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A closer look at Apple's move to NVIDIA chipsets, DisplayPort - Page 2

post #41 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

I wonder if there are more people using laptops in combination with HDMI-based TVs, or in combination with DVI-based computer monitors?

I'm personally in the 2nd group -- as are most of the people I know. Not too many people using a laptop in a work environment would have a TV on their desk. It's only when they take their laptop home where they'd likely use a TV, but that's not the majority of the time.

Of course people using laptops in a work environment don't need hdmi. But at home, especially using macbooks as multimedia device, having hdmi would be really nice such as surf youtube and share with whole family on a HDTV.
post #42 of 77
I noticed on Apple's website that the 17" Macbook Pro has theNVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 512MB and the 15" has the NVIDIA GeForce 9400M + 9600M GT with 512MB. What's the difference? I use my laptop for my FCP edit and need any boost in performance I can get so I'm wondering should I forego the 17" screen for the more "robust" GFX performance in the 15"?
post #43 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompy View Post

The mini port is less than half the size of the regular port, still not sure why the size reduction is so critical...


Simply because there is no room for the full connector on any of the laptops. It's just way too big for the Macbook Air, and the "empty" space with no connectors on the other notebooks is where the battery and hard drive are. I think more people will prefer the easy access to the hard drive, battery, and RAM this time around more than having a full size DisplayPort.
post #44 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexicao View Post

Of course people using laptops in a work environment don't need hdmi. But at home, especially using macbooks as multimedia device, having hdmi would be really nice such as surf youtube and share with whole family on a HDTV.

Sure, surf youtube (resolution 320x240) and share with whole family on a HDTV (720P, and the hardcore would use 1080P).
post #45 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexicao View Post

Of course people using laptops in a work environment don't need hdmi. But at home, especially using macbooks as multimedia device, having hdmi would be really nice such as surf youtube and share with whole family on a HDTV.

So that's the big question: are more people using laptops for displaying things on a TV screen, or on a computer monitor?

In an ideal world, you'd be able to do both comfortably -- but whether people like it or not, there's a war going on over who will control the next generation of entertainment. And the companies with large stakes in this war are trying to force consumers to choose one side or the other by making it difficult for them to use both computers and TV/cable box technology at the same time.
 
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post #46 of 77
One issue I haven't seen addressed... will the addition of DisplayPort allow (DisplayPort-enabled) Blu Ray DVD players to be connected to the new 24" Cinema Display? The display has speakers (a first for the Cinemas) so it could act as a basic, 1080p HDTV.

And does the move to DisplayPort set up Apple devices to be compatible with Blu Ray's content protection requirements... so maybe Snow Leopard will complete the Blu Ray licensing circle?

I don't know a lot about HDMI/DisplayPort/Blu Ray, but from what I've been reading, it seems like DisplayPort moves Apple closer to Blu Ray integration.
post #47 of 77
For another box on the shelf right next to the other boxes marked "Apple Display Adapters"
post #48 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

So that's the big question: are more people using laptops for displaying things on a TV screen, or on a computer monitor?

Many are using a notebook plugged into an LCD projector to give presentations.
post #49 of 77
The Mini DisplayPort connector is an active proposal within VESA. It is one
of many new features being proposed for DisplayPort 1.2. (I called Bill, a big wig at the displayport.org group)
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post #50 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Apple will release bigger displays when manufacturing comply with its specifications.
By now bigger LED panels are or too expensive or can't deliver the quantities needed for fill orders to other/all Brands (Dell, HP, Viewsonic, Apple, etc)

But hopefully that will change next year

That's a load of crap. Did you just grab that from the same statements made for the past 5 years or what?
post #51 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bokuwaomar View Post

Simply because there is no room for the full connector on any of the laptops. It's just way too big for the Macbook Air, and the "empty" space with no connectors on the other notebooks is where the battery and hard drive are. I think more people will prefer the easy access to the hard drive, battery, and RAM this time around more than having a full size DisplayPort.

Just too big? Sure is when you taper the hell out of the bottom and cram stuff closer because someone later in life has a new found obsession of thinness. This was never an obsession from a certain person back when style was never compromised at NeXT.

It's truly sad.
post #52 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Just too big? Sure is when you taper the hell out of the bottom and cram stuff closer because someone later in life has a new found obsession of thinness. This was never an obsession from a certain person back when style was never compromised at NeXT.

It's truly sad.

Well look around. The entire notebook market is moving to smaller or thinner. Why use a bigger port if a smaller one will do the same job. Apple won't be the only one using the mini ports.

Using the mini port allows the customer to use the same size connectors across all computers.
post #53 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

For another box on the shelf right next to the other boxes marked "Apple Display Adapters"

lol. Tell me about it. I've got storage boxes full of old adapters, cords, and other bygone accessories... gotta clean out those closets.

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post #54 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bokuwaomar View Post

Simply because there is no room for the full connector on any of the laptops. ... I think more people will prefer the easy access to the hard drive, battery, and RAM this time around more than having a full size DisplayPort.

Full size DisplayPort is roughly the same size as USB or HDMI. "Any of the laptops" is an overstatement.

Apple engineers chose between a mini-displayport or "easy access to the hard drive, battery, and RAM?" That's not plausible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well look around. The entire notebook market is moving to smaller or thinner. Why use a bigger port if a smaller one will do the same job. Apple won't be the only one using the mini ports.

Using the mini port allows the customer to use the same size connectors across all computers.

Technically, the mini port does the same job. Practically, it's a trade off. As far as I know, this port is Apple's own. What happens from here on out is pure speculation.

Edit: Just read dstranathan post. I retract my last 2 sentences
post #55 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstranathan View Post

The Mini DisplayPort connector is an active proposal within VESA. It is one
of many new features being proposed for DisplayPort 1.2. (I called Bill, a big wig at the displayport.org group)

Can you provide specific links to confirm this? I for one, am disgusted by Apple's constant obsession with making proprietary display connectors for which only they sell adapters. Sort of like Microsoft's "embrace, extend" policy towards open internet standards.
post #56 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Can you provide specific links to confirm this? I for one, am disgusted by Apple's constant obsession with making proprietary display connectors for which only they sell adapters. Sort of like Microsoft's "embrace, extend" policy towards open internet standards.

No link, but you can email him:

Bill Lempesis: bill at vesa dot org
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post #57 of 77
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post #58 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompy View Post

Full size DisplayPort is roughly the same size as USB or HDMI. "Any of the laptops" is an overstatement.

Apple engineers chose between a mini-displayport or "easy access to the hard drive, battery, and RAM?" That's not plausible.

Sure the full size port could have been there, but only at the expense of something else. Enough people are complaining about the lack of firewire and a third USB port, so replacing one of the existing ports wouldn't have worked. Also, if you look at the internals of the notebook, the only way to create enough room on the sides for more/larger ports is to move the battery, hard drive, and RAM away from the edges of the notebook. Their current position allows for easy access. If they were in the middle again, there would either have to be a bunch of doors on the bottom for easy access (not apple like) or we'd have to remove the bottom like before. The current solution is likely the most elegant and the compromises aren't too bad. The world isn't going to end because Apple notebooks use mini-DisplayPort.
post #59 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bokuwaomar View Post

Sure the full size port could have been there, but only at the expense of something else. Enough people are complaining about the lack of firewire and a third USB port, so replacing one of the existing ports wouldn't have worked. Also, if you look at the internals of the notebook, the only way to create enough room on the sides for more/larger ports is to move the battery, hard drive, and RAM away from the edges of the notebook. Their current position allows for easy access. If they were in the middle again, there would either have to be a bunch of doors on the bottom for easy access (not apple like) or we'd have to remove the bottom like before. The current solution is likely the most elegant and the compromises aren't too bad. The world isn't going to end because Apple notebooks use mini-DisplayPort.

Ease of access doesn't matter. Why should Apple make things easier to access? Who in the world needs to take out a laptop hard drive or battery?

Making the hard drive easier to access would make the case weaker, so Apple would have to make the laptop thicker.

There will be no video iPod. Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod.

Apple will not make cell phones.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.
post #60 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

In the past, NVidia's OS X drivers haven't been that great. The current Mac Pro has a choice of ATI 7600 or Geforce 8800 and the 7600 was faster at CoreImage (LOL), and even after driver improvements came along it was only about equal. So those drivers still have a ways to go.

Not to overestimate what Apple is doing with Nvidia, but in light of Snow Leopard I would be highly surprised if Apple would leave writing the optimized MBP drivers just up to them.

Call me an optimist, but I actually expect solid drivers, including Hybrid SLI.
post #61 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post

Not to overestimate what Apple is doing with Nvidia, but in light of Snow Leopard I would be highly surprised if Apple would leave writing the optimized MBP drivers just up to them.

Call me an optimist, but I actually expect solid drivers, including Hybrid SLI.

No Hybrid SLI. Apple is using only the power-saving features.
post #62 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Can you provide specific links to confirm this? I for one, am disgusted by Apple's constant obsession with making proprietary display connectors for which only they sell adapters. Sort of like Microsoft's "embrace, extend" policy towards open internet standards.

Steve said at the presentation that mini DP is an industry standard.

Apple created mini DVI and micro DVI to fit the thin notebook cases. Their was no other viable alternative. I'm sure Apple wanted VESA to adopt them as standards.
post #63 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Ease of access doesn't matter. Why should Apple make things easier to access? Who in the world needs to take out a laptop hard drive or battery?

Making the hard drive easier to access would make the case weaker, so Apple would have to make the laptop thicker.

There will be no video iPod. Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod.

Apple will not make cell phones.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

A lot of people depend on the ability to take out the battery, usually to replace it with a spare on long trips. It's one of the main complaints about the Macbook Air. People also want an easy way to replace the hard drive. PC users always love to brag about being able to upgrade PC hardware with out pulling out a bunch of screws. Repair shops go crazy when they have to take a computer apart just to replace a failed drive. And probably most importantly, in 2 or 3 years, SSDs are going to be a cheap way to really boost performance, more so than simply adding RAM. An easily replaceable hard drive matters a whole lot, and it's evident from the latest updates that it doesn't make the case weaker and force more thickness. Hopefully the iMac gets its guts shuffled around during the next refresh, and if Apple ever gets around to updating the Mac mini, make it easier to open the damn thing. Using plastic tabs they way they did is just plain ridiculous.

Also, what's with the Apple will nevers? I thought those only worked on nay-sayers?
post #64 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

No Hybrid SLI. Apple is using only the power-saving features.

Screw hybrid SLI, I would rather see the 'real' GPU used for video & the integrated GPU be available, at the same time, for OpenCL number-crunching goodness...
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post #65 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well look around. The entire notebook market is moving to smaller or thinner. Why use a bigger port if a smaller one will do the same job. Apple won't be the only one using the mini ports.

First Apple defenders praise Apple for "thinking different", not "following the crowd", and not belonging to the "herd". Now you defend Apple for doing exactly what you praised them for not doing. So basically, Apple can do no wrong no matter what. Is that it?
post #66 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bokuwaomar View Post

A lot of people depend on the ability to take out the battery, usually to replace it with a spare on long trips. It's one of the main complaints about the Macbook Air. People also want an easy way to replace the hard drive. PC users always love to brag about being able to upgrade PC hardware with out pulling out a bunch of screws. Repair shops go crazy when they have to take a computer apart just to replace a failed drive. And probably most importantly, in 2 or 3 years, SSDs are going to be a cheap way to really boost performance, more so than simply adding RAM. An easily replaceable hard drive matters a whole lot, and it's evident from the latest updates that it doesn't make the case weaker and force more thickness. Hopefully the iMac gets its guts shuffled around during the next refresh, and if Apple ever gets around to updating the Mac mini, make it easier to open the damn thing. Using plastic tabs they way they did is just plain ridiculous.

Also, what's with the Apple will nevers? I thought those only worked on nay-sayers?

By "nay-sayers", do you mean those Apple zealots who kept arguing against ease of access in Macs? The same people who dismiss ease of access just because they don't to have take things apart? The same people who argued that making Mac laptops easier to access would require "more internal bracing" which would require thicker laptops? How many times have people asked for easier to access Mac laptops? How many times have professional technicians and IT staff complained about Apple making it almost impossible to support their users, only to be dismissed by those Mac zealots? Where are those zealots now? Shouldn't they be complaining to Apple for making the new MacBook Pro easier to access? Despite those zealots arguing that ease of access means weaker and thicker cases, Apple says the new MacBook Pro is stiffer and thinner. So where are the zealots now? Did Apple just make them look like a bunch of idiots?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make cell phones.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.
post #67 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

First Apple defenders praise Apple for "thinking different", not "following the crowd", and not belonging to the "herd". Now you defend Apple for doing exactly what you praised them for not doing. So basically, Apple can do no wrong no matter what. Is that it?

I would say here needs to be a healthy balance between the two.

Sometimes its better for Apple to go its own way. That differentiates it from other computer manufacturers and allows them to sell their products. OS X as a proprietary operating system and working with chip manufacturers such as Intel and Nvidia to develop chips Apple needs to improve Mac performance is a good example of this.

Their are times when Apple joins with everyone in using open standards or industry approved standards that benefit the computer industry as a whole. Unix, webkit, AJAX, h.264, and AAC are good examples of that.
post #68 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmoose View Post

So that people can't use normal third party DisplayPort to HDMI/DVI adapters, and Apple can make money selling their own.

Hoping to see third party Mini DisplayPort to HDMI cables very soon!

They can make one for the other end of the cable with the standard size port connector. No biggie.
post #69 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

lol. Tell me about it. I've got storage boxes full of old adapters, cords, and other bygone accessories... gotta clean out those closets.

Need a big box of SCSI cables?
post #70 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

First Apple defenders praise Apple for "thinking different", not "following the crowd", and not belonging to the "herd". Now you defend Apple for doing exactly what you praised them for not doing. So basically, Apple can do no wrong no matter what. Is that it?

What's the purpose of your argument? The point?
post #71 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

By "nay-sayers", do you mean those Apple zealots who kept arguing against ease of access in Macs? The same people who dismiss ease of access just because they don't to have take things apart? The same people who argued that making Mac laptops easier to access would require "more internal bracing" which would require thicker laptops? How many times have people asked for easier to access Mac laptops? How many times have professional technicians and IT staff complained about Apple making it almost impossible to support their users, only to be dismissed by those Mac zealots? Where are those zealots now? Shouldn't they be complaining to Apple for making the new MacBook Pro easier to access? Despite those zealots arguing that ease of access means weaker and thicker cases, Apple says the new MacBook Pro is stiffer and thinner. So where are the zealots now? Did Apple just make them look like a bunch of idiots?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make cell phones.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Why does this matter to you so much?
post #72 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Many are using a notebook plugged into an LCD projector to give presentations.

An LCD projector which is predominantly used for computer-based presentations is equivalent to a computer monitor in the context of the original discussion (i.e. what type of video output connector should Apple laptops have?).
 
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post #73 of 77
Something I still haven't worked out: with DisplayPort and an appropriate connector, will I be able to hook a new MB/P into an HDMI TV and get sound through it? It's a significant annoyance with the old mini-DVI that I can't.
post #74 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilburnkarl View Post

Something I still haven't worked out: with DisplayPort and an appropriate connector, will I be able to hook a new MB/P into an HDMI TV and get sound through it? It's a significant annoyance with the old mini-DVI that I can't.

Yes.

Another win DisplayPort has over DVI is that it carries audio.

The new 24" display has built-in speakers and the audio is routed over the DisplayPort cable.

Something else I haven't seen mentioned is that DisplayPort has the potential to allow daisy-chained monitors.

So the MacBook loses one daisy-chainable interface, FireWire, and gains another that has the potential to be daisy-chained in the future. I'm not sure if support for that would be entirely up to software, though.

I'd now REALLY like to see a Mac Mini with a DisplayPort connector and finally the ability to support more than one monitor. I'll settle for a Mac Mini with two display connectors (maybe DVI-I *and* DisplayPort) that can be used at the same time, though.
post #75 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lun_Esex View Post

Yes.

Another win DisplayPort has over DVI is that it carries audio.

The new 24" display has built-in speakers and the audio is routed over the DisplayPort cable.

Something else I haven't seen mentioned is that DisplayPort has the potential to allow daisy-chained monitors.

So the MacBook loses one daisy-chainable interface, FireWire, and gains another that has the potential to be daisy-chained in the future. I'm not sure if support for that would be entirely up to software, though.

I'd now REALLY like to see a Mac Mini with a DisplayPort connector and finally the ability to support more than one monitor. I'll settle for a Mac Mini with two display connectors (maybe DVI-I *and* DisplayPort) that can be used at the same time, though.

In theory it can be daisy chained, but Apple has not released a mini display port to display port adaptor.
post #76 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

In theory it can be daisy chained, but Apple has not released a mini display port to display port adaptor.

At the moment there are so few devices with DisplayPort that there's little reason for an adaptor between it and Mini DisplayPort.

Considering that Apple's new 24" display uses a Mini DisplayPort connector, I'd expect Apple to standardize on that size connector across its entire product line, including pro displays and Mac Pros. I wouldn't be surprised to see the video cards on the Mac Pros get one full size DisplayPort connector and one Mini DisplayPort connector, though. At that point they'd release a DisplayPort to Mini DisplayPort adpater so you could hook up two Apple displays that used Mini DisplayPort.

If full size DisplayPort connectors get common enough Apple will surely release Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort cables. If Mini DisplayPort becomes officially part of the 2.1 spec and many other manufacturers decide to adopt it then Apple may leave it up to third parties to make Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort cables, much like Apple doesn't make DVI to HDMI cables themselves.

Personally I don't see the size/type of connector being used as that big of a deal. It's a lot like how DVI has multiple variations even in its full-size connectors, and how Apple's MacBooks and iMacs (and previously iBooks and the 12" PowerBook) have used Mini DVI.

At this point Apple can finally standardize across their whole line with a single display connector, rather than a mixed bag that wasn't even aligned along consumer/pro lines (the Mac Mini has full-size DVI; the original MacBook Air had Micro DVI).
post #77 of 77
Where I work, we use LCD monitors in some rooms instead of projectors. Especially the smaller conference rooms or those with very, very high ceilings.

They work great for presentations with small groups. Right now, nearly every laptop we connect is done with VGA. Only a handful we connect with DVI and those are Mac laptops, though most of them are connected VGA as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Many are using a notebook plugged into an LCD projector to give presentations.
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