Apple announces new 13-inch MacBook - Page 11

That computer isn't the Macbook's competition. The VAIO SR and XPS M1310 are, and neither can be had with equivalent features for less. In fact, they have inferior features, and in the case of the Sony, cost $250 more. You aren't seriously comparing a heavy 15" notebook to a subnotebook sized 13", are you?

And you, just like the other guy I just responded to are missing the point. Some of us want the Macbook because of the size of the computer. I don't want to carry around a 5.5lb notebook in my briefcase. There just isn't enough room for that and all the paperwork I carry. The Macbook Pro is not an option at any cost. I passed on the Air for the same reason in January, hoping that they would make the Macbook smaller. I would be willing to pay $2000 just to get Firewire on a computer this size, but they won't let me.

It's patently absurd. Almost as absurd as you asserting that video camera transfer isn't a consumer activity. So I guess that means that iMovie is used by Spielberg, right?

Then you ought to be looking at clearance versions of the former $1299 MacBook.

Also, if space is an issue for you, why did you pass on the Air? It sounds to me like you should have an Air as your portable device and an iMac base station for your FireWire needs.


I doubt Steven Spielberg uses FireWire to transfer footage from his production cameras. And as pointed earlier in the thread, there are plenty of consumer cameras with USB. FireWire is being dislodged from this market.

You have three options: get a MacBook Pro (and a larger bag), get a previous model MacBook, or get new equipment which uses USB and not FireWire.

Apple Giveth:

** Aluminum Casing
** LED Backlit Displays
** Larger Multitouch Glass Trackpads
** Backlit Keyboards
** WAY better graphics
** Half Pound Lighter
** .13" Thinner
** Removeable Hard Drives

Apple Taketh:

** FireWire

.....and suddenly theyre the worst people in the world. Either man up the $400 for the Pro or upgrade your devices to USB compatible ones. I dont know what to tell ya. They did their best to make an incredible 13" MacBook, and I think they accomplished that. For me personally what they added and improved far outweighs FireWire, I dont see how for the majority of people this would be any different. This is by far THE best general consumer laptop on the market...and Im thinking of replacing my Santa Rosa MBP with the $1599 model....upgrading it to 320GB HD & 4GB RAM.....$1724.00 would be the total (With education discounts).

I will agree that a lot of consumers don't care about firewire and to a lesser degree expresscard, but card readers and HDMI I have to disagree. I sold computers for a while and when I showed off all the ports that a specific laptop had the vast majority of customers didn't have a clue what firewire was for and only a handful knew what an expresscard slot was good for, but all except the most clueless customers knew what a card reader was useful for and a lot of customers even if they didn't know what an HDMI port looked like or what it was called were interested in being capable of hooking their laptop up to a television. Not all televisions have VGA, but even the cheap no name brand televisions have HDMI.

Considering the minute cost of a card reader(<$5) I am surprised Apple doesn't include one on their Macbook even if 90%+ of people didn't ever use them, which we know is being a little overzealous. Considering that Apple makes a good profit margin alienating even 10% of your potential market seems silly. Considering that Apple prides themselves on the digital lifestyle, you would think that a built in card reader for at least Secure Digital (by far the most popular memory card format) would be obvious, but after all these years it seems Steve Jobs is more concerned about marring the pretty Macbook with additional holes then about making his Macbook desirable for users looking for a notebook designed for the "digital lifestyle."

The exclusion of expresscard I find a little questionable considering that there are sub $500 notebooks that contain expresscard. If it were so expensive to include and so few people used it I would think that expresscard wouldn't be included in cheap laptops with razorthin margins. If excluding expresscard really cost more to include then the increase in sales it brought to customers then I imagine most cheap notebook would exclude it, but except for the cheap netbooks I don't see anybody who excludes expresscard slots on their machines.

Agree

I've read where some people are now complaining that there isn't enough differentiation between the Macbook and the Macbook Pro...well there ya go, Firewire is one of the things that separates the product lines.

Firewire is great, I like having it, but the only time I've ever used it was using the Migration Assistant. I use USB everyday.

If you want to have all the new goodies like better graphics, and still want it at the consumer price point, then you are going to have a tradeoff somewhere else. Not too difficult a concept now is it folks?

Well, the HDDs were always removable, but your point remains true. The new MB IS appropriately priced.

However, what you and I will simply not be able to appreciate is the missing FW and the price tags because we can afford the asking prices, and we don't care about FW.

Those who are griping about the price were hoping for an updated MB at $999, and some folks really do need FW. Their complaints are valid.

The whining that ISN'T valid is the suggestion that the new MB is overpriced. It isn't.

We can look at this way. I'm sure Apple weighs the features it supports based on research of what most people will actually make common use of. Growth of Apple's notebooks have outpaced the industry for the past two years. None of them have ever come with card readers. Consumers have the choice of plugging a camera directly into the computer with USB or buying a USB card reader if they choose. A large number of the consumer market seem satisfied with this option.

HDMI is really a television display format and not really a computer display format. DVI and Display Port are computer display formats that support HDMI with no problem.

Here is an interesting snippet from www.ign.com (which is a PC gaming site and is predominately Windoze and PC oriented):

"The new 13" MacBook has an incredibly improved hardware and features set and is irresistibly priced at $1,299, and the new 15" MacBook Pro has some pretty solid updates as well."

I'm glad that even IGN knows the market, unlike some whiners in this thread, digging up low-end 15" PC laptops priced at $999 and trying to convince people that the new MB is overpriced for its features.

In my personal experience, TDM while neat isn't always as valuable as one thinks. I remember trying to use TDM on an old PowerMac and the drive didn't mount properly when I hooked up it up to my Mac Mini. I ended up pulling the HDD and connecting it to my Mac Mini through a USB to ATA adapter and using Disc Warrior to repair the permissions on the drive. On any of the Intel Macs I could have merely hooked up my external USB DVD drive and booted off it. Everybody who talking about Macs not booting off of USB need to get with the times.

The only situation I can see where TDM would really save you any time is if your optical drive won't boot, but your motherboard still allowed TDM. That seems like a slightly contrived situation. If your computer works properly you can always transfer information via crossover cable via Gigabit ethernet. Even if your MacOS install is corrupted you can use a linux live disc to transfer data off a corrupted OSX installation. I don't question that TDM can be useful, but I hardly find it a huge loss for troubleshooting.

True, but not everyone finds an SSD worth the cost either, but Apple included a CTO option for Blu-Ray. Why couldn't they do the exact same thing with Blu-Ray they did with SSDs on the MacBook?

How many of the people defending lack of Firewire in the MacBook actually believe what they are saying? If Apple had continued to offer Firewire in the MacBook, these same people would be praising Apple because:

"Firewire is so superior to USB"

"MacBook offers high end features not found on bargain basement laptops"

"Target Disk Mode make Macs so much superior to PCs"

But now that Apple dropped Firewire, these same people will just say "Who needs it anyway?"

No matter what Apple does, the Apple defenders will be right there to rationalize and defend them. If Apple completely changes direction, the Apple defenders will also change their story and contradict themselves right along with Apple. Instead of flip-flopping back and forth, why don't you stand by your beliefs?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make a cell phone.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Who needs automatic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the memory yourself.

Who needs preemptive multitasking or memory protection since Macs never crash?

The Macbook is not overpriced at $1499. education price. I bought the first one sold by my local Apple Store on Oct. 15. All I can say is it is a spectacular machine!

I've said I would prefer Apple keep Firewire on its current machines until USB 3 is viable.

At the same time I don't think its as crazy for them to take off of the MacBook as people here think. Apple still offers Firewire on 4 of its 6 computers. I think you guys are freaking out because this is a clear sign Firewire is falling into obscurity.

Apple could have released a notebook without a screen and some here would be falling all over themselves to justify it. The computer, like the iPhone, is lacking extremely basic features seen everywhere else that cost pennies on the dollar to implement.

And what is the new MB "lacking"? Even if FW is indeed an "extremely basic feature," like you claim, this is still only a single feature missing.

My guess is that OS X lacks HDCP, and Apple is either hesitant about building that into OS X, or it's such a large job that it's best implemented into Snow Leopard rather than released as a Leopard patch.

Either way, you can buy HD content through iTunes. If you're dead set on watching HD shows/movies on a notebook, there you go.

Oh, I'm not takin' that bet. If the Mac mini actually gets updated instead of just discontinued, it will definitely lose its Firewire port. The iMac might keep one FW800 port, though.

Here in France, with the EU 'tax', the new Macbooks, and indeed Macbook Pros do *not* look like a good deal at all :/

For me, the Alu is a deal breaker, as it kills wireless reception, and overall, the specs in comparison to other brands are just not up to much for the price Apple consumers are expected to pay. I need a replacement machine for 2 Macbook Pros I have, both of which are on their last legs, and for the first time in 20+ years, I am now 90% sure they will not be Apple machines. I hung on to see what was announced, but for me it is too little, too late.

I had high hopes, but this round of updates feels waaaaaay too late. Maybe if they were announced 4 or 5 months ago, yes, but now, other manufacturers have caught up spec wise, and in France reduced priced to levels vastly below Apple, for effectively the same tech...

As much as I *love* OS X, I can't justify 500Euro+ just to use it

I agree. Developing B-R software that runs and burns the media is not as easy as some people think. It's not like Apple can just sell the drives and "bang, there it is!"

Yet another poster who needs to do his research before whining.

The aluminum MBP has always had excellent wi-fi range. The plastic MB's range is not that much superior. If for you personally, even a tiny bit worse range is a "deal breaker," then that's your call, but alu does not "kill wireless reception."

Take a look at other 13" laptops on the market before making the false statement that the "specs in comparison" are inferior --and I said THIRTEEN inch laptops.

Just beautiful.

Honestly, I'm beginning to think there are Apple plants in this forum with some of the irrational fanboyism.

Another poster who prefers to draw sweeping generalisations about another poster... I really do pity people like yourself who have to apologise and evangelise everything Apple does and every new product they release, without looking at the facts. /sigh

For reference, I have had through my business/work, at one time or another, pretty much one of every model laptop Apple have made. I currently have *infront* of me... MBP 2.1ghz, MBP 1.83ghz, Powerbook G4, iBook G4 1ghz, 2.1ghz Macbook, Lenovo Thinkpad T61p, Acer Aspire 5920, EeePC 901.

If the reception on the MPB is *SO* good as you point out, why is it that the 2 I have here are the only ones that do not pick up my Wireless Network on the 3rd floor of my office? The Powerbook G4 does also not pick up the signal. All the others have either full or 3/4 reception... MBPs? Nada, nothing, zip. Great reception clearly. For me, I work mainly on the 3rd floor, so if I can't get the internet with the machines, yes, it is a deal breaker.

As for prices, funnily enough, I have spent the last 6 weeks looking at machines, prices, and making price/cost/benefit analysis. I draw you to;

For reference, the base model Macbook Alu goes for 1200Euro.

Dell - XPS 1330

Processeur Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T8100 (2,10 GHz, mémoire cache L2 de 3 Mo, FSB 800 MHz)
Windows Vista® Ãdition Familiale Premium SP1 authentique - Français
Ecran WXGA (1280x800) 13,3 pouces CCFL (220 nits) avec TrueLife™
nVidia® GeForce® 8400M GS de 128 Mo
4096 Mo de mémoire bicanale SDRAM DDR2 667 MHz [2x2048]
Disque dur SATA de 320 Go (5400 tpm)
Lecteur fin 8x DVD+/-RW Ã* chargement par fente, logiciel compris

This is the 'top of the line' model here in France. It sells for 849 Euro! yes some of the specs are worse than the MB, but some of them far exceed it. But it is nearly 400Euro cheaper!

Just in the local supermarkets you have these machines that are either 12" or 13.3", and processor and RAM wise are on a par with the Macbook. I just got a paper through the door which had the following 2 listed;

PACKARD BELL - EasyNote BG45-P-071FR - 499 Euro!
ACER - Aspire 2920-6A3G32Mi - 699Euro

Yes they are 12", but have as good a processor, more RAM, and vastly more HDD as standard than the MB. That is without even trying. If I go to a proper computer store, there are at least 5 other 13" (or close) machines that are better value than the new MB Alu. For the Macbook Alu, in France, I stand by my point. It is not great value for money, and that the specs are not as great as they should have been, in fact needed to be, should Apple justify the price point in Euros.

for those who have been reading my posts and think that I was complaning about the lack of firewire on a cheap laptop:
that is not the case.. if they would have made a 13" macBook (pro) with firewire at $1600, I would have been happy.
I really don't want to go BIG.

and then the argument that some fanboys give that the materials are more expensive, so they had to cut something away:
firewire is relatively cheap to add into the case, AND.. they already did cut something away: the "the low entry macBook".
just last week we had three macBooks: $1100, $1300, $1500
this week we only have the two more expensive options: $1300 and $1600 (oh and a clearance sale of old plastic ones)
they already increased the prices, so why cut down on this cheap function and take away a big part of it's functionality?

we have been reading about the new 17" macBook pro coming early next year, apple would do good if they make the line up:

$1200 13" 2.0 macBook (no firewire)
$1400 13" 2.4 macBook (no firewire)
$1700 13" 1.6 macBook air (no ports whatsoever)
$2500 13" 1.8 macBook air (SSD drive)
$1600 13" 2.3 macBook pro (incl firewire 400)
$1900 15" 2.4 macBook pro (incl firewire 400)
$2400 15" 2.5 macBook pro (incl firewire 800)
$2700 17" 2.6 macBook pro (incl firewire 800)

(I'm only leaving the no firewire options in because I don't think apple wants to lose face over this, so they'd rather offer an addition 13" pro model than admit that they were wrong to take it out.. and if that means we also get the better graphics option in a 13", you really won't hear me complain again)


edit: and don't get hung up over the prices I stated, they might be off by 100-200..
and if they need the room: I can see the 13" pro model losing the ethernet port with an option to buy a USB or firewire to ethernet converter plug for only $30

Like a few others have said, Apple is the one who fostered the whole FireWire ecosystem. They developed the technology, promoted it in their stores, featured it on most of the peripherals they sold, and importantly based their consumer-oriented iLife software around usage of FW peripherals.

That they are eliminating the ports is not the key issue. Instead, they've provided no possible replacement technology to allow people to use the equipment that they specifically promoted. For years, Apple made the claim that buying a Mac was the way to make home movies and they offered the one-stop-shop for doing so (computer, software, peripherals... all able to work in concert). This is a distinctly different scenario than floppy drives, Apple Desktop Bus, printer ports, etc. None of those were designed to allow a Mac to do things that other computers couldn't also easily do.

Ironically, about every Windows machine still has FW compatibility of some type or another either by a 1394 port, Cardbus/ExpressCard slot, or even the converter cable (XP only so far). Not one of those options is possible with the new MacBook.

Frankly, I think of myself as an Apple apologist of some sort (well, I've been using them for 20 years) but this is the first time that I can recall Apple abandoning a technology that they have considered superior without offering any type of backward solution.

This sums up well the situation. My hope is that after enough pressure (read: drop in sales) Apple may re-consider this decision and add in a later revision FW 800 at least in the high end MB.

Thing is, this example shows how HP muddies the water while Apple is too keen to cut features.

No computer needs Firewire, a card reader and an Expresscard slot. That's overkill.

Just put the EC34 slot on, and you can add Firewire, card readers and more to your heart's delight.

Apple, on the other hand, ships a consumer laptop without the ability to add any of the above. What?


For many people, having to walk around with a 15" laptop instead of the 13" is a downgrade.


Everyone knew that FW was in a transition to 3200 and that it would be in competition with USB 3 in late 2009/early 2010. As I've said, if Apple - who has chaired the move to 3200 - sees no future for Firewire, they should say so and prepare everyone to move to something else.

Of course, only noobs use USB2 for hard drives. So if Firewire goes, we need eSata.


Personally, this debacle has changed my view of the whole laptop idea. I may pick up one of those $599. PC laptops in Costco and throw the funds saved into my new Mac Pro in 2009.

My current portable doesn't get a real workout, though I like the idea that I have access to my full suite of apps when I'm on the road. If we're going to abandon the illusion that laptops are for real AV and design work away from the office, why am I paying $700. more to check email, browse the web and play tunes?

Can I get a memory upgrade on a new MacBook when I buy it at the Apple Store or do I have to order online to make that happen?

The Apple store will install upgrade RAM for you, but it will cost more than a BTO model from their online store as you will pay full boat for the new RAM (and be left with one or two sticks of RAM in your pocket).

That's what I figured. I couldn't believe the BTO RAM upgrade price was lower than what I can get from a 3rd party. I guess they give you a good deal on RAM upgrade when you buy the thing and then bend you over a couch if you buy it from Apple after the fact.

On another note, this thread contains info from a few people who have actually touched these new MacBooks. Anyone NOT like the new trackpad? I'm curious most about that.

exactly.

Could be due to currency fluctuations. Would you be fair enough about this to check to see how the price on the Dell has changed in the same time frame, and report back to us?

From what I understand, the new Apple view of consumer notebooks is synonym to absolute minimalism; even if this may harm the overall Mac experience, as it has been so many times pointed out in this thread.

But to be fair, having seen the Macbook video and the AI photos here, I have to say that the new MB is a really impressive piece of hardware. The design has just reached a new level.

Damn it, thank you. Finally someone gets it.

My question to others is this:

Does not having firewire make the machine better and more attractive to you?

With the way you all go on and on about it, defending it against everyone who has been using it for years and people who wanted it that are non-professionals you'd think that you're actually happy it's gone.

Were you sitting there thinking "f*** if apple takes firewire off the macbook I'll finally buy one," because all these defendants are treating it like a small victory.

Did it make the computer cheaper?
Lighter?
Better?

If someone who likes the new macbook and intends to get it could explain to me how their computer has been strengthened by the lack of firewire, I am all ears.

Actually apple has said quite a few times that built in ethernet isn't a big deal, which is why they've been content selling the usb->ethernet dongle for the air. The could simply have dropped it in the box for the macbook.

Besides how much longer do you think the building you're teaching at will go without wifi before they fix the issues? Not that long. In the 2006/07 school year there were quite a few building in my U that didn't have wifi or it wasn't working and now in the 2008/09 year all those buildings have it.

The ethernet problem is a short term problem that already has a solution, the firewire removal is a permanent problem that apple has not given us a solution for.

Apple and even some of their fanboys on this forum like to say everything is wireless and wired standards are going the way of the Dodo, but the reality is a lot of people would beg to differ. The necessity for wired connections is becoming less common as wireless technologies move to higher bandwidths and better ranges, but there are some circumstances where wireless technologies just aren't practical(eg. large amounts of bandwidth). The lack of the EC34 slot seems rather odd insofar as that no matter how good you design a laptop invariably some users are going to want one more xyz port than was included. Instead of limiting the end users possibilities Apple ought to break down and include the EC34 slot so that the users can have eSATA , FW400/800, or some older port for an older application(RS232, parallel, etc.) if they want it.

People claim that Apple has to do this to prevent the cannibalization of the MBP sales, but even without the Expresscard/34 advantage the Macbook Pro has plenty of advantages over the Macbook such as a dramatically better graphics card, FW800, and a better resolution even for the 15" model. I think moving to the Geforce 9400 on the MB will do more to hurt the sales of the MBP then had they included Expresscard in the MB. Even Steve Jobs outright said that the graphics gap between the MB & MBP has dropped dramatically. That is practically an invitation for people to second guess whether they really need to buy the more profitable MBP. The old Intel graphics were so underpowered that a lot of games couldn't run well or in some cases at all despite the fact that the MB had a fairly good mobile processor.


Now there was somewhere where I thought Apple should have been ahead of the curve(a trailblazer in the industry). eSATA isn't some stillborn standard. I am shocked nobody asked about it in the Q&A. I can go to any Fry's and they will sell hundreds of external HDDs with eSATA every weekend. Even less specialized stores like Staples or Costco sell external drive that include eSATA. The potential number of people buying a Macbook that could immediately take advantage of the eSATA port is probably in the millions, which is more than I can say about Displayport. Furthermore, Apple could have integrated Target Disk mode with eSATA. ArsTechnica reported that Apple submitted a patent application for TDM through eSATA. Maybe it wasn't ready for primetime yet, but if it is ready that would have been a rational port to put in the place of the FW400 port. Displayport on the other hand, I am not so sure about.

How many monitors are there with Displayport? The Dell 2408 and their 3008 and this new Apple 24" LED display whenever it ships. Until you get past single link DVI where Displayport is supposed to provide better bandwidth I don't see the benefit of the move for Apple's customers. I never heard anyone complain that the Macbook didn't support resolutions beyond 1920x1200. The move at least on the Macbook seems slightly self serving insofar as AFAIK Apple is the only company selling mini-Displayport adapters whereas I can name at least two companies selling the Mini-DVI adapters that the old Macbook used(one for about half off the Apple adapter). Hopefully, Mini-Displayport catches on in some of the subcompacts so that Mini-DP cables and adapters are popular(cheaper than Apple) or at the very least someone other than Apple sees the profit potential and sells their own Mini-DP cables and adapters. Except for the pro market where resolutions beyond 1920x1200 exist I don't see a lot of demand for Displayport. For a laptop largely aimed at the consumer market DP seems a little overkill.

Moving and moved are two entirely different things. You must not work in video because you dont' understand how important this is. Panasonic is currently the only manufacturer with a prosumer camera that doesn't have firewire, and it's limted to model you posted. Sony for example just announced 3 new firewire based prosumer units. What will happen in 5 years should not reflect the state of computers now.

SSD fits into the MB the way it is. For Blu-ray Apple would have to license more DRM for OS X and could not have made the MB as thin as it is now.


Are you seriously equating the need of FireWire to the need of a screen.

If those basic features were really needed the MB nor the iPhone would sell as well as they do.



Equating the need for FireWire to the need of a screen is more rational?

Someone asked me if I use FireWire. I listed my current peripherals. Out of 8 only 2 have FireWire. Those two offer USB as an option. Its a fact that you wish to ignore, most of the computer market only uses USB. In realizing this you call irrational.



This notebook isn't the same as the MacBook in most cases. It uses the santa rosa chipset, less cache, slower RAM, CCFL instead of LED screen. The only place this notebook is better than the MacBook is the GPU.



Not true the MBA has a mini DisplayPort, USB port, and audio port.


This is overstating the current situation. Nearly all peripherals offer another option other than FireWire. The list of USB only devices is much higher than any that even offer FireWire as an option.


90% of the PC market does not use FireWire. Most of the PC's that offer FireWire are using the mini 4 pin variant which is nearly useless.



The overwhelming majority of the PC market uses USB for hard drives. There is no such thing as a flash drive for FireWire.



You guys are taking a George Bush "with us or against us" stance on this, without taking into account the reality of the computer market.

I would rather FireWire won over USB. But this is not the reality. The overwhelming majority of the computer market uses USB - the overwhelming majority of computer peripherals are made to interface through USB. That is the reality.


For most people buying the MacBook it won't matter because they've never used FireWire and never will. Or because most peripherals are either USB only or include USB along with FireWire.

Ultimately this strengthens Apple because it forces anyone who wants to use FireWire will have to buy the more expensive machine.

That's not true pretty much any 599 and up consumer laptop has 4-pin firewire 400 on it. Unless you're talking about netbooks you must not have looked at other manufacturers.

Perhaps, Blu-Ray playback will be a new exclusive feature of iDVD in Snow Leopard and we will see a CTO for Blu-Ray on the Mac Pro and the Mac Pro in January, but the argument that you can buy HD content through iTunes I find a really lame canard. The "HD" iTunes movies are only 720p as opposed to 1080p and for all the talk about how great the selection of films are I even after ~2 years since they started selling videos I feel underwhelmed. There are countless films that are top sellers in Bluray on Amazon that aren't even an option on iTunes. I couldn't find any hard numbers that are recent on the number of films on iTunes, but if iTunes has more options than Blu-ray it isn't by a lot and at least in my subjective judgement the iTunes collection of films leaves a lot to be desired.