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iPod touch price cuts 'may not be enough' given conditions - Page 3

post #81 of 129
oh noes! the price of the ipod touch might drive people to get an iphone instead? i'm sure apple doesn't know what to do about that.
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post #82 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The same way a poster that says FREE infers the phone and service is free.

Those use an asterisk and in small print at the botttom the add clarifies it.
post #83 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by drow View Post

oh noes! the price of the ipod touch might drive people to get an iphone instead? i'm sure apple doesn't know what to do about that.

-or-

People look at the Nano and see that the sam capacity Touch is only $70 more for the 8GB model for all those additional HW and SW features, and it helps grow the App Store.
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post #84 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by drow View Post

oh noes! the price of the ipod touch might drive people to get an iphone instead? i'm sure apple doesn't know what to do about that.

And switch carriers?
No way, no how, no ......
post #85 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

"Everyone else does it." When others advertise phones at half-price, they are certainly not including the service contract. And they're under no obligation to tell you why it's selling to you at a discount from the previous price. In this case and in many other industries, subsidies are used to allow one party (such as a retailer) to sell something at lower cost without hurting that party, while another party absorbs the cost difference in exchange for something else - future dollars via service contract, marketing exposure, etc.

Having said that, I wish Apple would be a leader and rise above what everyone else does even if it costs them a bit (and I say this as an Apple stockholder! Ouch.)

Aren't those always asterisked and clarified at the bottom?
post #86 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

We've gone over this so many times. They aren't specifying one way or the other. They are purposely, and legally, being vague. Do you think it's possible that people are not being made aware of what the "with subscription to AT&T" involves prior to signing the contract? How is this any different when other phones are being advertised as 'free'?

Come here an lobby for change. I would support full financial requirements in advertising.

And again - where's the asterisk?
post #87 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And again - where's the asterisk?

Teckstud - you are a broken record. How old are you?
post #88 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And again - where's the asterisk?

I'm not sure where US companies are required to disclose the info. In print ads they dont' have to have the disclosres on the same page as the ad (see recent AI BestBuy ad article). There is a difference in the way the terms are used. Apple is using "Twice the speed. Half the price." as a marketing slogan, but simply stating a phone is 'free' is not a slogan. We'll need a better class of posters in here to determine how slogans are allowed to work and where info is required to be disclosed, but you still haven't told me how anyone could buy an iPhone and not be made aware of the 24 month contract to AT&T.
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post #89 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

The macro economy is hard right now so people are going to prefer to save $30 up-front but spend $1000 - $2000 more over the course of a 24-month contract? What a tool!

How about a another option? Like maybe getting neither? Or maybe wait for price drop?
post #90 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Advertising is like a first date. It's designed to be misleading. You point out the good aspects, hide the bad ones and hope your comments about "being an entrepreneur" which is reselling stolen software on eBay and your comments about "owning your house" because your on your elderly grandmother's deed which you live with, don't reveal the whole truth.

PS: There is a reason why in a US court of law you swear to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", as opposed to just telling the truth.

There's no use arguing economics with a guy who doesn't know the difference between "cost" and "price" and in fact uses them interchangeably in the same sentence.
post #91 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They tried it a comprise last year with the revenue sharing. It allowed Apple to not sell the iPhone at too huge an initial cost but keep it from using the typical subsidization model.

Oops, I wasn't clear. I just meant that Apple should try not to use advertising slogans that could be deemed as misleading, even if everyone else does.

I agree with you though on your comment. The previous method was much more clear with regard to the value and cost of the phone. Apple just wasn't "powerful" enough to get more carriers to go along.
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post #92 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And again - where's the asterisk?

Right there on the page. www.apple.com/iphone

And at the bottom it says: * Comparisons between iPhone 3G (8GB) and first-generation iPhone (8GB) running on EDGE. Actual speeds vary by site conditions. Requires new two-year AT&T rate plan, sold separately to qualified customers. Visit www.wireless.att.com for eligibility information.

Sold Separately to Qualified Customers
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post #93 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

I agree with you though on your comment. The previous method was much more clear with regard to the value and cost of the phone. Apple just wasn't "powerful" enough to get more carriers to go along.

It's too bad, too, because the subsidization model (as seem on thread, alone) isn't good for the The iPhone is far from perfect or being the best device for everyone, but least Apple was able to push some new energy into the cell phone market. I think the rampant mediocracy that the US market faced was because of the subsidization model instilled by the carriers. They tied the customer to their network and push the HW as being worthless. You don't see that in markets where the customers buy their HW outright.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

The macro economy is hard right now so people are going to prefer to save $30 up-front but spend $1000 - $2000 more over the course of a 24-month contract? What a tool!

You aren't acknowledging that people tend to already pay for a cellphone contract.
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post #94 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by natego1 View Post

AMEN! I was hoping for a REAL price cut. So stupid that the touch costs the same as an iPhone. Less functionality should equal LOWER PRICE!

STILL waiting to replace my 3G iPod with an affordable replacement...

First off, "analyst Maynard Um sounds a little... um... indecisive.

Think of the iphone as a extremely attractive woman with perfect looks everything you like to see and the ipod touch as a very attractive woman but missing one or two features whether its height, breast, bottom etc.

Both women were impressed into dating you due to your great first impression you made with your designed clothing that you rented that night (initial investment).

The perfect woman (iPhone) you have to buy her at least one present a month or else she will break up with you and you lose your laptop that you left at her place (cancellation fee). This woman has a free subscription to a magazine that increase her performance in bed once in a while (free software updates).

The very attractive woman with imperfections (iTouch) requires no gift giving. You can still buy her things that will make her happy (app store...) but she will be totally dedicated to you even if you do not purchase anything. This woman also recently fixed one or two of her imperfections (speaker, volume rocker) and lost a little weight. Occasionally, OPTIONAL new books become available that you can purchase to increase her performance in bed.

Um, I whipped it up sorta quickly, but is this close?
post #95 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Right there on the page. www.apple.com/iphone

And at the bottom it says: * Comparisons between iPhone 3G (8GB) and first-generation iPhone (8GB) running on EDGE. Actual speeds vary by site conditions. Requires new two-year AT&T rate plan, sold separately to qualified customers. Visit www.wireless.att.com for eligibility information.

Sold Separately to Qualified Customers

In what sense is it sold separately? They won't give you a phone unless you sign up for a plan. It may be legal, but it's utter bullshit.
post #96 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

In what sense is it sold separately? They won't give you a phone unless you sign up for a plan. It may be legal, but it's utter bullshit.

A purchase is an agreement between the buyer and seller. If you go into an Apple Store you buy the iPhone from Apple, but you buy the carrier services from AT&T. These are separate purchases. If you go into an AT&T store, I doubt that you'll see the words "sold separately" on any of AT&T's iPhone literature.

edit: Nope. AT&T lists it on its iPhone page for their stores. "Requires new two-year AT&T rate plan, sold separately to qualified customers."
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post #97 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

There's no use arguing economics with a guy who doesn't know the difference between "cost" and "price" and in fact uses them interchangeably in the same sentence.

Since when is explaining advertising "arguing economics", Rodney Dangerfield?
post #98 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Right there on the page. www.apple.com/iphone

And at the bottom it says: * Comparisons between iPhone 3G (8GB) and first-generation iPhone (8GB) running on EDGE. Actual speeds vary by site conditions. Requires new two-year AT&T rate plan, sold separately to qualified customers. Visit www.wireless.att.com for eligibility information.

Sold Separately to Qualified Customers

Ok- it's there now but was not on the main page when it existed nor in print adds nor on TV adds is it spoken in hyper-speed. But that's a start.
post #99 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Ok- it's there now but was not on the main page when it existed nor in print adds nor on TV adds is it spoken in hyper-speed. But that's a start.

It's always been on the iPhone page. Print ads don't require the disclaimers to be made on the same page, it looks like web ads don't either.
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post #100 of 129
Wow! It is truly unbelievable how many people fail to understand mobile phone subsidies provided by the carrier. My god, do you people have functioning gray matter?
post #101 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You aren't acknowledging that people tend to already pay for a cellphone contract.

People may already have a cellphone contract, but purchasing an iPhone requires starting a NEW two-year agreement, and paying off any existing contract (i.e., paying an early termination fee to another carrier, or paying an extra $200 to AT&T if you're not yet eligible for a new iPhone contract).

The fact is, when you enter into any new two-year phone contract, most of the money you pay each month is for the service, but part of it is your "mortgage" on the phone. You pay the $200 down payment on your $400+ phone, and then you continue paying off the rest of the phone's cost (plus interest) each month.

To get out of your contract, you have to pay an early termination fee -- you're basically paying off the rest of the principal on your phone mortgage (no jokes about subprime phone mortgages, please).
post #102 of 129
What were the prices before the price cut? The iPod touch wiki doesn't carry that info, but should.
post #103 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiec View Post

People may already have a cellphone contract, but purchasing an iPhone requires starting a NEW two-year agreement, and paying off any existing contract (i.e., paying an early termination fee to another carrier, or paying an extra $200 to AT&T if you're not yet eligible for a new iPhone contract).

The fact is, when you enter into any new two-year phone contract, most of the money you pay each month is for the service, but part of it is your "mortgage" on the phone. You pay the $200 down payment on your $400+ phone, and then you continue paying off the rest of the phone's cost (plus interest) each month.

To get out of your contract, you have to pay an early termination fee -- you're basically paying off the rest of the principal on your phone mortgage (no jokes about subprime phone mortgages, please).

Thank you. Best post to this thread so far.
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post #104 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Since when is explaining advertising "arguing economics", Rodney Dangerfield?

A: Since you either don't understand the difference between "up-front price" and "total cost of ownership" or think we don't.

B: Since you apparently expect Apple to be the only one advertising TCOS while everyone else quotes prices such as "FREE!!!"

C: Since you did use "price" and "cost" interchangeably in the same sentence.

Thanks for the comparison to my late, lamented hero, though! Hopefully I can get you mad enough to call me George Carlin. That would make my day!
post #105 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiec View Post

People may already have a cellphone contract, but purchasing an iPhone requires starting a NEW two-year agreement, and paying off any existing contract (i.e., paying an early termination fee to another carrier, or paying an extra $200 to AT&T if you're not yet eligible for a new iPhone contract).

The fact is, when you enter into any new two-year phone contract, most of the money you pay each month is for the service, but part of it is your "mortgage" on the phone. You pay the $200 down payment on your $400+ phone, and then you continue paying off the rest of the phone's cost (plus interest) each month.

To get out of your contract, you have to pay an early termination fee -- you're basically paying off the rest of the principal on your phone mortgage (no jokes about subprime phone mortgages, please).

I don't understand your point. People buy new cell phones, they sign up for new contracts. Their contracts expire after x-many months. Why is the iPhone somehow different than other cellphones in this case?

There is a reason why the notoriously secretive Apple announced and demonstrated the iPhone 6 months before its release. Most people in the US seem to go from contract to contract in the US. They often don't get a special rate plan if they buy the phone outright so it makes it little sense to do so.
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post #106 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't understand your point. People buy new cell phones, they sign up for new contracts. Their contracts expire after x-many months. Why is the iPhone somehow different than other cellphones in this case?

It's not. The point is that the iPhone is not cheaper than an iPod touch.
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post #107 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

They 'blew it' compared to what? There isn't any other product which does what the iPod Touch does, and so well, aside from the iPhone (or, arguably, other smart phones). If people want that functionality without a cellular contract, they can get the iPod Touch. It is progressing as surely as the iPhone is and, collectively, they are some of the most revolutionary consumer electronics we've seen in an extremely long time.

I think perspective is important here.

Really? How about the Archos 5 and the Nokia 810n? Look at their specs. They are great models for Apple. In many ways, they do more than the iPod Touch. I think Apple should have an iPod Touch Pro...bigger pixel resolution screen so it can be a true micro computer. Not a one-size-fits-all (screen size like laptop sizes) philosphy for the iPod Touch.
post #108 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

It's not. The point is that the iPhone is not cheaper than an iPod touch.

I don't recall saying it was, and have many posts pointing out the $599/$699 is full retail price of the handset. My original reply was to Denton who commented that the iPhone would cost $1000-$2000 more than the iPod Touch, but failed to point out that people are already paying most of that for their current cellphone plan, as if that wasn't a consideration. Since most iPhone customers are new to smartphones there would be paying a data premium that they were not used to under their basic phone. Again, I'm pointing out that the iPhone's TCO is more expensive than the Touch, even when you subtract the regular calling plan from the equation.
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post #109 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You aren't acknowledging that people tend to already pay for a cellphone contract.

People tend not to pay for data -- fine: $700 more over the course of the two year contract.

Well, you agree with my point anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Again, I'm pointing out that the iPhone's TCO is more expensive than the Touch, even when you subtract the regular calling plan from the equation.
post #110 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gxcad View Post

Think of the iphone as a extremely attractive woman...

Did we need this metaphor?
post #111 of 129
....must ....resist.....

Wu: his concern, however, is that the new touch models are not priced aggressively enough for today's consumers, who may see more value in a $199 subsidized iPhone.

Um....

Um: We continue to think Apple will benefit from further product refreshes, price elasticity and continued ramp of the iPhone.

Wu!!

...no ....can't stop....
post #112 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by parky View Post

Because AT&T pay Apple as well when the iPhone in sold.
It is said that AT&T pay Apple around $300 for each iPhone sold, they are subsidising the cost of the handset to the user, just like many other phone companies.

Apple get $499 for the iPhone and $229 for the iPod - simple.

I didn't mean that. I meant how do they expect people to pay for a more expensive iPod when there are many things you don't get with it that you do with iPhone. Not everyone uses their iPhone as a phone.
post #113 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubert View Post

I didn't mean that. I meant how do they expect people to pay for a more expensive iPod when there are many things you don't get with it that you do with iPhone. Not everyone uses their iPhone as a phone.

Have you not read this thread? Quite a lot of people have pointed out, in quite a few different ways, that the iPod is not more expensive than the iPhone. You know what? They're right, so there is no problem; people are not expected to pay more in order to get less. They pay less and get less. Seems fair enough to me.
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post #114 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

Did we need this metaphor?

Good point. Everyone knows Apple products are like cars.
post #115 of 129
IMO, I don't think Apple "forgot to include cannibalization of the iphone" when they set prices.

The perceived price discrepancy between the touch and the iPhone provides pressure to switch to AT&T for their exclusive hardware. Simple - if "consumer sees more value in $199 iphone", they're still switching to the iphone _platform_, so of course Apple wins.

Does anyone actually think that Apple will sell so many iPhones at $199 that touch's will start overflowing from the warehouse? No - if they do at all, there'll just be enough of a price cut before Christmas to keep the flow moving; they obviously have room in their margins.

Since the touch has no competition _outside_ of Apple, the fact that you can do _almost_ everything iphone on a touch, means that there's an outlet for every potential customer that can't get (or hates) AT&T (or their global analogs).

If the Touch was $100 more, I could maybe see price strat problem, but this really seems like Shawn just needing to say "something".
post #116 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Apostrophes are simple - they are used to indicate either missing letters or possession. Missing letters take precedence. So:

* it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
* Non-possessive plurals don't have apostrophes.

Apostrophes: is the plural of iPod Touch "iPod Touches"? I went with "Touch's" 'cuz "Touches" seemed overly verb-y. Thanks in advance.
post #117 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanky Nibbs View Post

Apostrophes: is the plural of iPod Touch "iPod Touches"? I went with "Touch's" 'cuz "Touches" seemed overly verb-y. Thanks in advance.

The plural of "iPod Touch" is "iPod Touches"; "iPod Touch's" means "belonging to iPod touch" or "iPod Touch is" or "iPod Touch has".

e.g.

"My iPod Touch's case" means "The case belonging to my iPod Touch".
"My iPod Touch's great" means "My iPod Touch is great."
"My iPod Touch's been scratched" means "My iPod Touch has been scratched."
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post #118 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

The plural of "iPod Touch" is "iPod Touches"; "iPod Touch's" means "belonging to iPod touch" or "iPod Touch is" or "iPod Touch has".

Yeah, thanks; I've got most of that. Don't know why apostrophes occasionally look right on acronyms & proper names to me.

Maybe I thought that if I wrote "I'm writing iPod Touches improperly," the profanity filter would flag "Touches improperly." ha. Thanks again! (we now return to topic)
post #119 of 129
When they announced price cuts I was surprised Apple didn't go down to the $199 price point for the touch.
post #120 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

How much is the subsidy and why isn't it posted like any other phone when discounted by any other carrier?

I've never seen carrier list their subsidy. They list the retail price and the subsidized price. They don't tell what the subsidy is. AT&T PR announced the retail price the day after the iPhone 3G was announced, but since you can't buy it unsubsidized (read: without a contract) at this point there is no reason for AT&T to post a retail price that isn't current valid since they aren't yet selling it as such. Check out other carriers where they do sell it at full price and subsidized.
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