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Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia, NATO, Israel, etc.

post #1 of 93
Thread Starter 
Is the conflict with Georgia, and Russia part of something larger?

What are your thoughts concerning this troubling conflict?

Fellows
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Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #2 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Is the conflict with Georgia, and Russia part of something larger?

What are your thoughts concerning this troubling conflict?

Fellows

This has Zbigniew Brzezinski written all over it. Russia has been tarred as the villain of the piece in the US media, but it was Georgia, as the US mainstream press predictably failed to report, who was the aggressor, by attacking Russian forces in S. Ossetia... which have been there on peacekeeping duties for some 15 years. Then of course, its an oil issue...
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #3 of 93
Let's see if I got this straight:
  • Georgia broke away from Russia.
  • South Ossetians want to break away from Georgia and be part of Russia.
  • Georgia started the war.
  • The US is flying Georgian troops back to Georgia.
  • That is as far as we should go, except diplomatically.

From two other posts I submitted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

For conspiracy nuts everywhere:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...EDCD129NI4.DTL

and last but not least:

http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/2..._feels_wro.php

Fellows

Which is understandable if one also realizes that the United States and Israel backed Georgia in the first place.

This isn't conspiracy theory, it's fact. The fact that whether the MSM media reports it or not isn't the question.

I find it interesting that there hasn't been a single topic or post regarding the Georgia/Russian/USA/Israel "situation" here. Yes, it's complicated and hard to understand in political terms, but it's the same thing...oil, power and money.

Quote:
Israel Has $1 Billion Invested in Georgia 10 Aug 2008 The Israeli-Georgia connection is estimated to be worth $1 billion, according to a former Georgian ambassador to Israel. The Jewish state and private investors have provided military assistance and advisers to Georgia, where pipelines pump oil destined for Israel. A new pipeline is being built to bypass Russian territory. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that Israeli companies in Georgia have begun evacuating their staff and that Israeli tourists are leaving for home.

The reason Israel is involved is they get most of their oil supplies from there; its just a continuation of the past discontent between Russia and Georgia. These two entities have been at it for years of course.

Also, it seems that Bush, Cheney, and the Neocons have lost another "war".

On the surface (especially in portrayed in the MSM) it only seems to be only a Georgian/Russian conflict, but it is so much larger. And yet still relative to almost every other situation dealing with those three things; oil, power and money.

Unfortunately these behaviors and events all eventually have the same results...

post #4 of 93
The Russians should make it more clear and just paint "Gazprom Security Force" on the side of their tanks and planes. Maybe the Russian soldiers could wear white golf shirts with "Gazprom" embroidered on them?
post #5 of 93
post #6 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

  • South Ossetians want to break away from Georgia and be part of Russia.

Independent republic, if I understand correctly.
post #7 of 93
So more Israeli US meddling in a foreign country for oil, while ordinary citizens pick up the tab for the conflict with their lives.

However, isn't it interesting that the US managed to deliver aid and supplies into a foreign country half way around the world as soon as the fighting stopped - One word..Katrina.
post #8 of 93
Reprint from the other thread in response to Artman:

---

Georgia wanted friends. As a country that was trying to get into NATO I don't see why the US wouldn't support them. Or why Isreal wouldn't sell them UAVs.

Note that neither country sold them advanced weapons like tanks or aircraft. Georgians are mostly light infantry with a few old Soviet era tanks and aircraft. Georgia wanted modern western weapons. They got training instead. That's pretty reasonable.

It's not complicated at all. Georgia wanted in NATO and EU because they don't want to be a Russian province. It is pro west and a democracy. We support them and they're a nice friend to have because it allows a non-Russian controlled pipeline and you need Abkhazia for that.

There's chunks of territory that is theirs that the Russians wanted and took. They tried to take it back. They lost. That's not "invading" anyone. That's defending your territorial sovereignty. At a particularly stupid time. Saakashvili really screwed up.

You can argue that those provinces should have been Russian to begin with but geez, then Russia should have kept them in the first place during the break up. What is fact today is that the territory is Georgian and the Russians are trying to take them away.

There's a real reason that Georgia wants to keep South Ossetia (aside from what might be in the ground there). Without it Tbilisi is within shouting range of the Russian border. The Russians claim to be paranoid about Germany and France historically invading them but the little tiny countries around Russia know about Russian and Soviet occupation and oppression. They're more than a little paranoid having been there and done that.

The Russians have been selling advanced weapons to Iran. It's always about power and money. Screw Russia. They sure as hell aren't our friends.
post #9 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This has Zbigniew Brzezinski written all over it. Russia has been tarred as the villain of the piece in the US media, but it was Georgia, as the US mainstream press predictably failed to report, who was the aggressor, by attacking Russian forces in S. Ossetia... which have been there on peacekeeping duties for some 15 years. Then of course, its an oil issue...

It was a stupid gamble on the part of the Georgians and they lost but S. Ossetia is within their territorial borders. You can claim that the Russians are doing no more than we did for Kosovo but the Serbs were engaging in active "ethnic cleansing".

Russian "peace keepers" is a debatable term. I suppose Russian troops in Chechnya were "peace keepers" too. If S. Ossetia should go "independent" then Chechnya should as well.

IMHO the Russia (as a country, not as a people) is a thug with a thin veneer of kulturney. The Russian Federation is nothing more than the Russian Empire with a different name.
post #10 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Let's see if I got this straight:[LIST][*]Georgia broke away from Russia.

Georgia did not break away from Russia. Georgia was part of the USSR which dissolved. The Georgian borders were accepted by the Russian Federation and the international community.

The Russian Empire annexed Ossetia in 1801...along with Georgia.

Quote:
[*]South Ossetians want to break away from Georgia and be part of Russia.

As did Chechnya from Russia. However the difference is that the S. Ossetian indepence movement has not been diplomatically acknowledged by any country in the UN.

There's still a largish Georgian population in S. Ossetia. The Georgian population wants to remain Georgian rather than Russian. This is why the independence referendum was rejected by the international community. They excluded ethnic Georgians from voting in the referendum by simply not polling there.

The georgians are scattered across S. Ossetia and were about 25% of the population.

Quote:
[*]Georgia started the war.

Yes. Not much of a war though. However, if the Russians had been replaced by an EU peacekeeping force this probably never would have happened.

However, giving Russian citizenship to S. Ossetians is not a "neutral" act. It's called "annexation".

Quote:
[*]The US is flying Georgian troops back to Georgia.[*]That is as far as we should go, except diplomatically.

Diplomatically we should pound the hell out of the Russians for attacking our ally and a pro-western democratic government. They can take S. Ossetia from the Georgians but they should pay as heavy a price as we can manage.

Militarily we should do no more than we've done thus far.
post #11 of 93
McCain: Open mouth, insert foot:

Quote:
"In The 21st Century Nations Don't Invade Other Nations."

I guess he is forgetting about Afghanistan and Iraq. \

As Chomsky said, since there is a built-in "we own the world" mentality, these people don't even view invading Iraq or Afghanistan as an invasion of other nations. They just view it like evicting a tenant in a property that you own.
post #12 of 93
We obviously invaded Iraq.

Afghanistan is a bit of grey area. We didn't invade so much as bomb them so the Northern Alliance and others could beat the Taliban. I think you can waffle out of being considered an invader on that one since we didn't have more than some SOF troops involved.

We picked a side in a civil war.

If the Russians had ONLY used air power and Spetsnaz I would think that the S. Ossetians would have won and there'd have been no "Russian Invasion" meme going on.

It's really hard to win battles whenever you gather your forces someone bombs them into dust. The S. Ossetians would have faced no real concentration of Georgian forces and with the Spetsnaz to coordinate air strikes and to, well, kick some butt, the S. Ossetians would have given Russia a lot more political wiggle room and still cowed the Baltic states, Ukraine and other former soviet states.

Sov...excuse me...Russian tanks rolling into Georgia brings to mind only one thing. Hungary 1956.
post #13 of 93
You know, it's really easy for Russia to get away with doing a really nasty thing to Georgia because of Iraq. This is what happens when you surrender the moral high ground.

That said, we REALLY are still the good guys. If you don't believe it, try being a political dissident in China or Russia. The only GOOD thing you can say about the Russians is that Kasparov is still alive. If you believe Oleg Kalugin, probably not for very much longer.

Schcekochikhin. Dead.
Litvenenko. Dead.
Yushchenkov. Dead.
post #14 of 93
Not surprised that a quarter of Russians blame U.S. for conflict.

Quote:
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russians blame the United States and Georgia for triggering the conflict in Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, with just one percent pointing the finger at Moscow, an opinion poll showed on Wednesday.

When asked who was guilty for the conflict in South Ossetia, 54 percent of those polled blamed Georgia and another 22 percent blamed the United States, a survey carried out by Russia's largest pollsters VTsIOM showed.

A further 12 percent said Russia, South Ossetia and Georgia were jointly responsible for the conflict, it said.

Pravda and the other Russian news agencies have been reporting that the US is behind it all.

The evidence is persuasive and growing that Russia planned and instigated this war.

Just who is to blame for the Russian Georgian conflict?
post #15 of 93
Poland, U.S. sign missile shield deal.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...eld/index.html

A big ol' FU to the Sovi...er Russians. I wonder how much we sweetened the deal to get Poland to sign up this week.
post #16 of 93
..and the US claims the timing of the Polish missile deal this week was not intended to upset anybody...

 

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post #17 of 93
So, are they going to find Ossetians in danger in Poland now?
post #18 of 93
A Russian general sorta said that Poland was now open to attack, including nukes:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815/...X1sTb4ofus0NUE

Very awkward timing. Not exactly when you want to piss off a bear.


----

Rice is giving a news conference now asking Russian forces to leave immediately, peace-keepers to go in, and for us not to return to the ways of 1968.

This is getting big, fast.

 

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post #19 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Poland, U.S. sign missile shield deal.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...eld/index.html

A big ol' FU to the Sovi...er Russians. I wonder how much we sweetened the deal to get Poland to sign up this week.

I'm going to guess the Russian invasion of Georgia was all that was needed to sweeten the deal.
post #20 of 93


In the light of recent developments, the ominous warnings presented in this book should have gained greater weight. For anybody who wishes to understand what's going on in Putin's Russia, this book is a must. Hope my friend still has his copy.
post #21 of 93
The pot called the kettle black.

The summary is a big fsck you to the citizens / human beings who for some reason continue to be sheeple and vote for !#!@s.
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #22 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Very awkward timing. Not exactly when you want to piss off a bear.

In a conventional fight Bear loses and he knows it. Iraq or no Iraq, all the new oil money has not translated into stronger military yet.

Pushing around tiny countries like Georgia is one thing. Poland is a NATO nation.

Quote:
Rice is giving a news conference now asking Russian forces to leave immediately, peace-keepers to go in, and for us not to return to the ways of 1968.

This is getting big, fast.

Nah. The Russains can feel all badass now. It'll blow over.
post #23 of 93
Blowback From Bear-Baiting

Quote:
Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

I will bet that a poll of joe-blow American would tell us that 95% of the public believes that Russia started this conflict, without a doubt - whereas the opposite is the case.
post #24 of 93
Nonsense. Gazprom/Russia has had this in the planning all along. They did some false flag operations to goad Georgia and now useful idiots are here to say Georgia is the aggressor.
post #25 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Nonsense. Gazprom/Russia has had this in the planning all along. They did some false flag operations to goad Georgia and now useful idiots are here to say Georgia is the aggressor.

Commentary: Russian bombs' message is 'this is for America'

Quote:
"This is for America. This is for NATO. This is for Bush."

These were the phrases that the president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvilli, told me were on Russian bombs falling before, during and after the numerous cease-fires that have come and gone since the Georgian-Russian conflict began.

He went on to say that he believed the Russians were not fighting a war with Georgia; in reality, they were fighting a war against the idea of Georgia, the governing principles behind it.

To have a flourishing democracy in a neighboring country is seen as a threat. It is a stark contrast from Russia's brand of state-controlled pseudo-capitalism. The Russians, he said, "want to kill the idea of freedom, and by proxy they imagine they fight a war with the United States."

Although the name Georgia is familiar to the United States, the country isn't. Most Americans don't know its remarkable story. The first time I spoke to Saakashvilli a few months earlier, it was under much more pleasant circumstances. I found him to be a young, energetic and well-spoken reformer who in many ways understands our founding fathers better than most Americans.

post #26 of 93
Russians 'Seize US Weapons Depot'

Quote:
Russia claims to have seized a large depot of US-made arms near the Georgian town of Senaki

\
post #27 of 93
This in my opinion this is exactly what may have happened to start the conflict between Russia.

http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/wag_the_dog.php
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #28 of 93
Quote:

Exactly. The Soviets don't want Georgia to rule itself so they invaded. Now they demolishing the infrastructure of Georgia. The goal is to bring down the current government and install a puppet (again).
post #29 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Exactly. The Soviets don't want Georgia to rule itself so they invaded. Now they demolishing the infrastructure of Georgia. The goal is to bring down the current government and install a puppet (again).

Quote:
(again)

What makes you not think the Georgian president isn't an installed puppet for the U.S. (or do you)?

Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia

12 year old girl:

Quote:
I was running from Georgian troops, not Russian troops. I'd like to thank the Russian troops for helping out.

Commentator:

Quote:
dead silence.

When the aunt starts talking about how Georgia started the conflict...

Commentator:

Quote:
I'd never cut you off, but we're going to commercial in 4 seconds whether we like it or not.

Aunt's response:

Quote:
Yeah, I know you don't want to hear that.

Fox aired the whole conversation, even when the kid and the aunt went way out of their way to point out how much they love Russia. I give Fox at least a little bit of credit where it's due here.

There are 1440 minutes in the day. Why oh why do they only give four of them to actual witnesses of this conflict and hundreds of them to "commentators" who haven't a clue?
post #30 of 93
You linked to the Soviet you tube site
post #31 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

You linked to the Soviet you tube site

LOL! Of an interview from Fox News LOL!

Here's where I guess a picture will fuckin' explain things for you...



Plainview: Drainage! Drainage, Eli, you boy. Drained dry. I'm so sorry. Here, if you have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake, and I have a straw. There it is, that's a straw, you see? You watching?. And my straw reaches acroooooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake...
I... drink... your... milkshake!
[sucking sound]
Plainview: I drink it up!
Eli Sunday: Don't bully me, Daniel!
post #32 of 93
Ask yourself this. The Russians control your home town. They are destroying country, ruining the infrastructure. With tanks parked near by someone sticks a camera in your face and asks "Who's to blame" what are you gonna say?
post #33 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

LOL! Of an interview from Fox News LOL!

Here's where I guess a picture will fuckin' explain things for you...



Plainview: Drainage! Drainage, Eli, you boy. Drained dry. I'm so sorry. Here, if you have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake, and I have a straw. There it is, that's a straw, you see? You watching?. And my straw reaches acroooooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake...
I... drink... your... milkshake!
[sucking sound]
Plainview: I drink it up!
Eli Sunday: Don't bully me, Daniel!

Damn you Artman! I could already watch Daniel Day Lewis all day long and then YOU have to go and remind me that I have that movie on my DVR.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #34 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Ask yourself this. The Russians control your home town. They are destroying country, ruining the infrastructure. With tanks parked near by someone sticks a camera in your face and asks "Who's to blame" what are you gonna say?

They were interviewed in San Francisco mydo.

Question is mydo is who started it. They were being bombed by Georgian troops, it's not like they're going to come to Georgia's defense.
post #35 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

They were interviewed in San Francisco mydo.

Question is mydo is who started it. They were being bombed by Georgian troops, it's not like they're going to come to Georgia's defense.

Gazprom started it. Russian special forces train some locals to stir up some trouble and force Georgia's hand.

I'm really people? Poor old Soviets have to move in to stop "genocide" by the "aggressive" Georgians that are "blood thirsty" and "out of control".


Why did they sink the coast guard boats no where near Ossetia? The big white ones that only serve civilian uses? Those must have been the genocide coast guard boats!
post #36 of 93
The Georgian president is a rube. He is a pawn. He was an idiot thinking the powers that be (USA) would be behind him all the way.

So he's schooled by the other power that be (Russia). While Israel (another power that be) watches and waits, for their oil.

All the powers that be; America looking, talking an acting like fools. Russia being more and more like their old selves again. And Georgia having to deal with their stupidity.*

The world is run by gangsters serious, wealthy, greedy, military gangsters.

I can choose no side.

* ...and idiot Glen Beck needs to shut the fuck up.

UPDATE: Ok, I'll give France props for now...but I think it's all for that milkshake Plainview was ranting about...
post #37 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

UPDATE: Ok, I'll give France props for now...but I think it's all for that milkshake Plainview was ranting about...

I was shooting some pool with a poli sci friend last night, and he wondered aloud if what the US is feeling right now is the same thing England felt 50 years ago.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #38 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I was shooting some pool with a poli sci friend last night, and he wondered aloud if what the US is feeling right now is the same thing England felt 50 years ago.

I'm reminded of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. From some accounts, Saddam Hussein actually thought the U.S. would let him do this because of the support he had received against Iran. (Man, I think the U.S. is going to hold a grudge against Iran as long as they have against Cuba). So he was pretty surprised when the U.S. were pissed at him. Much like the Georgian president can't figure out why the U.S. didn't back him after he had sent a large number of troops to support the U.S. in Iraq.

History (and stupidity) doth repeat itself. \

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to watch Hot Shots Part Deux.
post #39 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Much like the Georgian president can't figure out why the U.S. didn't back him after he had sent a large number of troops to support the U.S. in Iraq.

I suppose we could spare SDW2001, but the other troops are otherwise engaged, I expect.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #40 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

..
The world is run by gangsters serious, wealthy, greedy, military gangsters.

I can choose no side.

I sure can. The one that's closer to democracy which is not Don Putin.
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