New MacBook case leaks question FireWire's future - Page 2

I don't know what you are getting at here it makes no sense as a retort to my comment.

My point was twofold:

1) MacBooks are cheap entry level systems so to expect them to be used for serious video production is nonsense. They should, like all Mac products be *able* to do video editing, but not jump through any design hoops to do so.

2) Most video cameras in use today and in the last few years have a USB connector or both a USB and Firewire connector. Consumer level cameras in line with the consumer level MacBook that have only firewire and no USB are very rare indeed.

The real downside to not having firewire, is the loss of target disc mode.

But then it's not Apple's fault that after years of promoting FireWire, none of the other big PC companies and camera companies jumped on board. If Apple is phasing out FireWire, it's just a sad but understandable result of windows based PC's not evolving to include it when they could have.

There are entry level Macs, entry level for Apple, but on the overall landscape, Macs are not really entry level computers.

A single connector is hardly a difficult hoop to jump though.


Please, have you actually used them? I have two such camcorders, the USB connector is only for transferring photos, the Firewire connector is only for transferring video. Yes, it's kind of dumb, but I think there are technical limitations. I haven't heard of a "deck control" mode for USB, so the computer can't control the camcorder's deck for capture.


There are already several posts in this thread saying there are working Apple supported alternatives. Including mine.


From what I understand, Apple alienated some of its earlier partners, didn't push to have FW 800 on all machines, and dropped the ball on getting faster versions out. If Intel had put Firewire into their chipset, I don't think this would be a problem, but Apple was too pushy in the late ;90s and Intel backed out. Apple waited so long to update the standard that the shift away from tapes made its use for video less relevant, and high performance was eaten bay eSATA. All the major camera companies did accept Firewire.

I don't think they wanted to do that. I think the problem was that going to 800MHz caused some problems for RFI at the time, I think it's a problem that has been resolved. What Firewire did was add a second 400MHz channel, which pretty much means a new connector. USB didn't have to go that fast for its update.

The top pic was of the current MacBook Pro, yes. The bottom pic was of the new MacBook Pro. Notice the speaker grills? I was contrasting their trackpads.


Yeah, I wasn't arguing that the MB and MBP wouldn't be getting the oversized, MultiTouch trackpad of the Air. It's pretty obvious from all the pics that both will.

I was referencing the ideas being tossed around about a glass trackpad or a glass display that would replace the static trackpad, providing visual feedback, as DED suggested in this article. The pic I posted from the original source shows they'll be using standard static trackpads (though they'll be oversized).

I wouldn't mind seeing an eSata port, and much prefer that over Firewire anyway. I've switched all the editing stations I use to accomodate eSata as it's much faster, and eSata actually allows editing of HDV on an external drive. The main thing for current laptops is needing an ExpressCard with eSata ports, so having it built-in would be great.

But not having a firewire port is confusing. Most camcorders introduced in the past 8 years all use Firewire to download the video from tape. Without Firewire, people will have to buy a Firewire ExpressCard to get the functionality back.

Hopefully the Macbook Pros are a different story.

You don't know what the fuss is about? Then obviously you are not aware of the speed difference between FW 800 and USB 2. That becomes a serious issue with external hard drives, and when using a card reader to download several hundred images as Pro photographers do every day!

Try doing a cloned backup to an external drive using USB 2, and then FW 800. If you can't see the difference, then you're blind. Same for downloading CF cards with a really fast reader like the Sandisk Extreme IV hooked up to FW 800.

No Firewire 800, means no sale for me. I was really hoping that Apple would extend FW 800 to the MacBook, I don't need the features of a MacBook Pro, as long as the Macbook has FW 800.

If Apple forums were so rabid and rampant when the iMac was introduced, we would have been arguing the same points.

What? Why in the world would they not let me use my existing peripherals? I'm not buying that if it doesn't have serial ports.

I don't want to start a flame war here but lot of what you say still makes no sense. If adding the port requires removing another one, then yes... that's a hoop that would ruin the MacBook while making it easier for some tiny portion of folks with FireWire only camcorders.

See, here's where you lose me again.

Yes, I do use them, and as I said way back in my first post, I work in an all Mac environment that uses video and portables and I have to troubleshoot these very issues all day long sometimes. I do know what I am talking about here. You on the other hand appear to be just talking from your limited personal experience, since all your examples reference your own equipment.

By far the majority (not all) of consumer level cameras use USB and can output video over USB. You also mention using FCP on a MacBook and I can tell you authoritatively, based on years of experience that that is an unusual requirement. The majority use by far on the MacBook is a consumer level USB based camera and iMovie. I have yet to meet anyone actually that does professional level video and uses FCP on a MacBook. These people use a MacBook Pro, or the really serious ones use desktops.

The idea that a sub-1000 dollar MacBook needs to be able to connect to a FireWire based camera so the user can use Final Cut Studio on it to produce what ... A TV Show? Is just over the top at best. It would be nice if they cooked dinner as well but that is not what they are designed for.

Also, more video in general is done on an iMac than is ever done on a portable. Portables, especially entry level consumer portables like a MacBook should be capable of doing video, but they are not aimed at the video production market by any means.

You seem to be someone who is maybe just too cheap to buy the right tools for the job?

A couple of you have indicated this:

>> (Originally Posted by JBridges): Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. Nonsense, of
course you can, I have done it many times! <<

Can you please explain HOW? The only way I've ever heard of to turn your MacBook into a target disk was by plugging in a FireWire cable and restarting while holding down the T key. That does not work with USB. So please tell us how you do it with USB?

Thanks.

Booting from a USB drive is different from target disk mode. The replacement for Target Disk Mode is running a version of Migration Assistant over a network.

What? The MacBook didn't have FW 800 in the first place! It's Apple's budget, entry-level laptop. Why were you expecting or anticipating the inclusion of FW 800 at all?

Pro photographers, more often than not, go with the laptop designed with them in mind: the MacBook Pro, which does come with FW 800.

Oh that's HARDLY a replacement. It lets you transfer files alright, but it doesn't let you repair the filesystem or access files directly (as far as I remember). I never used that mode for migration but always for troubleshooting and repairs.

Also, dunno if it has been found/mentioned already but
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver-oxide_battery

Assuming another port must be sacrificed. We don't know that for sure. That said, this is all speculation based on spy photos, this is probably not a discussion worth having based on sketchy information at best.


This is conflating two different issues that I didn't intend to happen. On one issue, I was saying that the market differentiation on the hardware is largely an artificial one, and used FCP as an example. The other, I was saying that the camcorders with both USB and Firewire ports on them that I've read about (plus the two that I have), just don't transfer video over USB.


No. But maybe it's not the price that's in question, but the portability. Or the consumer using a device that's slightly legacy, even if it's only a year old, such as a pocket HDV camcorder. It has a USB port and a firewire port. It will not transfer video over USB, I've not found an HDV camcorder that does.

The MacBook Pro actually feels in many ways lighter than the MacBook because the MBP spreads out its 5.4 lbs. far better than the MB can spread out its 5.0 lbs.

So it really comes down to hardware footprint. But of course, the MB was never designed to serve the pro photographer niche, was it?

am i the only one here that thinks the mini dvi connector is just about the poorest engineered adapter ever?

anything plugged into it virtually gets disconnected just by looking at it!

I've been using the mini dvi connector a great deal since buying my Macbook (1st gen) when they first came out. I have to plug it in every day at work multiple times as well as at home when I want to connect to a 22" LCD. It has never once failed to connect properly, or stay connected even when jostling the machine to move it around the desk for one reason or another. Based on this experience, I feel it's a pretty well engineered adapter. It feels as secure now as the first time I used it.

Firewire 800 is compatible with Firewire 400, so I don't know what the big deal is, it is just a different connector. Personally, Apple should have just gone with Firewire 800 and dropped the Firewire 400 port a long time ago. If they ultimately come out with a faster version of Firewire, maybe they can still use the same Firewire 800 port and use the same concept that USB does. Same connector, just various speed depending on the device that is connected to it.

Sad to see Firewire go, but it had to be done eventually... Apple wants to do small notebooks. Can't have a lot of "legacy" ports. The only problem really is that device designers still add Firewire. With Apple phasing it out, so will they. We might not all be happy about USB winning, but since it has happened, a quick death would be as painless as possible for everyone, I think.

sic transit gloria mundi...

As far as the mystery connector is concerned, my bet's eSATA, as well. It's conveniently located right at the hard disk. eSATA target mode, anyone? The hole could be for a strong screw that holds a hard disk carriage, too.

@ drblank and foobar,

I think you both are off a bit.

The new MacBook lacks any Firewire, 400 or 800.

The MacBook Pro lacks FW 400, but retains FW 800.

So, while the article asserts the "phase out" of Firewire, that's obviously not the case, otherwise Apple would have likely killed off Firewire on all their laptops.

I think we'll see Firewire return to MacBooks in future revisions, but in FW 800 form instead. That really depends on what Apple plans on doing with Firewire from here on out. If they release iPods and iPhones with FW 800 cables, they'd have even faster syncing with those devices. Maybe future iterations of the Air will gain FW 800, or even replace USB2 with it. Who knows?

What do they mean by "redesigned speaker grilles"?

In two years, owning a Mac laptop will require the following accessories for many users-

MiniDV adapter
powered USB hub
Firewire 400/800 adapter
External optical drive
Ethernet/USB adapter
ExpressCard eSATA

I thought Macs were about elegance and simplicity!

Current


vs.

New


The new speaker grilles bordering the keyboard are more finely perforated.

I think we can safely state now that that's not a mini-DVI or a micro-DVI port. Comparing them to USB, it is obvious that their shape and size do not match this new hole.
Since the icon next the cut-out clearly signals a display connector, we can assume that Apple is introducing a completely new type of port.
If Apple still sticks to some flavor of DVI, then they need to support dual-link considering how many people use 30" cinema display with MBP. Shrinking a dual-link DVI port to this tiny size seems to be a challenge.
Rather than using DVI, I would guess Apple is leaving DVI behind and switches to a more modern standard, like HDMI or Display-Port. If that's the case, they will need to provide converter dongles for legacy hardware supporting only DVI/VGA.
Moreover, since the size of these new connectors do not look like either HDMI or Display-Port, I guess they just made up their own miniaturized version of one of them.

They are, so if you think ahead, rather than trying to apply what's current with the future, you'll see these changes make sense. You also need to consider mainstream consumer use, which is Apple's primary focus.


MiniDV adapter - How often does the average computer user actually connect their laptop to an external display? I'll tell you: hardly ever, if ever. To most, it'd be an illogical thing considering they bought the laptop to un-tether from the desk.

powered USB hub - It's funny, most people never plug in more than one USB device at a time into their laptop, even when they have them to spare. Bluetooth eliminates wireless mouse/keyboard USB dongles, so generally people plug in their camera, transfer their pictures, disconnect it, plug in their iPod, sync it, disconnect it.

Firewire 400/800 adapter - How many average computer users have Firewire camcorders and/or cameras? Of those, how many actually use that functionality? Many of these devices come with USB and most people are more familiar with USB.

External optical drive - Why force people to carry around an internal disc drive when they rarely use it for anything but stationary CD importing/burning? Makes far more sense to make it an external option for laptop users so the laptop is as thin and light as possible, while allowing the user to connect an external SuperDrive for occasional CD importing/burning and disconnect when out and about. Discs ain't the future.

Ethernet/USB adapter - Relates to the one above. WiFi is the future. In fact, most laptop users today use WiFi exclusively with their laptop, rarely ever using a wired ethernet connection.

Don't count on it. I think the consensus is that it'll still have integrated graphics, but they'll be nVidia integrated graphics rather than Intel.


That's really not equivalent. The iMac replaced ADB and serial ports with USB. USB is much, much better than either of those.

With the MacBook, it looks like apple is going to remove FireWire 400 and replace it with … nothing.

No FW or other high-speed interface in the new MBs is just wrong. If you have used them you should know.

I've been following several discussions about the FW missing port in the macbooks, and even the macbooks pro's...
I remember the phasing out of the SCSI protocol mainly for external hard drive, back in the 90's, I had the last mac laptop to have it, the G3 wallstreet (only 10 years ago), it didn't had usb or even firewire... despite the big brother deskstop's had them... That was a time when mac stuff was really expensive, but they were workhorses, they could stand almost anything, hours and hours... Nowadays their hardware is so-so, very prone to failure, sometimes big failaure, just like the generic PC world.
Firewire is common language in the mac world, it serves for almost anything that deals with connectivity, for connecting computers in target mode, for external hard drives, WERE THE DATA SPEED IS ESSENTIAL, BE IT VIDEO, AUDIO or even DATA... , for VIDEO CAPTURE, or AUDIO, because of the nature of the protocol, peer-to-peer, not crappy and bad written protocols for consumer market like the USB, were speed usually is secondary, better for connecting mouses and printers, the initially aim of the protocol...

I'm in the market for a new laptop, my PBG4/867 is dying, after 6 years of very good work,
I was looking to the macbook because it's cheaper and has everything I need, and the firewire is a main reason for me, I'm work in music and sound, so my HD's are FW as my Audio interface, USB doesn't cut here, to slow for multi-tracking, or any thing decent... It doesn't work for Video either, at least for capture, since this new HD cameras are bullshit, so many codec formats that they are useless (you have to convert from multiple formats for a working one to just start cutting video) only week-end parents use them...
If this is true next 14 October, I'll be buying a white Macbook (current generation) or even a macbook pro (if the price is right) or go linux in the generic PC world, and that hurts after all this years...

Mac's became fashion consumer products and not tools for creative work,
CS

You're ignoring my point. Most people don't know FW 400 has an advantage over USB 2.0. Many probably wouldn't notice a difference if they actually tried out the FW 400 cable on their camera, rather than USB. FW 800 is a different story, but MacBooks have never featured FW 800 because they're built with the average computer user in mind, not the pros. Of course, Apple could always implement FW 800 in future MacBooks, just as they dropped FW 800 in the original MacBook Pros and then brought it back in the next revision.

Is apple really not going to include HDMI / Displaylink in favor of micro-DVI?? Am I taking crazy-pills or am I the only person that is sick and tired of Apple isolating themselves by implementing proprietary bullsh*t into all of their products.. Seriously though, they should have learned their lesson after the "Apple Display Connector." Moreover, when they create all this crap they don't even license it to third parties (i.e. the Magsafe connector--great idea and incredibly useful but no one else aside from Apple can create accessories for it).

Moreover, the choice to include a Firewire 800 port--especially over Firewire 400--is mindboggling. Firewire 800 is a failed standard that has not been adopted by anyone whereas eSata has a nearly entirely uncrippled throughput (if crippled at all?) and is 100X better than Firewire 800 in every sense (the port is even thinner making it more aesthetically economical.) Mind you this is coming from someone who owns an external Firewire 800 hard drive. When will Apple learn?

You may just ignore this post, since according a number of people here I don't exist anyway. This post is merely a figment of your imagination.

I edit video and animation professionally for a national cable network using a MacBook and a Firewire-only HDV camera. I run Final Cut Studio on it and I also connect to an external monitor when I'm in the office. I have Firewire external drives.

Was the MacBook "designed" to do any of this? It CAN, so it doesn't matter. Apple's entry-level notebook has always been generally up-to-par as far as capability (with sacrifices for speed, granted). But the fact is, while current sales may favor the (garbage) MPEG-2 video camera, millions more have Firewire-only DV cameras that will be SOL.

Consider the Prosumer market, that is a perfect target audience for the MacBook. If a prosumer needs Firewire but can't afford a full-blown MBP, what are they to do? Historically a MacBook would be up to the task, but not anymore. So our prosumer will probably either check eBay for older MacBooks or will have to get a PC notebook. I don't understand why Apple would do this, when they've always sort of reached out to that prosumer market, and tried to give consumers the opportunity to become prosumers on the existing hardware. I think Apple is being too narrow with its target audience.

The fact is, whether you choose to see it this way or not, Apple is crippling its entry-level notebook line. Despite the efforts of the Thurston Howells on this forum, the iBook/MacBook has always been capable at doing these things, and Apple arbitrarily removing Firewire, while maybe forward-thinking in the longest terms, is seriously short-sighted.

This is especially true with the economy like it is, people are not going to buy a new MPEG-2 camcorder to fit with their new MacBook. To make people jump through hoops (or just buy new ones) to just be able to use their stuff seems very Microsoft-like. What got me to Switch™ was Apple's philosophy of making the computer "just work".

But now Firewire is virtually Abandonware, and it seems Apple is perhaps too far ahead of the curve for its own good.

wobegon, if the thing I listed are so unneccessary, why are there so many people lamenting their exclusion from new models? Maybe you don't but plenty of other people do, and for many different reasons.

For example, everyone mentions camcorders and hard drives in the Firewire discussion, but what about Pro Audio interfaces? Almost all use Firewire, few use USB. And musicians are a significant part of Apple's base. Unless the price gap is signifcantly narrowed between the MB and MBP, this could be a big issue.

I know a lot of people who use laptops with an external display. It's not about being freed from the desktop. 22" looks much better than 13" doesn't it?

Optical disks aren't going to disappear. I don't doubt their importance will diminish, but definitely not disappear. DVDs are still a great way to exchange large amounts of data. Movies will primarily be played on disks for at least a few more years, if not more. Lots of data is backed up on disks. Etc...

As for USB, I find it a lot easier to just leave stuff plugged in rather than playing musical chairs with your ports, so I say the more the better! I'm sure I'm not alone.

I agree. For example, I bought a MBP because the MB had a few glaring issues - glossy display, no ExpressCard, integrated graphics. I realize now that I don't need all of the features of this $2000 laptop, but the problem is that, since I need a few of the things offered by the MBP, I am stuck. I too am considering a generic PC with linux for my next computer.

Apple is going after the larger consumer market, but is neglecting the powerusers that are the dedicated Apple buyers. This strategy may turn out well, but it will definitely leave a bad taste in many people's mouths...

fft, don't forget about Apple Refurbished - great deals on MBPs.

I'm puzzled by some of Apple's choices for ports:

• Dropping Firewire means no target disk. This was useful since the hard drive can't be removed easily...
• Two USB 2.0 ports: Unacceptably anemic. Doubly so without Firewire.
• They went with MiniDVI instead of HDMI? HDMI is thin and carries the same DVI signal over it so you can still use a monitor with a dongle.

Thoughts on the mystery port get their own list:

• Not HDMI, or Apple would have nixed the redundant miniDVI port
• Too thick for a SIM card: Apple would probably hide that behind the battery
• Possibly too thin for eSATA/USB combo, but wide enough for eSATA only.

I wouldn't bet on eSATA target disk: you'd need a custom ASIC to swap the internal connection between the chipset and the hard drive. Or a totally custom chipset.

Many people here have stated this notion and I simply don't buy it. I believe it's mini-DVI and here's why.

Looking at the pictures, everyone in agreement with you, I think, is misinterpreting what they're seeing. The cutouts we're looking at are going to fit into an enclosure, just like the MacBook Air. The mini-DVI port only appears smaller than normal because the housing around it isn't in the pictures.

Why would Apple introduce an entirely new video out port that looks so similar to the current mini-DVI port, but is just that much smaller to require everyone to buy new adapters? When they released the Air, they introduced a new micro-DVI port that looks markedly different from the mini-DVI and dual link DVI ports of the MacBook and MacBook Pro, respectively.

Look at the photo below.


Notice all the space around the actual port?

Well, phasing out means killing off, just more slowly. They tried it before, when they removed the FW800 port in the original MBP. There was a large outcry, so now they're trying to do it from the other direction.


I think you're really clinging to FW... I love FW as much as the next guy, but it should be clear that it's lost the war against USB. Even Apple knows it, and I think it's pretty clear what their future intentions for Firewire are. The new MBP will be the only Firewire laptop Apple has left, after all. There's no indication or reason that they should turn 180° on this. It's time to move on.

By the way, the only reason USB 2.0 has won is that the damn ports are compatible. Computer manufacturers are much more eagier to upgrade than to add. Space is precious, especially on notebooks. And with everything they add, people start expecting some continuity. (see Firewire on Apple). USB 2 required little commitment.

Like the difference between a landline and a cellphone, so is the signal quality by Ethernet superior to Wi-Fi. If Apple leaves Ethernet, I think I might have to leave Apple, which is one of the worst things imaginable.

You won't miss it if you don't buy a new computer.

Ethernet?

Which is what I will do. I was ready to buy a new Macbook mostly for the metal construction and the new graphics, but if Apple indeed drops FW, then I will hold off. In fact I may never again buy an Apple portable at the MB price range if it has not something more than just two USB ports for high-speed data transfer.

Because people posting here do not represent the mainstream computer user majority. Joe Sixpack doesn't get on forums and discuss this stuff. We represent the minority of those "in the know."


Pro Audio? For the average computer user?


Ok...and the new MacBook still retains its mini-DVI port. What's your point?


Sorry, but discs will disappear and already are when it comes to storing and transferring data between computers. Of course...the new MacBooks (and MacBook Pros) still have their internal SuperDrives, so I don't get what you're complaining about. Most people don't watch DVDs on tiny 13" (or even 15"-17") laptop screens, they have TVs for that.


I'm sure you're not, but you're ignoring the perspective of the casual computer user, who often only plugs one thing in at a time and then unplugs it to make way for something else. I consider myself a pretty proficient computer user and I find myself doing the same thing sometimes on my three year old 15" PowerBook G4. Also, many people with laptops don't leave them on the desk with an iPod dock, digital camera, printer, and wired mouse connected to them. They take them from the bedroom, to the living room, to the patio, to the coffee shop, to a friend's house, you get the picture.

But again...the MacBook (and MacBook Pro) appears to retain the two USB 2.0 ports it's always had.

Your imagined Doomsday is just that and you also are completely leaving out the possibility for Apple to reinstate FW 800 (which the MacBook has never had) in future revisions of the MacBook, just as Apple reinstated FW 800 after initially removing it when they introduced the first 15" MacBook Pro. Exhale!