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Symbian reports slow growth in the wake of the iPhone 3G launch - Page 5

post #161 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

You are talking ONLY about the US right? Outside of the US, I have not heard of any operator blocking the phone from being tethered. If you have a BT phone and BT on your computer you have a tether. No software involved. Windows supports it via DUN, while the ability it built into the Mac already.

You have not HEARD?

Since we know it can easily be done, what would the advantage to Apple be for not allowing it?

They would sell more phones, there would be more iPhone data usage.

There would be nothing I can think of that would be a detriment.

Are you privy to the contracts Apple has signed with these carriers?
post #162 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


The problem with the iPhone is that Apple put in a crappy, less functional BT stack. It only supports Headset while every phone I have had for the last 5 or 6 years has supported a complete BT stack. So the problem resides at Apple and the way they implemented BT on the iPhone.

Brother, what's the matter with people here?

How many times have I said that a program was out that allowed tethering easily?

It works just fine. It's just that it was withdrawn because of contractual issues.

http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/31/...pp-for-iphone/

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itune...s&newsid=22285
post #163 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They are working on just that, too. I can't say how successful I think they will be but I was impressed that they publicly acknowledged this as a major issue. This year they have purchased Symbian outright, TrollTech and are working with Mozilla to get FF to Symbian.

The fact that Nokia are responding is good. But what can they do?

Nokia has a billion and one phones. A lot of them at the low-end of the market. The trouble is, there's very little money to be made down there.

It is at the top-end of the market, where rich people buy phones, that stuff gets interesting.
Here's my attempt to list the various uses people want for their top-end phones. (and which device does it best)

Everyone's list might be different. But in my list, Symbian devices don't appear too often.

1) Most Desirable Device (iPhone)
2) Best Media Experience . (iPhone)
3) Best Email. (Blackberry)
4) Best Web. (iPhone)
5) Best Photography (Nokia / Sony Ericsson - note: not a software feature)
6) Best Applications (iPhone)
7) Best GPS (Nokia)
8) Best Corporate Device (Blackberry)

The fight for the top-end is about desirability and software.
Nokia could hire better industrial designers to make more desirable devices. But the software issue seems too massive. I am not sure what Symbian could possibly do to to see the Symbian platform come close to Cocoa.

C.
post #164 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

We can go round and round on this. You can not convince me otherwise nor can I convince you, so we agree to disagree. To me, my opinion, as I see it, the iPhone is simply an iPod that can make calls.

We can drop this one. It'sfine with me.

But, as you had your final shot, I must be allowed to have mine.

I don't agree. The iPhone does much more than act as a phone, and iPod. But, you can continue to think what you want, as I believe that many other smartphones stink.
post #165 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You have not HEARD?

Since we know it can easily be done, what would the advantage to Apple be for not allowing it?

They would sell more phones, there would be more iPhone data usage.

There would be nothing I can think of that would be a detriment.

Are you privy to the contracts Apple has signed with these carriers?

I was responding to this statement you made:
Quote:
Most BT enabled phones don't have that either yet. Google just removed the possibility from its own OS, Android, and said that it would likely be back at some unknown time in the future

I was simply stating that outside of US operators, I have not seen the use of tethering limited.

Privy to contracts, no but I did ask a few friends at Sonera and they have given me the impression that Apple is making the demands on the operators.
post #166 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Why just this market? This is only one market. I would be willing to see what they do globally.

It is probably a test to see if it can challenge the iPhone in sales that way. If it does, they might do it elsewhere. If it doesn't, they will likely keep prices high elsewhere.
post #167 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Brother, what's the matter with people here?

How many times have I said that a program was out that allowed tethering easily?

It works just fine. It's just that it was withdrawn because of contractual issues.

http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/31/...pp-for-iphone/

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itune...s&newsid=22285

Melgross, do you understand about the BT stack? You can implement everything except tethering, but Apple didn't. Nullriver has nothing to do with this. Apple implemented a crippled BT stack and there is no getting around this.
post #168 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The fact that Nokia are responding is good. But what can they do?

Nokia has a billion and one phones. A lot of them at the low-end of the market. The trouble is, there's very little money to be made down there.

It is at the top-end of the market, where rich people buy phones, that stuff gets interesting.
Here's my attempt to list the various uses people want for their top-end phones. (and which device does it best)

Everyone's list might be different. But in my list, Symbian devices don't appear too often.

1) Most Desirable Device (iPhone)
2) Best Media Experience . (iPhone)
3) Best Email. (Blackberry)
4) Best Web. (iPhone)
5) Best Photography (Nokia / Sony Ericsson - note: not a software feature)
6) Best Applications (iPhone)
7) Best GPS (Nokia)
8) Best Corporate Device (Blackberry)

The fight for the top-end is about desirability and software. I am not sure what Symbian could possibly do to to see the Symbian platform come close to Cocoa.

C.

Nice list! They would have to focus on their high-end and they will have to change the UI. I don't know if they can do it, but not many though Apple could make a phone or stave off dying, much less being the success that it is today. We don't know if they will succeed on the high-end front, but they do have hardcore fans that rival Apple's, they have acknowledged the issues and they have taken steps to address the issues. I say we shouldn't make any bets on Nokia until we see what their new UI is going to look like.
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post #169 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It is probably a test to see if it can challenge the iPhone in sales that way. If it does, they might do it elsewhere. If it doesn't, they will likely keep prices high elsewhere.

I agree. I think Nokia is testing the waters before they launch their new phones.
post #170 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I was responding to this statement you made:

I was simply stating that outside of US operators, I have not seen the use of tethering limited.

Privy to contracts, no but I did ask a few friends at Sonera and they have given me the impression that Apple is making the demands on the operators.

I'm beginning to wonder about those contacts. What they keep telling you seems to be more defensive guessing than anything else.

Exactly what reasons did they give you as to why Apple would care about this?

You know it makes no sense. It costs Apple nothing, and is to its advantage to allow it where it is allowed.

The only thing I can think of, is that it's possible that allowing software to be available ANYWHERE that would allow it SOMEWHERE, would violate contracts where it isn't allowed, by the mere fact that it could be downloaded in one place, and used in another.
post #171 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Nice list! They would have to focus on their high-end and they will have to change the UI. I don't know if they can do it, but not many though Apple could make a phone or stave off dying, much less being the success that it is today. We don't know if they will succeed on the high-end front, but they do have hardcore fans that rival Apple's, they have acknowledged the issues and they have taken steps to address the issues. I say we shouldn't make any bets on Nokia until we see what their new UI is going to look like.

I hope Nokia succeed, because competition is a good thing. (TM)

My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.

C.
post #172 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

You just proved that you have very little experience. Nokia's phones come with the cards in the slots. The camera's usually default to saving the pictures and videos (iPhone-nope) on the card. People use them.

It may help Nokia's quarterly profits if they stopped including the card.

People thought Apple was crazy when it stopped using parallel ports and floppy disks. In hindsight it was the right thing to do.
post #173 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It may help Nokia's quarterly profits if they stopped including the card.

People thought Apple was crazy when it stopped using parallel ports and floppy disks. In hindsight it was the right thing to do.

You make a good point about the cards but the price is probably figured into the cost of the phone. Also, people have shown that for the most part the standard 1, or 2 gig cards are too small and they are opting for larger 4, 8, or even 16 gig cards.
post #174 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I hope Nokia succeed, because competition is a good thing. (TM)

My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.

C.

While I agree Nokia will continue to have success. Their ability to compete in the smartphone market is whats up for question.

People want to dismiss the the iPhone as a pretty UI. Their is a lot more going on under the hood. The kicker is the fact that development of the iPhone OS and desktop Mac OS complement and inform each other. A situation that will be a serious challenge to compete against.
post #175 of 234
I caught this a short while ago on ARs, interesting numbers on 3G adoption rates both here and in Europe:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...hip-up-80.html
post #176 of 234
I just got my iphone 3g. hooya
post #177 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.

I assume this is why Nokia bought Trolltech (and therefore QT).

I've done development on Symbian and WinMo. WinMo certainly has the better IDE and documentation but Symbian isn't too bad if you're a competent programmer. Nokia's implementation of Python is very nice and you've also got the option of Java, Flash, POSIX C and probably a few other languages. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.
post #178 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

I assume this is why Nokia bought Trolltech (and therefore QT).

I've done development on Symbian and WinMo. WinMo certainly has the better IDE and documentation but Symbian isn't too bad if you're a competent programmer. Nokia's implementation of Python is very nice and you've also got the option of Java, Flash, POSIX C and probably a few other languages. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.

Rich,

As an actual mobile software developer, in your opinion, which platform offers you the best likelihood of making money?

And, have you looked at the iPhone environment and tools?

C.
post #179 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We've been through the tethering thing before. Apple is contractually obligated to do that. Go to AT&T and the other providers for that.

VOIP across 3G is the same thing, a contractual obligation.

We have been through this before, not in all countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Most BT enabled phones don't have that either yet. Google just removed the possibility from its own OS, Android, and said that it would likely be back at some unknown time in the future

What do you mean by most?
post #180 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Really, which companies, and which countries?

And I don't mean the ones that saw they had to open up AFTER the iPhone with iTunes support came out, but before.

A lot of phones had the ability to copy mp3s (and other formats) to the phone way before the iPhone came about
post #181 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No phone anywhere can tether without the express consent of the carrier. It usually involves software that the carrier approves, plus a monthly fee, though I believe that Sprint (through desperation) allows my now not used Treo 700p to tether without a fee, if one already has the data service.

There are a lot of phones that can, as an example, my Nokia E65 can, in fact my carrier has ad-hoc data rates so I can do it without a data plan as well
post #182 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Maybe words from the horses mouth might drive the message home

Seems the horse is paying attention at least. As far as profitability Apple's financials speak for themselves. Each of Apples moves at this point a part of an overall business strategy.

source

That report says that Nokia specifically didn't mention who the competitor with aggressive pricing was. Seems unlikely it's Apple when the iPhone 3G sells for more than Nokia's N series here in Europe.
post #183 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

There are a lot of phones that can, as an example, my Nokia E65 can, in fact my carrier has ad-hoc data rates so I can do it without a data plan as well

Same here.

I've a Nokia 6310 on Orange, An SE T610 on Vodafone, an SE P910i on Orange and a various other phones in the drawer. All allow tethering. I've not had a phone that hasn't since 1998 or so. Paying for tethering seems to be a USA only idea.
post #184 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nokia was not heavily challanged on its own turf for years, if ever, with competitors such as Apple and RIM.

Even though a few here like to pretend that the iPhone and Blackberry aren't good phones in comparison, sales will tell the story.

It doesn't matter that a few think that the more features, the better the device, it;s the customers, in large numbers that make that decision, not the few electronistas here.

Ok, so go look at RIM's sales figures in Europe where Nokia are hot. Almost non-existent.

Most of Nokia's smartphones come with ActiveSync or Blackberry Connect software built in so you've got a Blackberry but then all the other stuff Nokia give you too like 3G, a decent camera and GPS.
post #185 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

As an actual mobile software developer, in your opinion, which platform offers you the best likelihood of making money?

And, have you looked at the iPhone environment and tools?

S60 and WinMo are our big platforms. S60 has the volume but not every S60 user cares about 3rd party apps. WinMo users are usually more open to spending $$$ on apps but obviously there's less of them around. Our business is split roughly equally between them.

We've certainly looked into iPhone development and the whole team is enthusiastic about the trying it. However, the main stumbling block is that our kind of application wouldn't be allowed under the terms of the SDK. There's also some technical limitations of the SDK that would make our lives very diffiult. We've considered releasing something for jailbroken iPhones but that's a whole different can of worms.

I can't really go into what our software does, sorry.

As a bedroom programmer, the iPhone is certainly an attraction prospect. Assuming you own a Mac, the barriers to entry are low and the risks are small. Everyone I know hates Handago, so all these new app stores are very welcome.
post #186 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

However, the main stumbling block is that our kind of application wouldn't be allowed under the terms of the SDK.

What rule(s) would it violate?
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post #187 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What rule(s) would it violate?

There's a list of functionality that third parties aren't allowed to provide as part of their app. We would violate one of these. I can't really say any more.
post #188 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

That report says that Nokia specifically didn't mention who the competitor with aggressive pricing was. Seems unlikely it's Apple when the iPhone 3G sells for more than Nokia's N series here in Europe.

So who is it?
post #189 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

So who is it?

I think it's Apple. Many of Nokia's high-end phones retail for more than the iPhone. But I don't think it's about aggressive pricing so much as aggressive selling. The iPhone spent the first half of 2007 in no country, 6 months in the US and only a handful of months in a few more countries. Now it's about 80 countries all offering a subsidy of some sort.
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post #190 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think it's Apple. Many of Nokia's high-end phones retail for more than the iPhone. But I don't think it's about aggressive pricing so much as aggressive selling. The iPhone spent the first half of 2007 in no country, 6 months in the US and only a handful of months in a few more countries. Now it's about 80 countries all offering a subsidy of some sort.

It's not Apple. The iPhone still retails for well above the N-series in Europe and most of the world.

It's most likely Moto, Samsung or LG since they're the companies shipping phones in real volume.
post #191 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

It's not Apple. The iPhone still retails for well above the N-series in Europe and most of the world.

It's most likely Moto, Samsung or LG since they're the companies shipping phones in real volume.

Are we talking about overall marketshare of all cellphones or of the smartphone and/or high-end cellphone marketshare. If it's the former, then Apple would have little impact, but if it's the latter I think that Apple is the reason.

PS: I thought the only people worrying about Moto was Moto.
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post #192 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

We have been through this before, not in all countries

I never said in all countries.

But I did suggest a reason why Apple might not be able to allow it anywhere.

If you download it in a country where it would be allowed without a contract extension, and it is used in countries where contract extensions are allowed, and given, then that would violate those contracts, and very possibly Apple's contracts with those carriers, which likely states that Apple won't allow anything to be downloaded off their site that would allow contract violations with their customers.

Of course, it's also possible that Apple is working with these carriers, and is developing their own software that would work with the carriers billing systems.

Quote:
What do you mean by most?

I read in an article in Computerworld a few months ago, where it said that "most" BT enabled phones just allowed standard telephony headphones. I don't remember anything more specific than that offhand.
post #193 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

As a bedroom programmer, the iPhone is certainly an attraction prospect. Assuming you own a Mac, the barriers to entry are low and the risks are small. Everyone I know hates Handago, so all these new app stores are very welcome.

Rich,
Thanks for your answer.
I am just playing with the iPhone SDK now. Finding out that OpenGL has moved on since I last used it! :-)

C.
post #194 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

A lot of phones had the ability to copy mp3s (and other formats) to the phone way before the iPhone came about

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about downloading, and buying music, from a music store, from the phone, ala the iTunes store. The best we saw, in a few cases, was very expensive pricing, on limited music (when compared to the iTunes library).
post #195 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

There are a lot of phones that can, as an example, my Nokia E65 can, in fact my carrier has ad-hoc data rates so I can do it without a data plan as well

Re-read my post to see exactly what I said.
post #196 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Ok, so go look at RIM's sales figures in Europe where Nokia are hot. Almost non-existent.

Most of Nokia's smartphones come with ActiveSync or Blackberry Connect software built in so you've got a Blackberry but then all the other stuff Nokia give you too like 3G, a decent camera and GPS.

So who do you say is responsible for their falling marketshare in smartphones? Or are you saying it's happening everywhere BUT in Europe?
post #197 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

PS: I thought the only people worrying about Moto was Moto.

A kamikazee attack is still an attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So who do you say is responsible for their falling marketshare in smartphones? Or are you saying it's happening everywhere BUT in Europe?

The original article didn't attempt any analysis beyond "ZOMG IPHONE!!!11", so let me try. It could be down to a number of factors:

- Nokia's lumpy roadmap
- Saturation of the European market
- Changes in Japanese cell phone law
- Increased competition

It's likely to be a combination of all these factors.
post #198 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about downloading, and buying music, from a music store, from the phone, ala the iTunes store. The best we saw, in a few cases, was very expensive pricing, on limited music (when compared to the iTunes library).

In most cases it is still cheaper to buy the CD and rip it, the iTunes store isn't that cheap
post #199 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Re-read my post to see exactly what I said.

I did read exactly what you wrote, and I understand what you said, but as long as the carrier isn't blocking people from using any phone on their network, and they provide ad-hoc data you can tether, regardless of having their express permission
post #200 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I never said in all countries.

But I did suggest a reason why Apple might not be able to allow it anywhere.

yes, and I have said that your suggestion doesn't hold up in all countries, so why restrict it everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I read in an article in Computerworld a few months ago, where it said that "most" BT enabled phones just allowed standard telephony headphones. I don't remember anything more specific than that offhand.

ComputerWorld US? Didn't the US carriers have a habbit of restricting features of their phones? I know Microsoft removed DUN from Windows Mobile, maybe that also has something to do with it
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