New MacBook case leaks question FireWire's future - Page 7

You're missing the point. The difference in height between 15" and 13" is significant on the aircraft seat back tray. It's not only the height of the LCD but the space that the base absorbs.

The difference is simple to explain: if the person if front of you lowers their seat, and you have a MBP, your work comes to a halt.

I miss my PB G4 12", it was a fantastic travel machine.

Why does Apple make us make hard choices as to what we're willing to give up, what features, functionality, work flow and equipment we're willing to surrender?

Why can't we have robust IO in a small form factor, why must we compromise so much? How can Fujitsu jam 3 USB & a 1394 into a 12.1" form factor at 2.9 lbs but Apple can't get one 1394 & 2 USB into a 13" unit?

Why does innovation now simply mean de-featuring, stripping out functionality?

Rolo, Do you happen to have the brand name and or model name of this adapter? Does anyone have any experience with this adapter? I am really looking for something like this... to use with our school's video podcast studio. We can't afford a Mac Pro right now.. and I'm looking for a method to attach a 3rd firewire camera.. and don't want to saturate that bus. Thanks in advance for any help!

first of all: I don't think I was rude, I never attacked anybody personally, and whenever I was being subjective, I made sure I said that it was "in my opinion".
10% size difference is huge.. it's like the difference between walking 100 miles or 110 miles.

a typical DJ table has a mixer, two record players and two CD players on it, plus a whole bunch of cables, plugs, DI's and converters.
DJ's tend to put the laptop on top of the CD players, and a macBook fits, a macBook pro doesn't.
this isn't just speculation: I work with this almost every day of the week.

also because I work in one of the biggest live clubs here, the musicians (not "my musicians" as you call them) that I meet there could be taken as a good representation of musicians in general because of the sheer variety and numbers of them. and I almost never see a MBP. ever.

and because you don't seem to work with any of the above, but use your own opinion of how others must perceive something as subjective as usable size, based upon your own user experience. I must conclude that you are the one using "subjective perception", while I have tried to reason from an objective observational point of view. (and yes: I did try to be rude here)


there aren't a lot of different important things in the world if your whole life is based upon the use of a laptop with firewire (like with musicians or video editors). taking away FW would feel like they took your limbs away, because suddenly you are left with nothing if you can't use the audio card, external HD or camera anymore. then the laptop is just a gaming console or an internet browser.


now this shared ethernet/firewire port would be the best news I heard today!!!!
and it seems to be plausible as well..


and with this I rest my case.
I just think it's rude (from apple and some users here) to suggest to buy a 10% bigger, 80% more expensive machine for the use of a simple firewire port that was never in the way of anything anyway. most (semi-pro) musicians or independent filmmakers just really can't spare the money.

No FireWire? Are you f***in' kidding me???
Apple would be freakin' INSANE to drop FireWire from the MacBook!

FireWire Needed for:
External Hard Drive
Digital Video Camera
Target Disk Mode
4G iPod (no I'm not kidding!)

No FireWire = No Sale

Mini-DisplayPort. Awesome. The "Pro" will come with adapters for DVI and VGA, $20 each for the regular Macbook.

If Apple is targeting the sub-$1000 PC market adding FW when no iDevice can sync to it any longer and most can't even charge by it, would make sense. If you want FW400, then get the better MB; if you want FW800, then get a MBP.



I'd wager that is Mini-DVI. And I've seen no IEEE evidence of a Mini-DP, which is already pretty small as it is.

Like that would stop Apple.

In the sense that Apple has built their own proprietary video adaptors in the past, outside of the IEEE, then you're right. But the logistics, engineering and rationale for Apple to make a Mini-DP connector that is about the same overall size as DP and looks exactly like a Mini-DVI port makes no sense, IMO.

Exactly. I was looking to get a macbook with firewire even though I had no intention of editing with it. I don't work with tapes anymore, but the hard drive and CF card units I'm using to shoot footage to are firewire based. I wanted one just for portable computing and field offloading, a dedicated gpu wasn't high on my list, I just needed firewire for my portable hds and for the camera's hds.

Apple just screwed me hard. I really didn't want to think about picking up an older model.

The mystery hole, next to [what I presume is] the infra-red port, looks as though it would be about the perfect size for an infra-red remote to slip in there...

and


I love how you think the ability to use a firewire hard drive or a firewire camcorder (all of the tape based models) is a high end need. The 14 year old kid with a canon hv20 has to buy an pro machine now?

Some people will defend anything, there are a shitload of uses for firewire and users using it. Not everyone who is using firewire is trying to "ask for a pro machine for nothing."

You guys are sounding ridiculous.

I think it's a bit alarmist to say that a 14 year old with a Canon HV20 has to buy a pro machine now when no one here has confirmed that Apple will stop including FireWire connectivity on all MacBooks. Can people wait until tomorrow before making broad declarations?

Unlikely to be an infra-red port as its around the side of the machine?? It is possible that the 'taped over port' might be an IR remote storage hole though, maybe the round hole is a release button to pop the remote out (floppy drive button style )

What is with all this preemptive "the sky is falling" niggling? First of all, these are nothing but unsubstantiated rumours. However, some rumours obviously do come true and some rumours some more legitimate than others.

If you believe the rumours that Apple is dropping FW400 because some questionable photos of a 15" MacBook with a Mini-DVI port and no FW400.

You then may want to consider the other rumours that Apple will also be releasing a sub-$1000 MacBook to attract a larger user base as their current US consumer base is over 70%). Now consider that those buying an a sub-$1000 PC notebook have probably never seen, much less used, either a 6-pin FW400 cable unless they had an old iPod when Apple shipped both cables when they first started supporting iTunes on Windows. Apple has to cut costs somewhere to make lower costing Macs feasible so not why get rid of ports that won't be used by the frugal shoppers?

It's quite possible that Apple will forego FW400 on its entire MacBook line, but USB2.0 is supported by a graet deal more hardware and there are various workarounds if that is the case. But at this point, it makes no sense to assume that the "leaked" pictures represent the mid-to high-end MacBooks that we are accustomed to.



I do like the idea of putting the remote in an unused EC/PCMCIA slot, like other vendors do, but making a seperate bay for it seems like a waste of valuable space. Plus, the size is completely off. Not just for the current Apple remote size, but for any remote that would fit well in your hand.

I agree that an IR port needs to be on the front and needs to be much smaller. The current MBA has a very thin, oblong IR receiver.

PS: I have no suggestion as to what that taped area code be.

This is a good point. Most Windows users and potential switchers. Which is over 90% of the computer market does not use FireWire. I would believe a healthy percentage of the Windows market has never used FireWire.

Exactly.

I'd planned on buying one of the new Macbooks (already use an iMac at home), and looked forward to using Final Cut Express on the go. But, without Firewire connections, that would seriously give me pause, since video editing is one of my primary uses for the Mac.

It's just plain dumb to presume that average consumers will never use Firewire, since Apple explicitly markets Final Cut Express (which does not do USB video capture) as a consumer application. I'm just cutting together baby videos to share with friends and family, but I like the extra utility that FCE provides. It would have been nice to transfer some of my FCE projects to a Macbook, and not keep everything tethered to our iMac.

Canon and Sony still sell Mini-DV camcorders, none of which can transfer the video thru a USB link to a Mac. And a Sony DVD camcorder that I used last year also could not transfer the video using the USB link. The video transfer utility included with those camcorders only use Windows. (The slot-loading SuperDrive is also incompatible with the mini DVD discs that most DVD camcorders use, but that's a topic for another time)

And even if I'm willing to shell out another ~$300 or so for a new camcorder, the fact of the matter is that DVD, hard drive, and flash camcorders use a much lower datarate than Mini-DV. Any kind of editing will further degrade an already heavily compressed video signal. Same goes for HDV compared to the AVCHD format (used with DVD, hard drive, and flash-based HD camcorders), which has more limited editing tools available and is much more hardware intensive.

That is hardly a reason not to include it in a MacBook. There are more than a handful of Apple users that rely on Firewire, without respect to Windoze users.

I think people are over stating the case. There are few to no peripherals today that you buy brand new that are FireWire only. In fact its becoming more common to see cheaper peripherals that are USB only. The reason for this is because the vast majority of the computer market does not use FireWire.

And Solpism stated. If you want Apple to lower the price somethings will need to be sacrificed.

Fact, most pro photographers use Macs. Fact, most of them use CF cards, in spite of the interface that the camera itself has. Fact, very damn few of those people don't use CF card readers to transfer their images to their Macs. Fact, external backup drives, cloned or incremental, transfer info faster with a Firewire interface than with a USB interface. The same goes for external optical drives.

What I see here is a bunch of folks that are perfectly willing to forego Firewire because THEY don't use it, and anyone that does be damned. You guys rave on about an eSATA port that doesn't even exist on the iMac or MacPro models yet, much less a laptop model. Don't hold your breath waiting for an eSATA port on the next MacBook, or MacBook Pro.

I didn't ask Apple to lower the price, just give me a machine that serves my needs without paying the premium for a MacBook Pro.

But, in some of Apple's key markets -- e.g., audio and video applications -- the preponderance of Firewire devices is much higher. It doesn't impact me because I use already use my Mini-DV camcorder with an iMac running Final Cut Express. But, it certainly affects my decision to purchase a Macbook to replace my aging Dell laptop. Previously, that decision would have been a no-brainer. But, without the Firewire port, that leaves me with the option of putting off the purchase until I can afford a Macbook Pro or just putting off the purchase indefinitely.

Not to mention, Apple can leverage in-house development to make sure FW800/3200 has an optimized serial bus for the OS. Apple would love to see in-roads into the Military defense complex where FW is used in equipment across all branches of the Military. Apple would prefer to have it's Operating System and servers working as much in the military as possible.

If Apple were smart they could offer a DoD only series of products that use their operating system with top secret military solutions. We could get some smart marketing out with Windows and in with OS X. This is just hypothetical to be sure, but something that would be an option, after Apple extends itself enough into the consumer space to warrant this option.

You're missing the point here. You are assuming that Apple would be doing a "one MacBook case fits all" mentality. If Apple is really going to offer a new notebook model that is several hundred dollars cheaper than the current mid-range MacBook it would have to be a new line of Mac notebooks. To do otherwise would not be good business, as far as I'm concerned.

For example, an $800 Mac notebook would be almost 30% cheaper than the most inexpensive MacBook available now at $1100; and 47% cheaper than the most expensive white or black MacBook without any additional options.

There is a reason why Apple offers both the MacBook and MacBook Pro model types, and I think they have saturated their current US market to a point that warrants a new cheaper model that still offers many of the sought after Mac HW, OS and SW aspects.

Saturated? Then tell me why Apple's laptop market is growing. i do not agree with your assessments, and I must repeat, I did not ask Apple to produce a cheaper MacBook. I never said that I thought Apple should offer a one size fits all machine. Maybe you like crippled machines, I don't, and I'll be damed if I'm going to buy a MacBook Pro just to get Firewire, when I have desktops. I flat do not need a MacBook Pro, why is that so hard to understand? Hell, I want to move forward, not backward, I want the step up in performance over my old G4 Titanium that a MacBook offers, and with Firewire.

I didn't state it this time, but I usually state "getting nearly saturated". How else do you explain a 70% market domination among consumer PCs over $1000? That is why they need to go with a cheaper machine.

A more thorough posting of Apple's possibilities:

•

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...2&postcount=35
If you don't know why Apple's marketshare is growing then there are no facts or stats I can show you that will convince you that the market for expanding well beyond it's previous boundaries.


You didn't, you assumed that if a screnshot of a rumoured pic didn't show FW then Apple must be dropping FW. I made a point that making MacBook a mid-range line and offering a cheaper line with no-FW would be the most advantageous, IMO.


Your first sentence contradicts your latter sentence. Why not buy the machine that best fits your needs. Should an $800/$900 MacBook offer FW3200 and DL-DVI or someone who has no idea what it's for and will probably never use it or would Apple be better off catering its PCs to fit the needs of the majority of its customers? It sounds like you want to have the cheapest Mac possible, but also want all the HW and ports that are found on high-end Macs. That simply isn't going to happen.


If you want a major step up in performance", then buy the very first MacBook from May 2006. If you want FW400, then I suspect you'll have to buy a MacBook that costs more than $1,099.

I don't think that all the firewire yeasayers here are looking for a low-entry notebook with firewire, but more for a small, portable, on-the-road laptop with firewire.
we don't ask for a cheaper laptop with more possibilities, but a laptop at the same price, in the same size, with the same functions would do fine. I just don't want to suddenly have to spend $600 more just to keep firewire.
it feels silly to have a hardware upgrade be a usability downgrade.

I hear what you're saying and feel for you*, but it looks like Apple's goal is to attract the majority of the non-Mac PC notebook buyers, not add a few sales from their current marketbase at a lower profit margin.

In other words, I've read that $750 to $850 is the mean average for non-Mac notebook sales. If Apple can attract even a small percent of these buyers they can add a substantial percentage to their growth. This means that even at a lower profit margin they can still make bank.

It also brings about two more changes:
They will severely cut into the profits and sales of major PC makers like HP and Dell.
They will be able to introduce Macs in countries where the price was considered too high for the average middle class family/student.

Yes that is very true. For this reason I can agree Apple should offer FireWire either on more expensive MacBooks or in some way as an option.

Just throwing out ideas...
That large, rectangle port on the side of the MacBook image could be a proprietary slot that could allow for an EC34 card, 3G card, dual FW400 ports, dual FW800 ports, more USB2.0 ports, etc. In other words, make a cheap notebook and then sell a propriety card to fit the individual's needs.

You have that now, there are cards for the express card slot that offer various ports, BUT, that requires a Macbook Pro!

Yeah, but that port doesn't look like an EC slot to me. It doesn't have the rounded port hole, which seems like a simple, cheap aesthetic addition so I can't help but conclude it's either a fake image or Apple is purposely trying to differentiate the EC port on the MBP and whatever they are using for these extra-cheap Mac notebooks.

Only 17 hours to go.

Sigh

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/duet.php

http://www.presonus.com/products/Det...px?ProductId=4

http://www.roland.com/products/en/FA-66/index.html

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire610.html

All less than $500. The Macbook is perfect for an audio editing computer. Remove
Firewire and what today gets you in the game for $1099 now costs $1999.

The only thing audio people can hope for is a

899/1099/1299 Macbook lineup
1499/1999/2499/2799 Macbook Pro lineup with a 13" Macbook Pro.

Losing FW makes absolutely NO sense and the cynic in me thinks this is going to happen.
One step forward...two steps back is almost an Apple hallmark.

I can see the need for FW for consumer video applications diminishing at new ways to import video from HD cameras are here but the audio landscape is going to see their market hobbled severely. A Macbook Pro is simply not needed for good audio performance. Dropping FW from the Macbook means that people are going to hold on to FW enabled Macbooks and hold out as long as they can.

I don't disagree with your reasons for wanting FW, but I have to ask why the products you linked to above can't be used via USB2.0. Does it need the extra power of FW400? Does the slightly higher sustained data rate make a big enough difference for these devices?

PS: With the MacBook having two USB2.0, one FW400, and zero FW800 ports it does seem like this is an inevitable move. What I hope happens is that: 1) The images are false; 2) Apple makes a sub-MacBook category without FW; 3) Apple keeps FW400 as is; or 4) Apple adds FW800/3200 to MacBooks while including a simple FW800/3200-to-FW400 port adaptor.

There are plenty of USB Audio Interfaces but they generally skew towards the low end. Once you get to a few hundred bucks the hardware vendors seem to prefer FW.

Apple's gotta have a FW enabled notebook for < $1500. I think a lot of complaints will be generated by the need to spend more for FW but spending $2k to get FW is outlandish. The funny thing is both USB and FW were supposed to reduce needed ports. USB via hubs and FW via daisychaining yet that's not quiet how reality has worked out. What a paradox.

This all depends on if there are actually a large number of people who are using the FireWire devices specifically with the MB. I imagine Apple will have done some research to find out.

Loosing FireWire does make sense if few people are actually using it. And if going without it helps Apple lower the price of the lowest price MB.

I don't understand why an audio device needs Firewire. Consumer video cameras are beginning to include USB. Even though I agree it does not work as well as FireWire.

I can answer that. The devices are simply not designed for USB 2.0. All MiniDV cameras transfer video with FireWire. They cannot transfer video over USB, they are not designed that way.

If Apple drops FireWire from a MacBook, that will discourage users. Anyone that claims it won't be missed, doesn't use a MiniDV camera or enjoy the speed benefits of FireWire. Apple always advertised iMovie and video editing for the consumer, and now they may be cutting that feature from a consumer laptop? The claims that the MacBook is a consumer notebook and should not have FireWire are claims from complete retards. FireWire has always been on the iMac, iBook, and MacBooks. It is not a "Pro" feature.

My iPod Classic and iPhone transfer data much slower over USB2 than my prior iPod with FireWire.

I can't help but wonder if this is an artificial choice to make the device look appealing (read: high-end) to potential customers. When FW400 was up against the non-powered 12Mbps USB1.0, I fully understood the reasoning for using FW400; but not anymore. Unless it's FW800, I see no real benefit to using FW400 over USB2.0, except in some very rare cases.

I've even moved a couple external HDDs on two computers to USB2.0 because FW400 on OS X 10.5.x was causing too many wonky issues with Time Machine on one machine and personal file storage on the other.


At least we no longer have RJ-11, Serial, Parallel, or PCMCIA ports clogging up our machines and Apple does tend to be futureforward when it comes to ports so I wouldn't rule out FW as an option on MBs just yet.

Having ExpressCard—which I recall people hating because no one had made cards for it—, FW400, FW800 and USB is a pretty good mix right now. Hopefully the next standard will use the host interface like FW, instead of the host processor. Is FW3200 ready for prime time yet? Will Apple introduce eSATA?

Thanks.


Just to be clear, my argument that a sub-$1000 Mac would be targeting typical non-Mac users who don't use FW and that the current MacBook models would still have FW included.


And it charged a lot faster using FW, too. The new iPhone not allowing for FW charging sure was an annoyance.

Some FW audio peripherals simply doesn't exist in USB format (Apogee Duet, TC Electronics, Focusrite,...).

With good drivers, it's not just "slightly higher sustained data rate", it's day and night, it's stability instead of clicks and pops, and with firewire drives it's the possibility of running easily 32 recorded tracks simulteanously per drive, while USB is not even recommanded for audio playback (multitrack). This is for home-recording, we are not talking about recording studio hardware.

In the audio domain, FW = reliability, stability, power and expandability. USB = playing, personal use, not serious work (without being Pro work).

It would be sad if the 13" MB is loosing its FW port (still there's the possibility of a FW/Ethernet combo port). With 802.11n Wi-Fi, do most people really need Ethernet? You can still add a USB/Ethernet adaptor (from the MBA) if you really need both.

While this has been true in years past, its not so true anymore. DV cameras have begun to use USB ports. Specifically Panasonic and JVC are using USB.

I agree FireWire is better, USB can be used for video.

I kinda agree with that, while I believe MOST Macs should have FW400/800/3200, I wouldn't mind if some models (like the current MBA) don't have FW, especially at a price point that isn't currently used.

Only what seems to be a 13" MacBook and a 15" MacBook (Pro) case have been leaked, maybe there will be more models unveiled tomorrow.