or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPod + iTunes + AppleTV › Video industry plans escape from iTunes with 'open' standard
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Video industry plans escape from iTunes with 'open' standard - Page 2

post #41 of 86
The only reason why Apple DRM is proprietory is because the Music industry required Apple to have a DRM in place before they can sell their music in the iTunes Store. Apple was also required to maintain the DRM everytime it got hacked. Apple wasn't about to write and maintain a DRM for all devices. So it was OK with the Music industry for Apple to lock the iTunes Store bought music to the iPod with their DRM, Fairplay.

And now the Music industry is crying foul because the iTunes Store has gotten too big. Even though they require Apple to sell a lot of their music with DRM. So to level the playing field, they're letting Apple's competitors sell their music without DRM. What the Music industry don't get is that the iTunes store is a huge sucess because of the hardware, the iPod. And an iPod owner can just as easily buy DRM free music from Amazon (or anywhere else) and import them into iTunes (and their iPods) as they can music from a store bought CD. Importing from CD's is how most iPod owners get music for their iPods. So releasing DRM free music to Apple competitors doesn't really hurt Apple all that much. As Apple will still be able to maintain their dominance in the MP3 player hardware sector.

What the Music industry wants is a license fee for every iPod sold. Something that MS agreed to when they first came out with their Zune. (Not sure if this is still true.) MS paid the Music industry $1.00 for every Zune sold. And I'm sure MS did this just to show how evil Apple is for allowing their customers to "steal" music and not compenstate the Music industry for it. Plus the fact that they can afford to this without affecting their bottom line. If Apple were to follow suit, it would cost Apple over 10 million dollars a quarter. (Versus MS 1 million dollar a year.)

This is what the movie industry is after. First they want to release their movies with a single DRM. And then they will want every company that puts out a device that can play their movies to pay for a licence in order for their devices to play their DRM movies. This would include computers (or the media playing software for computers.) They will disguise this "movie tax" as a fee to maintain the DRM on all devices. And finally they will just do away with the DRM but keep on charging for the licence. The extra billions of dollars they generate every year from the license fee would compenstate them for any pirating going on. Which is what the industry really wants. They really don't want to spend the effort to stop pirating. They would rather try to find a way to get compensated for it. If it's by taxing the law abiding among us. So be it. Screwing their customers is par for the industry.

The ironic part is that Sony is heading this. Sony was on the other end of this when the movie industry wanted Sony (and other VCR makers) to pay a licence fee for every VCR they sold. But now that Sony is part of the Music and Movie industries, they fight for them instead of against them.
post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post

I saw that too.... totally stupid...

No it's not, they are talking about kiosks in store that you could purchase your movies from.

This is something they are planning to do in several years, not now, it is to delivery 1080p high bitrate video with lossless audio. Something current instructure won't support for a number of years.
post #43 of 86
You gotta be kidding me.. They come up with this concept NOW? After 10 FREAKING YEARS OF FIGHTING DIGITAL DOWNLOADS?? NO WAY! DRM-FREE is the ONLY way to go. Vote with your wallet!
post #44 of 86
Quote:
What the Music industry wants is a license fee for every iPod sold. Something that MS agreed to when they first came out with their Zune. (Not sure if this is still true.) MS paid the Music industry $1.00 for every Zune sold. And I'm sure MS did this just to show how evil Apple is for allowing their customers to "steal" music and not compenstate the Music industry for it. Plus the fact that they can afford to this without affecting their bottom line. If Apple were to follow suit, it would cost Apple over 10 million dollars a quarter. (Versus MS 1 million dollar a year.)

This is what the movie industry is after. First they want to release their movies with a single DRM. And then they will want every company that puts out a device that can play their movies to pay for a licence in order for their devices to play their DRM movies. This would include computers (or the media playing software for computers.) They will disguise this "movie tax" as a fee to maintain the DRM on all devices. And finally they will just do away with the DRM but keep on charging for the licence. The extra billions of dollars they generate every year from the license fee would compenstate them for any pirating going on. Which is what the industry really wants. They really don't want to spend the effort to stop pirating. They would rather try to find a way to get compensated for it. If it's by taxing the law abiding among us. So be it. Screwing their customers is par for the industry.

The ironic part is that Sony is heading this. Sony was on the other end of this when the movie industry wanted Sony (and other VCR makers) to pay a licence fee for every VCR they sold. But now that Sony is part of the Music and Movie industries, they fight for them instead of against them.

Wow, you got some interesting points there :thumbsup:

I wonder if this has something to do with supporting how much money Sony lost cause of PS3. Thanks MSOFT! for screwing up the game console market. I dont mind competitor but when the 360 is released, nobody really need a new console, everybody is happy with the graphics on their current console and will still be happy for a couple of years but nooo, MSoft decided to be 'smart' and sell their 360 early on and now they want to release a 720 in the next or 2 years. Great MSoft! you making the game console world like PC where you screwed up Vista.
Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
Reply
Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
Reply
post #45 of 86
If Apple puts a little more thought into the Apple TV and the pricing structure they could have something as permanent as their iPods.

Suggestions:
- When new podcasts are available, a number marker should appear with the show's icon, similar to the Mail app.
- A separate podcast Favorites screen for podcast episodes, not shows, similar to the one in YouTube.
- Ability to share or suggest Podcasts, Movies, and TV shows with friends, a Send To button.
- Ability to bookmark Podcasts, so you don't have to go back and forth.
- Ability to add multiple Favorites screens, so one can add a Sports Favorites, Documentary Favorites, etc. to Podcasts, Movies, or TV Shows.
- The ability to read and add comments to Movies, TV Shows, and YouTube.
- The ability to add star ratings to TV Shows and Movies.
- TV Show rentals.
- Monthly or annual membership for TV Shows and Movies, similar to NetFlix.
- Ability to burn DVDs so you can share Movies with friends. (They could limit the DVDs to only play 3 times by using serial numbers, but I guess that will only apply to friends who have Apple TVs)
- Ability to browse the internet (Safari), you can type using the iPhone remote.
- A BETTER REMOTE! with a battery life that lasts more than 7 weeks.

The Podcast features should be functional without having to download podcasts. Since ATV Take 2 I haven't found the need to download Podcasts anymore, I just add the shows to my Favorites and watch the latest episodes.

Anywho, I hope Take 3 comes out soon. I like Sony's model but Apple is half way there and unfortunately they seem to be dragging their feet on this and a few other things. I realize that the movie industry has a lot to say when it comes to rentals and memberships, but if Apple gets their device right, like they did with the iPods, the movie titans will be tamed.
bb
Reply
bb
Reply
post #46 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post

How dare you:
-not pay a tax to the movie and music industries when you purchase a consumer electronics device

Already done in some countries in Europe. At least partly: the tax is applied on HD and flash storage (including phones and mp3 players) and goes to the equivalent of the RIAA.

Quote:
not pay a tax to the movie and music industries when you transfer their precious content from one device to another

Again, already done in some way. The tax also applies to optical storage, external HD and the like.

Actually, they did even better : I tip the music industry whenever I burn photos to a DVD, backup them on my external HD, copy source code or PDF books to an USB key...
post #47 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

LOL some of you guys are so funny. I do believe the general idea is companies like Sony, Lionsgate, and microsoft don't want the monopoly (APPLE/iTunes/iPod) the consume the video world. It's one thing to be successful but its another when consumers don't have a choice but to go with apple. That is.... also against the law. It's not strictly inforced when it comes to entertainment but it should be. I am a proud owner of the iphone 3g and I admire apples innovative technology but I am tired of the molopoly. As a member of a band I hate that I make less money on my iTunes sales compared to Hard copy or many other internet media venders and I still pay the same tax on the earnings.

There is no monopoly. There are a plethora of other services selling the same audio and video tracks. Apple just has the inertia and has capitalized well. Monopolies are not illegal..the abuse of them is. Frankly artists have always been raped by the big distributors because there was no other option. Artists should be looking at the proliferation of downloads as key for gaining more autonomy over your product. The studios today aren't looking to do you any favors.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #48 of 86
ahhhh - the solution to DRM is more DRM. nice. Maybe if they stopped turning out crap for movies we' buy more from them
post #49 of 86
I think that what Sony and friends have failed to notice is that Apple succeeded because they were the first to implement well, not because they were the first past the post.

If this does become a truly open standard for DRM and content delivery, then Apple would be able to adopt it and still beat the competition with their ability to offer an easy and quality experience on devices people want to own.

This could be good for Apple as it would teach the media providers that Apple does not have a stranglehold based on monopoly control, but is the preferred channel based on competence. Note that Apple's DRM has been hacked, and all music is available from piracy anyway, but iTunes is still popular.

As long as the rules do not single Apple out for punishment, Apple can compete and win. Bring it on?

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply
post #50 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

I can't wait to download music from the Shell Oil online music store! [last picture]

What's the betting this will be a "Get a free tune when you fill your Tank" offer.

Also if Big Oil is involved it means they can control any government decision making too
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
post #51 of 86
After reading so many opinion sites talking about how AppleTV is a failure, I'm surprised at the general attitude that Apple has succeeded in movie distribution. Personally I do think the AppleTV is a great product, and hope to see it upgraded in several ways.

Has Apple really put together something big enough to strike fear into the movie makers? Or are they just afraid that Apple will do it (like music) if they don't do something now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc OSX View Post

I'd say it was Apple's iTunes software (and it's integration with the hardware) that makes Apple successful, not the ability to have choice over the vendor.

I'm usually someone who wants competition at all tiers. I don't like the iTS->iTunes->iPod link. In theory, you should buy from the best store, use the best music app, and get the best music player.

However, Apple's integrated products & services are able to break existing models. They can accomplish something entirely new - after which the other services follow. And if Apple used the old business models it wouldn't be able to rearrange how we do what we do.

Good to see some response from "all the others" though. The combination of their rights and wrongs, with Apple's rights and wrongs, will keep things progressing nicely.
post #52 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

If Apple puts a little more thought into the Apple TV and the pricing structure they could have something as permanent as their iPods.

Suggestions:
- A BETTER REMOTE! with a battery life that lasts more than 7 weeks.

Just partial quote to pick up on remote.

Eeek ... you only get 7 weeks? I have had mine since day ATV Mk1 came out and still going strong. You have a seriously afflicted remote there I fear.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
post #53 of 86
People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.

Adam Smith
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
Reply
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
Reply
post #54 of 86
Consider the consequences of DRM-free delivery of content by providers.

During the Napster years, the RIAA had government agents kicking in doors, rummaging through personal belongings and dragging housewives and teenagers off to court to face massive fines.

Now the RIAA in their attempt to avoid DRM use watermarking of content. But how do they enforce that? They have government agents at airports demanding our passwords then rummaging through our personal content on our laptops and iPods looking for illegal music.

I think it's fair that content providers should try to protect their content, for which they paid, from being MASS distributed for free. Others may believe it is their right to try to break those rights. But I value my personal freedom much more than my right to break the terms of fair use.

DRM, well-implemented, could allow fair use, an open market, and keep the government out of my private affairs.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply
post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

I think that what Sony and friends have failed to notice is that Apple succeeded because they were the first to implement well, not because they were the first past the post.

If this does become a truly open standard for DRM and content delivery, then Apple would be able to adopt it and still beat the competition with their ability to offer an easy and quality experience on devices people want to own.

This could be good for Apple as it would teach the media providers that Apple does not have a stranglehold based on monopoly control, but is the preferred channel based on competence. Note that Apple's DRM has been hacked, and all music is available from piracy anyway, but iTunes is still popular.

As long as the rules do not single Apple out for punishment, Apple can compete and win. Bring it on?

I agree. Had Sony been the winner in the digital music arena as they were previously with analog they would be quite happy with the status quo. I also suspect any group of companies trying to take on Apple by a collective design, as the saying goes, 'will come up with a camel'.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
post #56 of 86
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the other glaring omissions to this so called powerhouse group; Disney and Amazon.

iTunes does not have a monopoly on media distribution, in fact Amazon is doing fairly well. In fact, if they could improve their user interface and make it more user friendly I think they would give iTunes a run for their money, which is good because competition is always good. Yet, nowhere does it mention Amazon in this deal.

Then there is the 800 pound gorilla known as Disney which there was nary a mention of. Anyone who doubts the viability of any format not including the monster of children's marketing known as Disney should just ask HD-DVD how that works out.

So what this boils down to is a bunch of second and third rate players in the digital media realm trying to court the old guard of media into making them big players, but without the inclusion of the first rate players in this field they are going to be hard pressed to gain much traction.

And of that I am glad, with every dismal failure of theirs we, the consumers, are one step closer to a DRM free future. May it die a painful death, and may the pocketbooks of those who support it wither away to nothing.
post #57 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremedesigner View Post

No thank you. I'll stick with iTunes.

Before iTunes (and after), we as a mac users were locked out, unable to do anything such as: order musics at napster, walmart, microsoft and other music/movies sites (before it was DRM-free). iTunes saved us and it's tightly integrated.

Their ideas = bullock. I know there will be softwares + hardwares incompatibles (like you cannot run software on a last year model, only required this year model.) I doubt it will be any good b/c they will hurry up and all they think is the profit they want and lack of innovation and creativity. Also, I'm not sure if this was SONY powerpoint but I've noticed there aren't any mac or iphones in 2nd slideshow - so I assumed they will lock us out again like it was before iTunes.

hulu.com is a good site BUT close to iTunes for now. iPhone/iTouch is a good device and no other device are close to it.

Good luck Sony and whoever with it.

Ever hear of Amazon? I just ripped my entire iTunes lib and removed the DRM. I have no intentions of purchasing another song from iTunes. It will be DRM free, higher bit rates, and in most cases cheaper from Amazon. If Apple via iTunes sinks, then so be it. My loyalty and money goes to which provides the best bang for the buck. My days of being an Apple zealot are over. Now all I need to do is to figure a way to rip the DRM from my vids and I am free of iTunes for good.
post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

LOL some of you guys are so funny. I do believe the general idea is companies like Sony, Lionsgate, and microsoft don't want the monopoly (APPLE/iTunes/iPod) the consume the video world. It's one thing to be successful but its another when consumers don't have a choice but to go with apple. That is.... also against the law. It's not strictly inforced when it comes to entertainment but it should be. I am a proud owner of the iphone 3g and I admire apples innovative technology but I am tired of the molopoly. As a member of a band I hate that I make less money on my iTunes sales compared to Hard copy or many other internet media venders and I still pay the same tax on the earnings.

Can you explain that last sentence? It sounds like you're saying that many other internet vendors sell your songs giving you a better margin than iTunes (which seems unlikely from what I've previously heard) and that for some reason you would pay the same tax on lower earnings that you would pay on higher earnings, which makes no sense at all.

It's also interesting to note that anti-trust practices are generally illegal because they are disadvantageous to the consumer, but in this case Apple's dominant position is actually beneficial to the consumer, because it keeps prices at a level people are willing to pay. I believe it is also beneficial to media companies and artists, but I realize that is under debate. However, as long as there is one store willing to sell at reasonable prices, and another way for people to get what they want with relative ease, you're going to have a hard time getting to pay more, especially if it's more difficult than paying less or paying nothing.
post #59 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

I think that what Sony and friends have failed to notice is that Apple succeeded because they were the first to implement well, not because they were the first past the post.

If this does become a truly open standard for DRM and content delivery, then Apple would be able to adopt it and still beat the competition with their ability to offer an easy and quality experience on devices people want to own.

This could be good for Apple as it would teach the media providers that Apple does not have a stranglehold based on monopoly control, but is the preferred channel based on competence. Note that Apple's DRM has been hacked, and all music is available from piracy anyway, but iTunes is still popular.

As long as the rules do not single Apple out for punishment, Apple can compete and win. Bring it on?

I think what you and the other Apple fan boys have failed to notice is this is Sony, the dudes that own a movie studio, you know the dudes that make the content. The dudes that are heavily involved in the DVD Association, and the BDA, and want to continue the success that both of these have had
post #60 of 86
Gotta also wonder if part of the goal is to bypass the iTunes/Amazon/BestBuy etc entirely and sell direct.


The main names behind this are either movie houses or device producers aren't they... not many middlemen signed on (there are middlemen mentioned... but not signed on are they?)
post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elliots11 View Post

The problem with old DRM was every company had their own flavor. If these guys can get it right, allow you to play it on your PSP, Computer, Tivo, iPod or iTV or Roku all at the same time in a fair and easy way, then I say freakin go for it.

I can already do this with 720p video files from torrent sites. Hulk, Speed Racer, Iron Man....all the new ones. Burn as data disc and I can play on my PS3. Already plays on all my Mac devices. Nothing will EVER win over free downloads on the net. The only way to stop what they can't stop is to shut down WWW. And they do actually want to do that.
post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The movie giant cites iTunes' prominence as a music store as an example of "the problem:" by allowing proprietary stores to exist, the music industry has effectively left the dominant format in Apple's control.

Except the dominant format is and open standard and not in Apple's control. The problem is the DRM included with it, and Apple has shown that it would be happy to remove it and double the bit rate of the songs if the record companies would let it. Psst, Sony guy. Go talk to the music division instead of yapping your mouth.

This effort is just going to fail hard. No one is going to buy new DVD/BlueRay players, TVs, etc to take advantage of this. Remove the DRM and the problem is solved. It's not like DRM actually does anything to curb piracy.
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Ever hear of Amazon? I just ripped my entire iTunes lib and removed the DRM. I have no intentions of purchasing another song from iTunes. It will be DRM free, higher bit rates, and in most cases cheaper from Amazon. If Apple via iTunes sinks, then so be it. My loyalty and money goes to which provides the best bang for the buck. My days of being an Apple zealot are over. Now all I need to do is to figure a way to rip the DRM from my vids and I am free of iTunes for good.

You just proved the point I want to make --that nobody is locked into buying music from iTunes. You can buy music anywhere and as long as it is non-DRM iTunes would gladly load it on your iPod.

What the studios and recording companies fail to realize is that iTunes/iPod is dominant not because it locks in iPod owners (which it doesn't) but because it offers the content consumer convenience. The 73% of digital player buyers are choosing iPod, despite Fairplay, despite cheaper non-DRM tracks elsewhere, because it's so convenient. By convenience I mean ease of use and ubiquity. Ubiquity means that it's widespread enough that if anyone has a problem with iTunes or an iPod there is always someone out there (a friend, a relative, etc.) easily accessible, who could help fix the problem.

Apple is not getting on this bandwagon, but I bet they know that even if they have no choice but to sign up, their success in video downloads still depends on the convenience of whatever video download system they offer. My guess is as long as they do it through iTunes, they'll gobble up the market like jelly beans. People who are already using iTunes will not be willing to have to deal with a second content and device management app. If I were Jobs, I'd confirm the studios biggest fears by signing up on this neo-PlaysForSure scheme and showing them that it doesn't change a thing, there is nothing they can legally do to stop the iTunes/iPod steamroller.

The thing is, this whole discussion seems to presuppose that if the studios and the device manufacturers just get it right then movie downloads will explode. Wrong! They are both held hostage by the ISPs who have not concealed their intent to find a way to extort money from the movie download business.
post #64 of 86
I wish everyone would leave the Apple fanboyism at the door and look at this objectively.

If online distribution is to be the future of media distribution and kill off physical formats, something akin to what this article describes is how it should be done. The goal is to eliminate what is a essentially a multitude of competing formats, Zune videos, iTunes videos, Unbox videos, PSN videos, etc. and turn digital downloads into something akin to a DVD. You don't have to buy a Sony DVD player to play Sony DVDS but that's essentially what you have to do with digital files.

Sorry, but I don't want to be locked into buying both my software and hardware from one vendor.
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

I can already do this with 720p video files from torrent sites. Hulk, Speed Racer, Iron Man....all the new ones. Burn as data disc and I can play on my PS3. Already plays on all my Mac devices. Nothing will EVER win over free downloads on the net. The only way to stop what they can't stop is to shut down WWW. And they do actually want to do that.

With morons like you proudly proclaiming you piracy habits, can you really blame them?
post #66 of 86
It's too late for them.

1. Apple owns more than 3/4 of the portable media market.

2. They have never gotten it right in the past which is why Apple did it.

3. No one trusts them.
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

I wish everyone would leave the Apple fanboyism at the door and look at this objectively.

Just as much as I wish people would stop simply dismissing everything as "Fanboyism", and not look at the fact that Apple in this case has the best model as far as ease of use and integration with the total user experience. Perhaps I don't care about an open platform simply because I chose the platform that I knew would be the most succesful at the onset. Just like those that bought Blu-Ray players because they made the correct decision at the onset. The movie industry has to get it right in order for it to work. We all saw how successful Hulu has been.....right?
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Sorry, but I don't want to be locked into buying both my software and hardware from one vendor.

Then you must not use a Mac, which would beg to ask why you're posting on an Apple-related site?

People like to rant on and on about having "choices", but what good are choices when the majority of them suck. People have a huge variety of choices when it comes to MP3 players, and some of them don't choose the iPod. The majority that do, do so because they like the integration, ease of use and quality.

The reason this consortium is raising red flags to me is not because I am being a "fanboy", but because of the fact that if something like this were to go through then guess who would be in charge of developing the DRM used? Any guesses?

Microsoft, or possibly even Sony since they seem to love to develop new acquisition formats every time they sneeze. If that happens, and one of them do develop the "new DRM" then you can forget about being able to purchase anything from a Mac. The system requirements will probably force you to use either Windows, or Internet Explorer (basically Windows). This will effectively lock Apple out. Which is what the goal is here.

Before the iPod, there were very few MP3 players that "supported" the Mac. When Apple came out with the iPod not only did Mac users get the best hardware, but we also had the seamless software already. Apple then made the iPod work on Windows too. In fact, Apple's music and video system works very well on Windows - but you can throw that all out the door if these companies have their way.

I am not suggesting blind allegiance to Apple. I like Apple products because of what they enable me to do and no one else has matched those capabilities for me. I like the iTunes store. I don't like the Apple TV because the damn thing crashes nearly every night - so Apple needs to step it up there - but with their other products no one offers the simplicity and integration that Apple's Mac, iPod, iPhone and iTunes have and that's why I have chosen these products.

This DECE group is masquerading as pioneers of "choice" but what they all want from you is your money. That's what Apple wants too, but Apple is smart enough to know that you get that money by offering a really good product, not a half-assed-designed-slapped-together-and-rebranded-piece-of-shit. These companies want the money to come to them without spending anything in R&D and they want to be able to raise prices at a whim without offering anything new to the customer. They're lazy and Apple is not, which is why they all look so bad right now. Apple has taken the market, and each time they try and beat Apple with an "iPod killer" (which ironically always tend to look like iPods), Apple releases a new design and they all stand there looking stupid because they copied last years model.

I doubt these companies will be able to do anything together, because I just don't see the synergy between them. Usually if a group is brought together by mutual animosity then they still are missing the point that it's the quality of the product that sells - not the amount of companies involved in a venture.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post

Then you must not use a Mac, which would beg to ask why you're posting on an Apple-related site?

People like to rant on and on about having "choices", but what good are choices when the majority of them suck. People have a huge variety of choices when it comes to MP3 players, and some of them don't choose the iPod. The majority that do, do so because they like the integration, ease of use and quality.

[...]

Nice post!
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

LOL some of you guys are so funny. I do believe the general idea is companies like Sony, Lionsgate, and microsoft don't want the monopoly (APPLE/iTunes/iPod) the consume the video world. It's one thing to be successful but its another when consumers don't have a choice but to go with apple. That is.... also against the law. It's not strictly inforced when it comes to entertainment but it should be. I am a proud owner of the iphone 3g and I admire apples innovative technology but I am tired of the molopoly. As a member of a band I hate that I make less money on my iTunes sales compared to Hard copy or many other internet media venders and I still pay the same tax on the earnings.

actually, monopolies are not illegal. abuse of your power within a monopoly is.
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

With morons like you proudly proclaiming you piracy habits, can you really blame them?

How is making a blatant statement being a moron you moron? What's a matter Uncle Sam got you hiding under your skirt?

COWARD. You're the last guy I'd depend on when the shit hits the fan. Grab a spine.
post #72 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

I believe something like this will be integral to the downfall of physical media, although I doubt this gang will get it right on the first try. For a system like this to succeed, there would need to be a third party who acts as the keyholder to your media; this keyholder simply keeps a log of all the media you've purchased, from any of the participating digital stores. Having a license for a particular song, tv show, or movie would grant you access to download that media on any of your devices in it's preferred format and DRM encryption; for example, if you bought a movie on your Apple TV, you would have instant access to download the same movie from the Microsoft store for your Zune (presuming both were participants in the keyholder program).

All the user needs is a username and password for their keyholder account, and would log in exactly as you do on the iTunes Music Store, only your account information would be the same for all digital stores. With this system, the media itself is still tied to each individual device in whatever proprietary format and DRM the device creator chooses, but the user has unlimited usage of the media in that it's not tied to any single device. A licensing system can work if all the major players recognize the license.

This PowerPoint presentation is completely hare-brained response to iTunes. The content providers haven't a clue as to how far they've already ceded control to Apple because they've been sitting on their hands while Apple has been building the customer base. The most acceptable way for consumers to use digital content is with an Apple device and it will continue to be for some time. Apple has put the studios and the labels into a well-engineered box.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #73 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDonG4 View Post

Pretty sure these are examples of vending method, not confirmed tied on companies. If so the iTunes logo would be current and not something era of Version 4.

Agree about the vending machine concept, something which has been in the development and testing phase in Blockbuster ("instant" DVDs), but not in a wholly digital form.

What the industry lacks is an agreed upon "container" for this media. Apple has already provided this and consumers agree it is the best option. It's going to be amusing to watch when Apple finally rolls out their own iTunes kiosks and the content providers crash and burn.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #74 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post

Then you must not use a Mac, which would beg to ask why you're posting on an Apple-related site?

Until Apple opens up the iTunes App Store for Macs and makes that the only way to get new software, I'm pretty sure I don't have to buy all of my Mac software from Apple. Not that you care, but I do in fact own an iMac.

Quote:
People like to rant on and on about having "choices", but what good are choices when the majority of them suck. People have a huge variety of choices when it comes to MP3 players, and some of them don't choose the iPod. The majority that do, do so because they like the integration, ease of use and quality.

And as a media playback device, I think the Apple TV sucks. It's extremely limited format support and poor remote turn me off to it. I prefer the added features both my PS3 and TiVo provide. But if Apple were to have majority control over downloaded video content in the future, the AppleTV might be my only option. Sorry, such a future holds no appeal to me.

Quote:
Microsoft, or possibly even Sony since they seem to love to develop new acquisition formats every time they sneeze. If that happens, and one of them do develop the "new DRM" then you can forget about being able to purchase anything from a Mac. The system requirements will probably force you to use either Windows, or Internet Explorer (basically Windows). This will effectively lock Apple out. Which is what the goal is here.

Now we're back into conspiracy theory mode. The movie studios don't want to follow the music studios and let one store have a majority control. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I hated having to go to Wal-Mart to pick up the latest Journey CD. I'd have liked even less if I had to go to Wal-Mart for the CD and then pick up a Wal-Mart brand CD player to play it back. Which is the essence of what the iTunes-iPod-AppleTV ecosystem creates.

Quote:
Before the iPod, there were very few MP3 players that "supported" the Mac. When Apple came out with the iPod not only did Mac users get the best hardware, but we also had the seamless software already. Apple then made the iPod work on Windows too. In fact, Apple's music and video system works very well on Windows - but you can throw that all out the door if these companies have their way.

And now, even if someone wanted to create an mp3 player that supported Macs it would be a pointless venture. Just like very few vendors create internal PCI cards for Macs because Apple has turned into a pointless venture.

This initiative would have no effect on Apple's music and video system so long as Apple decided to embrace it in the iTunes Store.

Quote:
This DECE group is masquerading as pioneers of "choice" but what they all want from you is your money. That's what Apple wants too, but Apple is smart enough to know that you get that money by offering a really good product, not a half-assed-designed-slapped-together-and-rebranded-piece-of-shit. These companies want the money to come to them without spending anything in R&D and they want to be able to raise prices at a whim without offering anything new to the customer. They're lazy and Apple is not, which is why they all look so bad right now. Apple has taken the market, and each time they try and beat Apple with an "iPod killer" (which ironically always tend to look like iPods), Apple releases a new design and they all stand there looking stupid because they copied last years model.

I don't know. From reading the article, it sounds like the companies are willing to invest in creating an infrastructure for a universal download structure that frees it from one vendor having control. A universal download scheme sure sounds like a good thing to me as a consumer since it means I can shop around for both my hardware and software vendor. Maybe I'd end up settling on Apple as the hardware vendor, but I don't want that choice predecided for me. I prefer to have the same choices I have today, buying my software and hardware from whatever vendor I choose.

None of these companies besides Sony has ever tried to create an "iPod killer" and even there that would the electronics side of Sony not the Sony Pictures side. These are movie studios, not hardware vendors. As for them being lazy, I'd say perhaps they've been too busy investing millions to make movies (which would be the primary objective of a movie studio). You're getting hardware vendors and the movie studios confused which hardly makes a convincing argument.
post #75 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post

People like to rant on and on about having "choices", but what good are choices when the majority of them suck.

That is not a good argument. Your opinion may not be shared by someone else. You might consider a device or a certain service to "suck", but someone else may actually find utility in it. Choice is always a good thing, a locked down system masquerading under the guise of "choice" is not. Microsoft loves to play the game of redirecting attention towards hardware choices while making their software Windows-only. The iTunes Store only exists because Microsoft refused to develop a Macintosh version of it's DRM system (PlaysForSure), which it tied to Windows. This left Mac users without ANY choice. Even to this day, all these years later, PlaysForSure and even Zune will not play under OS X. So excuse me if I'm a little leery of anything Microsoft is apart of. Apple, on the other hand, was smart enough to develop a cross-platform DRM system that actually works. It works so well, that a majority of the people still buy iTunes DRM'ed music when there's plenty of services that have DRM free music available.

I will be the first to say DRM sucks! It always will. However, I don't believe the members of this consortium are at all interested in consumer choice, they are more interested in having complete control over content distribution. Personally I think these companies should redirect all their efforts towards getting the content providers to free Apple of it's FairPlay obligations and liabilities, and allow Apple to open up the FairPlay system.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
Reply
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
Reply
post #76 of 86
Quote:
a user could still have access to a "locker"

This whole "ecosystem" thing seems to be a veiled attempt by the content owners to further monetize every possible usage scenario.

By "locker," they mean "cash register," where users go to pay for different levels of usage. Burn to DVD? $5. Transfer to TiVo? $10.

Interoperability at a price.
post #77 of 86
MacWorld 09, it seems that we almost got it right with Take 2 but not good enough so now Apple brings to you Take 3.......
Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
Reply
Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
Reply
post #78 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Until Apple opens up the iTunes App Store for Macs and makes that the only way to get new software, I'm pretty sure I don't have to buy all of my Mac software from Apple. Not that you care, but I do in fact own an iMac.

Wow. Talk about conspiracy theory. First, the App store is only for the iPhone not for all Mac software. Apple has not declared any plans to turn the App store into one repository for all Mac software. Second, the reason they do that for the iPhone is so that they can monetize software distribution (which works equally as well for the developer as it does for Apple) and so they can offer a level of security that is lacking in the Windows mobile world. Apple is not planning that for the Mac and even if they did - buying Adobe CSX would cost the same as buying it directly from Apple because the developer decides the price - not Apple and that goes for the App store too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

And as a media playback device, I think the Apple TV sucks. It's extremely limited format support and poor remote turn me off to it. I prefer the added features both my PS3 and TiVo provide. But if Apple were to have majority control over downloaded video content in the future, the AppleTV might be my only option. Sorry, such a future holds no appeal to me.

I agree with you about the Apple TV as I stated in my previous post. Right now it sucks. As to your complaint about limited formats - that can be said about a lot of other devices - the Roku, Zune, PSP, but with most of those devices (and yes even the Apple TV), there are programmers that create ways to add that functionality on.

As to your concern that the Apple TV becoming your "only option" - that is absurd. There is no way for the Apple TV in it's current state to become the iPod of the video world - not yet at least. The iPod would not have become as popular as it is today if it was released with the quality of the Apple TV. If Apple wants the Apple TV to become it's "4th leg", then they will need to devote some attention to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Now we're back into conspiracy theory mode. The movie studios don't want to follow the music studios and let one store have a majority control. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I hated having to go to Wal-Mart to pick up the latest Journey CD. I'd have liked even less if I had to go to Wal-Mart for the CD and then pick up a Wal-Mart brand CD player to play it back. Which is the essence of what the iTunes-iPod-AppleTV ecosystem creates.

Conspiracies aside, look at the history of the iTunes Store and you'll see why the movie industry doesn't want Apple to "control" distribution. The music labels tried several times to hike download prices up - Apple rejected that. Then they wanted a piracy tax from Apple for each iPod - Apple rejected that. Apple turned all that down because they are selling directly to the end-user who will assuredly blame Apple for the price hike and Apple doesn't want their investment tarnished by fluctuating pricing schemes and confusing rights-management.

It is no secret that the music labels make more per download than by selling songs on physical media. It's nice that they want to give themselves a raise (none of which I would bet would go to the actual artists), but if they want to make more money, then they need to focus on providing more content that people want. The complaint that the music industry has is they don't want the distributor to have a say in pricing. Remember - this is why the music industry is pissed off at Apple.

Your Walmart CD/Walmart CD-Player analogy doesn't really apply here since you can purchase un-DRM'd tracks from iTunes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

And now, even if someone wanted to create an mp3 player that supported Macs it would be a pointless venture. Just like very few vendors create internal PCI cards for Macs because Apple has turned into a pointless venture.

Which is why Apple got into the MP3 player market in the first place. Very few companies support their platform - so unless Apple does, what are they supposed to do watch their platform die? Keep in mind too that Apple doesn't only support the Mac - they make software for Windows as well.

As to your analogy, do you expect Apple to add PCI slots to the iMac and Mac mini so they can keep the PCI industry happy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

This initiative would have no effect on Apple's music and video system so long as Apple decided to embrace it in the iTunes Store.

There is where you're wrong. The whole point of this ecosystem is to take control away from Apple so do you think that they will let Apple be a part of this? This isn't conspiracy either - look at the MP3 music available from the big three music labels - you can buy un-DRM'd tracks from Amazon, Napster and the Zune marketplace - but not iTunes even though Apple has publicly backed (and even instigated) such an initiative. The music labels want to wrangle distribution control from Apple so they can control pricing.

I personally have no problems with Apple's current iTunes structure - not because I'm a "fanboy" who blindly likes anything Apple does - but because it works for me. I have not been inconvenienced by Apple's Fairplay system. It has not interfered with how I use my music, if it did I wouldn't use it. That's not to say that other people might not like it - but they have other choices as well now, so they are not "locked" into buying music only from Apple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

I don't know. From reading the article, it sounds like the companies are willing to invest in creating an infrastructure for a universal download structure that frees it from one vendor having control. A universal download scheme sure sounds like a good thing to me as a consumer since it means I can shop around for both my hardware and software vendor. Maybe I'd end up settling on Apple as the hardware vendor, but I don't want that choice predecided for me. I prefer to have the same choices I have today, buying my software and hardware from whatever vendor I choose.

The whole point of having choices is so you don't have to "settle". Apple has not pre-decided your choice of music player. People and their wallets decide that.

A "universal download scheme" is a subtle way for the big studios to control pricing. They don't care if there are 10,000 vendors out there selling their movies - they want that. But remember - this is about monetization. Who cares if you have 10,000 vendors to buy movies from if they all come from a few big studios. All the studios need to do when they decide they want a raise is hike prices up. If they decide that a download should now cost $20 guess what - the vendors will be forced to raise prices too. That is the control they want to wrangle from Apple.

These studios all talk about "choice" but in the end, we will have no choice but to pay whatever they decide we pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

None of these companies besides Sony has ever tried to create an "iPod killer" and even there that would the electronics side of Sony not the Sony Pictures side. These are movie studios, not hardware vendors. As for them being lazy, I'd say perhaps they've been too busy investing millions to make movies (which would be the primary objective of a movie studio). You're getting hardware vendors and the movie studios confused which hardly makes a convincing argument.

None of those companies besides Sony makes movies. And yes, Sony is both a hardware maker and movie studio negating your argument.
post #79 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

That is not a good argument. Your opinion may not be shared by someone else. You might consider a device or a certain service to "suck", but someone else may actually find utility in it.

Right. Everyones has their own opinion - but how do you gauge the true success of a product? In an open and fair playing field (amongst choices) the people decide what is successful and what is not. The iPod right now is resoundingly more successful than the other choices. That's not to say the iPod is for everybody - because there are other successful players on the market, but the iPod has gained that success because of it's design and UI which some people find lacking in other products.

I am not in any way condemning people who don't choose the iPod because I don't care what other people choose - that's up to them. But a lot of people make the claim that Apple's success is based upon people not having any choice - and that's just not right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Personally I think these companies should redirect all their efforts towards getting the content providers to free Apple of it's FairPlay obligations and liabilities, and allow Apple to open up the FairPlay system.

I don't think this is a good idea. As you stated "DRM sucks" (which some people might find utility in by the way ), so the answer is already there - sell MP3's. The big three music labels have their collections available un-DRM'd from a lot of other stores - just not Apple's.
post #80 of 86
I feel like saying... here we go again.. yahh, can't wait to use their proprietary crappy video player. Have you used NBC's or TNTs player...bugs with going full screen, having the screen saver kick on in the middle of watching it and re-buffering all the time. <slick> I don't know, I can't even stand to use Microsoft's Media Player not because it's Microsoft but because the darn thing buffers and hiccups all through a video not to mention you can't fast forward or rewind without it taking forever to start playing again. Yahh, mmmkkk lemme know how that works out.

Oh, and if they don't let iPod play = FAIL right away.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPod + iTunes + AppleTV
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPod + iTunes + AppleTV › Video industry plans escape from iTunes with 'open' standard