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post #41 of 137
Once again, thank you! You saved me from having to post. As long as you don't need to join a domain, and don't care about the "Remote desktop" feature and a few other **MINOR** networking things, it is an identical OS.
post #42 of 137
Freakn' amazn. Everybody hate to pay more for less, but this is paying something for more. If you don't want it, don't buy it. If you cannot live until 10.2.1 then it is going to be short life. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> OOPs, did I let anything out of the bag suggesting that TENPOINTTWO is not the omega of existence. <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
"Run faster. History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it is never enough. You must also run." Leto Atreides II
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"Run faster. History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it is never enough. You must also run." Leto Atreides II
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post #43 of 137
Well, I was thinking, upgrading Mac OS 8.6 -&gt; 9.0 cost $99. Mac OS X 10.1 -&gt; 10.2 is probably similar, feature-wise. Some improvements, but nothing completely new.
post #44 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Keda:
<strong>They said that NeXt would make major releases w/a single decimal point (10.2) and minor releases w/double decimals (10.1.5).

...A friend of mine recently 'switched.' I think it was a month or two ago, so he is not eligible for the up-to-date. Welcome to Macintosh.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, NeXT, like other *nixes used full point upgrades as major ones. That seems to be the model Apple is working with now.

As far as the upgrade for your friend, wouldn't this also be true with Windows? I really don't know about what the upgrade policy is there. It would be a good comparison.
post #45 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Patchouli:
<strong>XP Home and XP Pro are identical OSs. The only difference is that the Pro version has more networking capabilities which the average home user will never need. Severe disadvantages?! Do tell.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Used XP? XP Home crippled compared to Pro. MS took features built into XP and just shut them off. Features That are important and useful are just gone. It goes way beyond "networking capabilities". Ever have to resize your partitions on the fly? This can be incredibly useful. Pro can do it, but Home taks it away. Remote desktop? Very useful and important to many. And as you say, many networking capabilites are gone. Other ommission are there too. So, if want Home, basically stripped of all the features of XP that actually make it useful, it's $99, want a working version it's $199.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #46 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Patchouli:
<strong>The only difference is that the Pro version has more networking capabilities which the average home user will never need.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Automated system recovery.
Multi-processor support.
Remote Desktop, networking, etc. (as mentioned)
Encryption.
Anything other than VERY basic multi-user support. (i.e. no group management).
Multiple languages.

Granted, a typical home user doesn't need much of this, but the differences are more than just a few networking issues.
post #47 of 137
I agree that apple needs to make money during the down times but they would probably make more money selling $30-70 upgrades than $130 full versions.

If the price is right more consumers will jump on the band wagon. Apple has to remember that the downturn in economy is also hurting the consumers pockets. To coax them to get their wallets out, you have to offer something within their price range.

Is there anyway to forward the contents of is thread to Mr. Jobs ?
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post #48 of 137
I'm not sure if anyone said this (quit reading about 1/2 way down sorry people below) Anyway, people are talking about how windows this and windows. Don't I mean (Pun way over used but) Apple to oranges. I mean you don't see a window user updating with every X.X.X Windows people Rarely update. I mean you dont see window users watching a skipping video feed of Billy talking about an upgrade. We are unique. We will all pay for Jaguar. People were building up 10.2 to be everything, They wanted OS11 but come on. And does it suck to pay, yes, but Don't be to worried if you couldn't afford it you wouldn't have bought mac, and if you really couldn't (IE Family consumer) You wouldn't need to upgrade. This Macworld was like no other, it did what apple needed to do. It allowed consumers to have choices. Ipod, ipod on PC, 17 iMac and 2 new iApps. I was happy about this. I mean look at what happened. I got off topic. Yeah, 10.2 isn't 11, and if cost is an issue as simple as Dont upgrade.

Just my bitching about your bitching
-MJE
post #49 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Fluffy:
<strong>

Automated system recovery.
Multi-processor support.
Remote Desktop, networking, etc. (as mentioned)
Encryption.
Anything other than VERY basic multi-user support. (i.e. no group management).
Multiple languages.

Granted, a typical home user doesn't need much of this, but the differences are more than just a few networking issues.</strong><hr></blockquote>System recovery is indeed part of XP Home. Also my sister has 4 users on her machine and they switch seamlessly and are easily maintained. The other mentioned items go along with what I said earlier - not for an average home user. The look, setup, feel, file system, and most of all - the stability are the same.
post #50 of 137
We paid full retail every year from 1997-2001 (except 2000) for Apple Mac OS updates. Why should 2002 be different? The only reason why we didn't pay in 2000 was because of the massive development on OS X.

1997 - Mac OS 8 - $99
1998 - Mac OS 8.5 - $99
1999 - Mac OS 9 - $99
2000 - Mac OS X Public Beta - $29
2001 - Mac OS X 10.0 - $129 ($30 coupon available for PB users)
2002 - Mac OS X Jaguar - $129

Inflation and development costs seem to justify the price to me. Consider Windows 2000 was $300, and XP Pro Upgrade is $200. Mac OS X Jaguar is a steal.
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post #51 of 137
Go Eugene!

Jag' IS a steal. Just how much more could Apple pack into one update? Rendevous looks amazing!

Stunning.

Can anybody ever remember a better Mac OS upgrade?

I can't.

Lemon Bon Bon
We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...
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We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...
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post #52 of 137
"Jaguar"? More like PUSSY. Can I justify upgrading from 10.1.&gt;
Lets take those super cool "new" features....

iChat - pretty interface, pretty useless.
check out MSN Messenger 3.0 Mac.
It does exactly what it says on the box.
Mail - Hmmm, I can get most of what I need
with Hotmail, Yahoo etc.
Address Book - Sorry, dont need it.
Sherlock 3 - Google Rocks!
QuickTime 6 - Now this has potential! Just wish more on-line streaming content providers used QuickTime instead of Real/WMP etc..
Finder - Pretty good.
Rendezvous - Very nice if your in business, otherwise <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Quartz Extreme - Nice but not essential.
Inkwell - Sorry, don't have a graphics tablet and don't need one.
Unix - The only thing I'm "Developing" is a headache.
Compatibility - The more compatible us Mac users can get with the dreaded "wintel" the better for us all.
Universal Access - Good, but should have been in previous versions.

...all said and done, its not bad but then for a full price upgrade, its not good either.
Apple, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Give us previous X users a proper discount or you may just have a warehouse full of "Jaguar" CD roms to shift as well as outdated hardware. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
post #53 of 137
Even though I didn't want to, I just ordered Jaguar for $69. The only problem is waiting til Aug. 24th.
post #54 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
1997 - Mac OS 8 - $99
1998 - Mac OS 8.5 - $99
1999 - Mac OS 9 - $99
2000 - Mac OS X Public Beta - $29
2001 - Mac OS X 10.0 - $129 ($30 coupon available for PB users)
2002 - Mac OS X Jaguar - $129
<hr></blockquote>

As Eugene shows, this is not such an odd price to pay for an OS upgrade that gives such functionality.

I can't believe that people whine so much about having to pay for an OS upgrade. Do the amortized math- this comes down to about 33 cents a day for an OS upgrade. If you can't afford that, then I hope that you aren't eating food.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Yevgeny ]</p>
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post #55 of 137
I remember that 8.5 was like a $100 upgrade from 8.1, right? This seems like it has a lot more improvements from 10.1 than 8.5 did over 8.1, at least as far as I remember.

Matthew
post #56 of 137
From the point of view of someone who has had the pleasure of project managing several large WIn95/NT4/Win2K projects, I'd just like to clarify a few things re: Jaguar vs. MS Service Packs.

Service Packs are very rarely used to deliver new functionality, unless MS is trying to pilot that functionality in the real world (e.g. DfS) because a more strategic project (e.g. Win2000) is running late.

More often than not, service packs are nothing more than double digit releases (i.e. 10.1.x), correcting some of the xxx,000 "issues" that were in Win2K prior to its (delayed) release, or addressing previously unknown security issues.

Jaguar - despite the name 10.2 - does have new functionality: the new .Mac; iSync, iCal, etc: If you want iSync (a free add-in), you pay the $129.00; if you don't, save your money and wait for 10.3 or 10.4 or until the value proposition "floats your boat", which may be OS XI (2004 is a solid bet as far as I'm concerned).

10.1.5 is perfectly OK as an OS and will still be OK as an OS for another 18 months.

And if you don't think MS charges for upgrades, what is the 31/07 deadline for Upgrade Advantage all about then?

As for free e-mail - I'm looking at Apple's web site and cannot find any reference to the company becoming a registered charity. Free e-mail was an abberation of the late nineties - a fact which is validated by the HotMail, Yahoo et al moving to commercial models.

Why should Apple pay money to provide expensive capital equipment, comms links, and management just so some cheapskates can exchange unfunny jokes with their mates?

Should their be .Mac and .Mac Pro is another issue? I think their should be Mail and iCal support for $60, whilst $99 buys you everything else.

Just my $0.02.
"There's no bigot like a religious bigot and there's no religion more fanatical than that espoused by Macintosh zealots." ~Martin Veitch, IT Week [31-01-2003]

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"There's no bigot like a religious bigot and there's no religion more fanatical than that espoused by Macintosh zealots." ~Martin Veitch, IT Week [31-01-2003]

"What's your point?" ~ Mark Solomon...
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post #57 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Patchouli:
<strong>System recovery is indeed part of XP Home.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My mistake, yeah it's on the CD, but not installed by default.

[quote]<strong>Also my sister has 4 users on her machine and they switch seamlessly and are easily maintained.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure it works, but the support for administration of the accounts is severely lacking, as is the ability to restrict parts of the system in anything other than a general way.

Oh yeah, XP Home also does not support dual displays from a single adapter. (It can be done I've heard, just not elegantly or easily.)

I'm not saying XP is complete crap (other than the UI of course), I'm just saying that there are a lot of differences between the two versions, differences that can show up at inopportune times, even for basic home users.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Fluffy ]</p>
post #58 of 137
am surprised there is no upgrade price in addition to the full price. but my wife is still a student, so i'll get it at the educational discount.

but it does suck for everyone else.

you can do what i used to do when i couldn't afford software... find friends and split the cost. yeah, it's not very legal, but it's MORE legal than other methods (and you can still get some support, manuals, upgrades, etc.)

just a thought. and, uh, you didn't hear this from me.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #59 of 137
SWEET! My parents ordered a new iBook 5 minutes ago! (Guess who's gonna get the reciept and proof of purchase?) ME, that's right! LOL, now I can upgrade to Jag for the $20! Sweet!!!!! I was trying to plot out how I would manage this. Awsome!
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When it's my turn to be God you're going to be in real trouble...
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post #60 of 137
[quote] I can not believe how truly clueless some of you are when it comes to Wintel world! <hr></blockquote>

Well, this is a Mac forum so take your Wintel rear out of here if you can't stand it.
post #61 of 137

"...Now they are using the X machine, we shall make them pay dearly, the fools, and we'll be filthy rich I tell you! AAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAA"
post #62 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:
<strong>SWEET! My parents ordered a new iBook 5 minutes ago! (Guess who's gonna get the reciept and proof of purchase?) ME, that's right! LOL, now I can upgrade to Jag for the $20! Sweet!!!!! I was trying to plot out how I would manage this. Awsome!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Man, you're lucky.
post #63 of 137
As for free e-mail - I'm looking at Apple's web site and cannot find any reference to the company becoming a registered charity. Free e-mail was an abberation of the late nineties - a fact which is validated by the HotMail, Yahoo et al moving to commercial models.

My new (long established) free email service is fine for me, so I won't need .Mac. However,
a free Mac.com email address was part of iTools, free with every Mac purchase, like my iBook. Mac.com was a selling point, a reason to buy a Mac, much like the iApps. Perhaps "free iApps" are an aberration of the early 00's, and Apple should charge additional fees for iTunes, iPhoto, et al. After all, where in Apple's web site do they say they're a charity. "C'mon Apple, I want to additional fees for iPhoto, iTunes, Watson doh I mean Sherlock 3, and Fire,err, iChat. You can't just give them away!" Just think of all the profit Apple can generate, making all of us happy.
post #64 of 137
The fact that everyone is bitching about paying means that Apple has done a good job on developing something people want and need.

After all, if everyone were saying, "Well, I'll just stick with 10.1.5 for now, and see what happens," then I'd be worried.

Face it, we'll all pay because 10.2 is just that much better than 10.1.5.....

TING5
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- I used to be SdC, ting5, and YAR, but I'm sticking to Jet, I promise.
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post #65 of 137
I bought an iBook a few months ago (the "Circuit City Special" )

Dangit, if I was rich I'd pay $129 just for the box Now, I may buy it yet since I'm going to college, but Pat on TechT... I mean PeeCeeTV was right, this is going to be the most pirated OS ever, at least in Mac land.

I don't suppose the ol' CheckForOSX file is still there? Wouldn't it be great to borrow a Jag CD and just zap one file, image, and burn! This I appreciated, so I could make OS X boot discs. How do you make a Jaguar boot disc?

Damn that CD looks cool... Now it needs hardware to run on.
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post #66 of 137
I wonder what M$ will say now...!
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
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post #67 of 137
...wow, I didn't know there were so many cheap a-holes in the world. They'll spend 40 large on their jacked up station wagons but won't drop $129 on a bad ass upgrade. I guess the high gas prices couple with the poor mileage is putting the squeeze on.

Shit, who am I kidding. I bet the average age of the whiners is 17.5 years old. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #68 of 137
<a href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/" target="_blank">www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/</a>

Apparently it's $19.95 if you bought a new comp in the last 6 months...Can I use my p4 system?

Could they possibly chArge any moRe foR A simple point release? I understand the required development Costs but $129.00 seems just a little bit excessive. I guess not many people are purcHasing new macinOshes to justify R&D for a free update.
kthxbye.

[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: cowofwar ]</p>
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post #69 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by mooseman:
<strong>.
Shit, who am I kidding. I bet the average age of the whiners is 17.5 years old. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I happen to be 17.2 years old thank you.

&lt;planning on buying jaguar, not .Mac&gt;
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post #70 of 137
I think those of us that jumped on the OS X bandwagon when it first came out feel like we're being punished for not waiting until 10.2. Why should we have to pay for a full upgrade like the OS 9.2 users? We've already invested in OS X. Current OS X users should get an "upgrade" price. As much as I like the features of OS X.2, I'm not going to fork out an additional $129 on the same OS.
post #71 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by cowofwar:
Could they possibly chArge any moRe foR A simple point release? I understand the required development Costs but $129.00 seems just a little bit excessive. I guess not many people are purcHasing new macinOshes to justify R&D for a free update.
kthxbye.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #72 of 137
It seems to me Apple is really pushing OS X. Duh. So they can't release 10.5 now and XI in January. They need to play out the OS X moniker and garner name recognition. Some dumbass "Apple Specialist" at CompUSA actually called it OS "ex" 10.2 instead of 10.5 is for meatheads like him. We'll be stuck with 10.x.x for quite some time folks.
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post #73 of 137
[quote]Originally posted by RevEvs:
<strong>Well, went to check the UK edu store to see the prices, and as usual in the UK we are being screwed!

US Edu price: $69
UK edu price: £70!

£70 = $110!


anf then none of the features in Sherlock 3 are going to work in the UK, as usual, and iphoto's prints features probably wont work.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yup,
We get way screwed here. It's partly due to 18% VAT plus "other". Its even more expensive on the high streets ('main' streets for yanks)

if you want a laptop, you can buy a low season ticket to NYC and buy it there for the same cost as london.
post #74 of 137
[quote] Apparently it's $19.95 if you bought a new comp in the last 6 months <hr></blockquote>

from Apple's site:
[quote] Apple would like to give you the opportunity to upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 Jaguar. Customers who purchase a qualifying new Macintosh computer on or after July 17, 2002, that does not have Mac OS X v10.2 Jaguar included can upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 Jaguar for US$19.95.* See Terms and Conditions for program details. <hr></blockquote>

I wish you were right. A friend of mine 'switched' two months ago. I am the one who introduced him to the Mac and have helped him along since. Now, he has to pay $130 to upgrade a brand new dual-gig PM!?

Thats just not right. Ive used X since PB and wish it were an upgrade price for me, but my friend has a new machine. I think Apple is going to put a bad taste into the mouths of their new customers. Who wouldn't be pissed about having to pay $130 right after a $3000 purchase.

Look at the 'Up-To-Date' rules. They only count if you bought a Mac yesterday or sooner <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
post #75 of 137
what am i gonna do with the three coupons that came with the imac 3 months ago?


frame them!
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iMac Newbie and now with an ibook G4 1.2G too
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post #76 of 137
Here's why paying full price for an upgrade sucks...

1) Windows has an "upgrade" price that is different than the full price.

2) Linux has a free upgrade price. This is somewhat important to note, since OS X is built on top of a unix platform. (Hence, many of the "upgrades" were built by people other than Apple employees)

3) Quartz Extreme... Jeez, in every other operating system, the company making the cards provide support for the video cards. It seems that Apple can (and probably did) negotiate for the videocard makers to write most of that software.

4) Rendezvous... this better be pretty revolutionary since it's an utter breeze to set up networked file systems on Linux. I can't believe what a PITA it is to use NFS on OS X.

5) Improved Mail client. Whoopee... you can get a fairly decent mail client for free on any other OS.

I could go on and on about the other "150" features that Apple is providing. As many have noted, most of the supposed features are things that other vendors supply for free now. It's not my fault that Apple is ramping up the learning curve and figuring out how to build unix apps. Yes, most of this software should have been in the 10.1 release.

Now, I know that Apple did do some work beyond and above what other vendors provide and they definitely should be compensated for it. However, the bulk of the work that they have done (converting the system to unix) was covered in 10.0, and they should definitely charge full price for anybody converting up from OS 9.

Don't get me wrong, I would have no troubles payin $129 for an upgrade from 10.1.5 to 10.2, but people going from OS 9 to 10.2 should then be paying something like $199.

Finally, Apple is having a rough time in the business sector and they need to prop up revenues. Charging their entire client base $129 for a system upgrade is a great way to do that, but it's incredibly shortsighted. What will the average customer think? Gee, I better not buy now, because I'll get screwed if Apple comes out with something new. Just imagine how those who bought on July 16th felt. Do you think they are happy about having to shell out another $129 just because they decided to buy a day too early? How about those who buy on July 17th and find out, whoops, they didn't get 10.2. Now they have to pay an extra $20 just to get what should have been included. Hmm, I wonder how many people might postpone that order...
post #77 of 137
Think of this more as Mac OS X 2.0. With an upgraded kernel, major changes to the user interface, and added features (including more iApps), that's a more accurate description based on the numbering scheme we were used to back in the old days. Then, you would pay $99 for a new copy of System 7, 7.5, 8, 8.5, 9. The only reason Apple was compelled to release 10.1 for "free" is that 10.0 was such of such obvious pre-release quality.

Not that I'm happy to have to shell out $129 for a new OS, $49 to keep my iDisk/HomePage, and $29 to upgrade QuickTime (again), but this upgrade price is not exactly inconsistent with past behavior.
post #78 of 137
OS 9 was released 4 YEARS AGO. Prices go up. Little kids ( or grownups that haven't ) don't want to pay for anything and have Apple float the bill, All this because Apple offered you a chance to get started early with OS X.

We have been over this so much that threads like this have worn a hole in the ground. Some people just don't want to pay for things and always get it free.

Wouldn't it be nice if all those people at Apple that just worked so hard to produce this worked for free ( for us ).

Well, I want a girl friend that looks like a model, has the brain of Einstein, the soul of a poet, and always loves me no matter what. Think I'm going to get that? This thread is extra childish and extra stupid.

[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #79 of 137
Sp Apple release five 10.1.x releases for free and as soon as they come out with a major upgrade to the OS people complain. I think it is time for people to start to grow up. The last paid OS Apple released was 10.0.0 itself, unless you waited for 10.1 and in this case it is your problem that you will have to pay for 10.2.

Just my 2¢
post #80 of 137
[quote]what am i gonna do with the three coupons that came with the imac 3 months ago?<hr></blockquote>

They will come in handy when you run out of toilet paper.

Thats what I am going to do for my 33 day old machine.
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