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Karl Marx and the USA - Page 3

post #81 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dollarcollapse™ View Post

One thing you can be sure of.

Right now, before the solution has even been finalized - the Republicans, the speculators and the corrupt financial instututions....

...are planning ways to make profits from this, and leave some poor bastards who already have nothing to pick up the tab.

You can bet your bottom dollar collapse on that one.

Even if the government get's these at "pennies on the dollar" they'll eventually take 1.1 times "pennies on the dollar" and the private sector, whomever they shall be, will make 11.1 times "pennies on the dollar."

Count on that happening.

Definitely count on that happening.

The government screws the pooch, meaning you and me, the average taxpayer.
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post #82 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

What you fail to understand is that the government isn't in this for profit, never has been, and never will be, period, end of discussion.

Also, the fact that these will immediately add to the federal deficit, and the public debt, in the short term at least, that's a known fact, otherwise why raise the debt ceiling to $11.3 trillion.

If the government is going to make money then they should lower the debt ceiling. Right?

Huh? Answer that one for me will you. Huh? Huh?

Savings and loan crisis



Deja vu anyone?

Huh? Have you read the proposal?

Treasurys Financial-Bailout Proposal to Congress


Certainly the government is not doing this for the profit. But they may very well get a profit from it. It remains to be seen if this dicey paper has real value and the treasury has the balls to sell it back for what it's worth. When the treasury reports to congress they can ask how much money's been made or lost.
post #83 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Huh? Have you read the proposal?

Treasurys Financial-Bailout Proposal to Congress


Certainly the government is not doing this for the profit. But they may very well get a profit from it. It remains to be seen if this dicey paper has real value and the treasury has the balls to sell it back for what it's worth. When the treasury reports to congress they can ask how much money's been made or lost.

I sure as heck did.

Especially this part;

Quote:
Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $11,315,000,000,000.
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post #84 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I'm talking about the wall street guys. They didn't kill anyone. Like the terrorists did. You know that whole 9/11 thing and KSM. Or this this Trooffer Forum?

Oops. No. Sorry. I was still waking up.

But I recall a documentary on 9|11 and a stock broker recalled that the Stock Market that day was of course interrupted that day, but he said he and the others kept on trading while watching the towers burn and fall on TV.

Life goes (went) on. \
post #85 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dollarcollapse™ View Post

I suspect the government will actually pay full, or very close to full price for the toxic mortgages and loans - simply because if they dont, then the banks are not in a much better position than when they started.

Which means that it will be atleast 25-30 years before the stuff the government owns is worth what it is today.

It might well be longer than that.

A recession is obvious - but I think a depression is just as likely - and the era of continued economic growth as we have seen in large part since ww2 is over for some time.

At best we can see 5 years of recession followed by about 10 years of zero (average) growth, with the following 10 years of mild 1-2% growth, then a little boom followed by a mild recession.

So thats the next 25 years accounted for. We aint going nowhere.

But you see the deal is that while the banks get paid for the loans, the debtors get nothing. The family with the mortgage is still going to have their house repossessed, bail-out or no bail-out.

That's where this whole thing hurts the most.

The banks, and their investors, get paid. The guy who was cheated by the bank gets nothing. And they've lost everything they were tricked into paying in so far.

This is wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich.
post #86 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

You didn't answer my question.

Also define short term.

You edited your post after I replied. Short term is 3 years, IMHO.
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post #87 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But you see the deal is that while the banks get paid for the loans, the debtors get nothing. The family with the mortgage is still going to have their house repossessed, bail-out or no bail-out.

That's where this whole thing hurts the most.

Well no. Only if they don't make their loan payments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The banks, and their investors, get paid. The guy who was cheated by the bank gets nothing. And they've lost everything they were tricked into paying in so far.

Well no. The banks don't get the full cost of the loans. The loans are worth pennies on the dollar and so the banks will take a loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


This is wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich.

Well no again. The poor don't pay income taxes. Only the middle class and rich do. The top percentages earners pay way more than the rest. So the rich will pay off the increase debt.
post #88 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dollarcollapse View Post

^^^

I wish there was a facility to save posts like that, so that we could come back in 5 years time to laugh so hard we'd cry.

Here it is

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=115

The post number link, upper right, bookmark it. This has been done here before, much to the embarrassment of the poster and hilarity to the rest of us.
post #89 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dollarcollapse™ View Post

This is something I alluded too earlier, and I just noticed Artman posted a piece in another thread saying the same thing.

The bailout absolutely has to pay full-whack or as near as damn-it for these dodgy mortgages or else the banks will not be in any better position than they were before the bail-out.

There is no point spending $700 billion to achieve nothing.

Unless

As I believe, this whole episode has been 'designed' - First as many people as possible have been led down a trap to get tied into buying something they cant afford.

Then the banks go bust - and consolidate as we have been seeing.

Then the bail-out with tax-payers money occurs - but crucially leave the banks crippled (which is what will happen IF the loans are not bought at full price)

The banks eventually go bust.

The Fed buys the lot - with taxpayers money.

Incidently, this money - is not tax payers money at all. It is the Fed's Money which you borrowed off them - therefore your debt.

All that has happened is that the fed has called in the debt - by which, they have converted worthless bits of paper they printed themselves - into real assets and land - and now they own *everything*.

Including your asses.

Exactly how Thomas Jefferson and others told you would happen if you ever created a Federal Reserve.



WAKE UP SHEEP! THIS IS HAPPENING FOR REAL

Well no. It remains to be seen. From what I read the banks want to get the dicey paper off the books. How much they are willing to take to get that dicey paper off the books; It remains to be seen.

Congress can ask "How much did you pay for this dicey paper." So let's not pretend there's not oversight.
post #90 of 113
Scary thought dollarcollapse™. What if we all do drop our remotes, mice and cell phones and rise up from the sofa in a rage and riot.

Makes one wonder what this is all about...

Brigade homeland tours start Oct. 1 (I'm copying and pasting this because it seems the link is getting shuffled around on the site)

Quote:
3rd Infantry’s 1st BCT trains for a new dwell-time mission. Helping ‘people at home’ may become a permanent part of the active Army
By Gina Cavallaro - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Sep 8, 2008 6:15:06 EDT

The 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team has spent 35 of the last 60 months in Iraq patrolling in full battle rattle, helping restore essential services and escorting supply convoys.

Now they’re training for the same mission — with a twist — at home.

Beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months, the 1st BCT will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command, as an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks.


It is not the first time an active-duty unit has been tapped to help at home. In August 2005, for example, when Hurricane Katrina unleashed hell in Mississippi and Louisiana, several active-duty units were pulled from various posts and mobilized to those areas.

But this new mission marks the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to NorthCom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities.

After 1st BCT finishes its dwell-time mission, expectations are that another, as yet unnamed, active-duty brigade will take over and that the mission will be a permanent one.

“Right now, the response force requirement will be an enduring mission. How the [Defense Department] chooses to source that and whether or not they continue to assign them to NorthCom, that could change in the future,” said Army Col. Louis Vogler, chief of NorthCom future operations. “Now, the plan is to assign a force every year.”

The command is at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, Colo., but the soldiers with 1st BCT, who returned in April after 15 months in Iraq, will operate out of their home post at Fort Stewart, Ga., where they’ll be able to go to school, spend time with their families and train for their new homeland mission as well as the counterinsurgency mission in the war zones.

Stop-loss will not be in effect, so soldiers will be able to leave the Army or move to new assignments during the mission, and the operational tempo will be variable.

Don’t look for any extra time off, though. The at-home mission does not take the place of scheduled combat-zone deployments and will take place during the so-called dwell time a unit gets to reset and regenerate after a deployment.

The 1st of the 3rd is still scheduled to deploy to either Iraq or Afghanistan in early 2010, which means the soldiers will have been home a minimum of 20 months by the time they ship out.

In the meantime, they’ll learn new skills, use some of the ones they acquired in the war zone and more than likely will not be shot at while doing any of it.

They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack.

Training for homeland scenarios has already begun at Fort Stewart and includes specialty tasks such as knowing how to use the “jaws of life” to extract a person from a mangled vehicle; extra medical training for a CBRNE incident; and working with U.S. Forestry Service experts on how to go in with chainsaws and cut and clear trees to clear a road or area.

The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.

“It’s a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities that they’re fielding. They’ve been using pieces of it in Iraq, but this is the first time that these modules were consolidated and this package fielded, and because of this mission we’re undertaking we were the first to get it.”

The package includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.


“I was the first guy in the brigade to get Tasered,” said Cloutier, describing the experience as “your worst muscle cramp ever — times 10 throughout your whole body.

“I’m not a small guy, I weigh 230 pounds ... it put me on my knees in seconds.”

The brigade will not change its name, but the force will be known for the next year as a CBRNE Consequence Management Response Force, or CCMRF (pronounced “sea-smurf”).

“I can’t think of a more noble mission than this,” said Cloutier, who took command in July. “We’ve been all over the world during this time of conflict, but now our mission is to take care of citizens at home ... and depending on where an event occurred, you’re going home to take care of your home town, your loved ones.”

While soldiers’ combat training is applicable, he said, some nuances don’t apply.

“If we go in, we’re going in to help American citizens on American soil, to save lives, provide critical life support, help clear debris, restore normalcy and support whatever local agencies need us to do, so it’s kind of a different role,” said Cloutier, who, as the division operations officer on the last rotation, learned of the homeland mission a few months ago while they were still in Iraq.

Some brigade elements will be on call around the clock, during which time they’ll do their regular marksmanship, gunnery and other deployment training. That’s because the unit will continue to train and reset for the next deployment, even as it serves in its CCMRF mission.

Should personnel be needed at an earthquake in California, for example, all or part of the brigade could be scrambled there, depending on the extent of the need and the specialties involved.
Other branches included

The active Army’s new dwell-time mission is part of a NorthCom and DOD response package.

Active-duty soldiers will be part of a force that includes elements from other military branches and dedicated National Guard Weapons of Mass Destruction-Civil Support Teams.

A final mission rehearsal exercise is scheduled for mid-September at Fort Stewart and will be run by Joint Task Force Civil Support, a unit based out of Fort Monroe, Va., that will coordinate and evaluate the interservice event.

In addition to 1st BCT, other Army units will take part in the two-week training exercise, including elements of the 1st Medical Brigade out of Fort Hood, Texas, and the 82nd Combat Aviation Brigade from Fort Bragg, N.C.

There also will be Air Force engineer and medical units, the Marine Corps Chemical, Biological Initial Reaction Force, a Navy weather team and members of the Defense Logistics Agency and the Defense Threat Reduction Agency.

One of the things Vogler said they’ll be looking at is communications capabilities between the services.

“It is a concern, and we’re trying to check that and one of the ways we do that is by having these sorts of exercises. Leading up to this, we are going to rehearse and set up some of the communications systems to make sure we have interoperability,” he said.

“I don’t know what America’s overall plan is — I just know that 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there are soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines that are standing by to come and help if they’re called,” Cloutier said. “It makes me feel good as an American to know that my country has dedicated a force to come in and help the people at home.”

Not sure whether to get my tinfoil hat ready or not.
post #91 of 113
More and more I start to realize the real doctrine being used in Washington DC, the Shock Doctrine*.

It's not even October yet. So we ain't seen nothin' yet.

*The Shock Doctrine | Naomi Klein
post #92 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

You edited your post after I replied. Short term is 3 years, IMHO.

That would be my guess also.

But here's the problem;

Q: When was the last fiscal year that the total federal public debt actually decreased?

A: FY1969 when the total federal public debt decreased by a whopping 0.79%.

Q: Prior to FY1969, when was the last fiscal year that the total federal public debt actually decreased?

A: FY1957 when the total federal public debt decreased by a whopping 0.16%.

Q: Are there any other fiscal years, since 1940, when the total federal public debt decreased?

A: Yes, FY1956 (0.61%), FY1951 (0.61%), FY1948 (1.99%), and FY1947 (5.11%).

So basically, you need to go back 60 years to find a time when the total federal public debt decreased significantly (say 1% or greater).

The same can be said about the statutory limits on federal debt, which has never gone down significantly since 1940, and when it did go down it was a small short lived decrease.

There is nothing in the historical fiscal record, going back 68 years, that would suggest that things will be different this time, with respect to either the statutory limits on federal debt or the total federal public debt.

Nothing.

The debt ceiling and public debt will continue to increase for the foreseeable future, there is nothing that would suggest otherwise.

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post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Well no again. The poor don't pay income taxes. Only the middle class and rich do. The top percentages earners pay way more than the rest. So the rich will pay off the increase debt.

Wrong, no one will pay down the public debt incurred in this fiasco.

The public debt will only increase, and increase significantly.

The historical federal fiscal record speaks for itself.

Saying something doesn't make it so.

.
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post #94 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

More and more I start to realize the real doctrine being used in Washington DC, the Shock Doctrine*.

It's not even October yet. So we ain't seen nothin' yet.

*The Shock Doctrine | Naomi Klein

[CENTER][/CENTER]

[LEFT]
Quote:
A citizen prod, also called a citizen shocker, is a handheld device commonly used to make people or other livestock move by striking or poking them, or in the case of a Hot-Shot-type prod, through a relatively high voltage, high current electric shock.

[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Next up, Citizen Camps aka Hoovervilles, when you have no place left to go;[/LEFT]


[CENTER][/CENTER]


Quote:
During the presidential campaign of 2008, a circular published by the Republican Party claimed that if John McCain won there would be "a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage."
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post #95 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Wrong, no one will pay down the public debt incurred in this fiasco.

The public debt will only increase, and increase significantly.

The historical federal fiscal record speaks for itself.

Saying something doesn't make it so.

.



Well no. It remains to be seen if treasury can sell back these dicey papers for more than they bough them. Those proceeds would pay off the increased debt.
post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Well no. It remains to be seen if treasury can sell back these dicey papers for more than they bough them. Those proceeds would pay off the increased debt.

The federal government totally lacks any proven track record in that regard.

The. Federal. Government. Totally. Lacks. Any. Proven. Track. Record. In. That. Regard.

The S&L bailout just reinforces the fact that the total federal public debt will only continue to increase, astronomically even.

I don't believe or have faith in doG, much less our federal government, with it's proven track record of continuously increasing federal debt over the past 40 consecutive years.

D'oh!
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post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The federal government totally lacks any proven track record in that regard.

The. Federal. Government. Totally. Lacks. Any. Proven. Track. Record. In. That. Regard.

The S&L bailout just reinforces the fact that the total federal public debt will only continue to increase, astronomically even.

I don't believe or have faith in doG, much less our federal government, with it's proven track record of continuously increasing federal debt over the past 40 consecutive years.

D'oh!

Well no. At the very least when the fed bailed out chrysler it make $400 million on the deal.
post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Well no. At the very least when the fed bailed out chrysler it made $400 million on the deal.

Unsubstantiated claim.

{Ad hom removed}

This needs an actual factual link to a government website, not some undoubtedly op-ed piece in a rag such as the Wall Street Urinal, or some such.

And if true, $400 million over what period of time, five years, ten years, or more?

Quote:
The Chrysler Corporation on September 7, 1979 petitioned the United States government for US$1.5 billion in loan guarantees to avoid bankruptcy.

Hmm, circa FY1980, total federal public debt at the time? $909.041 billion

$400 million / $909.041 billion = 0.044%

You just proved my point for me, thank you very much.

0.044% * $11.315 trillion = $5 billion

In other words, pocket change for the federal government.

Do you have any other killers such as this one?
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post #99 of 113
Detroit wants its bailout too

Quote:
GM, Chrysler, and Ford want at least $25 billion in guaranteed loans; critics want to know where the money is going.

In the Public Interest: Statement on Auto Industry Bailouts

Quote:
The Big Three are in big trouble, and they have themselves to thank for it.

Ford and General Motors have reported substantial losses in the second quarter amounting to $15.5 billion, and $8.7 billion, respectively, while Chrysler, which was bought off last year by a private equity firm, Cerberus, refuses to reveal its financial standing.
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post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Unsubstantiated claim.

{Ad hom removed}

This needs an actual factual link to a government website, not some undoubtedly op-ed piece in a rag such as the Wall Street Urinal, or some such.

And if true, $400 million over what period of time, five years, ten years, or more?



Hmm, circa FY1980, total federal public debt at the time? $909.041 billion

$400 million / $909.041 billion = 0.044%

You just proved my point for me, thank you very much.

0.044% * $11.315 trillion = $5 billion

In other words, pocket change for the federal government.

Do you have any other killers such as this one?

So you admit that you were wrong? The fed got their money back plus $400M. Not a bad return on 1500B in loan guarantees. Rather than say there is "no track record" you now know there is at least one example where a bailout paid off in the black.
post #101 of 113
I would like to be bailed out.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #102 of 113
This thread stinks of irrational fear - I can't believe some of the things I am reading here, very little brain engagement as far as I can see (is it an ad-hom when I am insulting everyone?). I'm out.
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post #103 of 113
I can think of several groups of people who will have profited from the sub-prime disaster:

1. Property owners who got out of the market after selling for obscene prices

2. Developers, who built houses and sold them for outrageous amounts of money

3. Mortgage brokers, who sold the mortgage for commission and passed on the risk

4. Those who held the riskiest of mortgages, and received obscene interest rates until the money ran out

5. Bank employees, who received obscene bonuses until the money ran out

So, which one is you e1618978?
post #104 of 113
I think it is very important that we give $700b to the people who fucked the American and European banking system up. I mean, I just can't think of any other way to get the banks lending money to one another again.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #105 of 113
You know, the last time someone pushed through legislation after a "disaster" we got the Patriot Act. I wonder how long this bill's been sitting around waiting for the right moment.
post #106 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

You know, the last time someone pushed through legislation after a "disaster" we got the Patriot Act. I wonder how long this bill's been sitting around waiting for the right moment.

I would be surprised if it had, since it's pretty specific, as I understand it. If the banks aren't lending to one another because everything's an unknown quantity, the gummit buying up the bad loans a X on the dollar means that the bank can now value things and begin lending money.

BUT.

This is a blank check to the people who fucked all this up, and unless I'm missing something, basically comes with no strings attached, totally blows moral hazard out of the water, and contains no penalty. And on top of that, it's being rammed through as a kind of "OMGWTFBBQ!! WE HAVE TO FIX THE EKONOME RIGHT NOW OR THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!" when that's simply not the case.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #107 of 113
Some lawmen in DC is reading it this way...

Yes, There Are Deeply Angry Democratic Members of Congress

Quote:
This email is from a lawmaker and it should give you a flavor for what's going on right now in Congress.

Quote:
Paulsen and congressional Republicans, or the few that will actually vote for this (most will be unwilling to take responsibility for the consequences of their policies), have said that there can't be any "add ons," or addition provisions. Fuck that. I don't really want to trigger a world wide depression (that's not hyperbole, that's a distinct possibility), but I'm not voting for a blank check for $700 billion for those mother fuckers.

Nancy said she wanted to include the second "stimulus" package that the Bush Administration and congressional Republicans have blocked. I don't want to trade a $700 billion dollar giveaway to the most unsympathetic human beings on the planet for a few fucking bridges. I want reforms of the industry, and I want it to be as punitive as possible.

Henry Waxman has suggested corporate government reforms, including CEO compensation, as the price for this. Some members have publicly suggested allowing modification of mortgages in bankruptcy, and the House Judiciary Committee staff is also very interested in that. That's a real possibility.

We may strip out all the gives to industry in the predatory mortgage lending bill that the House passed last November, which hasn't budged in the Senate, and include that in the bill. There are other ideas on the table but they are going to be tough to work out before next week.

I also find myself drawn to provisions that would serve no useful purpose except to insult the industry, like requiring the CEOs, CFOs and the chair of the board of any entity that sells mortgage related securities to the Treasury Department to certify that they have completed an approved course in credit counseling. That is now required of consumers filing bankruptcy to make sure they feel properly humiliated for being head over heels in debt, although most lost control of their finances because of a serious illness in the family. That would just be petty and childish, and completely in character for me.

I'm open to other ideas, and I am looking for volunteers who want to hold the sons of bitches so I can beat the crap out of them.

I like the way this guy thinks. It should absolutely be done.

Some compulsory tests for the big honchos to prove they are capable of providing the services they turn out not to be able to pay for. Let them appreciate what it's like when you're trying to put food on the table while the bank fucks you over with obscene fees and fraudulent practices.

Let them feel that it's not so nice when it happens to you.

There must be real panic if they have Paulson doing the rounds of the talking heads to sell this idea to the public. In order to save the tax payer we have to ruin the tax payer. Sure, wonderful. Thanks a lot Hank, we'll send you a turkey for Thanksgiving.
post #108 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I can think of several groups of people who will have profited from the sub-prime disaster:

1. Property owners who got out of the market after selling for obscene prices

Maybe. Who were those people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

2. Developers, who built houses and sold them for outrageous amounts of money

Kinda agree. The housing market is a free one. If you don't like the price you can rent. It's not a crime to sell something for a price that someone is willing to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

3. Mortgage brokers, who sold the mortgage for commission and passed on the risk

We agree!!! Lenders should hold on to the risk they take. When the sell that risk the buyer should know what it is and not look for a bailout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

4. Those who held the riskiest of mortgages, and received obscene interest rates until the money ran out

That doesn't compute or me. Even if the interest is high the loan is still not payed off when "the money runs out". That's why it's a crisis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

5. Bank employees, who received obscene bonuses until the money ran out

So, which one is you e1618978?

Chump change. Let the billionaires that took the risk take the loss, i say.
post #109 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

So you admit that you were wrong? The fed got their money back plus $400M. Not a bad return on $1.5 billion in loan guarantees. Rather than say there is "no track record" you now know there is at least one example where a bailout paid off in the black.

Substantiate this unsubstantiated claim. The $400 million part, also what amounts were loaned out and at what prevailing rate(s) at that time.

Corrected $1500B to it's correct value of $1.5 billion, a misplacing of the decimal point by three orders of magnitude or O(1000).

That bailout did not involve increasing the federal statutory debt limit to the tune of $1.5 trillion.

In fact the federal statutory debt limit was not raised $0.01 in the case you mention.

Remember, I'm talking exclusively about the public debt here, as I've been doing throughout my posts.

Hmm, I wonder if the CPI (aka inflation) has increased 99,000% ($1.5 trillion/$1.5 billion as a percentage point increase) since the the Chrysler bailout?

No! In fact, inflation has risen in those ~28 years only ~145% not 99,000%, so your one example, is quite frankly, an one apples to 683 oranges comparison.
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post #110 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I would be surprised if it had, since it's pretty specific, as I understand it. If the banks aren't lending to one another because everything's an unknown quantity, the gummit buying up the bad loans a X on the dollar means that the bank can now value things and begin lending money.

BUT.

This is a blank check to the people who fucked all this up, and unless I'm missing something, basically comes with no strings attached, totally blows moral hazard out of the water, and contains no penalty. And on top of that, it's being rammed through as a kind of "OMGWTFBBQ!! WE HAVE TO FIX THE EKONOME RIGHT NOW OR THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!" when that's simply not the case.

Exactly.

Some people truly have their you know what shoved up their you know what.

The warmongers (err, I meant fear-mongers) are out in full force again!

I'm trying to remember an era when conservatives have been so nonconservative. I can't for the life of me though.

Heck, the conservatives are starting to sound just like Marxists, Leninists, and Stalinists, and all at the same time even.
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post #111 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

So, which one is you e1618978?

None of them, my house is still on the market unsold, I'm not a bank employee, developer, mortgage broker, or investor in mortgage backed assets (that I know of). I have a pretty big vested interest in not having the economic system collapse, however, just as everyone does.
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post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

None of them, my house is still on the market unsold, I'm not a bank employee, developer, mortgage broker, or investor in mortgage backed assets (that I know of). I have a pretty big vested interest in not having the economic system collapse, however, just as everyone does.

Thanks for the reply. We all have that vested interest.

Clinton thought he could prevent/solve it.

Bush thought he could prevent/solve it.

Whether Obama or McCain have an idea, let me know. This economic system collapse seems to have decades of government/corporate fingerprints on it.

McCain hasn't even read the 3 page proposal.

The document was probably on a computer. \
post #113 of 113
OK - call me a flip flopper, but I am starting to have second thoughts about this bailout. If we end up with a transparent market for these securities, where true price discovery takes place, then the government will make a ton of money and we will have a lot of bankruptcies, but I think that mergers and such will keep capital flowing.

But the more I read about this, the more I suspect that this reverse auction will be a sham, and the government will end up paying higher than market rates. I would rather have the stock market crash, and a mini-depression, than reward risk taking behavior like that.

Also, the $25 billion auto industry bail out makes me sick - the only way to kill the unions is to let the big three die, but if the government keeps bailing them out the unions will never kill their host.

And the head of the SEC should be fired:

http://securities.stanford.edu/news-..._Drawbaugh.htm
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