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Fourth iPhone 2.1 beta takes out push notification feature

post #1 of 62
Thread Starter 
A new test version of Apple's next iPhone firmware update has disabled a key service that will allow background data for native apps, with no clear sign of when it will return.

While beta 4 of the iPhone 2.1 update comes with Apple's typically unspecific references to bug fixes, it explicitly withdraws support for the push notification service that will send Internet data to third-party apps even while they are shut down.

The feature has been present from beta 1 onwards and is still poised to supply directional GPS data as part of its upgrades.

Apple provides little explanation for the removal and says only that the notification code has been pulled for "further development" inside the company -- with no mention of whether it will reappear in a future beta.

Taking the service out of the beta version puts non-Apple developers at a temporary loss, making it impractical for them to further development of new apps and updates that will depend on live, always-on data until the feature is returned to these handsets.

The final version of iPhone 2.1 is nonetheless planned for an appearance sometime in September.
post #2 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Taking the service out of the beta version puts non-Apple developers at a temporary loss, making it impractical for them to further development of new apps and updates that will depend on live, always-on data until the feature is returned to these handsets.

Not taking a service that isn't ready or that is buggy out would have been the better solution? If the feature needs further development then why would developers want to mess with it at this point? Out sequence. First things first.
post #3 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon View Post

Not taking a service that isn't ready or that is buggy out would have been the better solution? If the feature needs further development then why would developers want to mess with it at this point? Out sequence. First things first.

Considering safari just crashed on my iPhone while I was attempting to compose a reply, I also applaud a return to releasing on reasonably unbuggy software.
post #4 of 62
The iPhone software as it stands is the worst crap Apple's ever released, at least in my memory. The fact that thousands of people are reporting in Apple's forum alone regarding having to constantly reinstall their entire phone over an as-yet not understood app synching bug that causes each and every app to crash until a phone wipe says that the Apple has fallen a great distance from its tree. Personally, I am simply hoping for a return to the reliable, solid OS foundation that made iPhone OS 1 a joy to use for the tasks it was designed to accomplish. This is still a phone, it needs responsive menus (including contacts), and things that run on it should run like it's an appliance. This is a major differentiator between Apple products and other crap most of us were stuck with in what we thought was our past and it should be given Apple's absolute highest priority now or we'll just be dealing with another Microsoft or Sony in the eyes of the consumer the company's in the process of trying to capture. The iPhone is the first device most will use from Apple, and it will most certainly be the last if some major bugs (3G/EDGE fringe zone call handling also) are not resolved immediately and given the kind of personal attention and communication Apple reps give when you call Apple Care. Hiding in a cave and providing sparse, vague feedback won't make it go away and it won't make Apple's most loyal customers continue their allegiance.
post #5 of 62
I'm just wondering if Apple is handpicking developers to receive the beta because I am in the iPhone Developer program ($99) and I do not see it when I log in.

Or is it just for ADC Premier and Select members?
post #6 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

The iPhone software as it stands is the worst crap Apple's ever released, at least in my memory. The fact that thousands of people are reporting in Apple's forum alone regarding having to constantly reinstall their entire phone over an as-yet not understood app synching bug that causes each and every app to crash until a phone wipe says that the Apple has fallen a great distance from its tree. Personally, I am simply hoping for a return to the reliable, solid OS foundation that made iPhone OS 1 a joy to use for the tasks it was designed to accomplish. This is still a phone, it needs responsive menus (including contacts), and things that run on it should run like it's an appliance. This is a major differentiator between Apple products and other crap most of us were stuck with in what we thought was our past and it should be given Apple's absolute highest priority now or we'll just be dealing with another Microsoft or Sony in the eyes of the consumer the company's in the process of trying to capture. The iPhone is the first device most will use from Apple, and it will most certainly be the last if some major bugs (3G/EDGE fringe zone call handling also) are not resolved immediately and given the kind of personal attention and communication Apple reps give when you call Apple Care. Hiding in a cave and providing sparse, vague feedback won't make it go away and it won't make Apple's most loyal customers continue their allegiance.

I think this more of a hardware issue.

Immature, poorly made components assembled in a hurry. I'm sure the testers are getting a lot of random results, its a product produced 'down' to a price point...with the obvious results.
post #7 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

I think this more of a hardware issue.

I think you might be right regarding the 3G issues, but unfortunately the app issues are not the result of hardware problems. The work I've been doing to work around the bug reveals a problem with simple file naming and/or pointers and what iTunes does with application files being synched with devices and with the store itself, along with updates that come through. It's almost looking like the application icon is built on the phone during sync but the pointer references a file that doesn't exist on the iPhone (ie one without a number appended to it). What's bad is the underlying OS doesn't seem to have any form of recovery, because from that point on no apps can be loaded excepting the core applications which come as part of the base software.

I wish we could blame Infineon for poor OS design but unfortunately this looks like a test scenario that simply was overlooked in haste.

For those of us that have suffered from this issue, for EVERY failure it has cost us the 2 hours to completely erase our phones followed by having to set our phones up from scratch because we can't use the backup (try this with 60 apps). I can't count on my phone to store data. The only app I can trust using that stores data on the phone is OmniFocus because their team was smart enough to use server-side sync for all the data. If everyone did that, it would be fantastic.
post #8 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

I think you might be right regarding the 3G issues, but unfortunately the app issues are not the result of hardware problems. The work I've been doing to work around the bug reveals a problem with simple file naming and/or pointers and what iTunes does with application files being synched with devices and with the store itself, along with updates that come through. It's almost looking like the application icon is built on the phone during sync but the pointer references a file that doesn't exist on the iPhone (ie one without a number appended to it). What's bad is the underlying OS doesn't seem to have any form of recovery, because from that point on no apps can be loaded excepting the core applications which come as part of the base software.

I wish we could blame Infineon for poor OS design but unfortunately this looks like a test scenario that simply was overlooked in haste.

fair enough, i bow to your superior knowledge
post #9 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

The iPhone software as it stands is the worst crap Apple's ever released, at least in my memory. The fact that thousands of people are reporting in Apple's forum alone regarding having to constantly reinstall their entire phone over an as-yet not understood app synching bug that causes each and every app to crash until a phone wipe says that the Apple has fallen a great distance from its tree.

Most of the discussions have nothing to do with having to constantly reistall

In fact, most of the problems would have been resolved or wouldn't have crept up at all if more had followed directions in the first place or simply used HELP.

Funny that the USER satisfaction studies show that the iPhone is getting near or over 90% favorable results on basically everything about the product.

With the 8-9-10 million iPhones out there now, there are sure to be issues. But as anybody that has taken the time to peruse the discussion forums, disregard the redundant comments, those losing data by "replacing" rather than "merging" during the syncing process, and the best example of just an ignorant complaint, "Just today alone my apps has been set to USA $ and now its in German. how do i get it back to UK ££? iTunes also changes language," and the real number of issues drops significantly.
post #10 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Most of the discussions have nothing to do with having to constantly reistall…

But I'll tell ya, the ones that do are heavily visited in the forums. No one has an answer that isn't 'engineering intensive'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

...most of the problems would have been resolved or wouldn't have crept up at all if more had followed directions in the first place or simply used HELP.

Totally agreed. That definitely seems to always be the case. It amazes me the issues that come up that people could resolve with two minutes of ingenuity and/or a help file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Funny that the USER satisfaction studies show that the iPhone is getting near or over 90% favorable results on basically everything about the product.

90% of all the people that have the phone probably don't even know they can install applications (or they simply didn't buy the phone for that purpose). And among those in the 90% that have, most are likely not installing more than a few and don't work to hard to constantly update and sync the device, which is where the problems start.

The best part for those 90% (and for Apple) is they don't know how good things were with the original device and with iPhone OS 1, provided you didn't need 3G and didn't want all the add-on apps. Someone who's had both and is less of a power user like my wife would say the new phone is crap compared to the old one. She doesn't know what causes the thing to fall short, all she knows is the software is not nearly as responsive and she drops a lot more calls.

At the end of the conversation, that's really all that matters. But if you come from having another phone, I guess the superiority of the iPhone OS interface and product usability and feel are compelling enough to be in the 90%. This won't cut it when they try to turn volume in corporate America and they know it. That's why they'd rather squash these bugs in 2.1 I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

With the 8-9-10 million iPhones out there now, there are sure to be issues. But as anybody that has taken the time to peruse the discussion forums, disregard the redundant comments, those losing data by "replacing" rather than "merging" during the syncing process, and the best example of just an ignorant complaint, "Just today alone my apps has been set to USA $ and now its in German. how do i get it back to UK ££? iTunes also changes language," and the real number of issues drops significantly.

Probably much like yourself and many others on this forum, I've been an active user of Apple products, switching hundreds of folks over to the platform from Windows and spending all my free dollars (almost to the point of stupidity) because Apple products 'just work'. No one who's been a supporter would consider it acceptable to say that users should be required to know what's going on underneath when even the most basic bugs create challenges. Sure, everyone should be smart enough to figure out how to change a setting back the way it was, but expecting a user to know that the operating system appended a number to a filename in a folder when they synced their phone causing a catastrophic error?

If you're saying you think users should be able to figure that out, I'd have to disagree. All they're doing is synching their phone. They don't know and shouldn't have to know how iTunes and iPhone OS parse files and which filenames they are looking for. They shouldn't have to know that iTunes doesn't know when a version of an app is the same or different. They shouldn't have to understand why iTunes continues notifying for updates that have already been downloaded to an iPhone that has already been synched, only to say there are no updates when the user checks. They shouldn't have to look in About to see if an app has been updated when they know they already downloaded it and synched the phone. And they shouldn't have to know when iTunes considers part of a sync a merge or a replace.

They click on a sync button, and they expect their phone to sync. This is what has traditionally made Apple products great. They just plain work.

We've been talking about computing devices as 'appliances' or 'toasters' for 15 years in this industry and Apple was really the first company to turn the personal computer into a true appliance through tight HW/SW integration. Extending that power to a phone should create that same experience in light of the fact that, outside complaints about coverage and associated dropped calls, that's the user experience everyone's generally gotten with less extensible offerings over the years.

Apple's biggest challenge is that the phone's lineage is that old reliable brick on the wall in our houses while the personal computer's lineage is fraught with the need to understand what's going on under the covers. 24 million buyers a year (or at least 23 million of them) really don't give a rat's _____ what's going on and shouldn't be expected to know, whether we (the techies and power users) like it or not.

Right now there are over 2000 comments over three days in just one of the threads I was reading regarding the app issue. Is that a small number compared to the install base? Yes, but remember these are the people who are resourceful enough to find the forum and based on the replies resourceful enough to try things that no user should have to try to make their phone work.

I see novices and experienced engineers alike trying to solve this problem. End result: phone just doesn't work as it should... well, at least anything beyond dialing using the number pad and core email and browser functions when you include the 3G issue and refresh delays.

iPhone 1 is proof that this is a remarkable device. These issues must be addressed before REAL mainstream adoption (Best Buy and other reach distribution channels beyond an ATT store, as well as the folks sitting on the sidelines until bugs get worked out, money comes available, old contracts end, or the holidays come and they get one under the tree).

The publicity build going on right now is far more important than any that came before release to the overall success of the product, and what I hear from people I know that haven't bought the thing and know I buy everything Apple makes without reason are things like "I hear 3G doesn't work and coverage sucks" or "How many times have you had to reload your phone now" or even "I bet you keep your phone plugged in to a charger wherever you go, don't you?" That's the real marketing going on right there.

Throwing more kindling (features) on the fire is not the best idea and based on Jobs' MobileMe internal memo and this feature delay, it sounds as if this is exactly the approach Apple has had the foresight to take.
post #11 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

But I'll tell ya, the ones that do are heavily visited in the forums. No one has an answer that isn't 'engineering intensive'Throwing more kindling (features) on the fire is not the best idea and based on Jobs' MobileMe internal memo and this feature delay, it sounds as if this is exactly the approach Apple has had the foresight to take.

Would love to read your comments, but the length of the paragraphs makes it difficult. Suggest you break them up. Thank you.
post #12 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Would love to read your comments, but the length of the paragraphs makes it difficult. Suggest you break them up. Thank you.

Understood! Consider them edited and broken now (see above). Quite a diatribe as well - sorry for that.
post #13 of 62
I'm sure it will be back in beta 5 or 6. They seem to be releasing these every week.
post #14 of 62
See brevity is beauty.

Except in bed. That leads to a mad girlfriend.
post #15 of 62
posting this from I95 ( I'm not driving). 2.0 software is indeed the buggiest Apple product I've used ( Apple TV is a close second ), but it is also the most remarkable piece of software/hardware combo that I've used.

I suspect the push function was suffering from the same issues that I'm having with MobileMe. It simply doesn't work that well. Hopefully they have a decent fix in the works.

As for applications on the iPhone. I've had good success in deleting the current application and reinstalling the updates. I NEVER have been able to update applications from either the iPhone or iTunes. Synchronization is also spotty so I usually end up re-downloading application updates on got iTunes and the iPhone. Very un-Apple like but it works.
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post #16 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by hzc View Post

I'm just wondering if Apple is handpicking developers to receive the beta because I am in the iPhone Developer program ($99) and I do not see it when I log in.

Or is it just for ADC Premier and Select members?

I"m a Premier ADC member and I don't have access to it either. It apparently depends on when you accepted into the developer program. I know those accepted before July 11th have access to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Most of the discussions have nothing to do with having to constantly reistall
[...]

Nice post!
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post #17 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

The iPhone software as it stands is the worst crap Apple's ever released, at least in my memory. The fact that thousands of people are reporting in Apple's forum alone regarding having to constantly reinstall their entire phone over an as-yet not understood app synching bug that causes each and every app to crash until a phone wipe says that the Apple has fallen a great distance from its tree. Personally, I am simply hoping for a return to the reliable, solid OS foundation that made iPhone OS 1 a joy to use for the tasks it was designed to accomplish. This is still a phone, it needs responsive menus (including contacts), and things that run on it should run like it's an appliance. This is a major differentiator between Apple products and other crap most of us were stuck with in what we thought was our past and it should be given Apple's absolute highest priority now or we'll just be dealing with another Microsoft or Sony in the eyes of the consumer the company's in the process of trying to capture. The iPhone is the first device most will use from Apple, and it will most certainly be the last if some major bugs (3G/EDGE fringe zone call handling also) are not resolved immediately and given the kind of personal attention and communication Apple reps give when you call Apple Care. Hiding in a cave and providing sparse, vague feedback won't make it go away and it won't make Apple's most loyal customers continue their allegiance.

Not my experience re. app crash and phone wipe. I only have a small number of downloaded apps and this could be why I'm having zero challenges. Having moved from the Treo 650 to the 3G - I can attest to hundreds and hundreds of crashes on my Treo 650 with numerous firmware updates and reloads to get things working properly.

Also, I watched my 3G seamlessly switch between 3G and Edge during a 2-hour presentation on Friday. I'd heard about this problem yet had never looked into it. Was sending Twitter updates (I like iPhone interface much, much better than web except when a call comes in and wipes my Twitterriffic Premium msg) and saw it go back and forth.
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post #18 of 62
Thanks for the edit. Great read.

"90% of all the people that have the phone probably don't even know they can install applications (or they simply didn't buy the phone for that purpose)."

60 million downloads as of two weeks ago suggests otherwise.

"The best part for those 90% (and for Apple) is they don't know how good things were with the original device and with iPhone OS 1, provided you didn't need 3G and didn't want all the add-on apps. Someone who's had both and is less of a power user like my wife would say the new phone is crap compared to the old one. She doesn't know what causes the thing to fall short, all she knows is the software is not nearly as responsive and she drops a lot more calls."

I am not having a problem with calls being dropped. But then, perhaps my 3g service area is covering my needs. Your wife could shut 3g off and then would be able to tell if it is a coverage issue.

"No one who's been a supporter would consider it acceptable to say that users should be required to know what's going on underneath when even the most basic bugs create challenges. Sure, everyone should be smart enough to figure out how to change a setting back the way it was, but expecting a user to know that the operating system appended a number to a filename in a folder when they synced their phone causing a catastrophic error?"

Agree.

"And they shouldn't have to know when iTunes considers part of a sync a merge or a replace They click on a sync button, and they expect their phone to sync. This is what has traditionally made Apple products great. They just plain work."

And just how do you do that without asking the question first. You may delete or update data on one appliance and only you know if you really want to do the same an apply it on the other. For some, the priority would be their computer, for others the their iPhone. But their are days when the opposite would be true. No software can read your mind.

"We've been talking about computing devices as 'appliances' or 'toasters' for 15 years in this industry and Apple was really the first company to turn the personal computer into a true appliance through tight HW/SW integration. Extending that power to a phone should create that same experience in light of the fact that, outside complaints about coverage and associated dropped calls, that's the user experience everyone's generally gotten with less extensible offerings over the years."

The demand for more creates more variables and thus more issues, real or perceived.

"Right now there are over 2000 comments over three days in just one of the threads I was reading regarding the app issue. Is that a small number compared to the install base? Yes, but remember these are the people who are resourceful enough to find the forum and based on the replies resourceful enough to try things that no user should have to try to make their phone work."

Again, a quick perusal discloses the same redundant comments, not following directions and just plain silliness.

"I see novices and experienced engineers alike trying to solve this problem. End result: phone just doesn't work as it should... well, at least anything beyond dialing using the number pad and core email and browser functions when you include the 3G issue and refresh delays."

"I see novices and experienced engineers alike trying to solve this problem." Unfortunately that is the problem. Too many chefs. My advice on these forums is to direct them to the appropriate Apple Support site, to the HELP menu and/or if I recommend an alterative specific solution, I provide a complete reference/link.

Unfortunately, most of the helpful hints are not supported or have lost some of the proper guidance in the transitions.

"The publicity build going on right now is far more important than any that came before release to the overall success of the product, and what I hear from people I know that haven't bought the thing and know I buy everything Apple makes without reason are things like "I hear 3G doesn't work and coverage sucks" or "How many times have you had to reload your phone now" or even "I bet you keep your phone plugged in to a charger wherever you go, don't you?" That's the real marketing going on right there."

Yes there are issues, however, how real or bad are they. Much of the complaints can be resolved with a little due diligence. I (and my clients, students and friends) for one, haven't had an issue that for the most part wasn't self-inflicted, a misunderstanding, ignorance or just plain stupidity. The balance I can live with knowing that Apple will resolve them.

However, what irks me most is that I find the majority of dissenters are just trolling, never had an iPhone, used MobileMe, and will dis Apple at the drop of a hat.

"Throwing more kindling (features) on the fire is not the best idea and based on Jobs' MobileMe internal memo and this feature delay, it sounds as if this is exactly the approach Apple has had the foresight to take."

Can't totally agree. Seems that most of those that display patience, read the directions and not be guided by conspiracy theorists, are very happy. Sales, market penetration, customer satisfaction and the voices of true pundits/experts only support it.
post #19 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Yes there are issues, however, how real or bad are they. Much of the complaints can be resolved with a little due diligence. I (and my clients, students and friends) for one, haven't had an issue that for the most part wasn't self-inflicted, a misunderstanding, ignorance or just plain stupidity. The balance I can live with knowing that Apple will resolve them.

I agree.

Their is a growing list of freinds around me who are getting the iPhone. Largely are having no major problems. They aren't computer experts and know nothing of these list of complaints on the internet.

Quote:
However, what irks me most is that I find the majority of dissenters are just trolling, never had an iPhone, used MobileMe, and will dis Apple at the drop of a hat.

I agree when I see some of the more outrageous complaints. I find them very difficult to believe. People who are just trolls and Apple haters.

I agree iPhone OS 2.0 is not as stable as 1. There are indeed bugs that Apple needs to fix. By in large once you step away from the internet and out into regular life. The people I see with iPhones are not having the difficulties and problems of the so called computer savvy on these internet lists.
post #20 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

I think this more of a hardware issue.

Immature, poorly made components assembled in a hurry. I'm sure the testers are getting a lot of random results, its a product produced 'down' to a price point...with the obvious results.

When the hardware manufacturor has listed several other companies using it's chips in their 3G phones without issues .. nope .. this most likely a software issue. I think I would blame the hardware if iTunes didn't uninstall the apps I've bought via the appstore and then only reinstall once I've downloaded again via iTunes.

It's OK really .. anything with a .0 on the end is pretty much not completely baked anyway. Usually I don't do .0 releases but MY wife wanted the iPhone 3G .. I figured what the hell because Apple usually is better then most. Not this time.

And WTF is up with cut/paste/copy .. this has existed on MacOS for decades and on other phones for YEARS. Bad, bad form not to include it.
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post #21 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminr View Post

And WTF is up with cut/paste/copy .. this has existed on MacOS for decades and on other phones for YEARS. Bad, bad form not to include it.

Apple has said its on the to-do list and is coming soon. It just wasn't high priority.

Their has been some speculation Apple is still trying to figure out the best touch gesture for copy/paste. Once they pick one they are stuck with it forever.
post #22 of 62
I just want them to speed up the 2.0 software and stomp out the bugs. Next, they can polish existing features. Then they can add push. Frankly, I'm glad they're waiting, and I hope Apple really focuses on just putting out stable, fast releases. I don't want new features unless I can get them without significant bugs (such as all the lags).
post #23 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminr View Post

And WTF is up with cut/paste/copy .. this has existed on MacOS for decades and on other phones for YEARS. Bad, bad form not to include it.

It's a 3.5" capacitance touch screen so it requires a completely different set of rules for that action. It's not as simple as adding a clipboard to store copied items for pasting. How do other smartphone OSes do it? They use a stylus that can easily click on secondary menu of items as the stylus point is much much smaller than your finger. I still have yet to hear a good idea as how decent copy/paste could be implemented on the iPhone. Remember it's not just implementing a solution, it's implementing a solution in a way that makes it natural and easy to use for the average user and will be around for years to come. There is a reason why smartphones are just now becoming a popular replacement for the simple cellphones.
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post #24 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has said its on the to-do list and is coming soon. It just wasn't high priority.

Their has been some speculation Apple is still trying to figure out the best touch gesture for copy/paste. Once they pick one they are stuck with it forever.

Well, because they're going after the Corp. market with Activesync and other such features .. it should have been on their radar. As user of Crackberries for the last 4+ years there are certain features that most of my co-workers use regularly .. this would be one of them. They could have just had one run their finger over the text to highlight and then had a button which pops up options for CUT/COPY/PASTE as they show option in other apps. It's not brain surgery. If RIM's craptastic software developers can figure out how to do this .. Apple should be able to do it.

I'm an extreme Apple fanboy but I won't take excuses for things like this. We'll see how they fair in the Corp. market. I can't see people not getting pissed over the fact that it's REALLY hard to sync the iPhone between multiple machines .. especially when Wintendo crashes a lot and if they sync with a new install and it tells them they've sync'ed with another iTunes DB .. then proceeds to remove all their apps which will cause them to lose data and setting. Just won't cut it. It's happened to me and I wasn't happy about it.

Ah well. iPhone OSX will get put back in the oven over the next six months and get new updates which will bake it further. It might be usable just around the time that the OS gets refreshed next June. *laugh*
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post #25 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Thanks for the edit. Great read.

However, what irks me most is that I find the majority of dissenters are just trolling, never had an iPhone, used MobileMe, and will dis Apple at the drop of a hat.

"Throwing more kindling (features) on the fire is not the best idea and based on Jobs' MobileMe internal memo and this feature delay, it sounds as if this is exactly the approach Apple has had the foresight to take."

Can't totally agree. Seems that most of those that display patience, read the directions and not be guided by conspiracy theorists, are very happy. Sales, market penetration, customer satisfaction and the voices of true pundits/experts only support it.

Great post. I've been hanging out here for a number of years and only started posting when the issue of conference calls via iPhone came up - that is my area of interest and passion. I'm neither tech savvy nor a power user and fully appreciate reading comments by those much more skilled and smarter than I am with both HW/SW issues. Thanks!
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post #26 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has said its on the to-do list and is coming soon. It just wasn't high priority.

Their has been some speculation Apple is still trying to figure out the best touch gesture for copy/paste. Once they pick one they are stuck with it forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's a 3.5" capacitance touch screen so it requires a completely different set of rules for that action. It's not as simple as adding a clipboard to store copied items for pasting. How do other smartphone OSes do it? They use a stylus that can easily click on secondary menu of items as the stylus point is much much smaller than your finger. I still have yet to hear a good idea as how decent copy/paste could be implemented on the iPhone. Remember it's not just implementing a solution, it's implementing a solution in a way that makes it natural and easy to use for the average user and will be around for years to come. There is a reason why smartphones are just now becoming a popular replacement for the simple cellphones.

I call bull****. The Blackberry lets you position the cursor next to the beginning of the text you want to copy and then you click the menu button.. choose copy and then you use the little navigation ball to scroll over the text you want to copy then hit the menu button and copy it. Then you go to another app and have the cursor where you want to paste it and hit the menu button to choose paste. Apple could do this much easier with the gestures and it's 3.5 screen.

There are thousands of sales goons and PHB upper management types who do this daily without hand holding .. and THEY are not the sharpest bunch when it comes to tech.

I don't buy your excuse for the lack of this function. The reason it's not there is simply because they chose to focus on other features over this basic feature.

It is what it is.
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post #27 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminr View Post

Well, because they're going after the Corp. market with Activesync and other such features .. it should have been on their radar.

As prviously stated, it is on their radar, it's just not the most important thing or the easiest thing to tackle.

Quote:
They could have just had one run their finger over the text to highlight and then had a button which pops up options for CUT/COPY/PASTE as they show option in other apps. It's not brain surgery. If RIM's craptastic software developers can figure out how to do this .. Apple should be able to do it.

First off, RiM's developers are talented. Secondly, you make it seem as easy as it would be to click and drag with a mouse, but it's not as we use our finger in the same motion on the iPhone to scroll up and down and left and right.

At the very least there has to be a secondary input to tell the system you intend to copy text. This could a roll up menu,like in Google Maps, but this would mean that all applicable apps would have to have this same functionality which would mean a rewrite and change of the new familiar placement of virtual buttons so this is not likely. another option would be holding down the Home button while clicking the start of the copy to initial the copy. But tis this too complex for the average user? Another option would be holding a finger down on the text for x seconds to get the system to recognise the start of the copy.

Okay, so we have plans for copy, despite not being easy to implement, but how do you do a cut? How do then paste the copied text? How would this work for copying non-text items like images or files? Will I have an option to match style (or preserve style)?
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post #28 of 62
Isn't it fairly obvious that the people with problems are installing loads of apps--

It is most likely that there are bugs in the apps that is screwing up the phones---

Do any of you who have real problems have them with iPhones that have few or no apps?
post #29 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminr View Post

I call bull****. The Blackberry lets you position the cursor next to the beginning of the text you want to copy and then you click the menu button.. choose copy and then you use the little navigation ball to scroll over the text you want to copy then hit the menu button and copy it. Then you go to another app and have the cursor where you want to paste it and hit the menu button to choose paste. Apple could do this much easier with the gestures and it's 3.5 screen.

The mantra that Apple can do it more easily that others is the only BS here. You're walkthrough of a BB even shows the use of things that the iPhone currently doesn't have but you seem to not realise this. So where would the Menu » Copy/Paste option be in the iPhone? How do I put a cursor on text in a read only document that I wish to copy from?

You think that Apple can somehow snap their fingers and make things work, but the truth is that Apple's product work the way they do because they tend to focus on getting a sipler set of fucntionality working great instead of flooding their devices with a torrent of poorly implemented ones. When they try too much at one time they fall apart just like any other company.

Where is the scroll wheel on the iPhone? Your finger is quite large to choose text precisely as your finger is large and blocking the text you want you want to copy. Even the magnifying glass still needs work.

I want Copy/Paste as much as the next guy, but you can't say it's a simple task, especially when you don't even a valid outline of the logistics of making this an easy to use option for the average user.
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post #30 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Thanks for the edit. Great read.

"90% of all the people that have the phone probably don't even know they can install applications (or they simply didn't buy the phone for that purpose)."

60 million downloads as of two weeks ago suggests otherwise.

"The best part for those 90% (and for Apple) is they don't know how good things were with the original device and with iPhone OS 1, provided you didn't need 3G and didn't want all the add-on apps. Someone who's had both and is less of a power user like my wife would say the new phone is crap compared to the old one. She doesn't know what causes the thing to fall short, all she knows is the software is not nearly as responsive and she drops a lot more calls."

I am not having a problem with calls being dropped. But then, perhaps my 3g service area is covering my needs. Your wife could shut 3g off and then would be able to tell if it is a coverage issue.

"No one who's been a supporter would consider it acceptable to say that users should be required to know what's going on underneath when even the most basic bugs create challenges. Sure, everyone should be smart enough to figure out how to change a setting back the way it was, but expecting a user to know that the operating system appended a number to a filename in a folder when they synced their phone causing a catastrophic error?"

Agree.

"And they shouldn't have to know when iTunes considers part of a sync a merge or a replace They click on a sync button, and they expect their phone to sync. This is what has traditionally made Apple products great. They just plain work."

And just how do you do that without asking the question first. You may delete or update data on one appliance and only you know if you really want to do the same an apply it on the other. For some, the priority would be their computer, for others the their iPhone. But their are days when the opposite would be true. No software can read your mind.

"We've been talking about computing devices as 'appliances' or 'toasters' for 15 years in this industry and Apple was really the first company to turn the personal computer into a true appliance through tight HW/SW integration. Extending that power to a phone should create that same experience in light of the fact that, outside complaints about coverage and associated dropped calls, that's the user experience everyone's generally gotten with less extensible offerings over the years."

The demand for more creates more variables and thus more issues, real or perceived.

"Right now there are over 2000 comments over three days in just one of the threads I was reading regarding the app issue. Is that a small number compared to the install base? Yes, but remember these are the people who are resourceful enough to find the forum and based on the replies resourceful enough to try things that no user should have to try to make their phone work."

Again, a quick perusal discloses the same redundant comments, not following directions and just plain silliness.

"I see novices and experienced engineers alike trying to solve this problem. End result: phone just doesn't work as it should... well, at least anything beyond dialing using the number pad and core email and browser functions when you include the 3G issue and refresh delays."

"I see novices and experienced engineers alike trying to solve this problem." Unfortunately that is the problem. Too many chefs. My advice on these forums is to direct them to the appropriate Apple Support site, to the HELP menu and/or if I recommend an alterative specific solution, I provide a complete reference/link.

Unfortunately, most of the helpful hints are not supported or have lost some of the proper guidance in the transitions.

"The publicity build going on right now is far more important than any that came before release to the overall success of the product, and what I hear from people I know that haven't bought the thing and know I buy everything Apple makes without reason are things like "I hear 3G doesn't work and coverage sucks" or "How many times have you had to reload your phone now" or even "I bet you keep your phone plugged in to a charger wherever you go, don't you?" That's the real marketing going on right there."

Yes there are issues, however, how real or bad are they. Much of the complaints can be resolved with a little due diligence. I (and my clients, students and friends) for one, haven't had an issue that for the most part wasn't self-inflicted, a misunderstanding, ignorance or just plain stupidity. The balance I can live with knowing that Apple will resolve them.

However, what irks me most is that I find the majority of dissenters are just trolling, never had an iPhone, used MobileMe, and will dis Apple at the drop of a hat.

"Throwing more kindling (features) on the fire is not the best idea and based on Jobs' MobileMe internal memo and this feature delay, it sounds as if this is exactly the approach Apple has had the foresight to take."

Can't totally agree. Seems that most of those that display patience, read the directions and not be guided by conspiracy theorists, are very happy. Sales, market penetration, customer satisfaction and the voices of true pundits/experts only support it.

Cliff's Notes version of above:

Blah Blah Blah Apple is awesome and without fault.

Blah Blah Blah those who disagree with the above are either trolls or conspiracy theorists
post #31 of 62
I am not an iPhone 3G owner myself but one of my work colleagues has one. Both times he has shown it to me it has hung.

As a software developer I was pretty amazed, watching the keynote, how many new features they had added in such a short time. But on some level I must not have believed it because I waited before buying which is not something I usually do with Apple products.
post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

I think this more of a hardware issue.

Immature, poorly made components assembled in a hurry. I'm sure the testers are getting a lot of random results, its a product produced 'down' to a price point...with the obvious results.

I for so long have been trying to convince myself it will all be fixed in an update. My phone is so laggy. Even while typing this message it can't handle it. Every existing application that came with the phone takes between 2-7 seconds to load. My first iphone never lagged like that. I feel like maybe the phones physical memory and processor speeds are too slow for the phone to be something more then just a phone. Every game lags.... Every single one lags at some point. It's not like we can upgrade the phones speed do we van but better games. Ugh sorry I am just upset cuz now I am stuck with this phone for 2 years. For god sake the gps is so innaccurate it's unbelievable.
post #33 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammick View Post

Isn't it fairly obvious that the people with problems are installing loads of apps--

It is most likely that there are bugs in the apps that is screwing up the phones---

Do any of you who have real problems have them with iPhones that have few or no apps?

My iPhone 3G (white 16GB) has no apps installed or downloaded and my phone has all the issues that are described in the various threads in this forum. Also this is my second phone as I returned this first one to try and resolve the dropped calls and signal issues. I'm praying that the 2.1 update fixes the issues and could care less about new features.
post #34 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

I for so long have been trying to convince myself it will all be fixed in an update. My phone is so laggy. Even while typing this message it can't handle it. Every existing application that came with the phone takes between 2-7 seconds to load. My first iphone never lagged like that. I feel like maybe the phones physical memory and processor speeds are too slow for the phone to be something more then just a phone. Every game lags.... Every single one lags at some point. It's not like we can upgrade the phones speed do we van but better games. Ugh sorry I am just upset cuz now I am stuck with this phone for 2 years. For god sake the gps is so innaccurate it's unbelievable.

1) By "for so long" you mean under 5 weeks. That is when it went on sale. Also, 2.0.1 did help a little but there are some lag issues that still need to be addressed.

2) The iPhone's processor is hella faster than other smartphones out there. Many of these companies are finally adding a faster CPU, more RAM, considerably more Flash and finally using a better display (even exceeding the iPhone's ppi). If you thought it was a HW issue that can't be resolved with a software update why didn't you return the handset when you had a 30 day trial to use it? If you did buy your iPhone within the first week you can cancel your account for $175.

3) One-thousand one, one-thousand-two. 2 to 7 seconds is unreasonable for such a small device? Have you tried the apps on other higher function phones? The one thing about the iPhone OS is that it is very responsive. But there are some issues with the OS that need work, especially with Safari and typing in web forms.
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post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has said its on the to-do list and is coming soon. It just wasn't high priority.

Their has been some speculation Apple is still trying to figure out the best touch gesture for copy/paste. Once they pick one they are stuck with it forever.

you'd think there'd be someone at apple who'd still remember how beautifully it worked on the newton....
post #36 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Cliff's Notes version of above:

Blah Blah Blah Apple is awesome and without fault.

Blah Blah Blah those who disagree with the above are either trolls or conspiracy theorists

No one has said Apple is without fault. Its generally recognized that the 2.0 software has bugs and faults. But to what degree are there serious problems? Some are using randomly extreme complaints by random people on anonymous web lists as empirical evidence that the iPhone is severely flawed. Some of us are pointing out that random complaints by anonymous people on web lists is a poor barometer to gauge how severe the problems actually are.

Others of us point out in our own daily use and the daily use of people we know are not nearly as extremely bad as the random and anonymous people on these web lists make it sound. While recognizing there are issues in the software.
post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) By "for so long" you mean under 5 weeks. That is when it went on sale. Also, 2.0.1 did help a little but there are some lag issues that still need to be addressed.

This is a good point. The 2.0 software has been out for a short time. While recognizing there are bugs to be worked out. Some of you make it sound as if the software has been around for months and Apple has had more than reasonable time to work them all out.

Its more common for other mobile OS to carry bugs for a year or more before they receive a software update. In some cases you have to purhchase a new phone to receive the OS update. Apple's frequent point updates of the iPhone OS are not common amongst most other mobile OS.
post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

you'd think there'd be someone at apple who'd still remember how beautifully it worked on the newton....

The Newton stylus based UI is entirely different from the iPhone multi-touch UI.
post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

The iPhone software as it stands is the worst crap Apple's ever released, at least in my memory. The fact that thousands of people are reporting in Apple's forum alone regarding having to constantly reinstall their entire phone over an as-yet not understood app synching bug that causes each and every app to crash until a phone wipe says that the Apple has fallen a great distance from its tree. Personally, I am simply hoping for a return to the reliable, solid OS foundation that made iPhone OS 1 a joy to use for the tasks it was designed to accomplish. This is still a phone, it needs responsive menus (including contacts), and things that run on it should run like it's an appliance. This is a major differentiator between Apple products and other crap most of us were stuck with in what we thought was our past and it should be given Apple's absolute highest priority now or we'll just be dealing with another Microsoft or Sony in the eyes of the consumer the company's in the process of trying to capture. The iPhone is the first device most will use from Apple, and it will most certainly be the last if some major bugs (3G/EDGE fringe zone call handling also) are not resolved immediately and given the kind of personal attention and communication Apple reps give when you call Apple Care. Hiding in a cave and providing sparse, vague feedback won't make it go away and it won't make Apple's most loyal customers continue their allegiance.


Well said. Give is stable appliance level software first. Do it right. Then start adding features. I would love to see the Push Notification services ASAP, but not at the expense of being able to use the phone.
post #40 of 62
I must say the BS in this thread in support of Apple is just a little to much for this user to take. Also I'm very happy to see that Apple has wise up with respect to 2.1, they need to spend a lot of time getting the bugs out of the OS and apps first.

Bugs are where most of the complaints about 3G lay and as a new user I fan say with some authority are highly justified. It is espcially bad that key apps have serious stability issues. For example:

Mail
Mail has crashed for me more than just about any app on iPhone. Sometimes right at start up. Mind you these are spimple text based mails causing this problem. Sadly E-Mail is a big reason for having a smart phone in the first place.

Safari
Safari does crash from time to time but probably isn't as bad as browsers on other phones. That of course is not saying much. If nothing else they need to fix text handeling. I'm more concerned about the lack of features, iPhone Safari still leaves a lot to be desired relative to a desk top browser.

Calendar
Let's face it calendar is really nice until you try to sync it. Then it becomes a piece of crap. Very disappointed as this is the #2 reason to have a smart phone on you. If iPhone Cal can't mirror the structures I'm using on my Mac then what the hell good is it? It is not that difficult either with one group of four calendars. Worst yet is there is apparently no simple way to get iPhone Cal to resync with your master schedule. Frankly I can't believe that keeping the two devices in sync should be that hard.

Contacts
Contacts works but like calendar seems to have sync issues. Yes it is Sloooooow too. Data entry on the iPhone sucks two, l need to be able to enter in all the data that I can on the desktop. By the way the only reason to have a contacts app is to provide a desktop equal.



Well in any event a couple of issues off the top. The 3G experience is worst than I expected but frankly a very usable device. The only thing that would change my mind is if Apple abandoned development on the unit. In a nut schell the whole reason I went with an iPhone is Apples track record on version 1. They eventually got things humming along nicely there. The problem with 3G is that they have regressed far more thanexpected and have a lot of catching up to do. So in a nut shell they better drop all those new features and finish off what they currently have.

I do mean finish off as one only has to work with they SDK a little bit to realize that there are far to many bugs in the device. I'm note sure what the issues are that lead to the current mess but the need to get things cleared up before the competition responds.

Dave
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