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Third Debate Blow by Blow - Page 2

post #41 of 191
Its all over but the shouting. The only thing up in the air now is the number of seats in the house and senate the Democrats get - will they be filibuster proof?

It will probably be like Clinton, where the Republicans bounced back a bit after two years - I just hope that the Democrats have their shit together and make the most of that two years.
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post #42 of 191
more about joe:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-spotlight/?hp
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #43 of 191
Typically a business that generates $250K/year will cost between one and two million (from bizbuysell.com). If Joe can afford to pay cash for that business, then the extra tax is no big deal. If he is taking out a loan, then the interest on that loan is tax deductible and he won't be paying extra tax.
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post #44 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Typically a business that generates $250K/year will cost between one and two million (from bizbuysell.com). If Joe can afford to pay cash for that business, then the extra tax is no big deal. If he is taking out a loan, then the interest on that loan is tax deductible and he won't be paying extra tax.

Yeah... it's clear that he either was lying, or his income would be a lot lower than $250K...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #45 of 191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Typically a business that generates $250K/year will cost between one and two million (from bizbuysell.com). If Joe can afford to pay cash for that business, then the extra tax is no big deal. If he is taking out a loan, then the interest on that loan is tax deductible and he won't be paying extra tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Yeah... it's clear that he either was lying, or his income would be a lot lower than $250K...

Please tell me you're both kidding. Not a big deal? Lying?

<considers moving to Canada, eh>
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #46 of 191
Thread Starter 
It is interesting to see how the media, even Fox, says Obama won because he remained collected and didn't make any gaffes. I on the other hand thought this was McCain's best debate. He looked like the McCain we used to know. He had a great line about running against Bush.

It's almost as if the media really played up the "McCain needs a knockout blow" line. When he didn't get one (even if his performance was strong), that was it in their minds. Even Charles Krauthammer (whom I can't stand) said that given the political environment, Ronald Reagan himself couldn't have won.

At this point it seems Obama is going to win. I'm not happy about it, but that's where we are. I just hope if he is able to implement his agenda that it isn't as Left as it would seem.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #47 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

more about joe:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-spotlight/?hp

In a single day Joe the Plumber has done more interviews than Sarah Palin has this entire campaign.
post #48 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I on the other hand thought this was McCain's best debate.



Really though, I thought the same without the split screen view, but I've changed my mind now. It's amazing the difference that made. McCain was a pompous, old, wrinkled ass.

I said before though that I hope he stays on as Senator, Obama will need to have him on his side and very much against some of his policies, that's what he is good at.
post #49 of 191
I agree. Yes, it was McCain's best debate... he wasn't good at the first two... but also his worst. He came out stronger in this one, but lost it, as per his personality. He has a history of getting angry and it came out in the debate. He demonstrated vividly that he is not presidential material. The attacks probably pleased his base, but they don't really seem to care about the bigger issues on the times. They like and have demanded dirty. Sadly, he has played down to their level recently, rather than trying to lift them up. Slowly but surely, the conservative movement is sinking itself. Even Buckley jumped ship!

A slideshow of McCanin's different faces during the debate:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_135255.html

The last tongue-out joking around bit was disturbing, at best. Would he do something similar when meeting a foreign head of state? As the rolling Stone article suggested, he has never really grown up; he can't control his temper and thus could not be trusted with the codes to nukes.

Hopefully, he has not already led the sheep too far away form Obma so that when Obama becomes resident they will ruin the country while trying to get even or whatever with Obama because of McCain's weaknesses.

I was saddened again for the country watching McCain's performance tonight; he needed to show true leadership that would improve the country. Instead, he continued down the same road of uncontrolled anger that is currently ripping the country apart and setting up a difficult and uncertain future.

That people care so little about the country as a whole is deeply saddening.

I also agree that the debates shouldn't be compared to boxing matches. The guy who gets the other wins the WH! No. The one who presents a better platform, argues it well and maintains a manner befitting the office should win. There should be no need for "gloves coming off" or other school-yard antics; it is detrimental to the country and also humiliating on the world stage.

Many people were impressed by Palin's acceptance speech. It was horrible, but well-delivered. Since then, she has been horrible when unscripted. So, the one performance didn't cut it. The debates are slightly different (unless you are Palin and declare you aren't actually participating). This third debate style was the best as it didn't allow that many prepped speeches; this is where Mccain got tripped up.

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #50 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It is interesting to see how the media, even Fox, says Obama won because he remained collected and didn't make any gaffes. I on the other hand thought this was McCain's best debate. He looked like the McCain we used to know. He had a great line about running against Bush.

It's almost as if the media really played up the "McCain needs a knockout blow" line. When he didn't get one (even if his performance was strong), that was it in their minds. Even Charles Krauthammer (whom I can't stand) said that given the political environment, Ronald Reagan himself couldn't have won.

At this point it seems Obama is going to win. I'm not happy about it, but that's where we are. I just hope if he is able to implement his agenda that it isn't as Left as it would seem.

Except this is exactly backwards. "The media" was eager to award the debate to McCain, and it's the polls (as in, voters) that gave Obama the edge.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #51 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

In a single day Joe the Plumber has done more interviews than Sarah Palin has this entire campaign.

Given the right's abrupt obsession with another (apparently poorly vetted) symbol of "regular Americans", I'm assuming their candidate for president on 2012 will be selected by random lottery from an emblematically small town. At which point things like "having a rap sheet", "never finishing high school" and "being under a restraining order" will come to be considered badges of authenticity.

Liberal elites, with their pussyfied lack of jail time and non-existent history of violent outbursts! Real Americans have drinking problems and poor impulse control and a 5th grade educations!
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #52 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It is interesting to see how the media, even Fox, says Obama won because he remained collected and didn't make any gaffes. I on the other hand thought this was McCain's best debate. He looked like the McCain we used to know. He had a great line about running against Bush.

I thought it was his best debate too. He definitely had the best line of the night.
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post #53 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Given the right's abrupt obsession with another (apparently poorly vetted) symbol of "regular Americans", I'm assuming their candidate for president on 2012 will be selected by random lottery from an emblematically small town. At which point things like "having a rap sheet", "never finishing high school" and "being under a restraining order" will come to be considered badges of authenticity.

Liberal elites, with there pussyfied lack of jail time and non-existent history of violent outbursts! Real Americans have drinking problems and poor impulse control and a 5th grade educations!

I love you sometimes, Adda. I really do!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #54 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Given the right's abrupt obsession with another (apparently poorly vetted) symbol of "regular Americans"

Poorly vetted, indeed.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #55 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Poorly vetted, indeed.

Very Jeff Gannon-ish. Plant?
post #56 of 191
So Joe the Plumber isn't a plumber, strictly speaking, doesn't have a real plan to buy the business, beyond some vague talk, owes back taxes, and isn't an independent or undecided.

And the McCain campaign may have destroyed the business by making it common knowledge that they aren't aren't licensed, even though the county they're doing business in requires it-- and even though Joe isn't aware of that.

I dunno, maybe all of that somehow plays to the base? Are county licensing requirements fascist? Are building codes part of the nanny state?

I bet in Sarah Palin's Alaska you can do rocket surgery with homemade certificate; maybe he can move there after somebody in Ohio sues his ass.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #57 of 191
post #58 of 191
Fuck. Democrats are so stingy over any criticism they have to swift boat Joe the Plumber.
post #59 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Fuck. Democrats are so stingy over any criticism they have to swift boat Joe the Plumber.

If McCain hadn't used him as an example during the debate, none of this would have mattered.

McCain could have simply said that Obama called for spreading the wealth around and left it at that. Instead he used Joe's financial situation to critique Obama's plan and so Joe's financials suddenly become profoundly interesting. Only made more interesting now that it is known that not only would he get a tax cut under Obama's plan, he probably would get insurance as well.
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post #60 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Fuck. Democrats are so stingy over any criticism they have to swift boat Joe the Plumber.

I often wonder whether the drive to say just any old thing to piss off the libruls is stronger than the knowledge that conservatives should apologize for destroying America, STFU, and hang their heads in shame.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #61 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Can someone clarify something to me, did McCain actually say that he talked to Joe the Plumber too?

Sometimes a plumber is needed to unclog pipes, not just give his political opinions.

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post #62 of 191
Some more about " Joe The Plumber ".

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...itn_joeplumber

It seems that Joe doesn't even have a license.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #63 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Poorly vetted, indeed.

Why in the world would anyone find the need to "vet" a random questioner? Who cares what his personal issues are, his basic question was a valid one.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #64 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Sometimes a plumber is needed to unclog pipes, not just give his political opinions.

I don't like McCains ideas for the internet either, he doesn't have any. Well censorship is one.

No, I really thought I heard McCain say, "Well, that isn't what Joe said to me!"
post #65 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Why in the world would anyone find the need to "vet" a random questioner? Who cares what his personal issues are, his basic question was a valid one.

You'd think that if the McCain campaign were going to pounce on a guy who harangued Obama, mention his name 20-some times in the debate, they'd have checked into the guy.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #66 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Why in the world would anyone find the need to "vet" a random questioner? Who cares what his personal issues are, his basic question was a valid one.

Which one?

The question of whether someone will be taxed more for making $250K (which Obama has said so, repeatedly)?

The question of whether Obama supports a flat tax?

The question of whether Obama believes in the American Dream?

Or perhaps you are referring to a question he didn't ask: how does the marginal tax system work?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #67 of 191
No matter the questioner Obama committed the perfect gaffe. That being when a politician says something they shouldn't but is also exactly their true feelings. The purpose of the tax increase on people making $250K is to take their money and give it to people that make a lot less. "Share the wealth."
post #68 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

No matter the questioner Obama committed the perfect gaffe. That being when a politician says something they shouldn't but is also exactly their true feelings. The purpose of the tax increase on people making $250K is to take their money and give it to people that make a lot less. "Share the wealth."

Changing the relative burdens of taxation is not giving money to other people regardless of your political ideology.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #69 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Fuck. Democrats are so stingy over any criticism they have to swift boat Joe the Plumber.

Joe the Faux Plumber swiftboated himself with a lot of help from that Pumpkinhead McCain.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #70 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

No matter the questioner Obama committed the perfect gaffe. That being when a politician says something they shouldn't but is also exactly their true feelings. The purpose of the tax increase on people making $250K is to take their money and give it to people that make a lot less. "Share the wealth."

Exactly, and the sooner we steal all their money the better.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #71 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Changing the relative burdens of taxation is not giving money to other people regardless of your political ideology.

Uh no. "Tax rebate" means that your tax can go negative and you get more money back than you may have paid. 30% of filers don't pay any taxes and many get money back anyway.
post #72 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Uh no. "Tax rebate" means that your tax can go negative and you get more money back than you may have paid. 30% of filers don't pay any taxes and many get money back anyway.

So that's a bad thing? And was it a bad thing when earned income tax credits and child tax credits were conservative Republican ideas, meant to be a better alternative to government programs? Or only when Obama proposes to expand them a small amount relative to what the conservative Republicans have proposed and enacted over the years?
post #73 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

So that's a bad thing? And was it a bad thing when earned income tax credits and child tax credits were conservative Republican ideas, meant to be a better alternative to government programs? Or only when Obama proposes to expand them a small amount relative to what the conservative Republicans have proposed and enacted over the years?

Yea I don't know. Selling it as a tax cut is bullshit.


For members that still don't understand how Obama's tax "cut" for 95% of "tax payers" will work read here.

Obama's 95% Illusion


Quote:
...
- A $500 tax credit ($1,000 a couple) to "make work pay" that phases out at income of $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 per couple.

- A $4,000 tax credit for college tuition.

- A 10% mortgage interest tax credit (on top of the existing mortgage interest deduction and other housing subsidies).

- A "savings" tax credit of 50% up to $1,000.

- An expansion of the earned-income tax credit that would allow single workers to receive as much as $555 a year, up from $175 now, and give these workers up to $1,110 if they are paying child support.

- A child care credit of 50% up to $6,000 of expenses a year.

- A "clean car" tax credit of up to $7,000 on the purchase of certain vehicles.

Here's the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be "refundable," which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer -- a federal check -- from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this "welfare," or in George McGovern's 1972 campaign a "Demogrant." Mr. Obama's genius is to call it a tax cut.

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.

...
post #74 of 191
Just because it's a credit doesn't mean it's an illusion. They're still going to get that money. And people are still going to be paying plenty of other taxes.
post #75 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea I don't know. Selling it as a tax cut is bullshit.


For members that still don't understand how Obama's tax "cut" for 95% of "tax payers" will work read here.

Obama's 95% Illusion

The WSJ, the AEI, and The Heritage Foundation are a bunch of lying cocksuckers, sucking McCain's cock 247.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #76 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The WSJ, the AEI, and The Heritage Foundation are a bunch of lying cocksuckers, sucking McCain's cock 247.

Maybe Obama can give Joe the Plumber a reach around after the tax increase?
post #77 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by floorjack View Post

maybe obama can give joe the liar a reach around after the tax increase?

tftfu
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #78 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Fuck. Democrats are so stingy over any criticism they have to swift boat Joe the Plumber.

Nope. Before he went on fox to talk shit and before McCain dropped his name throughout the debate, the video was circulating around the internet (and praised by Obama supporters) as an example of the kind of respectful, adult policitian/citizen policy debate so sorely missing from the infantile republican party:

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/com...uestion_obama/
post #79 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Nope. Before he went on fox to talk shit and before McCain dropped his name throughout the debate, the video was circulating around the internet (and praised by Obama supporters) as an example of the kind of respectful, adult policitian/citizen policy debate so sorely missing from the infantile republican party:

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/com...uestion_obama/

Yup because that was before it was used against Obama. Then it's swift boat the plumber.
post #80 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yup because that was before it was used against Obama. Then it's swift boat the plumber.

Is there something about swiftboating you object to, scott?
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