an eeePC, but way cooler...just like everything Apple does.

Will it come out this year? Highly doubtful. Will it come? Oh yeah. Just a matter of time. Why create such a great mobile operating system and then not use it for your ultramobile devices? It'd be a waste of R&D dollars to limit it to the iPhone and iPod touch.

Why are some people here assuming that Apple WANTS to compete with them?

I don't think they do. Why would they want to?

I hope they will have a device like an expanded Newton, but that would be a different product entirely.
post #179 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensonb View Post

You're making assumptions which are flagrantly false. I'm suggesting Apple build a premium version of the Eee-class notebook, with the 10 (Or even 11, why not). It doesn't need to be done the way Asus did it. The current offerings aim to be cheap and small, I'm simply suggesting Apple make a truly small notebook, but with their trademark quality. Hence why the price I listed was higher by a considerable margin than the likes of the Eee.

Incidentally, Apple could, and MSI already have, put a hard drive in such a device.

Besides which, that market is booming. Sorry, it just is.

That market is booming only if the product costs $300 to $400.
post #180 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I just don't see any of that.

Apple could have eliminated at least the quarter inch of the outer edges of the Air's case, and it would have been just as thin.

Really, they could have gotten a completely flat, rounded rectangle down to an overall thickness of 0.16"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What you notice about the iPhone is actually an example in my favor. Apple didn't thin down the outer edges of the 3G, they increased the thickness in the middle.

Sorry, but I was being fair. The iPhone 3G's thickness is just a tiny be thicker at its thickest point, but overall it's thinner than the original thanks to its new tapered edges. It also feels better in the hand because of this contoured shape, which fits the natural curve of the palm.

Think about the Zune's rather squared corners compared to the iPod classic's more rounded corners. We both know which one more easily slips into a pocket and feels better to hold: the iPod. The iPhone 3G feels even better than the iPod classic thanks to tapered edges and makes it seem smaller than the original rounded-rectangle iPhone.

Take a look at the comparison pictures on THIS PAGE. The white iPhone 3G is thinner overall and if they had gone with the black model, the difference would be more obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The thin edges of the Air are just a talking point, they serve no actual purpose, and as many have noticed, they make the screen look even smaller. They also use more material, and no doubt cost a bit more.

No, the tapered edges really aren't what makes the screen seem smaller. It's more an issue with the size of the bezel around the screen. Likewise, they're not necessarily using more material, but simply spreading the aluminum out more in the x and y planes, while the z plane, a.k.a. thickness, is decreased. One way to conceptualize this is to visualize the current MacBook Pro and then running said MacBook Pro over with a steam roller. What do you get? Same amount of aluminum, but it's all spread out and overall, it's thinner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

One thing about the rounded square edges of the computers now, are that they allow you to carry the computer either way up, or even sideways, if that's convenient for some reason. With the Air's edges, that not really possible, as it's much too uncomfortable.

Hmm, have you actually picked up a MacBook Air and put it under your arm? It's tapered edges, while thin, are not razor sharp. Also, it's not the same 0.16" across the entire surface, but gradually expands to its thickest points in the back and the center.

Think about how it would feel to carry...a medium-sized textbook under your arm vs. a frozen pizza of roughly the same size, with its thickest point being slightly thinner than the thickest point of the book. The pizza's shape - thick center tapering off at the edges - fits the rounded crook of your arm, while the textbook basically forces you to straighten out your arm and push the book against the side of your abdomen to carry it comfortably.
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post #181 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I understand that, but I think you're contradicting yourself on the processor performance, OS X runs fine on much slower Macs, but OS X would be poorly served by today's "underpowered" ULV chips which are actually quite a bit faster than those older Macs and can address bigger memory and the drives are faster now.

Ah, agreed. I should have said something to the effect of "by today's standards."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

As it is, I think Apple's current MacBook and even the MBP are even quite a bit over powered, unless you crank up the fan speed, they feel like they're going to burn something, even on idle CPU.

I also agree (to a certain extent) with you here. The entry-level MacBook is more than powerful and full-featured enough for the majority of casual users. If my now 3 year old 15" PowerBook G4 had a working mic and speakers (they were killed by a large water spill and me turning it out and playing music on it right after to make sure it was ok ) I might be able to wait 'til next summer for my next Mac purchase; I may end up waiting anyway as I'll be starting college in a few weeks and will be short on cash for a while.

Hopefully Apple's upcoming MacBook/Pro redesigns will reduce operating temperatures, especially with the Pro. Of course, the Air is so much cooler-running because...it uses less powerful processors that generate less heat. Perhaps Snow Leopard's Intel optimizations will help in this regard as well.

Oh, and a move to SSDs could make the need for a faster processor less necessary as SSD read times are so much faster than HDDs, they can make system start-up time and application start-up times much shorter and everything in general feels zippier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Exactly what are the true processor needs of a typical notebook user?

Yeah, that's very debatable. In my opinion, Apple sets the standards most of the industry then follows, so anything much slower than the Air is too slow...by today's standards.
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post #182 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I hope they will have a device like an expanded Newton, but that would be a different product entirely.

Melgross, I'd like to introduce you to the new, expanded Newton:


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post #183 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Really, they could have gotten a completely flat, rounded rectangle down to an overall thickness of 0.16"?

That's not what I meant. I meant the thickness of the computer would have been the same, not the very edges.

Quote:
Sorry, but I was being fair. The iPhone 3G's thickness is just a tiny be thicker at its thickest point, but overall it's thinner than the original thanks to its new tapered edges. It also feels better in the hand because of this contoured shape, which fits the natural curve of the palm.

Think about the Zune's rather squared corners compared to the iPod classic's more rounded corners. We both know which one more easily slips into a pocket and feels better to hold: the iPod. The iPhone 3G feels even better than the iPod classic thanks to tapered edges and makes it seem smaller than the original rounded-rectangle iPhone.

Yeah, they have rounded it off a bit, but the pictures do make it look more than it really is. It was only by about an eighth of an inch.

Quote:
No, the tapered edges really aren't what makes the screen seem smaller. It's more an issue with the size of the bezel around the screen. Likewise, they're not necessarily using more material, but simply spreading the aluminum out more in the x and y planes, while the z plane, a.k.a. thickness, is decreased. One way to conceptualize this is to visualize the current MacBook Pro and then running said MacBook Pro over with a steam roller. What do you get? Same amount of aluminum, but it's all spread out and overall, it's thinner.

Again, I should have been more clear. When I earlier said that Apple could have trimmed at least a quarter of an inch from the edges, I was later referring to that trimming to mean that the frame around the screen would be smaller. The trim would have removed that last, thinnest part of the edge of the case, making it smaller.

Quote:
Hmm, have you actually picked up a MacBook Air and put it under your arm? It's tapered edges, while thin, are not razor sharp. Also, it's not the same 0.16" across the entire surface, but gradually expands to its thickest points in the back and the center.

Yes, I have. It's uncomfortable to hold it by either the latch end, or esp. the sides. Very uncomfortable. And I don't have large hands. The fact that the case gets thicker, makes it difficult to grasp, without applying more pressure to your grip than the regular models require. That makes it uncomfortable to hold. There is also more pressure on your finger joints. It doesn't seem like much at first, but after a few minutes, it digs in.

Holding it by the side is even worse, as the taper makes it hard to grasp. It tends to slide out sideways, and is unbalanced as to weight, much more than the normal MacBook Pro.

Quote:
Think about how it would feel to carry...a medium-sized textbook under your arm vs. a frozen pizza of roughly the same size, with its thickest point being slightly thinner than the thickest point of the book. The pizza's shape - thick center tapering off at the edges - fits the rounded crook of your arm, while the textbook basically forces you to straighten out your arm and push the book against the side of your abdomen to carry it comfortably.

Sorry, but that doesn't relate. This isn't thickest in the middle, it's thickest at the end. It's also much smaller than your pizza.
post #184 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Melgross, I'd like to introduce you to the new, expanded Newton:

No. We've discussed this several times before. The iPhone isn't what we mean by that. The machine we're talking about would have a screen about 3 x 5, with about 800 x 480 rez. A slightly more powerful processor, etc.
post #185 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's not what I meant. I meant the thickness of the computer would have been the same, not the very edges.

But then the overall thickness would have to be increased. Take a look at THIS deconstructed MacBook Air. Every inch of the case, tapered or otherwise, is pretty well used/filled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yeah, they have rounded it off a bit, but the pictures do make it look more than it really is. It was only by about an eighth of an inch.

Come on...was that the point?

Q: Which one feels better in the hand?
A: iPhone 3G.
Why? Tapered edges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes, I have. It's uncomfortable to hold it by either the latch end, or esp. the sides. Very uncomfortable. And I don't have large hands. The fact that the case gets thicker, makes it difficult to grasp, without applying more pressure to your grip than the regular models require. That makes it uncomfortable to hold. There is also more pressure on your finger joints. It doesn't seem like much at first, but after a few minutes, it digs in.

Now you're just being persnickety and ignoring common sense. Let's be logical here, most of the time most people are going to carry the MacBook Air with the hinged-end in the palm of their hand and the latch-end pointing up towards their armpit. Why? Because the Air is heaviest at the hinged-end. If they tried carrying it the other way, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but the thinner latch-end would probably cause uncomfortable pressure and...they'd do what's comfortable, switching it around and holding the hinge in their hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Holding it by the side is even worse, as the taper makes it hard to grasp. It tends to slide out sideways, and is unbalanced as to weight, much more than the normal MacBook Pro.

That's a similarly odd notion. Holding it on the left or right side would make it unwieldy, just as carrying either the 15" or 17" MacBook Pro is unwieldy when held in the same manner.

What shape does your hand make when reaching for slender objects, like a pencil, a book, a MacBook; a.k.a. not a baseball? Unless you're a robot, or pretending to be one, it should be a teardrop shape from the side, with your thumb touching your index, middle (especially), and ring fingers.

Your curved fingers make a nice shape for picking up the MacBook Air on either its latch-end or the right or left sides when its display is open. You would handle it this way to move your MacBook Air over to the side (when your food comes to the table for instance) in order to move it without closing the lid, which forces it to sleep.

With the display closed, the Air's hinged-end replicates your teardrop-shaped hand, thus fitting into it like a puzzle piece and likewise, the Air's body slopes towards the latch-end, which matches the slight curve of the inside of your arm, unlike the flat, rounded-rectangle MacBook and MacBook Pro, which force you to push the laptop up against your waist or hip and straighten your arm to keep them from falling forwards or backwards out of your grasp.

Just curious, do you not buy the redesigned MacBook Pro spy shots (below), which feature...tapered edges (and a long battery that, when removed, gives access to the hard drive bay, similar to the current MacBooks)?

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post #186 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

But then the overall thickness would have to be increased.

Every inch of the case, tapered or otherwise, is pretty well used/filled.I saw those pictures when they were first presented.

The only thing at that edge is a wire, which could have been moved further inside, and whatever that small board is, which must be at the edge, and could be moved further in, as there is plenty of room behind it.

Quote:
Come on...was that the point?

Q: Which one feels better in the hand?
A: iPhone 3G.
Why? Tapered edges.

The edge is still thicker than the Air.

It's also a much smaller palm sized device, and has nothing to do with the Air at all.

Quote:
Now you're just being persnickety and ignoring common sense. Let's be logical here, most of the time most people are going to carry the MacBook Air with the hinged-end in the palm of their hand and the latch-end pointing up towards their armpit. Why? Because the Air is heaviest at the hinged-end. If they tried carrying it the other way, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but the thinner latch-end would probably cause uncomfortable pressure and...they'd do what's comfortable, switching it around and holding the hinge in their hand.

I consider you to be forcing the point. I simply don't agree with you here.

Quote:
That's a similarly odd notion. Holding it on the left or right side would make it unwieldy, just as carrying either the 15" or 17" MacBook Pro is unwieldy when held in the same manner.

There have been times when I've had to hold a portable by the side, and I'm sure others have had to do so as well. This one is difficult to hold that way, even for a minute. I've tried it, have you?

Quote:
What shape does your hand make when reaching for slender objects, like a pencil, a book, a MacBook; a.k.a. not a baseball? Unless you're a robot, or pretending to be one, it should be a teardrop shape from the side, with your thumb touching your index, middle (especially), and ring fingers.

We're talking about a three pound computer whose thin edge isn't shaped anything like a teardrop. Let's keep it to that. This isn't a clipboard.

Quote:
Your curved fingers make a nice shape for picking up the MacBook Air on either its latch-end or the right or left sides when its display is open. You would handle it this way to move your MacBook Air over to the side (when your food comes to the table for instance) in order to move it without closing the lid, which forces it to sleep.

Sorry, but no.

Quote:
With the display closed, the Air's hinged-end replicates your teardrop-shaped hand, thus fitting into it like a puzzle piece and likewise, the Air's body slopes towards the latch-end, which matches the slight curve of the inside of your arm, unlike the flat, rounded-rectangle MacBook and MacBook Pro, which force you to push the laptop up against your waist or hip and straighten your arm to keep them from falling forwards or backwards out of your grasp.

I have no real problem with the hinged end. I didn't mention it as a problem.

Quote:
Just curious, do you not buy the redesigned MacBook Pro spy shots (below), which feature...tapered edges (and a long battery that, when removed, gives access to the hard drive bay, similar to the current MacBooks)?

Until these new models come out, it;s irrelevant. We'll have to pick them up, see how they feel, and what they weigh. I don't like to comment about non-existent products, it's pointless.
post #187 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Yeah, that's very debatable. In my opinion, Apple sets the standards most of the industry then follows, so anything much slower than the Air is too slow...by today's standards.

Apple just uses processors that someone else makes. I think they use faster chips to help justify the cost of the machines, not necessarily to set some standard.
post #188 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The only thing at that edge is a wire, which could have been moved further inside, and whatever that small board is, which must be at the edge, and could be moved further in, as there is plenty of room behind it.

Those small margins are not being wasted. How do you know that tiny amount of room isn't serving as an air duct? Ever notice how hot the MacBook and especially the MacBook Pro get in contrast to the rather cool running Air?

If they had squared off the edges to resemble the rest of Apple's laptop line, which is comprised of a 3 year old MacBook case and nearly 5 year old MacBook Pro case, both of which are rather similar in overall look - rounded rectangles - the Air wouldn't feel nearly as thin and lightweight. They also would have had to make the large Multi-Touch track pad smaller. Tapered edges are more than just a talking piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The edge is still thicker than the Air.

It's also a much smaller palm sized device, and has nothing to do with the Air at all.

The iPhone certainly does have something to do with Air. They're both made by the same company and they're both ultra-portable mobile WiFi devices that use Multi-Touch and eschew the use of discs in favor of digital distribution.

Apple's last three products/product revisions:

1) Aluminum iMac with its new curved back and clicky keyboard (which originally debuted on the MacBook).

2) MacBook Air with its tapered edges, clicky keyboard (again borrowed from the MacBook) w/ backlit keys (borrowed from the Alu PowerBook G4/MacBook Pro), Multi-Touch trackpad (that enabled some iPhone-like gestures), and MagSafe power connector (from the first MacBook Pro and shared w/ MacBook), and a magnetic latch (from the MacBook).

3) iPhone 3G with its tapered edges (borrowed from the MacBook Air).

See the trends?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I consider you to be forcing the point. I simply don't agree with you here.

I didn't mean to force anything and I don't think I was. I simply tried to point out what anyone with a brain and nerve endings would do if something felt uncomfortable to hold, i.e. they'd flip whatever it is around under their arm until it was comfortable.

We're also ignoring the fact that most people who carry around their laptop often usually get a neoprene sleeve at the very least, or put it into a messenger bag or backpack. In that context, the Air would more easily slide in and fit into places the more bulky, rectangular MacBook or MacBook Pro could not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There have been times when I've had to hold a portable by the side, and I'm sure others have had to do so as well. This one is difficult to hold that way, even for a minute. I've tried it, have you?

Both the MacBook Pro and the Air are unwieldy when held that way. Can both be held that way? Sure, but it's not a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We're talking about a three pound computer whose thin edge isn't shaped anything like a teardrop. Let's keep it to that. This isn't a clipboard.

What the heck's your definition of a teardrop shape?

Here's mine:
or

The Air most certainly is teardrop shaped. Look at THESE comparison photos or below at Apple's rendering (obviously, visualizing the sloping lid closed helps):


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I have no real problem with the hinged end. I didn't mention it as a problem.

You may not have mentioned it, but you appear to be ignoring that...it exists...and that...it solves the problem of carrying it under a person's arm.
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post #189 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Apple just uses processors that someone else makes. I think they use faster chips to help justify the cost of the machines, not necessarily to set some standard.

Sure, but they didn't just throw any old processor in there, especially with the Air, a machine of different compromises.

They weighed processing power, size, energy efficiency and heat displacement. Apple has generally shown itself to make smart technical decisions for the device at hand, thus their products are both compelling and very competitive.
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post #190 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sorry, but no.

I dislike having to jump in in mid-thread, especially when I have far fewer post than your 14,000+, but as an industrial designer of almost twenty years experience I can tell you flat out that wobegon is right here and you're pretty much wrong.

If I pointed out an object with the exact same shape and mass of a closed Air to 99% of the general public and asked them to pick it up and carry it for more than 10-15 seconds, I can guarantee you, through years of experience, that they'd pick it up exactly as wobegon is describing. Hinge end (the heaviest, widest, most comfortable in their hand) down and tapered opening edge up towards their armpit.

Johnathan Paul Ive would tell you exactly the same thing and I'm not one to doubt his (usual) brilliance. The Air, for me at least, having owned and used Apple machines since 1979, is a fabulous design. And is carried just like wobegon says. My $0.02 for what it's worth.
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post #191 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJJ View Post

I dislike having to jump in in mid-thread, especially when I have far fewer post than your 14,000+, but as an industrial designer of almost twenty years experience I can tell you flat out that wobegon is right here and you're pretty much wrong.

If I pointed out an object with the exact same shape and mass of a closed Air to 99% of the general public and asked them to pick it up and carry it for more than 10-15 seconds, I can guarantee you, through years of experience, that they'd pick it up exactly as wobegon is describing. Hinge end (the heaviest, widest, most comfortable in their hand) down and tapered opening edge up towards their armpit.

Johnathan Paul Ive would tell you exactly the same thing and I'm not one to doubt his (usual) brilliance. The Air, for me at least, having owned and used Apple machines since 1979, is a fabulous design. And is carried just like wobegon says. My $0.02 for what it's worth.

Thank you. My sanity-o-meter was dropping off into the distorted reality zone!

I also agree about the Air's industrial design. It embodies many peoples' visions of what computers of the future might look like, yet it's not some concept model for what "should be out in about...10 years, we swear!" It's the future today in many respects, just like the iPhone and Mac OS X Leopard (with Snow Leopard setting the ground work for major advancements and new paradigms).

The Air uses magnets instead of mechanical latches and power connectors that can break down over time; its revised MagSafe connector hides the cord, rather than awkwardly sticking out perpendicular to the case. It has an LED backlit display that comes on to full brightness instantly and lasts much longer than cathode; in sleep mode, an invisible LED shines through micro mesh. Its display and black backit keyboard slickly increase and decrease in brightness depending on ambient light. Thanks to the abandonment of a bulky removable battery and internal disc drive, and the addition of an optional SSD (which will likely become standard when solid-state DRAM gets to 128GB capacity and a lower price tag), its impressively lightweight, thin, and emits almost no noise, or heat for that matter. Finally, its overall enclosure with tapered edges looks and feels like it was crafted from one big hunk of solid aluminum and the little rounded black feet in combination with a sloping underside create the illusion of it floating/hovering just above the surface of a table or desk.

Where's the drooling smiley?
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post #192 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun View Post

When he says "same design," is he referring to the same color? Because the design of the MacBook Pro has completely changed since the PowerBook G4.

Just a few changes..

New Processors,
New Motherboard design,
New RAM,
New Keyboard design,
LED displays,
New Trackpad with MultiTouch,
iSight Camera added,
Magsafe connector added,
Backlight Keyboard added,
New Speakers and placement,
New Wi-FI 802.11n,
Bluetooth 2.1 added,
Firewire 800 port,
PCI express slot added,
Slimmer enclosure.

Basically, the only thing that has not changed since the original PowerBook G4 is the color.

I just don't get why people always say it has not been redesigned in ages.

Well, it seems some people are looking for a circular laptop-- to be called an iDisk if that name had not already been taken and iFrisbeee would be copyright infringement.
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post #193 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Those small margins are not being wasted. How do you know that tiny amount of room isn't serving as an air duct? Ever notice how hot the MacBook and especially the MacBook Pro get in contrast to the rather cool running Air?

If they had squared off the edges to resemble the rest of Apple's laptop line, which is comprised of a 3 year old MacBook case and nearly 5 year old MacBook Pro case, both of which are rather similar in overall look - rounded rectangles - the Air wouldn't feel nearly as thin and lightweight. They also would have had to make the large Multi-Touch track pad smaller. Tapered edges are more than just a talking piece.



The iPhone certainly does have something to do with Air. They're both made by the same company and they're both ultra-portable mobile WiFi devices that use Multi-Touch and eschew the use of discs in favor of digital distribution.

Apple's last three products/product revisions:

1) Aluminum iMac with its new curved back and clicky keyboard (which originally debuted on the MacBook).

2) MacBook Air with its tapered edges, clicky keyboard (again borrowed from the MacBook) w/ backlit keys (borrowed from the Alu PowerBook G4/MacBook Pro), Multi-Touch trackpad (that enabled some iPhone-like gestures), and MagSafe power connector (from the first MacBook Pro and shared w/ MacBook), and a magnetic latch (from the MacBook).

3) iPhone 3G with its tapered edges (borrowed from the MacBook Air).

See the trends?



I didn't mean to force anything and I don't think I was. I simply tried to point out what anyone with a brain and nerve endings would do if something felt uncomfortable to hold, i.e. they'd flip whatever it is around under their arm until it was comfortable.

We're also ignoring the fact that most people who carry around their laptop often usually get a neoprene sleeve at the very least, or put it into a messenger bag or backpack. In that context, the Air would more easily slide in and fit into places the more bulky, rectangular MacBook or MacBook Pro could not.



Both the MacBook Pro and the Air are unwieldy when held that way. Can both be held that way? Sure, but it's not a good idea.



What the heck's your definition of a teardrop shape?

Here's mine:
or

The Air most certainly is teardrop shaped. Look at THESE comparison photos or below at Apple's rendering (obviously, visualizing the sloping lid closed helps):




You may not have mentioned it, but you appear to be ignoring that...it exists...and that...it solves the problem of carrying it under a person's arm.

You're warping everything here.
post #194 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJJ View Post

I dislike having to jump in in mid-thread, especially when I have far fewer post than your 14,000+, but as an industrial designer of almost twenty years experience I can tell you flat out that wobegon is right here and you're pretty much wrong.

If I pointed out an object with the exact same shape and mass of a closed Air to 99% of the general public and asked them to pick it up and carry it for more than 10-15 seconds, I can guarantee you, through years of experience, that they'd pick it up exactly as wobegon is describing. Hinge end (the heaviest, widest, most comfortable in their hand) down and tapered opening edge up towards their armpit.

Johnathan Paul Ive would tell you exactly the same thing and I'm not one to doubt his (usual) brilliance. The Air, for me at least, having owned and used Apple machines since 1979, is a fabulous design. And is carried just like wobegon says. My $0.02 for what it's worth.

I've also done a fair deal of industrial design for some large companies over the years, as well as for my own electronics manufacturing concern. So I'm not speaking from an amateur viewpoint.

But, you are missing the point entirely. I'm not saying that one will want to pick up a laptop by the thinnest part. That is where you don't understand our argument.

He's saying that because of the design, you will pick the computer up with your hand under the hinged side. I agree! Amazing!

What I've also said it that one can, and often will, pick up other laptops by either the hinged side, or the latch side IF they are about the same in shape and weight. The Air, with its design, precludes that from happening.

Also, when I mention picking the machine up from an end, as I also mentioned, something that might be required upon OCCASION, the Air's design makes it very difficult.

You are both agreeing with what I'm saying without understanding what I'm saying, so you don't seem to realize it.
post #195 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You are both agreeing with what I'm saying without understanding what I'm saying, so you don't seem to realize it.



Back to whether the tapered edges and wide bezels are strictly necessary or not:

Mel, do you think that the Air's edges could be slightly less tapered and the bezels made smaller without the Air getting any thicker? I heavily doubt that - if Apple could have hit the same thickness whilst having smaller bezels, surely they would have - it would have made for a lighter machine after all.

It seems to me that Steve has this unfortunate obsession with extreme thinness. There's a point where making your product thinner forces compromises elsewhere that aren't worth it. I agree with you that it would be nice if the bezels of the Air were smaller. I think the reason that they are not smaller is that that would have forced the Air to be thicker and it's a shame they didn't choose to make that compromise.
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post #196 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

It seems to me that Steve has this unfortunate obsession with extreme thinness.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

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post #197 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post




Is that mean?
post #198 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You're warping everything here.

HOW!? Sheesh, I responded to the entirety of your post and you can't give me an example?

Maybe it's your perspective that's warped here.


EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You are both agreeing with what I'm saying without understanding what I'm saying, so you don't seem to realize it.

Whew, blowing my mind.

If we agree, how am I "warping everything" and you're not?

*cough* backpedalling *cough*
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post #199 of 312
So is consensus that this event will be early September, two separate events, or end of September. Munster said early...but doesn't have much evidence to back that up.
post #200 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaple View Post

So is consensus that this event will be early September, two separate events, or end of September. Munster said early...but doesn't have much evidence to back that up.

Why would a consensus of people who don't know anything matter?
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