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Next-gen MacBook, MacBook Pro spotted in matching outfits - Page 2

post #41 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

I really hope they go for a dock concept soon. All of the little dongles drive me crazy. The only ports that go unused on my laptop today are Firewire and the headphone/mic jacks. A port replicator would be the only way I could make the computer work for me....

I don't know why people always go on about a docking station for Mac laptops. does anyone outside of IBM *ever* use a docking station?

In my experience it's a concept that has it's roots in the 1990's and has now virtually died out. I work at a major University and get to see hundreds of computer set-ups in hundreds of offices over the last 20 years or so. I have rarely seen anyone use a docking station and it was always some died-in-the-wool conservative using a ThinkPad and MS Windows when I did see one.

I have also never had a Mac user, *ever* turn to me when consulting about their computer needs and say that they wished they had a docking port or a docking station. Unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are talking about, I just don't see how any appreciable group of Mac users actually want this.

As for the DVi port, if you plug it into your monitor, then use the dongle that comes with the machine, big deal. The other major use of the port, presentations, are almost always hooking up to a projector that typically only offers VGA anyway, so dongles are already essential for that as it is.
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post #42 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

If they remove the current FW400 port, that must mean that they are going to change the design of the current Cinema Displays as well...

In the words of Slip Mahoney "leave us not forget that Apple has said all displays will be LED lit by the end of 2009, and youse gotta start someplace"
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post #43 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:34am
Also, next Tuesday, 9/30, is the Jewish New Year and many people are off work both the 30th and the 1st. The following week contains another religious holiday. So, my guess is that the 14th is acurate as it gets past the religious holidays and allows ample time for the channel to fill....imho
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post #44 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by offshore View Post

And surely the new entry level Macbook won't still ship with just a combo drive?

Sticking with a combo drive is just barmy and reflects badly on Apple...even if it is the entry level product.

Get with the times Apple.

A combo drive is cheap, which keeps the bottom of the line machine cheap.
That's how Apple could (HOPEFULLY) get get back to the $999 price point with the new bottom-of-the-line MacBook.

Remember that aside from the clearly superior Mac OS X, Apple builds a lot more stuff into their machines than the generic box-stuffers. FireWire, Airport, Bluetooth, remote control, dual-monitor support. None of it is free.


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post #45 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

A combo drive is cheap, which keeps the bottom of the line machine cheap.
That's how Apple could (HOPEFULLY) get get back to the $999 price point with the new bottom-of-the-line MacBook.

Remember that aside from the clearly superior Mac OS X, Apple builds a lot more stuff into their machines than the generic box-stuffers. FireWire, Airport, Bluetooth, remote control, dual-monitor support. None of it is free.

There are some on these forums (read: Lemon Bon Bon & Cory Bauer) that will try to convince you that Apple's notebooks are overpriced by comparing one element without looking at the whole machine, but the Combo Drive does look pretty antiquated. Surely a 9.5mm slot-loading drive costs more than a clunky 25mm tray-loading alternative, but the price difference between DVD burning and only reading DVDs isn't very much. I'd say that they offer these for education, but of that is the case I don't think they should be in the consumer lineup as the default option for the $1099 model. They have also stopped shipping the remote control with each mac, which is fine by me as I have too many anyways and have only ever used it with the AppleTV.

Other OEMs may not come with BT or 802.11n, or DVI, like you said, but it's hard to sell that as an added value to someone who can only see the simplest of specs because that is all they understand.
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post #46 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:54am
Mini-DVI doesn't support high-res displays so it would be a bad move but then again, I don't see that many people would need to drive higher than 1920x1200 resolution. People who complain about this stuff likely don't even own a display that goes that high. It's usually more about spec than practicality.

If any of these measures are cost-cutting measures then I say bring them on.

Displayport would be great and a solution to the issue but I can't see Apple jumping this quickly onto a technology with so little support right now.

The firewire 800 decision makes sense. It's not taking off because people just stick with FW400. If they are forced to go to extra lengths to use FW400 devices, it encourages people to transition to FW800.

I'm concerned about a few things though. The design description for one - the black look really isn't a nice look. The change to the display output suggests to me that there will be some common ground in graphics cards between MB and MBP (I think they will just be called MB from now on) and I just hope that the low end goes up rather than the high end coming down.
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post #47 of 163
9/25/08 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

A combo drive is cheap, which keeps the bottom of the line machine cheap.
That's how Apple could (HOPEFULLY) get get back to the $999 price point with the new bottom-of-the-line MacBook.

Remember that aside from the clearly superior Mac OS X, Apple builds a lot more stuff into their machines than the generic box-stuffers. FireWire, Airport, Bluetooth, remote control, dual-monitor support. None of it is free.

The combo drive is not cheap. They're manufactured in such low volume now that they cost *more* than DVD burners. Apple uses them purely to create a distinction between products.

And I've got news for you... that "lot more stuff" is in almost every laptop over $600.
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post #48 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

And I've got news for you... that "lot more stuff" is in almost every laptop over $600.

Not from my experience. You don't usually find 802.11n or Gigabit Ethernet. BT is often not there, and if IEEE-1394(FireWire400) is there it won't power over the port. Then you have the issue with using the older CPU. chipset, and RAM, most of which was never top-end even when it was new.
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post #49 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:13am
So Apple is a smart company (obviously) - what's to keep them from making a docking station that you slide into on 1 side that hooks up to your DVI and FW 800 port? Isn't that enough to communicate between the station and MBP? It could power the laptop via FW as well as have externals hooked up through that interface and it wouldn't take away from the aesthetics of the laptop for those that don't want it.

I'm sure there's some caveat I'm missing but doesn't this seem like a fairly simple solution? (Admittedly it's probably much too simple...)
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post #50 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I don't know why people always go on about a docking station for Mac laptops. does anyone outside of IBM *ever* use a docking station?

Can you say Powerbook Duo?
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post #51 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:21am
What about MAC PROS?!! Does Apple still even make them??!
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post #52 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:25am
If they've dropped FW400, then they are going to FW3200.
It would be insane to do otherwise. Introducing FW3200 next year would cause a riot.

And regarding the DVI port, it would seem they are moving to whatever new standard they have chosen, and the new Cinema Displays will be offered to match. If you don't like adapters, Jobs expects you to buy a new machine and display.
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post #53 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

So Apple is a smart company (obviously) - what's to keep them from making a docking station? (Admittedly it's probably much too simple...)

Here's a docking station:
http://www.bookendzdocks.com/Docking...cBook_Pro.html

I had two different ones.
One for a Titanium PowerBook, with ports in the back.
One for an aluminum PowerBook with the side ports.

It was really quite a nice solution for my home office. It worked pretty well, but the side-ported one took up quite a bit of space!

Apple certainly could produce a dockable MacBook Pro with a docking station. But, It's really a niche product. The amount of R&D and other money and time spent on producinng and marketing such a thing, recoup and profit from the investment just isn't worth it. Why do you think that the PowerDook Duo was the LAST officially dockable Mac?

Apple tends to leave such products with limited appeal to third-party developers.


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post #54 of 163
9/25/08 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

The combo drive is not cheap. They're manufactured in such low volume now that they cost *more* than DVD burners. Apple uses them purely to create a distinction between products.

Yup.

If Apple put a SuperDrive in the base config. then nobody would buy the middle of the range machine.
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post #55 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I don't know why people always go on about a docking station for Mac laptops. does anyone outside of IBM *ever* use a docking station?

In my experience it's a concept that has it's roots in the 1990's and has now virtually died out. I work at a major University and get to see hundreds of computer set-ups in hundreds of offices over the last 20 years or so. I have rarely seen anyone use a docking station and it was always some died-in-the-wool conservative using a ThinkPad and MS Windows when I did see one.

I have also never had a Mac user, *ever* turn to me when consulting about their computer needs and say that they wished they had a docking port or a docking station. Unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are talking about, I just don't see how any appreciable group of Mac users actually want this.

And who outside of Apple uses a "MAC"? Mac users complain about software developers who use the "only 10 percent market share" argument for not making Mac versions of their applications. They complain about web site owners who use the "Macs are niche market" argument for not making their web sites compatible with Safari. It's ironic how these same Mac users now use the same "low market share" argument to dismiss ideas for improving Macs.
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post #56 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:25pm
If you look back, the FW1600 spec was finalized and it took about 3 years for a company to sample a chip that supported FW1600.

Google search turned up nobody for FW3200 chips, and given that the spec was only recently finalized a short time ago, and that the rest of the world is looking at eSATA for higher-end drives, and USB 3.0 for general usage, how is Apple going to drive adoption for FW3200? USB 3 is more than fast enough to transfer HD video from camera's, and volume production will keep prices for everything related to USB 3 significantly cheaper than even FW800, let alone FW3200.
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post #57 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

Here's a docking station:
http://www.bookendzdocks.com/Docking...cBook_Pro.html

Those "docking stations" are a hack. Since those Mac laptops do not have a standard docking connector, each laptop model requires a different Bookendz product. They couldn't make a single docking station that works with different Mac laptops. The Bookendz for MacBook and MacBook Pro can't provide power and charging because third parties are not able to make Magsafe compatible products.

The iPhone and iPod only have 2 connectors, yet Apple makes a dock for those. If Apple can justify a docking connector for iPhones and iPods, they can certainly justify making a docking connector and a dock for laptops that have nearly a dozen connectors.
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post #58 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post

If you look back, the FW1600 spec was finalized and it took about 3 years for a company to sample a chip that supported FW1600.

Google search turned up nobody for FW3200 chips, and given that the spec was only recently finalized a short time ago, and that the rest of the world is looking at eSATA for higher-end drives, and USB 3.0 for general usage, how is Apple going to drive adoption for FW3200? USB 3 is more than fast enough to transfer HD video from camera's, and volume production will keep prices for everything related to USB 3 significantly cheaper than even FW800, let alone FW3200.

FireWire uses it's own controller, USB uses the CPU. USB's actual speed will almost NEVER match the specs. FireWire is simply more efficient for use with mass storage devices. I'm not sure of all the actual nuts and bolts, but it's easy to find the info elsewhere.

As Mac market share increases, FireWire's "legitimacy" will increase in the eyes of the masses. It's already a standard on high-end video and photographic equipment. We in the Mac universe already know FireWire's superiority through 10 years actual use.

There's room for FireWire, eSATA and USB (for input and low throughput devices).


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post #59 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

The iPhone and iPod only have 2 connectors, yet Apple makes a dock for those. If Apple can justify a docking connector for iPhones and iPods, they can certainly justify making a docking connector and a dock for laptops that have nearly a dozen connectors.

I don't see the correlation. iDevices cannot stand up by themselves so there Apple and 3rd-party solutions for docks integrated with other functions, which is something that most people don't need with a laptop. The dock tray that supply with each iDevice is just a cheap plastic mold that doesn't detract from the aesthetics, structure, design or manufacturing of the device in any way.
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post #60 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Displayport would be great and a solution to the issue but I can't see Apple jumping this quickly onto a technology with so little support right now.

Besides, the ADC connector worked so well for Apple and got such great support.
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post #61 of 163
9/25/08 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Besides, the ADC connector worked so well for Apple and got such great support.

ADC was proprietary, DisplayPort is standards-based, backwards compatible* with DVI/HDMI video signals, supports HDCP and is already being used by other PC manufacturers.


* That means it already has support and is more future-proof, to boot.
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post #62 of 163
9/25/08 at 1:16pm
Does a DisplayPort connector look anything like a mini-DVI connector? Might someone mistake one for the other?
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post #63 of 163
9/25/08 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompy View Post

Huh? Maybe you think I'm talking about an iPod dock connector? To be clear, I'm asking why Apple hasn't added a connector to dock the laptop. Monitors, periphrials, wired ethernet, etc.

I agree a Docking station would do the MacBook Pros a favor.
Apple did an outstanding job with their classical Duo-Dock, if they would bring that concept to today's market we would probably see two PCI slots in the station, space for memory expansion, space for a 3.5" HD, and even a BluRay drive for a case to total obsession on thinness like MB Air.

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post #64 of 163
9/25/08 at 1:20pm
Hello everyone first post

So let me get this straight if the rumours are correct and i get a new macbook pro it wont work with my apple cinema display?

I've only had a it a few months.

I have been waiting for a new pro for ages.

Could i not just use a Mini-DVI to DVI adaptor?
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post #65 of 163
9/25/08 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Does a DisplayPort connector look anything like a mini-DVI connector? Might someone mistake one for the other?

No, but it does look an awful lot like the Micro-DVI port used on the MBA.

(Mini-DVI, Micro-DVI, DVI, VGA, DisplayPort) As you can see DisplayPort and Micro-DVI used in the MBA look very similar and it is incorrectly labeled as such in photo I found.

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post #66 of 163
9/25/08 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

13" MacBook - 2.40 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 160GB HD, WUSB
15" MacBook - 2.53 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 160GB HD, WUSB
17" MacBook - 2.53 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 200GB HD, WUSB

13" MacBook Pro - 2.40 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 200GB HD, NVIDIA 256, WUSB
15" MacBook Pro - 2.53 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 200GB HD, NVIDIA 512, WUSB
17" MacBook Pro - 2.80 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 250GB HD, NVIDIA 512, WUSB

My best guess.

Apple would never sell a Pro unit with the same processor as a non-Pro one. There must be more than discrete video differentiating the Pro models. If Apple does unify the lineup then I think it'll look more like this:

13" MacBook - 2.2 GHz, 1Gb RAM, 120GB HD, Intel x4500 graphics
13" MacBook - 2.4 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 200GB HD, Intel x4500 graphics
15" MacBook - 2.4 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 200GB HD, Intel x4500 graphics

13" MacBook Pro - 2.6 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 250GB HD, NVIDIA 9600 512
15" MacBook Pro - 2.6 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 250GB HD, NVIDIA 9600 512
17" MacBook Pro - 2.8 Ghz, 2Gb RAM, 250GB HD, NVIDIA 9600 512

I really hope they finally stop shipping combo drives as a way of crippling their entry level machine.
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post #67 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:00pm
A Guess:

There will be a docking station for macbooks. It will be a brick. It will connect wirelessly, not with some ugly dock-connection port. The laptop itself will have, at most, two plugs: power and display, possibly via usb.

The brick will have more stuff: superdrive, firewire, usb, 2400 baud modem, ethernet, optical-audio out, cassette-tape backup, scsi, nubus, whatever. It can be out of sight, or sit next to (with a physical connection, if desired) your airport, printer, stereo, etc.

The macbook itself will be like the air (similar size/shape/weight); people can buy a 2nd brick for their office/home if they want - the point is that the laptop will be the lightest/thinnest/smallest thing it can possibly be, and look really cool, but it's wedded to all of the peripherals a person could want in a way that the macbook air currently is not.

Benefit of this plan: Cheapest/lightest laptop possible without sacrificing functionality.
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post #68 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Assuming this is correct why not combine the MB and MBP into one product line with 15/17 inch versions configured with either a 'consumer' or 'pro' spec, with a 13 inch MBA and 10 inch Mac Tablet for those who need ultra portability.

I agree - why not combine the two. They are all MacBooks and the 'Pro' thing is really just vanity. There are lots of 'pros' that use the MacBook, and likewise there are lots of non-pros that use the 'pro'. It has very little to do with being pro (what exactly does that mean? I'm a pro and I use an iMac) and everything to do with what your requirements are.

As for the Ultra Portable - not happening. The market for these thing is ultra mini and so of little interest.
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post #69 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun View Post

True. And if they change the design of the current Cinema Displays, they may change the design of the current Mac Pro as well.

Sorry for the noob question, but does that mean my brand new fancy-dancy early 08 Mac Pro won't be compatible with the new Cinema Displays? Because I've been salivating over refreshed ACD's for months. Sometimes I dream about them when I sleep.
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post #70 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyopiaRocks View Post

A Guess:

There will be a docking station for macbooks. It will be a brick. It will connect wirelessly, not with some ugly dock-connection port.

You mean like that ugly dock-connection port on iPhones and iPods?
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post #71 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

As for the Ultra Portable - not happening. The market for these thing is ultra mini and so of little interest.

A glance at Amazons top 10 selling laptops disagrees. Netbooks are going to be this holiday season's biggest sellers and Apple really dropped the ball with the MacBook Air. That's the laptop version of the Cube. They should have made an Atom based MacBook Mini instead - all the portability of a netbook with the pizazz of a Mac.
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post #72 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

There are lots of 'pros' that use the MacBook, and likewise there are lots of non-pros that use the 'pro'. It has very little to do with being pro (what exactly does that mean? I'm a pro and I use an iMac) and everything to do with what your requirements are. It has very little to do with being pro (what exactly does that mean? I'm a pro and I use an iMac) and everything to do with what your requirements are.

A non-glossy screen, for one thing. Easier serviceability would be another. Take the user replaceable hard drive of the Macbook and add the ability to slide out the optical drive and put in a second battery.
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post #73 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:34pm
MBP is a pro machine and its already lacking some ports that its competitor have, I dont think Apple will want to reduce the number of ports summore.

I thought that FireWire S3200 is compatible with FireWire 800?

Quote:
What about MAC PROS?!! Does Apple still even make them??!

Are you an idiot? Go to Apple website and its there. MacPro design right now is very efficient, and even today it still looks good. I wonder if Apple could find way to make the MacPro design better without sacrificing some stuffs?
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post #74 of 163
9/25/08 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

A non-glossy screen, for one thing. Easier serviceability would be another. Take the user replaceable hard drive of the Macbook and add the ability to slide out the optical drive and put in a second battery.


Or a second HD like in the Thinkpad series but I doubt it since signs point that the designers will make it thinner (again). I think I'm going to faint if the MBP becomes thinner then it is, there is only so much Apple can cram into a small thin chassis.
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post #75 of 163
9/25/08 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jezThomp View Post

Hello everyone first post

So let me get this straight if the rumours are correct and i get a new macbook pro it wont work with my apple cinema display?

I've only had a it a few months.

I have been waiting for a new pro for ages.

Could i not just use a Mini-DVI to DVI adaptor?

Welcome
You should be able to use your Apple display, Apple has always include adapters with their notebooks.

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post #76 of 163
9/25/08 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggot777 View Post

What about MAC PROS?!! Does Apple still even make them??!

Yeah they make them and they're crazy-fast!
I recently bought the 2.8Ghz cause I got sick of waiting for the xMac. The MacPro is super-fast but also super duper expensive.
But I hear ya, I'm not a big notebook guy either and I've seen Apple paying less attention to the pro desktops lately.

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post #77 of 163
9/25/08 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Yeah they make them and they're crazy-fast!
I recently bought the 2.8Ghz cause I got sick of waiting for the xMac. The MacPro is super-fast but also super duper expensive.
But I hear ya, I'm not a big notebook guy either and I've seen Apple paying less attention to the pro desktops lately.

Really, I guess that you missed the release of the current models in January.

If you want to get even sicker, keep waiting for a model that Apple isn't going to make, the xMac. It's amazing that people will insist on something that has no chance. Why not wish for a Hot Pink Mac, you probably have a better shot at that.
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post #78 of 163
9/25/08 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

Removing the FireWire 400 port, leaving only ONE FireWire 800 port makes no sense. I use my FW800 port all the time for a LaCie 2big Triple RAID (TIme Machine) and daisy-chained to several other FW800 drives.<snip>

Bad idea removing the full-sized DVI port! Now I carry a DVI to VGA adaptor. But with mini-DVI, I'd be forced to carry TWO adaptors.

I occasionally use 2 firewire ports also, though I think I can get around it with 1. It may be that Apple is trying to push laptops more into the laptop realm (ie less connections), and not as alternatives for your home PC. I'm not sure what I think if that's the case... as for many people the laptop is their primary computer (myself included).

As for the DVI port - just replace your DVI-to-VGA adaptor with a mini-DVI-to-VGA adaptor. Don't daisy-chain 2 together. Oh.... the MBA uses a Micro-DVI, not a Mini-DVI, so I'd assume the same for these.

I'd rather see Apple moving to HDMI (or Display Port) than micro-DVI, but then it wouldn't be backward compatible with VGA at all. And there's a lot of background hardware required for HDCP, not just the port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandros View Post

I think they ought to replace the USB-A ports with Mini-USB ports

The main reason Apple won't do that is the huge numbers of iPods that suddenly would need a new connector cable. Hey perhaps Apple is betting on wireless USB now.
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post #79 of 163
9/25/08 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

If Apple put a SuperDrive in the base config. then nobody would buy the middle of the range machine.

Agreed. I had to whine for a REALLY long time (months) before my wife agreed to let me spend money on a MacBook. She didn't see the point, as we already had three WinXP machines in the house. (Except that was the point... \) The bottom model was passable. I wanted more memory and speed, but wasn't even going to ask.

As we were driving to the store, she stared asking me details - I got the the part where it had the CD Burner/DVD-ROM.
"What? It can't even burn a DVD???"
"Well, the next model up can."
"How much more is that?"
"$200."
"$200 to burn a DVD???"
"Well, it's got more memory and a little faster processor."
"I don't care about those. $200 to burn a DVD???"

Guess which one we got. And guess how many DVD's we've burned!
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post #80 of 163
9/25/08 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausage&Onion View Post

on a macbook, whatever, do your thing, but that miniDVI bullshit and lack of FW400 support is really fucking annoying. I want MORE ports, not less, for god's sake!

This is why it's important that you read the article and pay attention. The FW800 port will have backwards compatibility with FW400. With Apple, less is always better.
Switching From Windows on Nov. 30th 2007
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MacBook Pro 13" 2011
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Switching From Windows on Nov. 30th 2007
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MacBook Pro 13" 2011
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