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Nokia answers iPhone's blows with its first touchscreen phone - Page 3

post #81 of 142
10/4/08 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

No need to rationalize Nokia's poor performance in the USA nor any reason to go insulting the cell phone market in the USA.



VOIP (over WiFi) is already available as a 3rd party app for the iPhone. Tethering and bandwidth hogging apps are still hampered by the limitations of the cell networks. Tethering will likely become available eventually, but it'll come at least an additional $15/month cost.

But as has been talked about time and again, Apple is a 90% company when it comes to features. They choose the features that are the most useful to people, make it easy and fun to use, and market it as such. The features that are rarely used or are of limited usefulness, or sometimes, features that are against Apple's strategic goals, aren't supported. The strategy works as is demonstrated by Apple's success. So the answer to your musing is pretty much, no. They'll always trail in the spec shootouts.

I wasn't intending to insult the US cell phone industry. I am just stating facts. If the facts come across as insults, I would say that you need to get with your cell operators and have them fix the facts.

I know that VoIP over wifi is available. But this is limited. I do not happen to have a wifi base station in my pocket, but I have a ubiquitous cell network that is everywhere. If the networks in the US can not handle something as simple as tethering, then they are in sad shape. Why does it have to cost for a service that all other operators allow for free? To simply shrug this off as the way the game is play, sort of makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution. Operators are in biz because of us, not in spite of us. Try a one week, or even one day boycott of making cell calls and see how they respond.

You might be right about Apple being a 90% company, but it is obvious that Apple will not allow, hinders, blocks or dissuades developers, through its SDK from providing apps that fill the 10% niche market.
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post #82 of 142
10/4/08 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericposts View Post

If the networks in the US can not handle something as simple as tethering, then they are in sad shape. Why does it have to cost for a service that all other operators allow for free?

What other operators are allowing tethering for free?
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post #83 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

I don't give a flying fig about CDMA versus GSM. I was just commenting on Nokia's lack of effort in the USA. There's a reason most of the board don't really know about or care about Nokia. It's amply demonstrated with the 7% marketshare figure (a downward trend too). It's amply demonstrated with Nokia only offering a small fraction of their portfolio through American carriers, selling N-series phones unsubsidized, and not even trying for the CDMA market (which is half the market, but I understand the business reason for not doing so).

Samsung, LG and Motorola are better regarded here among consumers, let alone RIM.

Then why did you raise CDMA if you don't give a fig about it?

The reason they don't try in the CDMA market (you raised it again) is because Qualcomm stopped them from doing so. Also from the fact that internationally the CDMA (2000 style cdma) use is declining with a number of countries removing the networks and changing to GSM based networks.

Also, selling the phones unsubsidised has something to do with the network providers as well, as they have to subsidise them
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post #84 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Well actually you are wrong. There are a number of basic phones that have things like BT, or IRDA, which can be used to tether a device to the phone for data (say for SFA applications).

Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.

Why don't they write that app for the iphone then I hear you say, hmm, background applications work really well when someone rings you...



I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here

Well, if selling one million 3G iPhone in just 2 days is a failure and if a 25% to 30% year to year computers sale increase is a failure then I would love you to tell me what you consider a success!!
It is common business sense to focus in areas where your sales are high and US represent 50% of Apple total sales. Even Apple can't make international transition overnight.
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post #85 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What other operators are allowing tethering for free?

Quite a lot, although not for free (you still have to pay for the data usage, not additional to for tethering)
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post #86 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Well, if selling one million 3G iPhone in just 2 days is a failure and if a 25% to 30% year to year computers sale increase is a failure then I would love you to tell me what you consider a success!!

And in which market did they do the majority of those sales?
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post #87 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What other operators are allowing tethering for free?

Hi Jeff,

All of my co-workers, including myself, that have purchased and iPhone, also have a second phone that tethers with our personal laptops or work computers. Right now I have co-workers in: Belgium, Spain, France, Qatar, Germany, The UK, Poland, Czech, Estonia, Israel and a few other countries and they are all tethering their devices and phones. They purchase a local card with data and away it goes.

I was reading that Apple and AT&T are being sued for locking the phones. I hope the suit pushes them to simply unlock the phones so that it can be realized for its full potential. If AT&T was such a great network then they would not be afraid to compete. Service speaks.

I have been browsing this forum for a bit off and on and it never ceases to amaze me that people will defend AT&T and Apples practices as though they are doing us a favor by selling us products and services. We have the money, they should come to us for it. Not the other way around.
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post #88 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Quite a lot, although not for free (you still have to pay for the data usage, not additional to for tethering)

Exactly my point.

Charging for tethering is like charging someone for breathing but the fact remains, American cell phone users will pay for it, so why not let the operators screw them over?
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post #89 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

And in which market did they do the majority of those sales?

You still didn't answer my question!
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post #90 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Well, if selling one million 3G iPhone in just 2 days is a failure and if a 25% to 30% year to year computers sale increase is a failure then I would love you to tell me what you consider a success!!
It is common business sense to focus in areas where your sales are high and US represent 50% of Apple total sales. Even Apple can't make international transition overnight.

You are correct in your assessment, however the problem with Apple is that they are trying to force a US biz model on the rest of the world and this will not fly.

Why not allow non-US carriers to have the ability to tether the iPhone to laptops, or other devices? Why not enable bluetooth so that it really functions, rather than just supporting the headset profile? It is as though Apple is dumbing down things for consumers or Apple considers consumers to stupid to use more sophisticated functions and services.

BTW, I do not think Apple is trying to make an international transition. They want thing to transition to Apple.
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post #91 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

And in which market did they do the majority of those sales?

Was it the US market?
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post #92 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericposts View Post

Exactly my point.

Charging for tethering is like charging someone for breathing but the fact remains, American cell phone users will pay for it, so why not let the operators screw them over?

I wanted to make sure you weren't comparing something like DSL with cellular internet.

It's great if you aren't charged extra for tethered use. However, I do understand why the US operators would want to charge more for a notebook unlimited plan vs. a phone unlimited plan, it's much easier to be a heavy data user on a notebook than it is on a phone for the same amount of time. I might very well use a thousand times the data on my computer as I do on my phone. If they only charged by amount of data used, then a different price per bit for data on a phone vs. data on a notebook using the same network is silly.
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post #93 of 142
10/4/08 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

It's great if you aren't charged extra for tethered use. However, I do understand why the US operators would want to charge more for a notebook unlimited plan vs. a phone unlimited plan, it's much easier to be a heavy data user on a notebook than it is on a phone for the same amount of time. I might very well use a thousand times the data on my computer as I do on my phone. If they only charged by amount of data used, then a different price per bit for data on a phone vs. data on a notebook using the same network is silly.

NO. I am talking about unlimited GSM/3G data.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think there is nothing wrong with an unlimited data plan. PERIOD. Data is data. If they operators that charge have crappy networks that can not handle that bandwidth then this is their fault. I don't make excuses for them. For AT&T to go this route simply shows that their network is a piece of crap.
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post #94 of 142
10/4/08 at 4:09pm
Addabox, is there a correlation between the number of post's one has, and the breadth and depth of their knowledge? would it be more 'classy', in your opinion, if i waited for 3 or 4 posts and then declared myself an 'expert', which incidentally...I didn't. It was stated in my post for precisely this reason. 'Fanboys' take irrational swipes at anyone who voices an opinion which differs from theirs.
i'm not imposing my opinion upon anyone; I'm merely telling everyone to hold back the hounds because i'm not an 'applehater'

THT,

1. I'm not a nokia fan.
2. I didn't say nokia is a 'has been' or a 'never was'. I said they're the largest cellphone company in the world. I doubt you can refute that.
3. I didn't say there were any subsidized N-series phones in the U.S
4. Nor did i say how much they are / will be subsidized by.

What i did say, and i will reiterate here, is that the 58xx series has historically been a low to mid range phone with emphasis on music. I didn't say the tube was going to compete with the iphone because in the past, it has not been a smartphone. I'm not saying that Nokia will dent the u.s market. What i am saying....is that nokia is going to sell a ton of these phones.

My previous post was based on facts. if you want a debate, a debatable observation is that in the past, nokia hasn't been popular in the u.s because the u.s market prefers flip phone / clam shell devices, which nokia doesn't have too many of in their lineup. we can sit and lock horns about that (constructively) all day long.

@ GenericPosts,

thank you.
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post #95 of 142
10/4/08 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

You still didn't answer my question!

Yes I did, I answered it with a question, namely, where were did these sales take place?

You said

Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Even Apple can't make international transition overnight

Apple have been in business for a long time now, they are not a start up, they have had a lot of "overnights" to move into the international market.
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post #96 of 142
10/4/08 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Yes I did, I answered it with a question, namely, where were did these sales take place?

Success is success. If you are making a 30% growth globally when everyone else is declining then you are making something exceptional, don't you agree? You cannot say Apple is doing good products for the US only because they have 50% of their sales in the US!! Apple might not be making the same sales overseas but they are not losing money overseas either.

[/QUOTE]Apple have been in business for a long time now, they are not a start up, they have had a lot of "overnights" to move into the international market.[/QUOTE]

True, but you seem to forget that Apple almost went bankrupt 10 years ago! they have been in business but they have been struggling to stay in business with less than 1% PC market. Look at them now, they are at almost 7% and doing much better than the competition. Don't you think maybe the are doing something right?!

Even with Edge and no official third party access, the 1st generation iPhone had 19.5% marketshare in the US in 2007 (Since it was only available at the US in 2007). Maybe Apple is not doing much overseas for some people, but that doesn't mean their products are not innovative and a head of the competition.
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post #97 of 142
10/4/08 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Success is success. If you are making a 30% growth globally when everyone else is declining then you are making something exceptional, don't you agree? You cannot say Apple is doing good products for the US only because they have 50% of their sales in the US!! Apple might not be making the same sales overseas but they are not losing money overseas either.

In what product line did they have a 30% international growth in?

Maybe the price they try and charge for some of there overseas market helps with their money making

Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

True, but you seem to forget that Apple almost went bankrupt 10 years ago! they have been in business but they have been struggling to stay in business with less than 1% PC market. Look at them now, they are at almost 7% and doing much better than the competition. Don't you think maybe the are doing something right?!

They moved to the high priced sales area, you get enough people paying extra for a machine (me included) and you can make a profit (eg BMW etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Even with Edge and no official third party access, the 1st generation iPhone had 19.5% marketshare in the US in 2007 (Since it was only available at the US in 2007). Maybe Apple is not doing much overseas for some people, but that doesn't mean their products are not innovative and a head of the competition.

Only in the smartphone side of things, for all phone sales they are barely 1% (it was all phones that Steve mentioned in his little talk).

And what is the point if you product is that much better than the competitions if you can't sell it?
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post #98 of 142
10/4/08 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yb1 View Post

Addabox, is there a correlation between the number of post's one has, and the breadth and depth of their knowledge? would it be more 'classy', in your opinion, if i waited for 3 or 4 posts and then declared myself an 'expert', which incidentally...I didn't. It was stated in my post for precisely this reason. 'Fanboys' take irrational swipes at anyone who voices an opinion which differs from theirs.
i'm not imposing my opinion upon anyone; I'm merely telling everyone to hold back the hounds because i'm not an 'applehater'

THT,

1. I'm not a nokia fan.
2. I didn't say nokia is a 'has been' or a 'never was'. I said they're the largest cellphone company in the world. I doubt you can refute that.
3. I didn't say there were any subsidized N-series phones in the U.S
4. Nor did i say how much they are / will be subsidized by.

What i did say, and i will reiterate here, is that the 58xx series has historically been a low to mid range phone with emphasis on music. I didn't say the tube was going to compete with the iphone because in the past, it has not been a smartphone. I'm not saying that Nokia will dent the u.s market. What i am saying....is that nokia is going to sell a ton of these phones.

My previous post was based on facts. if you want a debate, a debatable observation is that in the past, nokia hasn't been popular in the u.s because the u.s market prefers flip phone / clam shell devices, which nokia doesn't have too many of in their lineup. we can sit and lock horns about that (constructively) all day long.

@ GenericPosts,

thank you.

Make no mistake, this is a fanboy site without exception. There are several here that can argue a point without becoming emotional but many to most can not. In many cases facts never come into play. Just that "Apple rulz" and others are crap. Apple products get benefit of the doubt while other products don't get this luxury. Now I know how Obama feels.

As for the 58xx, it will sell by the boatload to the very same people that do not want an iPhone. This is one thing that is NEVER taken into account. There are actually people who do not want an iPhone. It would be safe to say that there are more people not wanting an iPhone than those that do, and this is the market that the 58xx series will appeal to. These are the people that will see the 58xx series as a low to middle end phone that is more complete than the iPhone. With the ability to add any software you like, tethering, a complete VoIP solution (not just VoIP via wifi), and being unlocked, this will appear to most as a more complete and compelling package. The keys selling points for me are the unlocked sim, the tethering, and VoIP, not to mention more robust telephony. To respond, and they must, Apple will be forced to address the basics that I mentioned above.
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post #99 of 142
10/4/08 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericposts View Post

I wasn't intending to insult the US cell phone industry. I am just stating facts. If the facts come across as insults, I would say that you need to get with your cell operators and have them fix the facts.

You didn't state any facts. You stated an opinion as to why Nokia doesn't do well in the US market. At least yb1 gave a decent opinion (Nokia doesn't do flip phones) of why while yours was a rather laughable: Nokia is just doing the minimum or the USA market isn't worth the effort.

Quote:
I know that VoIP over wifi is available. But this is limited. I do not happen to have a wifi base station in my pocket, but I have a ubiquitous cell network that is everywhere. If the networks in the US can not handle something as simple as tethering, then they are in sad shape. Why does it have to cost for a service that all other operators allow for free? To simply shrug this off as the way the game is play, sort of makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution. Operators are in biz because of us, not in spite of us. Try a one week, or even one day boycott of making cell calls and see how they respond.

I'm pretty sure a boycott of making cell calls will pretty much do nothing. Try not renewing a cell phone contract or not buying a cell phone instead. Moreover, like is done elsewhere, it can only be done through legislative fiat. Unfortunately, carrier behavior is the least thing on our government's minds.
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post #100 of 142
10/4/08 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Quite a lot, although not for free (you still have to pay for the data usage, not additional to for tethering)

Please name an operator. I'm curious what the small print says.
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post #101 of 142
10/4/08 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericposts View Post

All of my co-workers, including myself, that have purchased and iPhone, also have a second phone that tethers with our personal laptops or work computers. Right now I have co-workers in: Belgium, Spain, France, Qatar, Germany, The UK, Poland, Czech, Estonia, Israel and a few other countries and they are all tethering their devices and phones. They purchase a local card with data and away it goes.

Please name an operator, and the plan as well. Business plan? Consumer plan? Pay as you go? I'm curious.

Also, what kind of card? SIM card? PC Card?

My work phone, obviously a business plan, allows me to tether, but it comes at a cost of at least 15+ dollars more than consumer data plan.

Quote:
I was reading that Apple and AT&T are being sued for locking the phones. I hope the suit pushes them to simply unlock the phones so that it can be realized for its full potential. If AT&T was such a great network then they would not be afraid to compete. Service speaks.

That's not what the suit is about. It's perfectly legal to lock phones here in the USA. It's also legal here to unlock phones (at least until the DCMA exemptions expire in 2009), it's just that the carriers don't really advertise it and don't out of their way to advertise it.

Quote:
I have been browsing this forum for a bit off and on and it never ceases to amaze me that people will defend AT&T and Apples practices as though they are doing us a favor by selling us products and services. We have the money, they should come to us for it. Not the other way around.

You do realize this is Appleinsider? What are you expecting? It's really not that odd. You can go to Crackberry.com, TreoCentral.com, Symbian-Freak, AllAboutSymbian, MSmobiles.com and witness the same fan behavior. For the most part, Apple forums are interesting and lively due to lots of people participating. The other sites, not so much participation, hence, not so fun. I'm sure you're more than welcome to go the other sites and say Blackberries suck, Nokia sucks or MS sucks all you want. Just don't expect people to play nicey-nicey with you.
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post #102 of 142
10/4/08 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yb1 View Post

THT,

1. I'm not a nokia fan.
2. I didn't say nokia is a 'has been' or a 'never was'. I said they're the largest cellphone company in the world. I doubt you can refute that.
3. I didn't say there were any subsidized N-series phones in the U.S
4. Nor did i say how much they are / will be subsidized by.

What i did say, and i will reiterate here, is that the 58xx series has historically been a low to mid range phone with emphasis on music. I didn't say the tube was going to compete with the iphone because in the past, it has not been a smartphone. I'm not saying that Nokia will dent the u.s market. What i am saying....is that nokia is going to sell a ton of these phones.

Where'd I say Nokia isn't the largest phone maker? I said they are a minority player here in the USA, with barely a reputation. Do you think that American consumers will be Nokia phones just because of its brand? Elsewhere in the world, people will buy Nokia just because of its brand, no matter how crappy the phone is. Not in the USA.

As to how much they'll sell, well, lets wait and see. What's your prediction for units? I think the resistive screen, and the need for the stylus, is not a good sign for the usability of the phone, but price makes up for a lot of deficiencies.

Quote:
My previous post was based on facts. if you want a debate, a debatable observation is that in the past, nokia hasn't been popular in the u.s because the u.s market prefers flip phone / clam shell devices, which nokia doesn't have too many of in their lineup. we can sit and lock horns about that (constructively) all day long.

You're the first person I've heard to suggest Nokia doesn't do well in the USA because it is not in their DNA to produce flip phones. Interesting proposal. But I'm somewhat skeptical. First and foremost is making agreements with the carriers to ship one's phones. Nokia has a gigantic portfolio and can offer free, low-end, mid-range, and high-end phones. Second is to have good marketing to build the brand. It seems something truly has gone awry with Nokia and American carriers such that don't offer a big portfolio through a carrier here. As for marketing, I don't think it'll be hard for me to find people who think it sucks.
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post #103 of 142
10/4/08 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Then why did you raise CDMA if you don't give a fig about it?

Because it is an example of Nokia not caring, not trying, or just being incompetent at trying to capture marketshare in the USA. CDMA has been half the American market for like a decade. You'd think the world's largest phone maker has enough resources to address it. It's really not that hard to pay a license fee either. Heck, it's not like shipping a CDMA phone has been reason number 1 or number 2 as to why Apple can't be successful with the iPhone. You'd think Apple should listen to these analysts.

You can say that Nokia has strategic goals not to support CDMA, which I can agree with. If so, you have to agree that Apple has strategic goals as well, and they are evident in what they do and don't do with the iPhone and its features.

Quote:
Also, selling the phones unsubsidised has something to do with the network providers as well, as they have to subsidise them

It's not that hard for Nokia to send a business team over to the USA and make a deal.
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post #104 of 142
10/4/08 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

In what product line did they have a 30% international growth in?

Maybe the price they try and charge for some of there overseas market helps with their money making

Sorry.. more like 40 to 50% and who said anything about profit?! profit and growth are two separate things. Growth shows how your products are accepted and have nothing to do with profit (look at Xbo.. growth with loss). If you read the following AI report you will see that Mac sales figures in North America and Europe for this year are not far apart.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...d_quarter.html



Quote:
They moved to the high priced sales area, you get enough people paying extra for a machine (me included) and you can make a profit (eg BMW etc)

Maybe you should go back and research why Apple almost went bankrupted and how they recovered instead of making things up. You cannot make up history no matter how hard you try.

Quote:
And what is the point if you product is that much better than the competitions if you can't sell it?

You are kidding right? Which product are they struggling to sell? Macs (see the above figure)? iPods (75% market share)? iPhones (You said it yourself 19.5% market share in the smartphone market in just 3 months!)?

Please stop trying to discredit Apple success and their figures as those figures don't lie.
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post #105 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Please name an operator. I'm curious what the small print says.

Vodafone

Choose any of the countries.

Meteor in Ireland will. O2 in Ireland will let you.
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post #106 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Because it is an example of Nokia not caring, not trying, or just being incompetent at trying to capture marketshare in the USA. CDMA has been half the American market for like a decade. You'd think the world's largest phone maker has enough resources to address it. It's really not that hard to pay a license fee either. Heck, it's not like shipping a CDMA phone has been reason number 1 or number 2 as to why Apple can't be successful with the iPhone. You'd think Apple should listen to these analysts.

Like I have said a number of times, they did try, and it is hard to pay a licence fee if you believe you shouldn't have to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

You can say that Nokia has strategic goals not to support CDMA, which I can agree with. If so, you have to agree that Apple has strategic goals as well, and they are evident in what they do and don't do with the iPhone and its features.

No, I said Qualcomm introduced legal avenues that stopped them from doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

It's not that hard for Nokia to send a business team over to the USA and make a deal.

Yes it is, Qualcomm was falsely demanding money for CDMA licences/chips etc, Nokia didn't want to pay.
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post #107 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Please name an operator, and the plan as well. Business plan? Consumer plan? Pay as you go? I'm curious.

Also, what kind of card? SIM card? PC Card?

Many of us with Macs use Novamedia's product: Launch2Net. No need for a card. Bluetooth connection and away we go. As we are traveling around most of the time, many, including me have pre-paid cards. A few of us that are in one country more than others tend to have post-paid contracts. What kind of card? Not sure what you mean here. It is a sim card in a regular 3G phone. Pretty standard stuff.

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My work phone, obviously a business plan, allows me to tether, but it comes at a cost of at least 15+ dollars more than consumer data plan.

I tether without the need to pay an extra anything other than the standard data rates. Next week I will be in Germany with my T-Mobile card. Pre-paid, rechargeable, with data already turned on. No extra fees. Sorry that your current provider is making you pay for services that others give away but they see it as another way to gouge you.

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That's not what the suit is about. It's perfectly legal to lock phones here in the USA. It's also legal here to unlock phones (at least until the DCMA exemptions expire in 2009), it's just that the carriers don't really advertise it and don't out of their way to advertise it.

Fair enough.

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You do realize this is Appleinsider? What are you expecting? It's really not that odd. You can go to Crackberry.com, TreoCentral.com, Symbian-Freak, AllAboutSymbian, MSmobiles.com and witness the same fan behavior. For the most part, Apple forums are interesting and lively due to lots of people participating. The other sites, not so much participation, hence, not so fun. I'm sure you're more than welcome to go the other sites and say Blackberries suck, Nokia sucks or MS sucks all you want. Just don't expect people to play nicey-nicey with you.

I have no problem with fan loyalty but it seems to be to the point of excessiveness here, but then again you have a point. By the way, the Nokia forums are equally represented as here. By the way, they give away things. Any chance of that happening here?
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post #108 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

You didn't state any facts. You stated an opinion as to why Nokia doesn't do well in the US market. At least yb1 gave a decent opinion (Nokia doesn't do flip phones) of why while yours was a rather laughable: Nokia is just doing the minimum or the USA market isn't worth the effort.

You mean to say that your 200 plus posts didn't give you insight into the obvious? It has been mentioned here many times why Nokia is not a major force in the US. The CEO of Nokia, a few months ago, even came out and said that Nokia has not been very active in the US market. They do not have to be to sell phones. Nokia also has their network biz which accounts for a nice chunk of change, so for them, they sell the network infrastructure in the US and the phones elsewhere. Also, yb1 made an excellent post, and I had nothing more to add to it. So you can stop laughing now. The fact that you seem to be whining like some pre-pubescent teenager of the obvious is really laughable. The fact remains, Nokia is not really interested in the US at this moment. I am very sure, if they were, you would see more phones for the US market. It is not this hard to understand is it?

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I'm pretty sure a boycott of making cell calls will pretty much do nothing. Try not renewing a cell phone contract or not buying a cell phone instead. Moreover, like is done elsewhere, it can only be done through legislative fiat. Unfortunately, carrier behavior is the least thing on our government's minds.

My idea of not making phone calls was one of practicality. You need the phone, and in some cases the contract, so a boycott would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. However, making less calls will result in less income and will be immediately felt where as contract renewals would take a while to get traction. Agree about the gov't thing as well.
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post #109 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:39am
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Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Vodafone

Choose any of the countries.

Meteor in Ireland will. O2 in Ireland will let you.

The Swedish operators will, Estonians as well, Russian, German, Finnish, Belgium also... I had no problems in the Mid East while in Egypt (arguably Africa), Kuwait, Israel, and a few other places. They simply sold the card, asked if I want data turned on, I said yes and it was a done deal.
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post #110 of 142
10/5/08 at 7:00am
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Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Not bad for a phone that will be given away for free in 6 months. Nokia is about bulk. They'll probably sell a 100 million of them in year's time.

Apple shook-up the industry and now the industry is catching up. What's next Apple?

That's a good point, and also a happy one. We NEED more iPhone competitors for one reason only: to keep apple on their toes, pushing forward and innovating. Also to punish them when they choose to ignore features that their customers want and their competitors provide.
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post #111 of 142
10/5/08 at 8:44am
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Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Sorry.. more like 40 to 50% and who said anything about profit?! profit and growth are two separate things. Growth shows how your products are accepted and have nothing to do with profit (look at Xbo.. growth with loss). If you read the following AI report you will see that Mac sales figures in North America and Europe for this year are not far apart.

When you don't sell a lot of a product it is not hard to get a 40-50% growth

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Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Maybe you should go back and research why Apple almost went bankrupted and how they recovered instead of making things up. You cannot make up history no matter how hard you try.

Pardon? If you look at the products Apple sell, they are at the upper end of the price range, what part of that is made up? Maybe you should pull your head out of Apples arse and have a look for yourself

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Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

You are kidding right? Which product are they struggling to sell? Macs (see the above figure)? iPods (75% market share)? iPhones (You said it yourself 19.5% market share in the smartphone market in just 3 months!)?

In the US only, and only in a small sector of the phone market at that, they are hardly at 1% of the total market. Their market share for most of their products is small in Europe, that is a fact. The only product the sell a lot of is the iPod

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Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Please stop trying to discredit Apple success and their figures as those figures don't lie.

I am not. I own several Apple products, and will buy more. I am just sick to death of the fanboys that insist there is only one option of a product to purchase, the Apple experience people try and pass off is not as truthful as people make it out to be.
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post #112 of 142
10/5/08 at 10:27am
Nokia Chief Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo has high praise for the iPhone.

One word for Mr Kallasvuo: I knew Jim Valvano. Jim Valvano was a friend of mine. And you, Mr. Kallasvuo, are no Jim Valvano.
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post #113 of 142
10/5/08 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

When you don't sell a lot of a product it is not hard to get a 40-50% growth



Pardon? If you look at the products Apple sell, they are at the upper end of the price range, what part of that is made up? Maybe you should pull your head out of Apples arse and have a look for yourself



In the US only, and only in a small sector of the phone market at that, they are hardly at 1% of the total market. Their market share for most of their products is small in Europe, that is a fact. The only product the sell a lot of is the iPod



I am not. I own several Apple products, and will buy more. I am just sick to death of the fanboys that insist there is only one option of a product to purchase, the Apple experience people try and pass off is not as truthful as people make it out to be.

Did you even read most of the BS you've just said?!

You are not providing a single number that support your theory! and from the sales figure I've just showed you Europe is buying Macs at a rate close to what is sold in North America. Where are you getting the information about not selling many products in Europe (You've just said alot of iPods and this graph shows alot of Macs and from what we are hearing not a bad number of iPhones are being sold too). It doesn't take a fanboy or a genius to interpret of these numbers.
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post #114 of 142
10/5/08 at 1:20pm
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Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Did you even read most of the BS you've just said?!

No, as I am generally too busy cleaning myself after reading your BS


Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

You are not providing a single number that support your theory! and from the sales figure I've just showed you Europe is buying Macs at a rate close to what is sold in North America. Where are you getting the information about not selling many products in Europe (You've just said alot of iPods and this graph shows alot of Macs and from what we are hearing not a bad number of iPhones are being sold too). It doesn't take a fanboy or a genius to interpret of these numbers.

The charts you show indicates for the last while the US sales of Macs have been around 45% to 60% of all Mac sales. There are over 6 billion people in the world, around 300 million in the US. There are numbers for you, Apple is not doing that well in the rest of the world as they are in their home market.

As for Europe, is this Apple's Europe, or the actual Europe, or the EU or what?

The only part of Europe that I have seen a large push for Apple products (exluding iPods) has been in Britain. In Ireland you don't see many at all, and a lot of people will not go for a Mac as they think it is more expensive than a Dell etc, they see no perceived benefit in OS X.

As for iPhone sales, no they are not doing well in Europe, or any other country excluding the US, that is a fact. Appleinsider is a propaganda site, just like macrumors, they are here to say positive things about Apple, and they always have a postive outlook for everything, I wouldn't really trust information from here, particularly sales figures
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post #115 of 142
10/5/08 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

No, as I am generally too busy cleaning myself after reading your BS




The charts you show indicates for the last while the US sales of Macs have been around 45% to 60% of all Mac sales. There are over 6 billion people in the world, around 300 million in the US. There are numbers for you, Apple is not doing that well in the rest of the world as they are in their home market.

As for Europe, is this Apple's Europe, or the actual Europe, or the EU or what?

The only part of Europe that I have seen a large push for Apple products (exluding iPods) has been in Britain. In Ireland you don't see many at all, and a lot of people will not go for a Mac as they think it is more expensive than a Dell etc, they see no perceived benefit in OS X.

As for iPhone sales, no they are not doing well in Europe, or any other country excluding the US, that is a fact. Appleinsider is a propaganda site, just like macrumors, they are here to say positive things about Apple, and they always have a postive outlook for everything, I wouldn't really trust information from here, particularly sales figures

Reading my BS?! These are sales figures from Apple quarterly reports.The last time I checked, Apple is the only manufacturer and source for Macintosh computers.

you said Europe and you have been crying Europe since we began this argument. What Part of Europe you don't understand?! maybe you should retake geography again. It doesn't matter where in Europe they are selling their products the same way it doesn't matter at which state in the US!! As for the rest of the world, in most parts of the world people are having trouble buying food and getting education. How do you expect them to buy computers! Based on your perspective, no corporation is doing good since no single corporation can reach every single person in the planet! Even Dell have sales high in areas and non in others.

I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone whose goal is "opposition for the sake of opposition". You have no data to support your argument. You keep going in circles. You cannot accept the facts because you don't like them. It seems that you don't like Apple but for some reason you keep buying their products and keep posting on a forum for Apple news and information. You keep using cheap language once you find yourself cornered.
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post #116 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Reading my BS?! These are sales figures from Apple quarterly reports.The last time I checked, Apple is the only manufacturer and source for Macintosh computers.

you said Europe and you have been crying Europe since we began this argument. What Part of Europe you don't understand?! maybe you should retake geography again. It doesn't matter where in Europe they are selling their products the same way it doesn't matter at which state in the US!! As for the rest of the world, in most parts of the world people are having trouble buying food and getting education. How do you expect them to buy computers! Based on your perspective, no corporation is doing good since no single corporation can reach every single person in the planet! Even Dell have sales high in areas and non in others.

I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone whose goal is "opposition for the sake of opposition". You have no data to support your argument. You keep going in circles. You cannot accept the facts because you don't like them. It seems that you don't like Apple but for some reason you keep buying their products and keep posting on a forum for Apple news and information. You keep using cheap language once you find yourself cornered.

You my friend are a fool.

The article you linked says this on the first line

"Based on an analysis of Gartner Group's recently published estimates on domestic Macintosh sales"

What part of estimates are you having issue with?

As for Europe, some companies including Russia, some don't, some include north Africa, some don't. Like I asked, for the estimates you provided, what are the providing.

I cannot believe your head is so far up Apples arse that you cannot read the article you linked (which I don't know why I am even arguing about it as they have only guessed the numbers) proves Apple doesn't do that well outside the USA. 50% of their sales come from 5% of the worlds population!!!!!

I mentioned Europe as one example. Britian is virutally the only place in Europe with an Apple store
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post #117 of 142
10/5/08 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You my friend are a fool.

The article you linked says this on the first line

"Based on an analysis of Gartner Group's recently published estimates on domestic Macintosh sales"

What part of estimates are you having issue with?

As I said, do your research next time. The estimates are for Q3 2008 only. Other numbers are facts. This is from Apple Q3 2008 Report (2,496,000 vs 2,540,000 is less than 2% difference):

"Apple shipped 2,496,000 Macintosh® computers during the quarter, representing 41 percent unit growth and 43 percent revenue growth over the year-ago quarter. The Company sold 11,011,000 iPods during the quarter, representing 12 percent unit growth and seven percent revenue growth over the year-ago quarter. Quarterly iPhone units sold were 717,000 compared to 270,000 in the year-ago-quarter."
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post #118 of 142
10/5/08 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Vodafone

Choose any of the countries.

Meteor in Ireland will. O2 in Ireland will let you.

Thank you for responding. I've checked Vodafone UK, O2 Ireland and O2 UK. Vodafone does indeed allow you to tether as it is explicitly stated. Good for them and good for its customers; however, I really don't see a free lunch. I may be confused, but Internet access seems quite expensive:

For Pay as you Talk customers, the Mobile Internet package gets you:

For £1 a day you get unlimited data access in the UK only, subject to a fair use limit of 15MB per day (100s of emails and web pages). If you use over 15MB a day then you will be charged at £2/MB, typically 5p per page.

That's like highway robbery. For Pay Monthly customers, you get:

For £1 a day you get unlimited data access in the UK only, subject to a fair use limit of 15MB per day (100s of emails and web pages). If you use over 15MB a day then we may ask you to moderate your usage. If after we have asked you to moderate your usage, you fail to do so, we reserve the right to charge you for the excessive element of your usage at your price plan's standard rate or to suspend or terminate your service in accordance with your airtime and/or price plan terms and conditions.

Is this true? Can't believe it is because I can burn through 15 MB in about 15 minutes let alone day. I'll try to check the bigger bandwidth plans.

For O2 Ireland, data plans are similar to American carriers, you can get a cheap plan or an expensive one that'll let you tether:

Data pricing: Mobile Phones and Broadband

Internet on your Mobile

To access the Internet on your mobile handset you can pay per KB data charges set out in your Pay Monthly plan or you can purchase a Data Add on. The pricing for Data add ons is set out below.

Add on name... Mobile Internet 250MB
Monthly Cost... 7.50
Monthly data Allowance... 250MB
Additional usage... 3c per MB
Mobile Internet 250MB \t

O2 Broadband add ons

You can also use your broadband handset as a modem by adding one of our broadband add ons to your existing voice price plan. Please check your handset manual to ensure your handset is HSDPA compatible and that you have a 3G Sim in your handset.

Add on name... Broadband 1GB \t
Monthly Cost... 15.00
Monthly data Allowance... 1GB
Additional usage... 2c per MB
...

The 1 GB plan price, about $20 is a reasonable price for 1 GB. Like the Mobile Internet plan for about $10, but based on the language above, you can't tether, but no need to bother with a 250 MB limit.

For O2 UK however, not good:

Data Charges

* Unless a data or BlackBerry Bolt On is taken, your tariff will include O2 Web Daily under which data will be charged at £3 per MB up to a maximum of £1 per day (00:00am to 23:59pm). Once you have reached your maximum daily charge of £1, O2 Web Daily allows you unlimited use of Telefónica O2 UK Limited's Edge/GPRS/ 3G networks (as applicable to your handset), for personal internet use via your mobile phone. All usage must be for your private, personal and non-commercial purposes. You may not use your SIM Card:
o in, or connected to, any other device including modems;
o to allow the continuous streaming of any audio / video content, enable Voice over Internet (Voip), P2P or file sharing; or
o in such a way that adversely impacts the service to other O2 customers.


Not sure where we've gotten too here. Some operators let you tether for "free", but data rates seem really pricey, some are like the USA carriers.

Here in the states, there isn't many options like in Europe, and its mostly all or nothing. You can get a data plan with "unlimited" data (greater than 5 GB a month), or broadband/business plan that is unlimited with the ability to tether. Not much in between. But in terms of costs of services, they aren't much different, the infrastructure will have the same costs basically anywhere, with more option in Europe noted. The low amount of data isn't that great however.
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post #119 of 142
10/5/08 at 11:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericposts View Post

I tether without the need to pay an extra anything other than the standard data rates. Next week I will be in Germany with my T-Mobile card. Pre-paid, rechargeable, with data already turned on. No extra fees. Sorry that your current provider is making you pay for services that others give away but they see it as another way to gouge you

What's your standard data rate? What are the limitations of the plan?

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I have no problem with fan loyalty but it seems to be to the point of excessiveness here, but then again you have a point. By the way, the Nokia forums are equally represented as here. By the way, they give away things. Any chance of that happening here?

TANSTAAFL.

And excessive is a vague and subjective term. People at Crackberry.com and Symbian-Freak.com seem no different in their fanaticism to me. They defend the company and the product to the point of self-delusion, but that's what being a fan is about.
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post #120 of 142
10/5/08 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

What's your standard data rate? What are the limitations of the plan?


Unlimited data@ 384 or 512 kb/sec. No limitations. All you can eat.
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