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Nokia answers iPhone's blows with its first touchscreen phone

post #1 of 142
Thread Starter 
After more than a year without a direct competitor to the iPhone, Nokia on Thursday fired back with a phone that it hopes will better Apple's now widespread device -- albeit with a delayed launch and a few other catches.

Although the largest single producer of cellphones in the world, Nokia is only now rolling out its first touchscreen phone in the form of the 5800 XpressMusic.

Pitched as a media phone first and an Internet device second, the familiar-looking device has 3G, GPS and Wi-Fi but focuses most of its attention on a reworked, 5th Edition of the Symbian Series 60 operating system that has a drop-down media bar for controlling music regardless of where the user might happen to be in their software.

The Finland-based company touts a crisper 640x360 screen versus the iPhone's 480x320, vibration feedback for on-screen presses, a 3.2-megapixel camera with flash and video recording, and removable storage.

And in a not-so-subtle tweak at the absence of Flash on the iPhone, Nokia notes that Flash Lite 3 is built into the 5800's full HTML web browser.

"Individuals can surf the entire web, not just pieces of it," the company boasts.



Price is also important to Nokia. The phone's unsubsidized price with an 8GB memory card is set at 279 Euro, or $396 -- well below the $631 UK iPhone sold with O2's pay-as-you-go service and lower still than the $826 Belgian iPhone.

A special version of the phone will come later with access to the handset maker's Comes With Music, a service that hikes the price of the phone in return for a year's worth of unlimited but permanent music downloads.

Even with these key differences, several discrepancies as well as Nokia's current competitive environment may dampen expectations. Thanks in part to Apple's patents for multi-touch input, the 5800 uses a single-touch display and comes bundled with a stylus to handle aspects of the interface that can't be controlled with a finger.

The screen is also dependent on pressure for input rather than the reaction to finger electricity that makes the iPhone's input relatively subtle and precise, further supporting the need for a pen.

Moreover, Nokia's final release plans for the heavily leaked phone are now known to be especially conservative. Instead of a launch into its core European market or into Apple's US home, Nokia will have to launch its first touchscreen phone in Asia, the Middle East and Russia during 2008. American and European launches are now only due in 2009 and won't necessarily bring Comes With Music to all areas.

The official explanation, according to representatives speaking with Forbes, is the insistence by carriers such as Orange and Vodafone that the new XpressMusic phone come to their networks with proprietary branding and portals adapted to the touch interface. By contrast, Apple has so far insisted on keeping nearly all carrier branding and interfaces off of iPhones regardless of territory and just recently completed its third wave of iPhone 3G introductions, launching the phone in 30 more countries late last month.

The delays only serve to reinforce problems that the Symbian Foundation and Nokia itself has had with preserving its lead. Recent statistics from the mobile operating system development group have Symbian's use on phones growing just 5 percent year-over-year versus rapid growth just the year before, while Nokia proper has had to lower estimates for its market share during the summer as Apple and peers undercut its smartphones' pricing.
post #2 of 142
What a blatant rip-off of the iPhone.

Sure the rest of the industry are (poorly) copying the iPhone, but thought Nokia would have at least come up with something slightly unique. Sad.
post #3 of 142
I never liked Nokia, their phones are boring. Sony Ericsson have much better phones than Nokia.
post #4 of 142
Another iPhone clone with EPIC FAIL written all over it. Full HTML browser? See that screen cap with Facebook? That's the mobile site.
post #5 of 142
Dead man dialing.
post #6 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Thanks in part to Apple's patents for multi-touch input, the 5800 uses a single-touch display and comes bundled with a stylus to handle aspects of the interface that can't be controlled with a finger.

The screen is also dependent on pressure for input rather than the reaction to finger electricity that makes the iPhone's input relatively subtle and precise, further supporting the need for a pen.

Not all touch-screens are created equal, shame the buying-public won't get this.

McD
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post #7 of 142
Not bad for a phone that will be given away for free in 6 months. Nokia is about bulk. They'll probably sell a 100 million of them in year's time.

Apple shook-up the industry and now the industry is catching up. What's next Apple?
post #8 of 142
The single fact that you have to use a stylus (other than being unoriginal) makes this thing lame.
post #9 of 142
Let's see. It has GPS that is usable with Maps and turn by turn directions built in.
We have a dot that moves when you drive.
Support for All Major Video Formats including Flash Light.
Voice Dialing.
Speed Dialing.
Stereo BlueTooth.
Video Recording and with front separate camera.
3.2 Mega Pixel Camer with zoom and a flash
Audio and Video Recording Built in
Stereo FM Built in
MMS

Weren't these all the things we wanted when we purchased our iPhone 3G's.

I know it's what I wanted and it's pretty slick looking. Wish I was still in my 30 day return policy.

Apple. Take Note of what's being offered built into the phone without having to pay or wait extra time for.

Nice Job Nokia.
post #10 of 142
Sorry double post.
post #11 of 142
See the Gizmodo review of it...they really hate it.
post #12 of 142
People are forgetting about some of the philosophies of Nokia regarding women consumerswomen will take notice of this phone. And unfortunately (clone or not) it will bite into Apple iPhone sales.
post #13 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by quamb View Post

What a blatant rip-off of the iPhone.

Sure the rest of the industry are (poorly) copying the iPhone, but thought Nokia would have at least come up with something slightly unique. Sad.

No it's not- does the iPhone have Flash?
post #14 of 142
Comes With Music is awesome.

All the music you can download from all labels and independants, Keep the music forever. Authorize a computer to use your Comes With Music too.

Freely give all your music to other Comes With Music users.

Whatever happened to iTunes Unlimited?

I would rather DRM free but I couldn't afford my collection of MP3 files at 0.99c a track. So Comes with Music sounds great.
post #15 of 142
Go for it Nokia!! I'll be buying one even though I have had both 1st and 2nd gen iPhone. The Appleistas take note: enough of your appalling arrogance... now get it right. The things that are not right in iPhone need to be fixed soon, very soon... cut & paste, flash, tethering, video recording, better camera, stupid activation stuff, closed platform etc etc. The Apple guys obviously don't want world domination. They just want their soon to be reached aficionado share!
post #16 of 142
At least I don't have to subscribe to AT&T's $1,700 for 2 years plan in order to buy the phone.

The real test for many users will be: How well does the device work as a phone, its primary function ? After all, if one just wants pizazz, an iPod Touch is cheaper.

It would be a mistake to underestimate Nokia.
post #17 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"Individuals can surf the entire web, not just pieces of it," the company boasts.

This is as false as Apple's claim if 'entire web' of full 'internet' means plugins, and support for correctly rendered pages with web standards. Does it support Silverlight, Quicktime, ActiveX? These are part of the internet. While exceedingly common, Adobe Flash is not a web standard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iPond317 View Post

Another iPhone clone with EPIC FAIL written all over it. Full HTML browser? See that screen cap with Facebook? That's the mobile site.

Nokia bought TrollTech earlier this year. TrollTech created Qt. Nokia is working with Mozilla to get Firefox ported to Qt for S60. This is pretty big deal but both parties to grab users, but I'd say it's much more important for Mozilla as WebKitnot just for the mobile Safariis dominating smartphones. Even Blackberry and Android have adopted WebKit because of it's highly mobile design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmike View Post

The single fact that you have to use a stylus (other than being unoriginal) makes this thing lame.

There are plenty that like having a stylus as it does allow for many fine-tuned usage that the iPhone's finger-usage just can't match and won't match. The 5800 may be geared toward better media and internet to compete more directly with the iPhone, but it's still a more hardcore device than the iPhone in many ways. The most iPhone-like phone I've seen is the Sprint Instinct as it's going after the average consumer who probably hasn't ever used a smartphone before, and that is fine for those that want to stay with Sprint (I know several). I love my iPhone as it suits my specific needs, but the 5800 looks like a very solid device that merges popular iPhone features with the Nokia-experience, which happens to have a nice size fan base, too.
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post #18 of 142
I don't think "Flash Lite" is going to give you the "entire" Web either...
post #19 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

crisper 640x360 screen
3.2-megapixel camera with flash and video recording
removable storage
Flash Lite 3 is built in
8GB memory card
year's worth of unlimited but permanent music downloads.

Not a bad start really.
post #20 of 142
What all these companies fall to realize is that not all consumers sit there and tally up the features...I believe that what is most attractive to the tech world is that aesthetics of a device. All these phone companies can continually make devices that have all (or more) of the same features as the iPhone and make no head way because they fail to realize is that the lure of the iPhone is ease of use and the pure beauty of the device. All these devices slap an iPhone in an awkward and ugly plastic coating and they think that people will choose that over the iPhone's metal and glass?
post #21 of 142
Flash Lite isn't enough, I think this should be an all or nothing. I don't even know how many flash objects are compatible with Flash Lite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quamb View Post

What a blatant rip-off of the iPhone.

Sure the rest of the industry are (poorly) copying the iPhone, but thought Nokia would have at least come up with something slightly unique. Sad.

I don't think it's really a copy, there are quite a few differences that are easy to see. It's kind of hard to make a black rectangle look much more different, and it doesn't seem to have the chrome bezel. I think it's less of a copy of several thematic elements than other touch screen phones are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREB View Post

People are forgetting about some of the philosophies of Nokia regarding women consumers—women will take notice of this phone. And unfortunately (clone or not) it will bite into Apple iPhone sales.

Forgetting? I've never even heard of a Nokia philosophy regarding women consumers.
post #22 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Forgetting? I've never even heard of a Nokia philosophy regarding women consumers.

Well the phone DOES vibrate
post #23 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Flash Lite isn't enough, I think this should be an all or nothing. I don't even know how many flash objects are compatible with Flash Lite.

It's based on Flash 7, which debuted in 2003. I have no idea what was taken out or put in, but it's certainly isn't what people are asking for when they ask for Flash on the iPhone. It also has many issues with performance and power usage, but that is expected.

PS: Daring Fireball's Gruber has a good argument as to why Apple will never add Flash to the iPhone, but with only a fraction of phones even using the inept Flash Lite if Apple were to get Adobe to get a solid version of Flash working for the iPhone it would further push OS X iPhone ahead even further as it would be the only phone with this functionality for awhile.
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post #24 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

No it's not- does the iPhone have Flash?

Nokia has semi copied the iphone but not really. Every company copies every company since the beginning of time this is nothing new. Apple is not 100% original with there products either. Anyway I don't like that this phone isn't multi touch or the fact that apple has such a strong hold on multi touch. Eh... first itunes... now multi touch. How can you own a function. Anyway I do like this new phone has flash and a full HTML browser which is what the iphone has that goes to the moron who didn't know that. Anyway if nokias browser actually works especially with flash unlike the iphone which doesn't have flash and still crashes all the time. If I remember correctly it was apple who said. Flash will never be in a phone unless the phone has a built in fan, it will run too hot. HA! morons. Stupid apple.
post #25 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

I don't think "Flash Lite" is going to give you the "entire" Web either...

But eeeeeeeveryone wants to have access to those "shoot the monkey", "do 20 pull-ups", and "George Bush has an IQ of 129...are you smarter than him" ads. And Flash is the only way to access those oh-so-wonderful ads.
post #26 of 142
Here's my take:

# The screen resolution is nice, but the resistive "touchscreen" aka "stylus tap screen" on this thing makes it a non-starter for anyone that has ever touched an iPhone/Touch.

# They basically took the regular Symbian S60 and hacked it around to make it more "touchscreen" friendly. Compared this to the hype and expectations of a totally new revamped touch interface. The interface is still very inconsistent and quirky, like requiring manipulation of scroll bars instead of just swiping to scroll, and some contexts require double-taps where as others require single taps for what is seemingly the same operation. Overall very disappointing, and I think this is one of the reasons they are not advertising this as a high-end "iPhone killer".

# Although the web browser does use webkit as a rendering engine, it is nowhere near as functional as iPhone Safari. It renders HTML pages how they are meant to be seen, but panning and zooming operations look slow, choppy, difficult to use and overall very frustrating compared to the smooth and intuitive operations of iPhone Safari.

# On the other hand, it looks ok for use as a basic music phone, although I wouldn't expect great video playback performance.
post #27 of 142
While we're talking about competition here's what I would love to see in the next major release of iPhone hardware. The iPhone will probably hit 32GB in Jan, the 3rd Gen iPhone, due for release in summer 2009, I want:

32GB Storage, 640x360 3.5" OLED display, 4MP camera with video recording right out of the box. A flash for that camera would be nice too.

Thanks.
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post #28 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

Nokia has semi copied the iphone but not really.

That makes no sense
post #29 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Here's my take:

# The screen resolution is nice, but the resistive "touchscreen" aka "stylus tap screen" on this thing makes it a non-starter for anyone that has ever touched an iPhone/Touch.

here is my take.

it isn't an iPhone competitor as others have said (Nokia will say this as well), but it is an alterative (like all phones are)

Most people cannot afford (or do not want to pay) the service plan associated with an iPhone, making this phone (and all of the Nokia phones you can buy unlocked) a major advantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

# They basically took the regular Symbian S60 and hacked it around to make it more "touchscreen" friendly. Compared this to the hype and expectations of a totally new revamped touch interface.

Touch screens are not a new thing, they have been out for a long time. all touch screen interfaces (including the majority of the iPhone interface) are just adjusted to make them more finger friendly.

And for the multi-touch, that is not an Apple invention, and they don't own the rights to it. Others will start doing it, and will do it better that Apple does (I find the multi-touch on the iPhone/iPod touch very unresponsive)

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

# On the other hand, it looks ok for use as a basic music phone, although I wouldn't expect great video playback performance.

Why would you say that without seeing it? A lot of reports say the iPod isn't the best music player, or video player for that matter (the lack of supported formats is one example). So you are going to downplay a device that hasn't been released yet.
post #30 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

While we're talking about competition here's what I would love to see in the next major release of iPhone hardware. The iPhone will probably hit 32GB in Jan, the 3rd Gen iPhone, due for release in summer 2009, I want:

32GB Storage, 640x360 3.5" OLED display, 4MP camera with video recording right out of the box. A flash for that camera would be nice too.

Thanks.

I wish the 3rd gen iPhone will have an e2e (edge to edge) screen that spans the entire front space of the iPhone. Why can't Apple place the home button at the right side of the phone and the earpiece on the chrome rim? This will allow a large 5" screen that makes video watching, game playing and web surfing much more enjoyable!
post #31 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

While we're talking about competition here's what I would love to see in the next major release of iPhone hardware. The iPhone will probably hit 32GB in Jan, the 3rd Gen iPhone, due for release in summer 2009, I want:

32GB Storage, 640x360 3.5" OLED display, 4MP camera with video recording right out of the box. A flash for that camera would be nice too.

Thanks.

My friend, people in hell want ice water, but it ain't gonna happen.

You might get 32 gigs but OLED is a big change as is the camera. You will need a bigger sensor which requires a bit more space. Not to mention better optics and software, so more megapixels does not necessarily assure a better image. The addition of the flash will also require a complete re-engineering of the current iPhone. I just do not see Apple going through the effort with the 3G being recently launched. Maybe they will though.

As for the other naysayers here. Funny how when Apple released the 1G (2G) iPhone, people were like: "give them a break, give them time, they are new at this, yada, yada, yada". As someone here put it, the Appleistas have just redefined the word hypocrisy. While being a phone lover, even Motorola, I am hopeful that Nokia can pull it off, and if anyone can get it right, they can. The more products in the market, the better for the consumer, unless you are an Appleista and feels the world should be all things iPhone. Right now it appears that the only real advantage the iPhone has going for it is the screen. On usable specs alone, the 5800 is simply miles ahead of the iPhone, and the soon to come N-series version will only up the ante. Apple has some competition on its hands.

The Comes with Music thing will be a hit. DRM free music, able to trasfer it to any device, is an instant hit. Even Amazon is showing great signs of promise. iTunes DRM days may be numbered if they do not start offering DRM free music. As there are several DRM removal scenarios available for iTunes purchased music, and hopefully one coming for video media as well, the 5800 is poised to jump right in the face of Apple in terms of content management, and user experience. Not to mention the ability to run applications in the background, the already massive applications portfolio, and the ability to install anything without having to have it blessed by Apple. This phone and subsequent offerings will appeal to the seemingly millions that have no desire to purchase an iPhone. It has to be noted that not everyone wants one and one again, this phone and its follow ups will fill this void, and Nokia will most likely increase its market share.

Interesting times are coming.
post #32 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

here is my take.

it isn't an iPhone competitor as others have said (Nokia will say this as well), but it is an alterative (like all phones are)

Most people cannot afford (or do not want to pay) the service plan associated with an iPhone, making this phone (and all of the Nokia phones you can buy unlocked) a major advantage



Touch screens are not a new thing, they have been out for a long time. all touch screen interfaces (including the majority of the iPhone interface) are just adjusted to make them more finger friendly.

And for the multi-touch, that is not an Apple invention, and they don't own the rights to it. Others will start doing it, and will do it better that Apple does (I find the multi-touch on the iPhone/iPod touch very unresponsive)



Why would you say that without seeing it? A lot of reports say the iPod isn't the best music player, or video player for that matter (the lack of supported formats is one example). So you are going to downplay a device that hasn't been released yet.

A very good and informative post. Thanks for not having blinders on and seeing things from both sides.
post #33 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

But eeeeeeeveryone wants to have access to those "shoot the monkey", "do 20 pull-ups", and "George Bush has an IQ of 129...are you smarter than him" ads. And Flash is the only way to access those oh-so-wonderful ads.

Funny.
post #34 of 142
This demonstrates that the iPhone price is OBSCENE (besides being linked to a contract, which blocks many sales). Competition is good.
post #35 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Not bad for a phone that will be given away for free in 6 months. Nokia is about bulk. They'll probably sell a 100 million of them in year's time.

Apple shook-up the industry and now the industry is catching up. What's next Apple?

HARDLY !

This is more like Nokia playing catch up to LG rather than Apple. A 'Push' touch screen with a stylus and haptic feedback. That will be the LG KU990 then. lol
post #36 of 142
I said this in another thread but I'll repeat myself...

The problem for Nokia is that this isn't a direct competitor to the iPhone. As noted, it's under half the price of the iPhone. This is no N- or E-series smartphone. That won't stop commentators from comparing it to the iPhone as if it were equally priced though.

There seems to be a lot of ignorance on AI about the capabilities of S60. That's not surprising as this is a North America-centric site. Yes, it'll sync with iTunes. Yes, it'll sync with iSync. Yes, it's web-browser is WebKit based and supports both Flash Lite 3 (aka Flash 8) and Silverlight. No, you don't have to use the stylus for anything apart from hand-writing recognition (which isn't even mandatory).
post #37 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreil View Post

See the Gizmodo review of it...they really hate it.

Where in the articled did they say that they hated it? I think you are embellishing here a bit, or ly....

Gizmodo excerpts:

Quote:
This choice is probably a brilliant one, because after our quick demo, this thing needs a bit more time in the oven before it can stand with the big guys for a touchscreen-only device.

Quote:
The 5800 packs a built-in stylus for this reason—you'll be using it a lot.

Quote:
Going beyond Nokia's proprietary sync software (for iTunes, etc) will be like in any other Symbian phone—not super convenient.

Quote:
you'll probably be using T9 text entry with the touch dialpad or the stylus for most of your text entry unless you have the patience of a monk, which kind of defeats the point for an all-touch device these days.

In your minds and perception, do the above statements count as: really hating it?

Quote:
Comes With Music allows you to sync albums grabbed on the web to your device over 3G, though, which is nice.

You seemed to have missed this favorable statement by the same haters. Would you say that your post was biased, a lie, or you didn't understand the material presented?
post #38 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

I said this in another thread but I'll repeat myself...

The problem for Nokia is that this isn't a direct competitor to the iPhone. As noted, it's under half the price of the iPhone. This is no N- or E-series smartphone. That won't stop commentators from comparing it to the iPhone as if it were equally priced though.

There seems to be a lot of ignorance on AI about the capabilities of S60. That's not surprising as this is a North America-centric site. Yes, it'll sync with iTunes. Yes, it'll sync with iSync. Yes, it's web-browser is WebKit based and supports both Flash Lite 3 (aka Flash 8) and Silverlight. No, you don't have to use the stylus for anything apart from hand-writing recognition (which isn't even mandatory).

Thanks RichL.

A very informative post, and completely neutral.
post #39 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmike View Post

The single fact that you have to use a stylus (other than being unoriginal) makes this thing lame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

# The screen resolution is nice, but the resistive "touchscreen" aka "stylus tap screen" on this thing makes it a non-starter for anyone that has ever touched an iPhone/Touch.

Did you people read the article? It says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

the 5800 uses a single-touch display and comes bundled with a stylus to handle aspects of the interface that can't be controlled with a finger.

It is a touchscreen where your use your finger to control things. The stylus is included for those small keys that "can't be controlled with a finger". I personally don't like the iPhone's keyboard, due to its small size and the fact that I frequently mistype using it. A stylus to complement the touchscreen is welcoming for me as I think it would be very helpful for those emails, notes, etc where I type a lot.

Remember that the world does not always revolve around you...there are others with different needs/desires out there too. I love my mac, and love reading the latest Apple rumors here on AI...but, my God, some of you are just the most arrogant people I've seen. Wasn't Apple's old advertising campaign Think Different...that's advise I suggest to you!!
post #40 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHeneen View Post

Did you people read the article? It says:


It is a touchscreen where your use your finger to control things. The stylus is included for those small keys that "can't be controlled with a finger". I personally don't like the iPhone's keyboard, due to its small size and the fact that I frequently mistype using it. A stylus to complement the touchscreen is welcoming for me as I think it would be very helpful for those emails, notes, etc where I type a lot.

Remember that the world does not always revolve around you...there are others with different needs/desires out there too. I love my mac, and love reading the latest Apple rumors here on AI...but, my God, some of you are just the most arrogant people I've seen. Wasn't Apple's old advertising campaign Think Different...that's advise I suggest to you!!

Outstanding. BPE !!!!!!!!!

BPE = Best Post Ever
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