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Class action suit claims Apple deceived over iPhone 3G speeds - Page 4

post #121 of 212
Funnily enough Apple have placed a disclaimer on all of their advertising regarding 'twice as fast'

* Comparisons between iPhone 3G (8GB) and first-generation iPhone (8GB) running on EDGE. Actual speeds vary by site conditions. Requires new two-year AT&T rate plan, sold separately to qualified customers.
Some features, applications, and services are not available in all areas. See your carrier for details.
Some applications are not available in all areas. Application availability and pricing are subject to change.

Just another example of a stupid illiterate cow.
post #122 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairly View Post

Uh - did they also explain their 3G connectivity was going to be CRAP around the world? I'm looking for it now in their published literature. If you find it first then let us know, OK?

Troll much?
post #123 of 212
I am thinking that, in such a case, claiming misrepresentation (being induced to enter into a contract by false statements not amounting to a term of the contract) is probably more efficient than claiming a breach of 'express warranty'? ... I fail to see any warranty here, express or implied.

Or is this just 'advertising puff', in which case misrep cannot be claimed on that basis? Any lawyers take on this?
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post #124 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Exactamundo. Right on the money.

I have two other 3G phones. Nokia N82 and Nokia E61. I will concede that the iPhone has a better browser, but if I go to the same web page with the iPhone (BBC, CNN, MSNBC), the Nokia's simply get there first. This is not a scientific test by any means but I bet her suit gets traction because her claims will for the most part be verifiable. The iPhone is not slow but it is not as fast as other 3G phones. Apple better shit a solution and fast.

Perhaps those other phones are loading specially made Mobile Websites. You know the really simplified versions they have to make for 'smart phones' unable to run real browsers.
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post #125 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by nasdarq View Post

I am thinking that, in such a case, claiming misrepresentation (being induced to enter into a contract by false statements not amounting to a term of the contract) is probably more efficient than claiming a breach of 'express warranty'? ... Or is this just 'advertising puff', in which case misrep cannot be claimed on that basis? Any lawyers take on this?

Win or lose what do you think will be the reputation hit that Apple suffers. People will hardly remember that the case was dismissed or even care if Apple wins. They will remember how a perception was created that Apple sold a defective product. This is the real damage.
post #126 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Perhaps those other phones are loading specially made Mobile Websites. You know the really simplified versions they have to make for 'smart phones' unable to run real browsers.

Not sure what you are talking about and it appears you don't either but so that now you will have a clue, take a peek at these links and read the specs that you missed. By the way, they run Flash.

http://www.nokia.co.uk/A4688582 (N82)

http://www.nokia.co.uk/A4221032 (E61i)
post #127 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Win or lose what do you think will be the reputation hit that Apple suffers. People will hardly remember that the case was dismissed or even care if Apple wins. They will remember how a perception was created that Apple sold a defective product. This is the real damage.

I think they'll be fine. Virtually every consumer product has problems and most of educated america realizes that filing a law suit is like going to grocery store - it seems like everyone is doing it. Ya know, the economy is down so the only real way to make money is to take it from people/businesses who are successful

Ya know - re-distribution of wealth and all of that :-D
post #128 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Not sure what you are talking about and it appears you don't either but so that now you will have a clue, take a peek at these links and read the specs that you missed. By the way, they run Flash.

http://www.nokia.co.uk/A4688582 (N82)

http://www.nokia.co.uk/A4221032 (E61i)

Given the same connection the iPhone is going to load the page faster as it's engine is faster than any other mobile on the market. Your real problem is with the connection not with how fast the iPhone can render the page.
post #129 of 212
The 3G problems are an AT&T network problem.

In rural areas with 3G and fewer users, I get 400-900 kbps download speeds on 3G. It is fantastic and much faster than the 90-160 kbps I am getting on EDGE.

However, in urban areas with 3G and many more users, I am getting 300-600 kbps downloads speeds on 3G. This is still faster than the 90-160 kbps I am getting on EDGE.

There are more problems with urban areas since there are more users.

I believe AT&T has a lot of blame for not anticipating and building more bandwidth into the system with the large number of people who are buying the iPhone 3G and using their data capabilities. This is shown by how much more trouble there is with 3G in urban areas.

AT&T got its wish - more higher paying customers for its data services.

But now AT&T has to continue to build a better network.

And I believe that there should be a law that lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits should get the death penalty. They are a waste.
post #130 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Am I missing something here? When you go to Apple's website the first thing to appear states "Twice as fast. Half the price." -without any asterisk stating exceptions. Now I'm not saying Apple is being deceptive- but that is what they state in all their advertising. Just being devil's advocate- pleez don't get mad people.

That's true but if you click on the iPhone (or go to purchase it) the asterisk shows up. I mean, I think the big problem here is people who are impulse buying and not realizing what they are getting into. The "masses" never complained about Treo's or BB's because the masses didn't buy them but now we're introducing smartphones to an entirely new demographic of people who aren't the traditional smartphone type and are unwilling to accept any problems (mainly because their old phone was so crappy it "just worked" because it didn't have to do much, well, work).
post #131 of 212
The Birmingham lawyer should be fried for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

Apple was smart to put in a disclaimer.
It is standard practice.

Always put "Your mileage may vary" on any claim to keep you safe from all but the dumbest of dumbass lawyers.

The disclaimer kills the lawsuit. It is frivolous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Funnily enough Apple have placed a disclaimer on all of their advertising regarding 'twice as fast'

* Comparisons between iPhone 3G (8GB) and first-generation iPhone (8GB) running on EDGE. Actual speeds vary by site conditions. Requires new two-year AT&T rate plan, sold separately to qualified customers.
Some features, applications, and services are not available in all areas. See your carrier for details.
Some applications are not available in all areas. Application availability and pricing are subject to change.

Just another example of a stupid illiterate cow.
post #132 of 212
this is nothing more than "vulture" litigation, ITS ALL ABOUT GETTING MONEY from you, me, whoever, that's why ladders cost more, and they have to have warning stickers about being stupid. apple is making it right, no one did a lawsuit when MS stuff opens the door for virus, or when my moto keeps crashing and not even making a call.
vulture frivilous, money hungry greedy bastards.
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post #133 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Win or lose what do you think will be the reputation hit that Apple suffers. People will hardly remember that the case was dismissed or even care if Apple wins. They will remember how a perception was created that Apple sold a defective product. This is the real damage.

But does that damage actually happen? Apple gets sued practically every week. Most people won't ever hear about it, and most of those that do will assume it's a BS suit, which is the default reaction to a lawsuit by most people in the US.
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post #134 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Exactamundo. Right on the money.

I have two other 3G phones. Nokia N82 and Nokia E61. I will concede that the iPhone has a better browser, but if I go to the same web page with the iPhone (BBC, CNN, MSNBC), the Nokia's simply get there first. This is not a scientific test by any means but I bet her suit gets traction because her claims will for the most part be verifiable. The iPhone is not slow but it is not as fast as other 3G phones. Apple better shit a solution and fast.

I am an iphone user. Both original and 3g. yes there are various software issues. Yes 3g kicks off more and goes to 2g. Yes I do get dropped calls from time to time. I dont care if the 3g speed is not the fastest among other 3g devices. And i had exactly 2 weeks to return it without penalty and i chose to stick with the frustration because quite simply other phones would bore me now. I do hope apple comes up with these patches quickly. This is still a very young product and future iphones will obviously have their OS rock solid. Apple is new to the phone game that it wont get it perfectly right. Other phones have a simple os this is a computer.

I guess you have to weigh it out. Is it the best phone. No. Its the best mobile device. Its a decent phone but everything else is top notch. And eventually apple have their software right. I have been waiting for it for a year. But I have a feeling Jobs is sick of all this apple bashing. He will fix everything this year. Apple might be a secretive company but they are prideful. Their products arent hard to use for buggy. So this is an abberation that will be corrected sooner rather then later.

September will probably have some significant updates and will all these units out there. Hopefully apple is getting error logs from the phones when we sync to itunes and sending it to itself. I do remember iphone asking if you want to send data to apple sometime when i first connected the device.

The ipod was a new device so whatever we got we were happy with. Unfortunately cell phone isnt a new thing. None of us woud have been complaining if cell phones didnt exist and apple came up with this. We just have other devices to compare it to so we can say this sucks or this is better on another model. But I digress. I love apple but yes it does get frustrating at times. But i am happier with their stuff then without if it comes down to it.
post #135 of 212
It is ridiculous money grabbing. The Iphone 3G can do things "twice" as fast, if the At&t network was good then, there would be no weak signals or need for the iPhone to downgrade to EDGE. Apple will be doing all they can to fix this problem behind the scenes.

With mobile me, I was a .mac user, with the balls up they gave us weeks of extra contract for free. I wasn't even very pissed off, it was a pain for a week after the launch, but that has to be expected with any new software. Apple do fix things and there is no such thing as a perfect device that uses software. The difference between Apple and other manufacturers is that Apple is going to fix it as soon as they can.
post #136 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by nasdarq View Post

I am thinking that, in such a case, claiming misrepresentation (being induced to enter into a contract by false statements not amounting to a term of the contract) is probably more efficient than claiming a breach of 'express warranty'? ... I fail to see any warranty here, express or implied.

Or is this just 'advertising puff', in which case misrep cannot be claimed on that basis? Any lawyers take on this?

I believe (my contracts class was a year ago, but I did write the top exam in my class ) the advantage would be that breach of warranty brings up the possibility of delicious, tort-like damages, where a regular contract claim will only allow expectation damages.

I'd have to go review some notes to give a more accurate response.

Since it's a specific, quantitative thing (twice as fast!) that's probably beyond "advertising puff" which is why they have the disclaimer irnchriz mentions.
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post #137 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I think they'll be fine. Virtually every consumer product has problems and most of educated america realizes that filing a law suit is like going to grocery store - it seems like everyone is doing it. Ya know, the economy is down so the only real way to make money is to take it from people/businesses who are successful

Ya know - re-distribution of wealth and all of that :-D

I could go for a bit of the old wealth re-disto.
post #138 of 212
edited
post #139 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

But does that damage actually happen? Apple gets sued practically every week. Most people won't ever hear about it, and most of those that do will assume it's a BS suit, which is the default reaction to a lawsuit by most people in the US.

Good question. I have no idea. I am looking at the longer term damage in the reputation for Apple than just the iPhone.
post #140 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

edited

If you say so but I did not think it work this way as my understanding is that it is a full HTML browser. I thought that the Nokia borwsers were using a similar webkit that the iPhone is using. This was mentioned here in another thread a while back. If you got the info let it flow, and no, I did not try to make it rhyme. Well the last no part I did.
post #141 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Good question. I have no idea. I am looking at the longer term damage in the reputation for Apple than just the iPhone.

So am I. My point is the same.
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post #142 of 212
I live in Austin, TX, and none of my friends or coworkers iPhone '3G's' or any iPhone '3G' I've seen at either Apple store or at any AT&T store can hold onto a 3G connection to save its life. Meanwhile, all other 3G phones have full reception and don't fall back to 2G when the iPhone '3G' does.

I'm not the biggest fan of lawsuits, but if Apple is going to remain quiet on this, and then release a 'fix' that did nothing for my reception other than make the phone prefer 2G networks even more, maybe this is what needs to happen to get Apple to admit the problem and attempt to fix it.

I've looked at over 20 iPhones, and NONE of them can hold a signal 1/2 as good as the crappiest Samsung or LG 3G phone.

What's even more odd, is that in San Antonio (AT&T's headquarters) my phone performed flawlessly on the highway and in downtown. This would lead some to blame the network, but not me. Other phones perform just fine in areas that the iPhone '3G' struggles. This just shows that, when the signal isn't absolutely pristine and the network isn't overwhelmingly robust, the iPhone '3G' suffers when other phones do not.
post #143 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

True tenobell, but if they warranted being sued, they should be.

No, not as long as they are making the attempt to correct their mistake.

In this case its likely a fairly complicated problem to correct and may take some time.
post #144 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Good question. I have no idea. I am looking at the longer term damage in the reputation for Apple than just the iPhone.

I doubt it this certainly is not the first time Apple has gone through this. The last time I can think of is when the notebooks switched to Intel processors and their were reports of all types of problems and lawsuits.

People have seem to have forgotten about all of that.
post #145 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdttu View Post

I'm not the biggest fan of lawsuits, but if Apple is going to remain quiet on this, and then release a 'fix' that did nothing for my reception other than make the phone prefer 2G networks even more, maybe this is what needs to happen to get Apple to admit the problem and attempt to fix it.

Apple (AAPL) acknowledged Tuesday that a software update for the iPhone partly fixes the connection snags that have caused a global firestorm for the new iPhone 3G.
post #146 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zendolphyn View Post

I wonder what her lawyers think is the $$ value for the pain and suffering of her faster (but slower) iPhone 3G speeds?

$20k? 6 figures?

Can't wait to hear this one...

That's not the point of a class action lawsuit. If the case is found in her favor then ALL of the people on the class actions suit will be paid. It will likely have very little impact (if any) on hurting Apple's bottom line.

The more important issue here is Apple's reliability. This could cost them greatly in the years to come as the competition is coming out very soon with phones that beat the iPhone feature for feature (IMHO) and have a proven track record as a mobile provider.

Steve is getting what he deserves for being a paranoid CEO and rushing the phone to the market before it was ready.
post #147 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I doubt it this certainly is not the first time Apple has gone through this. The last time I can think of is when the notebooks switched to Intel processors and their were reports of all types of problems and lawsuits.

People have seem to have forgotten about all of that.

Good call. Just curious, what do you think will happen?
post #148 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdttu View Post

I live in Austin, TX, and none of my friends or coworkers iPhone '3G's' or any iPhone '3G' I've seen at either Apple store or at any AT&T store can hold onto a 3G connection to save its life. Meanwhile, all other 3G phones have full reception and don't fall back to 2G when the iPhone '3G' does.

I'm not the biggest fan of lawsuits, but if Apple is going to remain quiet on this, and then release a 'fix' that did nothing for my reception other than make the phone prefer 2G networks even more, maybe this is what needs to happen to get Apple to admit the problem and attempt to fix it.

I've looked at over 20 iPhones, and NONE of them can hold a signal 1/2 as good as the crappiest Samsung or LG 3G phone.

What's even more odd, is that in San Antonio (AT&T's headquarters) my phone performed flawlessly on the highway and in downtown. This would lead some to blame the network, but not me. Other phones perform just fine in areas that the iPhone '3G' struggles. This just shows that, when the signal isn't absolutely pristine and the network isn't overwhelmingly robust, the iPhone '3G' suffers when other phones do not.

You should come up to DFW - I've got about 8 friends with the 3G and not a single one of them has a problem (We have roads that travel east/west as well - it's a fancy new invention )
post #149 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Good call. Just curious, what do you think will happen?

I think this is new technology for Apple and they are going through some growing pains. The same as the Intel transition. After Apple worked out the problems they sold more computers than they ever had before.

I think as long as Apple eventually delivers what they promised, people will forgive and forget.
post #150 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Am I missing something here? When you go to Apple's website the first thing to appear states "Twice as fast. Half the price." -without any asterisk footnoting exceptions. This is also on all their print and TV advertising- with no disclaimers.

Let's say that's all you ever see or read before you buy the iphone 3g.
Twice as fast as what? What is twice as fast - startup, shutdown, opening apps, picture taking, throwing against a brick wall??? Why assume web browsing?
Now, if you do read the fine print, it will tell you what they are talking about and how they came to that conclusion... but then you would know that you aren't guaranteed those speeds everywhere, or all the time, or even at all.

Angel's advocate
post #151 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

The "masses" never complained about Treo's or BB's because the masses didn't buy them but now we're introducing smartphones to an entirely new demographic of people who aren't the traditional smartphone type and are unwilling to accept any problems (mainly because their old phone was so crappy it "just worked" because it didn't have to do much, well, work).

That seems to be the problem of perhaps its Apple's deep pockets. All the other device makers list the actual theoretical speed of the 3G radios on their spec sheet (eg: 7.2Mbps) wheras Apple only lists twice as fast when I have received speeds 7x as fast as my maximum with EDGE on the iPhone. Yet I haven't heard about them being sued for listing a speed that you can never obtain.
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post #152 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic View Post

Let's say that's all you ever see or read before you buy the iphone 3g.
Twice as fast as what? What is twice as fast - startup, shutdown, opening apps, picture taking, throwing against a brick wall??? Why assume web browsing?
Now, if you do read the fine print, it will tell you what they are talking about and how they came to that conclusion... but then you would know that you aren't guaranteed those speeds everywhere, or all the time, or even at all.

Angel's advocate

Oh, well crap. I was going to have my iPhone race Usain Bolt and be twice as fast as him! There goes my plan to get rich

post #153 of 212
First thing here is that I have to wonder who initiated this lawsuit, the client or the lawyer? I ask frankly because complaining about conection speeds seems like a way to generate legal fees more than anything else. Let's face it connection speeds are highly variable no matter what the technology.

For example I can get a strong signal at work but what can only be called slow transfer rates or sluggish networking. At home I get a much weaker signal indication but often much snappier networking. When I drive outside my local 3G area networking becomes much slower. Does this surprise anyone? In any event 3G is almost always 2 - 3 times faster than edge.

Funny thing here is expectations, do people reasonable expect devices using RF technology to work anywhere?I mean this inever expect my cell phones to work when I'm in the moutains nor did I have that expectation for the block house of a factory I work in. No other phones work in such an environment so why the iPhone.

Now I'm not trying to say that the IPhone has been an acceptable experience from the point of view of this consumer. The phone is simply buggy! Here again though I knew what I was getting into simply due to exposure to the SDK. I purchased though because I have confidence in Apples ability to set things right based on what they did with version #1. At some point here there has to be some expectation that consumers have some ability to understand what they are buying. Frankly this law suit makes as much sense as someone buying a shortwave radio and then complaining that reception varies with the weather and time of day.

Apple hasn't been perfect here either as we all know. How ever they seem to recognize the problems that ate real. One of their updates has already fixed problems I've had with excessive crashing in mail. Mail by the way is fast enough no matter what the connection. Plus they have been candid about other fixes that are coming. That to me is a good sign. I do wish that their technical support sight was a little better organized as it took me forever to find a solution to one problem I had. Comparatively does anybody offer a better smart phone offering when supplied software, support and other factors are taken into account? I don't really think so. Frankly I was waiting a bit for Android but that never showed so there really isn't much in they way of modern alternatives. This leads me to the conclusion that this law suit is all about bitting the hand that feeds us. I want Apple to do better with iPhone but this is clearly the wrong avenue to take.


Dave
post #154 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphdaily View Post

I'm in Birmingham, AL and love my 3G. It is much faster than the original iPhone and I have not had a dropped call.

Ralph
Birmingham, AL

suspicious post.
post #155 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

... I am looking at the longer term damage in the reputation for Apple than just the iPhone.

There will be no long term damage as this is not a major issue. Apple, like every other company in this country, gets sued for countless reasons, some of them are even credible and deserve a day in court. However, most of them are frivolous and usually filed by people that know nothing about the product or the technology. Obviously this person is a little "slow" and believed Apple's commercials were talking directly to her rather than the general consumer populace. Unfortunately, as with everything related to Apple, it's been blown way out of proportion.

Don't get me wrong, there are obviously some people who are having legitimate problems with their 3G iPhones. This is natural with devices that are mass produced, there's always going to be a certain percentage of defects. However, I'd venture to guess that very few of the connectivity issues originate from the iPhone, I'm gonna have to say most of the complaints are by people who've never had a 3G phone before and live outside or on the edge of a supposed 3G coverage area.

As far as reputation is concerned...

85% Consumer Satisfaction Rate
Possible record levels of Macs sold this (3 million)
Estimated 5 million iPhones sold this quarter

...Apple's is still intact. The original iPhone was a market changing device that ran on an extensive network. The new iPhone is hauling millions of people onto a network that is still in it's infancy in this country. Let's just hope all this leads to AT&T pushing out larger 3G coverage areas. Maybe then I'll consider taking the plunge and upgrading my 2.5G iPhone?
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post #156 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Perhaps those other phones are loading specially made Mobile Websites. You know the really simplified versions they have to make for 'smart phones' unable to run real browsers.

That was going to be my point as well, of course the Nokia will load a site faster when it is ignoring much of the data to load.
post #157 of 212
I just went to http://i.dslr.net/tinyspeedtest.html to test out my speed using various methods. What I like about the site is that it lists today's and all time stats for the various connection type. Note: this is just for iPhone users and one can fudge the stats by choosing an incorrect connection type but it does give some information as what one may expect.

Tests were done in on the first floor of a 4 story hotel about 20 feet from the closest exterior wall while being held in my hand. All tests were completed 3x to get the mean average.

My Stats:
EDGE ..210kbps
HSDPA 1.15Mbps

Stats:.. .All Time . . . . .Today
GPRS .. 40kbps/1535ms . . 32kbps/1941ms
EDGE . 143kbps/ 873ms . .144kbps/ 836ms
3G .. .724kbps/ 446ms . .723kbps/ 435ms
WiFi .2.39Mbps/ 163ms . 2.24Mbps/ 164ms
. . . . .(speed/latency)
That is an average of 5x faster.
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post #158 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

That was going to be my point as well, of course the Nokia will load a site faster when it is ignoring much of the data to load.

What like Steves demo, comparing a Nokia loading a flash animation, to the iPhone not loading it?
post #159 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

What like Steves demo, comparing a Nokia loading a flash animation, to the iPhone not loading it?

Tell the iPhone to load 1MB and the Nokia to load the same 1MB and have them both connected to 3G w/ the same number of bars and the iPhone will win every single time. As I said before the processor in the iPhone dwarfs the one in the Nokia and will render the page quicker. Unless of course you think my 12" PB should load pages as fast a new MB.
post #160 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

Tell the iPhone to load 1MB and the Nokia to load the same 1MB and have them both connected to 3G w/ the same number of bars and the iPhone will win every single time. As I said before the processor in the iPhone dwarfs the one in the Nokia and will render the page quicker. Unless of course you think my 12" PB should load pages as fast a new MB.


Which Nokia?
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