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Road to Mac OS X Snow Leopard: 64-bits, Santa Rosa, and the great PC swindle - Page 3

post #81 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by seek3r View Post

What were you guys running that you couldnt get to port easily to a 64bit install? I haven't had issues with 64bit linux (and yes, I'm a debian guy) in a *very* long time. hell, even most precompiled 32bit binaries will prolly run with the 32bit compat libs installed (apt-get install ia32-libs).

Your needs are very clearly different from mine. For example, a lot of software we use cannot simply be recompiled without costing us a butt load of money. Also: again the used of that word "most".

Quote:
Also, as far as separate vers go... debian uses a more "pure" approach than many distros in their 64bit release, hence why it's possible the 32bit libs may not work, then you get the *fun* of creating a 32bit chroot, which may be what your coworker needed (though on lenny it'll be even less of a problem than it is now, which honestly isnt usually much of a problem for most things).

It makes life more complicated though doesn't it? Apple's approach is seemless to users, which is why I believe it is the superior one. It may be scoffed at by Linux hackers, but our users simply want their machines to work, and not to have to fiddle around with chrooted logins and the like.
post #82 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_a_guy View Post

so apparently the 2 gb of memory on my mbp ends up being more useful by default due to the requirements of the mac os vs the PeeCee os, and the peecee users cannot really upgrade their memory to something really usefull anyway.... gee microsoft now you wonder why your OS is so sloooooow!

As a long-time PC/Windows user, I can attest to that. Since I was forced to upgrade to Vista with a new Notebook purchase (a Sony VAIO - it took me HOURS to remove all the bloatware...), the speed at startup and running Outlook, EXCEL, Word, etc. is slower than what I experienced with my 3-year old XP with a much slower processor and less memory...

The same principle applies to cars. The typical consumer compares the performance of cars by horse power. I just test drove a MB ML350 (gasoline) and ML320 CDI (diesel). The gasoline engine has 268 HP, the diesel 215 HP. The gasoline model must be much faster, right? They are basically the same at 7.9 seconds (gasoline) and 8.0 seconds (diesel) respectively, despite a 53 HP advantage by the gasoline model...
post #83 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

That's wrong. There's also XP64 which can use as much ram as a mac (actually more in most cases since there are so many more 64 bit windows apps).

I guess there are probably some windows users who have more ram installed than the system can handle, but there are also plenty of PC users running the 64 bit version of either XP or Vista and using every bit of their ram.

This article is REALLY misleading, it spins things like mac users can use all the ram while PC users can't when in fact PC users can use it all with a 64 bit OS, and there are way more 64 bit apps on the PC side.

I am a typical PC "consumer" and not a "techie". I bought a Sony VAIO notebook that could run VISTA 64-bit but guess what, they did not even give an option to install the 64-bit version due to lack of drivers... And, as I already said in another comment, my Sony VAIO with VISTA is slower than my previous 3-year old notebook running XP.
post #84 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmawm View Post

I am a typical PC "consumer" and not a "techie". I bought a Sony VAIO notebook that could run VISTA 64-bit but guess what, they did not even give an option to install the 64-bit version due to lack of drivers... And, as I already said in another comment, my Sony VAIO with VISTA is slower than my previous 3-year old notebook running XP.

If the version of Vista is Business or Ultimate you can downgrade to XP for free.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9040318
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post #85 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If the version of Vista is Business or Ultimate you can downgrade to XP for free.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9040318

I know I could. And waste another day reinstalling various applications, reinstall all required drivers and move over the data. My experience with XP was not great enough to go through that - startup times after going to sleep is as bad and unreliable with XP as it is with VISTA. Just an example of where the typical non-techie XP or VISTA "consumer" wastes productive time every single day. I will wait for the next MacBook Pro iteration and move on instead of downgrading to XP...

By the way, you are not the only one suggesting a downgrade to XP - even the vendor of my notebook suggested that. What on earth is going on when a consumer is asked to downgrade (at my cost of time) to an earlier version to avoid performance issues?
post #86 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmawm View Post

By the way, you are not the only one suggesting a downgrade to XP - even the vendor of my notebook suggested that. What on earth is going on when a consumer is asked to downgrade (at my cost of time) to an earlier version to avoid performance issues.

You'd get a faster machine which should make up any time spent installing it within a short time.

But there are other options. There is Linux, which you can run right from the DVD drive without installing or you can fiddle with getting OS X installed. The last is difficult but is doable... or so I've heard.

It's a sad state for Windows uses but I think MS has finally realized that you can't keep putting a free coat of paint on the walls of the same sinking foundation forever.
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post #87 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You'd get a faster machine which should make up any time spent installing it within a short time.

But there are other options. There is Linux, which you can run right from the DVD drive without installing or you can fiddle with getting OS X installed. The last is difficult but is doable... or so I've heard.

It's a sad state for Windows uses but I think MS has finally realized that you can't keep putting a free coat of paint on the walls of the same sinking foundation forever.

Thanks for the tips - I think I will wait for a "proper" move to OS X... \
post #88 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

but has a lot to do with one system using modern APIs while the other system is still constrained by API decisions made for 16 bit that have been carried over all the way to 64 bit windows.

And how, quantitatively speaking, in real world terms, speedwise, does that fact matter?
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post #89 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by buststyles View Post

The article did not say the video card uses system memory, but the a video card memory will use the memory addresses that are assigned for system memory(MMIO).
So a 1GB will take up additional address to decrease for example 3 GB of accessible ram to 2GB of accessible ram.
But since you have 64 bit XP this is not a problem for you.

can someone explain this in simple terms the whole point of buying a dedicated graphics card is so that won't use the system memory. I don't understand why it is using the system memory when it already has its own dedicated one?
post #90 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MySchizoBuddy View Post

can someone explain this in simple terms the whole point of buying a dedicated graphics card is so that won't use the system memory. I don't understand why it is using the system memory when it already has its own dedicated one?

It's using it's own RAM, but a 32-bit system can only offer 4GB of memory addressing in total. So if your GPU has 1GB RAM and you need .75GB for MMIO, then you only have 4GB minus 1.75GB = 2.25GB remaining for the OS.

A memory address is an identifier for a memory location, if you have more actual RAM than the system can identify it can't be used. The party is full, no one else can enter.
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post #91 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post

Your needs are very clearly different from mine. For example, a lot of software we use cannot simply be recompiled without costing us a butt load of money. Also: again the used of that word "most".


It makes life more complicated though doesn't it? Apple's approach is seemless to users, which is why I believe it is the superior one. It may be scoffed at by Linux hackers, but our users simply want their machines to work, and not to have to fiddle around with chrooted logins and the like.

I know this is replying to an old thread, but I just saw this.

::grins:: I'll concede the point on the first comment, but I *will* point out that *debian* in particular *isnt* aimed at desktop users. For its target market for direct use (linux enthusiasts, hackers, and server admins) its approach is better, even if it is more complicated (and damn are chroots a PITA :-p). It's secondary market (providing a base for other distros, say ubuntu or knoppix for example) is served well by debian's approach too.

That's all by way of saying neither approach is necessarily better, it's just what market each is catering too.
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also a lot of other systems :-p
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MBP (15, 2.33, 3GB,10.6/win/lin on 250GB)
MP (3,1 oct 2.8, 10GB. 10.6 on 4x1TB RAID10, Win/Lin on 1x2TB, 2407WFP on 1x5770 + 2xSamsung 910t on 1xGT120)
also a lot of other systems :-p
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post #92 of 98
post #93 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by HipPriest View Post

This article is full of misinformation, propaganda, and errors of omission. Apple is hardly an example of a good transition to a 64-bit OS. ..........

Um, so Microsoft is so much more open and forward about how their system is flawed, right?

While I try to be fully open minded, I just get the impression that Microsoft is only after my money, while Apple is trying to bring a great product to market. And replies like this remind me why I like Apple...

And to put it simply, while nothing is perfect in the world, Apple's products suck...... so much less than Microsoft, its just such a refreshing change.

Just a thought.
en
post #94 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

Um, so Microsoft is so much more open and forward about how their system is flawed, right?

Like Apple is tranparent about anything... even their anti-MS ads are so full of holes and contadictions it's not even funny!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

While I try to be fully open minded, I just get the impression that Microsoft is only after my money, while Apple is trying to bring a great product to market.

My wife bought an iMac a little over a year ago. Very similar specs to my notebok. EVERY app ran slower (possibly due to the fact that Macs are hardcoded to us a ma of 90% CPU, which niether Windows or mainstream Linux distros suffer from). The Windows notebook offered a raft of native app free of charge... the Mac was filled with trialware and "free" (gimped) software. I couldn't even run Quicktime in full screen without shellin g out MORE money (or finding a working crack )

To go further, I teach digital arts and IT at a highschool using both Macs an PC's. I can tell you stright off that a PC costing half as much as the Mac equivelent will outrun the Mac EVERY time. Using heavy-duty 3D animation/rendering software. the Mac bings up the infamous spinning dial will the PC continues on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

And replies like this remind me why I like Apple...

Well considering just about every MS forum atracts upteen dozen Mac fanbois raving on about how "you wouldn't have this prob if you were on a Mac" you can shut up and put up!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

And to put it simply, while nothing is perfect in the world, Apple's products suck...... so much less than Microsoft, its just such a refreshing change.

Hmmmm. Apple actively blocks any attempt to reskin the GUI. They slander the competition to sell more product (usually inacurately). They charge more for less. They proactively deny common file-sharing... meaning every app is both bigger and consumes more system resources. MS used to be the barstards of the computer world... Apple has in many ways taken that crown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

Just a thought. en

When you actually have one, enlighten me

As a side note, I used to Love my Macs. It is ignorantly blind twerps such as yourself (and the fact that Apple encourages the likes of you) that moved me to MS. And to respond to the original artical, Win7 x64 Pro and Ultimate is support 192GB of RAM... Apple haven't even released the RAM spec on Snow Leopard yet... so this whole artical is rather pointless!!



As an extra, MS introduced a still unique technology with Vista called ReadyBoost, allowing users to make use of any compatible USB drive (or pretty much any SD card) as extra RAM... a feature which gets around the usual x86 RAM limitations. The only thing I fault MS for is even releasing a x86 version of Win7 to OEM vendors. It's high time the 32 bit OS was killed all together!!
post #95 of 98
Do you think this guy knows he's arguing with a 150 day old post?
Soooo on top of the situation he is.
post #96 of 98
How about the great Apple swindle: selling you computer with 32 GB of RAM for $9000, and then shipping it with 32 bit OS (kernel) that can't use more than 4 GB of it anyway, and the only 64 bit app available to you is chess. Yippie.

And then, they put their marketing department into full gear, and advertise Snow Leopard as yet another "fully" 64 bit OS, when in fact its kernel is also 32 bit (hence 32 bit OS) that's also capable running more of irrelevant 64 bit apps (like mail and calendar), just like Leopard. And if you want 64 bit kernel, you better buy a new computer with that $30 OS update, to get 64 bit kernel, since 2006 Mac Pro (advertised as "64-bit workstation") can't actually run 64 bit kernel. And neither can any other computer (even 13'' latest Macbook Pro) from only a few years ago.

So, if we are going to talk about swindles let's be honest about them. Apple also does them really well.

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post #97 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post

How about the great Apple swindle: selling you computer with 32 GB of RAM for $9000, and then shipping it with 32 bit OS (kernel) that can't use more than 4 GB of it anyway, and the only 64 bit app available to you is chess. Yippie.

And then, they put their marketing department into full gear, and advertise Snow Leopard as yet another "fully" 64 bit OS, when in fact its kernel is also 32 bit (hence 32 bit OS) that's also capable running more of irrelevant 64 bit apps (like mail and calendar), just like Leopard. And if you want 64 bit kernel, you better buy a new computer with that $30 OS update, to get 64 bit kernel, since 2006 Mac Pro (advertised as "64-bit workstation") can't actually run 64 bit kernel. And neither can any other computer (even 13'' latest Macbook Pro) from only a few years ago.

So, if we are going to talk about swindles let's be honest about them. Apple also does them really well.

"You started off badly, then trailed off in the middle, and the less said about the ending the better.

I dont think you got a single thing correct in your posting.
post #98 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

"You started off badly, then trailed off in the middle, and the less said about the ending the better.

Hmm, sounds a lot like my life.
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