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Repeat tests show iPhone 3G doesn't suffer from faulty hardware - Page 3

post #81 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by el3ktro View Post

People, don't rely on how many bars the iPhone displays! You should actually do a speed test! I ran a speed test this afternoon while being near to my work place, just right in the city center of Cologne, Germany, with lots of people around me. I had full UMTS reception (4-5 bars). Using testmyiphone.com, I had the following downloading speeds:

2.32 MBps, 2.93 MBps, 2.8 MBps (ran the test 3 times)

This evening, I ran another test at my home place where I usually have very low UMTS reception (only 1-2 bars). I expected to have very bad download speeds, but surprise, surprise:

2.3 MBps, 2.69 MBps, 2.08 MBps (ran 3 tests again)

Though my iPhone displayed a much worse UMTS reception, download speeds have been comparable, only insignificantly lower.

MBps?? Are you sure about that? I think it's more like Mbps. There is a difference.
post #82 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I wish you would keep your simple agreement statements to yourself. You offer no follow up.
Who are you- High Priest of the Apple Council?

Yes. (Simple agreement statement).

How did you know? (Follow up).
post #83 of 147
When the phone switches from 3G to EDGE the radio is not behaving as it should. The radio is supposed to ALWAYS give priority to Voice. By now everyone probably knows EDGE and GSM use the same radio. Only one can be engaged at the same time. This radio is designed (or supposed to be designed) to not drop calls if it looses 3G and falls back to EDGE, it should stay in GSM until the call ends. The iPhone is NOT doing this, instead it turns on EDGE.

I agree that AT&T has network issues that are not helping anything but this issue is far more severe then just a network issue.

While AT&T needs to fix their network for more capacity, the way the green infineon chipset is performing is also a major issue.
post #84 of 147
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post #85 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy13 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

Yet again the Apple hating portion of the media put the blame on Apple for the faults of the network provider.

I bet they'll be extremely quiet about the fact that the hardware is perfectly adequate in terms of 3G support.

Anyone written an iPhone app that measures your phone signal and type (3.5G, 3G, EDGE, GPRS, 2G), gets your GPS location, does a speed test, and then sends it to a website to view AT&T signal quality on a far more granular basis?

I'm working on a speed test website which should launch later today which allows the user to select their state / city. So hopefully people use it and I can put together some interesting data. I think it would be cool to have it in an app to automatically get your location, but not sure you can measure signal strength with an app. If I ever get accepted into the app store program I will probably create it in app form if possible.

Well I finally finished the first public version of the speed test. Check it out and let me know what you think. Also, just go into the apple dev program so maybe I can bring this as a true app in the future.

http://my3gspeed.com
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post #86 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinman View Post

Good point Dave. The antenna could be fine, but a faulty chipset/firmware could still muck up calls and connections. The real question is if AT&T's other 3G devices are experiencing this problem, and if they are, how come we're not hearing about it.

Because those users are not the extremely high expectations or I'll post it on an Apple site types. Really, if your Sony Ericsson or Blackberry or LG conectivity suck, where is the forum that has immediate worldwide visibility? It just doesn't exist in those markets unless something catastrophic happens.
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post #87 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

what's amusing it that, according to all the articles, Apple offered this gig to all the companies and only ATT was willing to step up to Apple's conditions.

apparently the gig was that the carrier would chip in a major piece of the devo costs in exchange for the exclusive contract which would allow for payback of the money. akin to the whole 'we'll give you your new phone for free and you will use us for 2 years' gig that subscribers get.

but the other boys balked because Apple wanted total design control. they weren't willing to give the carrier a say in how the phone was designed, what hardware or software etc. which is not the norm with such deals. ATT said okay and got the gig.

and now the others are probably kicking themselves

Except that we don't know if any of that is true.
post #88 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leithal View Post

Now we can bury the 3G chipset and iPhone suck debate and maybe move on to dealing with application issues...

Like:

1) updates done on my iPhone crashing the phone - till i restore it.

2) apps wiping out their data

3) and proper push.

Don't get me wrong... I love my iPhone - I just want the obvious fixed.

I haven't had the first two problems, and i have a fair number of apps.

The third will be completed later, as Apple has said, supposedly in September.

You can't complain about something that we were all told wouldn't be available for at least a month until AFTER, we're supposed to have it.
post #89 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Ok I've corrected my spelling mistake(s). But you should not get so angry over spelling errors and think before you write especially when you think you cannot edit after hitting submit. Is this a spelling bee forum?

Officially? Only when Mr. H is around.
post #90 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdj View Post

Why doesn't Apple just admit they made a mistake going with AT&T and move on? Seriously, could they have picked a worse carrier in the US?

And which other GSM carrier in the US should they have gone with instead?
post #91 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

My error. Old age.

Interesting

Date.......................................... April 2, 2007*
Total Mobile Subscribers................ 478.4 million
Total 3G.......................................... 45 million

Date ...........................................End May, 2008†
Total Mobile Subscribers...............910.8 million
Total 3G......................................101.5 million

* http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/April2007/4516.htm"]http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/April2007/4516.htm

http://www.unwiredview.com/2008/06/2...s-100-million/

The story here though, is that the percentage has barely changed. It's pretty low, which is what I've been trying to get across for a while now. It's also why I've thought that 3G isn't really all that important in Europe, or most anywhere yet, though some here have insisted that it is.

Just because a service is available doesn't mean that larger percentages of people will get it.
post #92 of 147
I've figured since day one that although there may indeed be a small amount ( < 0.01%) of customers with truly faulty hardware, most of the reported "Iphone 3G problems" really probably had to do with the crappy 3G coverage provided by AT&T.

- How many people complaining about a poor 3G signal in a given area never objectively compared the iPhone to another 3G device?
- How many people complaining about a poor 3G signal in a given area wrongly compared the iPhone to another phone running on a DIFFERENT NETWORK, instead of an AT&T 3G phone?
- etc
post #93 of 147
They really need to fix this article to make it accurate. The engineers DID NOT say all of the hardware and software worked properly. They only said the ANTENNA worked properly. There is a big difference. The editor is stretching what they said to encompass things they did not say.
post #94 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

I've figured since day one that although there may indeed be a small amount ( < 0.01%) of customers with truly faulty hardware, most of the reported "Iphone 3G problems" really probably had to do with the crappy 3G coverage provided by AT&T.

- How many people complaining about a poor 3G signal in a given area never objectively compared the iPhone to another 3G device?
- How many people complaining about a poor 3G signal in a given area wrongly compared the iPhone to another phone running on a DIFFERENT NETWORK, instead of an AT&T 3G phone?
- etc

I have tested my unit in the AT&T stores against other units and other iPhones. I have tested it all across the USA including, Orlando, FL (Disney World, & Airport), Dallas Airport, TX, Washington, D.C. & Alexandria, VA, Riverside, CA, Norco, CA, Newport Beach, CA, Seattle, WA, Bremerton, WA to name just a few of the places. Everywhere it drops calls, says call didn't go through, can have intermittent data connectivity and performance that varies from 30kbps to 600kbps.

Walk into any AT&T store and compare. Be careful they usually have the iPhone set to EDGE or WiFi to hide the poor signal performance. I have also had the phone replaced with no significant change in performance.
post #95 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by barjohn View Post

They really need to fix this article to make it accurate. The engineers DID NOT say all of the hardware and software worked properly. They only said the ANTENNA worked properly. There is a big difference. The editor is stretching what they said to encompass things they did not say.

You want to calm down a little?
post #96 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The story here though, is that the percentage has barely changed. It's pretty low, which is what I've been trying to get across for a while now. It's also why I've thought that 3G isn't really all that important in Europe, or most anywhere yet, though some here have insisted that it is.

Just because a service is available doesn't mean that larger percentages of people will get it.

How many of these 3G-capable phones actually pay and use data services on them? Stateside i know several people that don't, but I do know that it is required sales from pretty much avery nation's carrier.
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post #97 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How many of these 3G-capable phones actually pay and use data services on them? Stateside i know several people that don't, but I do know that it is required sales from pretty much avery nation's carrier.

When you look at the fact that only about 100 million of over 900 million are high speed accounts, you realize that it's a small number percentagewise. It's only about 11.14%.

That means that almost 90% of all phone users are on slow services. That's why the old iPhone has proven to be so popular around the world.
I don't know which of all those carriers require hi speed accounts or even data services. It would be interesting, to say the least, to know this. We do hear that many Japanese who have these complicated phones with all these special services never use them. I would suppose the same thing is true elsewhere, even if they pay for the basic ones.
post #98 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

AT&T is in the build stage. Actually one of the reasons why Apple didn't jump into 3G in the first place. (Interesting, but as of Dec 27, there were only 45 million 3G subscribers in Europe.)

I am not sure with what you mean by 3G subscribers. When I get my contract here in Finland, 3G is simply part of it. Do you mean dedicated bandwidth? I can use all the 3G I want but I can also ask for dedicated 1 or 2 meg and pay for this dedicated bandwidth.

Oh, 45 million subscibers is quite a bit in any study.
post #99 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryd View Post

The tests tell us that under laboratory conditions, the Phone works to spec. It does not tell us whether the iPhone works out in the real world.

The iPhone may very well be working perfectly in the real world. It may very well be a lemon. This test doesn't address the real world situations people are complaining about.


A phone's physical design encourages people to hold it in their hands a certain way, and hold it a certain distance from their head. With a badly designed phone, these simple actions might block the signal. That would be a major problem that would NOT show up under the type of standard testing conditions described.


I'm not saying their is a problem with the iPhone 3G. I'm just saying laboratory tests don't always tell us about real world performance.

One of the few that get it.
post #100 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

When you look at the fact that only about 100 million of over 900 million are high speed accounts, you realize that it's a small number percentagewise. It's only about 11.14%.

That 100 million is in the EU, where did you get that out of 900 million figure from?
post #101 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

I hate these generalized quotes. I have had 6 different phones since I have been with AT&T and the worst was the RAZR I have had 2 LG phones 1 RAZR 1 SLVR and both iPhones. The LG phone I had also used 3G but was pointless because it was just a standard flip phone. The call quality was good though and so is the new iPhone 3g. The call quality is fantastic. The Quality itself is good the problem is there are too few towers. So lets solve this problem. Lets make this phone amazing. I have 2 requests. 1 for apple and 1 for AT&T.

AT&T: Build more god damn towers!!!! Stop wasting time! 3g is where everyone is going not only for the iPhone so lets get those damn towers going please.

Apple: Fix all of the LAG!!!! My old 1st Gen iphone now lags after 2.0 and my iPhone 3g lags. It is frustrating.

More towers do not necessarily equate to better service. The key is more antenna. You can put them on the sides of buildings, on silos, etc... Coupled with this is a state of the art OSS and BSS, not to mention MSC. AT&T can build until the cows come home but if the core network is crap, things will not likely change.
post #102 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

This, I totally agree with.

I thought the article proved that the ANTENNA section was not faulty. Where did this leap that the hardware is not faulty come from? Oh, never mind. AI reporting again.
post #103 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I am not sure with what you mean by 3G subscribers. When I get my contract here in Finland, 3G is simply part of it. Do you mean dedicated bandwidth? I can use all the 3G I want but I can also ask for dedicated 1 or 2 meg and pay for this dedicated bandwidth.

Oh, 45 million subscibers is quite a bit in any study.

But it looks as though those numbers are not European numbers. I doubt if Europe has over 910 million cell subscribers. They only have about half that number of people.
post #104 of 147
Saw a friend's iPhone 3G today in the Los Angeles area, Valencia to be specific. The 3G worked great. She lives in Burbank and has a full 3G signal at home too. She primarily uses the phone with Edge (smart) to conserve battery and flips on 3G whenever needed.

The phone was currently running 2.0.1. I told her to update the phone to 2.0.2. Even with 2.0.1, flipping on 3G only took a few seconds to acquire the 3G network. I downloaded a few webpages and compared it to my original iPhone. 3G wasn't blazing fast, but it was noticibly faster than Edge. Depending on the network and sites you are browsing, yes, it was about 2x faster than Edge.

The phone works as advertised. I think the big complainers bought the phone without checking AT&T's 3G network coverage, and then found out they are in an area with limited coverage and complain instead of returning the phone.
post #105 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by heffeque View Post

Wow... I didn't know that there was a Birmingham in the US, seriously (o_O)


The 8525 is UMTS (3G), the iPhone 3G is actually 3.5G (HSDPA), but I guess "iPhone three point five gee" or "iPhone three and a half gee" were a little bit too long for marketing reasons :-P

Doesn't matter. UMTS is UMTS. Be it 3G or 3.5G.
post #106 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But it looks as though those numbers are not European numbers. I doubt if Europe has over 910 million cell subscribers. They only have about half that number of people.

I know. I started to get scared. I was thinking there were some night people or something hidden that I did not know about.

Maybe you can explain it to me. When anyone in Europe as far as I know gets a newer phone, 3G is automatically a part of it. They can access 3G speeds. Is this study talking about this or the fact that they are purchasing QoS and paying for dedicated bandwidth?

Just saw this: http://www.cellular.co.za/news_2004/...western_eu.htm
post #107 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The story here though, is that the percentage has barely changed. It's pretty low, which is what I've been trying to get across for a while now. It's also why I've thought that 3G isn't really all that important in Europe, or most anywhere yet, though some here have insisted that it is.

Just because a service is available doesn't mean that larger percentages of people will get it.

Sorry melgross, have to jump in here and I might even answer my question that I just put to you. In our embassy we have some people that are out all day and need to use data to check their emails. We simply have unlimited data activated on their subscription. The phone was already capable of 3G data services, just that there is now a dedicated service behind it. They could use a sort of per usage type of well, usage which is expensive or they can now have unlimited data usage. If the study was looking at my first description then it is wrong as here in Finland probably the rest of Europe 3G is already active without a subscription.
post #108 of 147
My problem is not the speed of 3G. It is fast when you can get it. My basic problem is that as a phone the iphone doesn't work very well. At least in the center of Los Angeles. There are many dead zones. When you do make a call the quality is poor and the call cannot be maintained if you are driving beyond a few minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Saw a friend's iPhone 3G today in the Los Angeles area, Valencia to be specific. The 3G worked great. She lives in Burbank and has a full 3G signal at home too. She primarily uses the phone with Edge (smart) to conserve battery and flips on 3G whenever needed.

The phone was currently running 2.0.1. I told her to update the phone to 2.0.2. Even with 2.0.1, flipping on 3G only took a few seconds to acquire the 3G network. I downloaded a few webpages and compared it to my original iPhone. 3G wasn't blazing fast, but it was noticibly faster than Edge. Depending on the network and sites you are browsing, yes, it was about 2x faster than Edge.

The phone works as advertised. I think the big complainers bought the phone without checking AT&T's 3G network coverage, and then found out they are in an area with limited coverage and complain instead of returning the phone.
post #109 of 147
This is why I am having a problem with the study regarding 3G penetration subscriptions.

Finland has only about 5.2 million people but they will have 113% penetration.

http://wirelessfederation.com/news/t...-mark-finland/
post #110 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryd View Post

The tests tell us that under laboratory conditions, the Phone works to spec. It does not tell us whether the iPhone works out in the real world.

The iPhone may very well be working perfectly in the real world. It may very well be a lemon. This test doesn't address the real world situations people are complaining about.


A phone's physical design encourages people to hold it in their hands a certain way, and hold it a certain distance from their head. With a badly designed phone, these simple actions might block the signal. That would be a major problem that would NOT show up under the type of standard testing conditions described.


I'm not saying their is a problem with the iPhone 3G. I'm just saying laboratory tests don't always tell us about real world performance.

Exactly! Though I haven't seen the full specifications of the laboratory test setup there are the following factors to consider: the HEAD and the HAND:

HEAD: From what one can see on the pictures in the swedish newspaper. The iPhone is operated in free-space during the test. If this was really the case this is the first weak point in the study. I expect that, because the iphone shows pretty high SAR for its size and having the antenna in the lower part. (advantage of that antenna location usally is that the SAR is pretty low when tested on the head) With a good antenna/low-SAR design I would expect one could a factor of 10 reduction in SAR. (remember all energy you lose/absorb in the users head wont be available in the communication channel)

HAND: How are you holding your phone? With a low loss dielectric holder or your hand which covers the whole antenna part with your palm. (this is the disadvantage of having an antenna at the lower end of the phone). Quick test: It make a difference of 2 bars on my iPhone 3G when I cover the lower part of the phone with my hand or not!
post #111 of 147
I went to the Apple store today- the 4th time in a week- with a problem of email not being fetched automatically. They restored my phone 3 times and each time it did not recognize that the phone had been restored and asked if I wanted to continue the restore which the Genius did 3 times. Finally they took my Macbook, turned it upside down, removed the battery and held the power button in for 30 seconds. They then activated my iphone as a new phone rather then a restore. That worked but they were unable to sync my music and photos so they uninstalled iTunes and then reinstalled it, then re-synced my phone and now I have music and pictures but the email still will not work. When they handed my Macbook back to me, there was a large scratch on the top cover, from where they had turned in over to remove the battery. Found out then that the employee that did this was not a genius just a helpful employee, who did the damage. They were going to replace my Macbook until they found out it was a 2.2 previous generation not the current 2.4. I then offered to pay the difference between my Macbook and a new Macbook Pro but the manager decided to order a new case for my Macbook meaning I will be without it for a while. I still want to pay the difference and get an undamaged computer so I am hoping for a positive outcome. I asked about returning the iPhone and was informed that only ATT has a 30 day return policy not Apple who has a 14 day return policy on all equipment. Apple stated I could terminate my ATT contract but could not return iPhone as the 14 days were up. I thought Apple was customer oriented but I am sorely disappointed.
post #112 of 147
A few interesting bits of information:

1. The report only concludes that the antenna isn't at fault. It isn't that hard to design an antenna, so we can probably assume that Apple got that part right.

2. It says nothing about the capability, sensitivity, or build quality of the phone's radio, which is what was speculated to be causing the problem in the first place.

3. They only tested at 1900 MHz and 2100 MHz. AT&T in the US uses both 1900 MHz and 850 MHz. 850 MHz, to be used properly, requires an antenna twice as long as one tuned to 1900 MHz (though an antenna designed for 850 should work fine for 1900). So if they didn't test at 850 MHz, we just don't know for sure how well it is going to perform on AT&T's network.

4. The chart showing sensitivity lists the units as deciBels (which is normal for signal reception). But deciBels are logarithmic, so a difference of 2dB is actually significant. When taken into consideration that a difference of 3dB is an approximate doubling of signal power, a 2dB difference actually can mean a difference between picking up and not picking up a signal under some circumstances.

5. Given that some users are having problems, while others aren't, tends to indicate that the problem probably isn't a fundamental design flaw. It's more likely found in the implementation in a given device.

For AppleInsider to extrapolate that the iPhone 3G doesn't suffer from faulty hardware is a bit of a stretch from the results of an antenna test.
post #113 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdj View Post

A few interesting bits of information:

1. The report only concludes that the antenna isn't at fault. It isn't that hard to design an antenna, so we can probably assume that Apple got that part right.

2. It says nothing about the capability, sensitivity, or build quality of the phone's radio, which is what was speculated to be causing the problem in the first place.

3. They only tested at 1900 MHz and 2100 MHz. AT&T in the US uses both 1900 MHz and 850 MHz. 850 MHz, to be used properly, requires an antenna twice as long as one tuned to 1900 MHz (though an antenna designed for 850 should work fine for 1900). So if they didn't test at 850 MHz, we just don't know for sure how well it is going to perform on AT&T's network.

4. The chart showing sensitivity lists the units as deciBels (which is normal for signal reception). But deciBels are logarithmic, so a difference of 2dB is actually significant. When taken into consideration that a difference of 3dB is an approximate doubling of signal power, a 2dB difference actually can mean a difference between picking up and not picking up a signal under some circumstances.

5. Given that some users are having problems, while others aren't, tends to indicate that the problem probably isn't a fundamental design flaw. It's more likely found in the implementation in a given device.

For AppleInsider to extrapolate that the iPhone 3G doesn't suffer from faulty hardware is a bit of a stretch from the results of an antenna test.

You are my hero. Would you agree that more testing should have been done in different environments to determine a baseline performance standard across all frequencies.
post #114 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I am not sure with what you mean by 3G subscribers. When I get my contract here in Finland, 3G is simply part of it. Do you mean dedicated bandwidth? I can use all the 3G I want but I can also ask for dedicated 1 or 2 meg and pay for this dedicated bandwidth.

Oh, 45 million subscibers is quite a bit in any study.

Boy, are you late in the conversation. As I updated the number to 100 million as of May 2008 and included the reference http://www.unwiredview.com/2008/06/2...s-100-million/, which states in part,

"The report says that out of the total 910.8 million mobile subscribers (in Europe) at the end of May, there were 101.5 million 3G subscriptions. Only devices that were actively used for either voice or data services (or both) were counted."
post #115 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Boy, are you late in the conversation. As I updated the number to 100 million as of May 2008 and included the reference http://www.unwiredview.com/2008/06/2...s-100-million/, which states in part,

"The report says that out of the total 910.8 million mobile subscribers (in Europe) at the end of May, there were 101.5 million 3G subscriptions. Only devices that were actively used for either voice or data services (or both) were counted."

Just so I know how to respond to you in the future, were you sort of speaking in a condescending tone? I do not want to be accused of jumping on your for no reason. I asked my question because the study did not make sense as 3G is included in ALL phone subscriptions. You can request a specific speed (subscription as well), or simply pay as you use. If my question was too hard for you then next time just ignore it.
post #116 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Just so I know how to respond to you in the future, were you sort of speaking in a condescending tone? I do not want to be accused of jumping on your for no reason. I asked my question because the study did not make sense as 3G is included in ALL phone subscriptions. You can request a specific speed (subscription as well), or simply pay as you use. If my question was too hard for you then next time just ignore it.

I apologize if you so think so.

But to which of the two (actually only one) studies I referenced were you referring?

"European 3G subscriber count reaches 100 million
Market research firm Informa Telecoms has released a report that says the number of 3G subscribers in Europe has reached and surpassed the 100 millionth mark.

The report says that out of the total 910.8 million mobile subscribers at the end of May, there were 101.5 million 3G subscriptions. Only devices that were actively used for either voice or data services (or both) were counted."
http://www.unwiredview.com/2008/06/2...s-100-million/

My involvement as a researcher and a creature of habit, I tend to support my statements/positioning with accompanying references. And, I expect similar action in response. I also explore the links to ensure accuracy and try to acknowledge my errors in kind.

Just for clarification, my initial comment that started this all, i.e., "AT&T is in the build stage. Actually one of the reasons why Apple didn't jump into 3G in the first place. (Interesting, but as of Dec 27, there were only 45 million 3G subscribers in Europe.)" was, as I later acknowledge, in error. The study report was for April 2, approximately 3 months before the iPhone was introduced.

As such, my original declaration was correct, the supported date was wrong.
post #117 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I apologize if you so think so.

But to which of the two (actually only one) studies I referenced were you referring?

"European 3G subscriber count reaches 100 million
Market research firm Informa Telecoms has released a report that says the number of 3G subscribers in Europe has reached and surpassed the 100 millionth mark.

The report says that out of the total 910.8 million mobile subscribers at the end of May, there were 101.5 million 3G subscriptions. Only devices that were actively used for either voice or data services (or both) were counted."
http://www.unwiredview.com/2008/06/2...s-100-million/

My involvement as a researcher and a creature of habit, I tend to support my statements/positioning with accompanying references. And, I expect similar action in response. I also explore the links to ensure accuracy and try to acknowledge my errors in kind.

Just for clarification, my initial comment that started this all, i.e., "AT&T is in the build stage. Actually one of the reasons why Apple didn't jump into 3G in the first place. (Interesting, but as of Dec 27, there were only 45 million 3G subscribers in Europe.)" was, as I later acknowledge, in error. The study report was for April 2, approximately 3 months before the iPhone was introduced.

As such, my original declaration was correct, the supported date was wrong.

Hell, now I am confused. I think it was the data compiled that confused me. I was basing this solely on my own experiences living here in Finland, and Europe in general. Many to most people have no idea that they are using 3G at all even if they check their email or surf the web for just a min to check something. I was wondering where the "subscription" concept came in when all sim cards are 3G enabled in the first place. Wouldn't you have to actually count sim cards issued rather than some other number?

I'm just throwing it out. I am not really sure what they used to say is or is not a subscription.
post #118 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I know. I started to get scared. I was thinking there were some night people or something hidden that I did not know about.

Maybe you can explain it to me. When anyone in Europe as far as I know gets a newer phone, 3G is automatically a part of it. They can access 3G speeds. Is this study talking about this or the fact that they are purchasing QoS and paying for dedicated bandwidth?

Just saw this: http://www.cellular.co.za/news_2004/...western_eu.htm

I have to admit that I haven't studied this situation. But the numbers speak for themselves. Only a small percentage of users are on 3G networks. How or why I don't know. It just is.

It's possible that buying a phone in most places doesn't automatically place you in a 3G network. One may have to apply for it when getting their phone and contract. Most people don't seem to want to pay for it.

It looks to me as though the situation is really not that different from where it was a few years ago when the 3G networks were being installed and pushed. I remember quite well that customers in both Japan and Europe wanted nothing to do with it. Companies all over were complaining that their sign-up rates were far below expectations.

My suspicion why the cell companies are so eager for the iPhone is for exactly that very reason. iPhone users are practically the totality of data users around the world when talking about mobile use.

All of the rest of the phones put together are but a small percentage of iPhone usage. That fact has got those companies excited, because they see that with the iPhone, users will finally want 3G for real, and will finally use it for real. That means more 3G subscribers added to their anemic 3G subscriber lists, and more profits for themfinally!

All this talk about how much earlier these areas went to 3G has really been meaningless until the new iPhone appeared. This is what will make it meaningful, and that obviously includes Japan, where 3G is NOT nearly as popular as some people here insist it is. The numbers show that.

And, of course, it won't just be the iPhone. Other manufacturers, in copying the device in their own small ways will make it easier for other phones to use the data services as well, though with their second rate OS's, those phones won't be equal to the iPhone for a couple of years, and I would imagine that during that time, Apple wont be standing still.

Just using a program that has the Open GL acceleration is amazing.
post #119 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Sorry melgross, have to jump in here and I might even answer my question that I just put to you. In our embassy we have some people that are out all day and need to use data to check their emails. We simply have unlimited data activated on their subscription. The phone was already capable of 3G data services, just that there is now a dedicated service behind it. They could use a sort of per usage type of well, usage which is expensive or they can now have unlimited data usage. If the study was looking at my first description then it is wrong as here in Finland probably the rest of Europe 3G is already active without a subscription.

You said the magic word, and the rubber ducky just dropped down on its string.

You work for the "embassy". How many others in any country work for embassies? Not many I would expect. most "normal" people simply haven't been willing to spend the money for these expensive connections.

Even RIM hasn't been using 3G. Only now, with the challenge of the iPhone will they be pushing it. It really isn't required for most uses, business or otherwise. In fact, for most use it will be a consumer thing rather than a business or governmental thing. And most consumers can't afford what business and government can. They need to be persuaded, and so far, they haven't been in large numbers.
post #120 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I have to admit that I haven't studied this situation. But the numbers speak for themselves. Only a small percentage of users are on 3G networks. How or why I don't know. It just is.

It's possible that buying a phone in most places doesn't automatically place you in a 3G network. One may have to apply for it when getting their phone and contract. Most people don't seem to want to pay for it.

[...]

I'm sorry to say I haven't followed the whole thread. so forgive if I'm covering old territory, but could that mean even if a phone is capable of 3G that the phone may just use GSM if a data plan is not enabled?
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