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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 26

post #1001 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Of course it matters when performance is monitored. Musicians run firewire because even a %7 hit means you cannot run as many tracks or power is gone for some effects.

For burst data that doesn't require realtime or guaranteed delivery USB is fine but I find it absurd that people have "chosen" USB. With Intel creating USB and shoveling it into every computer there never really was a choice.

Performance is irrelevent. I've said this earlier. When we had slow busses, slow cpu's, and one core, it mattered a great deal.

Now, none of that matters. Even the lowliest computer flies when compared to those old machines.

As time goes on, it will matter even less, if that's even needed.

Before too long, perhaps another year, we will be using four core cpu's in laptops as well.

Cpu utilization is just not an issue. Stop trying to make it one.
post #1002 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Or at least you hope they aren't selling well. I doubt many are looking at their first two weeks of sales as their long term trend.

Apple should certainly hope the first two weeks are phenomenal for MacBook sales. In their analyst conference call they indicated they thought portable sales had slowed prior to the 14th, due to expectations of upgrades. Lots of people were waiting.

But Amazon always offers rebates. I wouldn't read anything into that. MacConnection offers rebates too.
post #1003 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

You hit the nail on the head, right there. This is exactly why there's no Firewire on the new MacBook.

The loss is even greater if a user decides to go with a competitor instead. This penny wise pound foolish way of thinking has never served Apple well.
post #1004 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

FW is 12 volts. Where did you get the 30 volts from?

yeah the macbook pro has 12V @ 1.5A which Apple somehow limit to 14W
but the standard seems to allow an increase on that
check here
post #1005 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Cpu utilization is just not an issue. Stop trying to make it one.

CPU utilisation so IS an issue - heat !!!!!!

(although if it was only a 7% increase i'd agree - but it's locking people into host controller config then there's no way to add to an existing machine by buying external processors for audio / vid apps)

oh i keep forgetting - audio / vid means i should go buy a pro \
post #1006 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Extremely well said.

Something else interesting... the new MacBooks are available at Amazon, and are ALREADY selling with a $50 rebate, even though they're brand-new.

Is this SOP at Amazon for Macs? Or, is it possible that the new MBs aren't selling quite as well as Apple had hoped?

Get siggy with it.

...

Amazon ALWAYS gives a $50 rebate, or more.
post #1007 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yeah the macbook pro has 12V @ 1.5A which Apple somehow limit to 14W
but the standard seems to allow an increase on that
check here

Those are not normal computer ports. They link several power lines together. I don't know of any computer that allows that. I also don't know of any audio or video equipment that allows that either, other that a couple of industrial models.
post #1008 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

CPU utilisation so IS an issue - heat !!!!!!

(although if it was only a 7% increase i'd agree - but it's locking people into host controller config then there's no way to add to an existing machine by buying external processors for audio / vid apps)

oh i keep forgetting - audio / vid means i should go buy a pro \

No it's not. 7% of 200% is still almost nothing - 3.5%. 200% being both cores.

And exactly what uses do you have that host/controller would prevent?
post #1009 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No it's not. 7% of 200% is still almost nothing - 3.5%. 200% being both cores.

And exactly what uses do you have that host/controller would prevent?

the one i'm using at the moment is the Focusrite Liquid Mix

this is a godsend for macbook / mac mini / even macbook pro use
because it add processing power for plug ins that would otherwise
completely overload my cpu

and that's on a simple mix (2 guitar, 1-2 vox, bass, 6x drum tracks) where you have at least one plug in per track... so you can see why host controlled is impossible for larger orchestra mixes etc and will definietly cause an increase in CPU power req't and thus heat...

my mac pro eats it up and asks for more (love the 8 cores)

it's an application i can see being useful for video effects too
although i don't know too much about that area (yet)

given that this small external box costs around $500, runs off bus power and prevents you having to upgrade to either a macbook pro or mac pro - it's totally worth it

oh yeah - that's right, apple wants me to buy a pro \
post #1010 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Those are not normal computer ports. They link several power lines together. I don't know of any computer that allows that. I also don't know of any audio or video equipment that allows that either, other that a couple of industrial models.

gotta disagree with you there Mel
even the old G5 has 25V

but yes the notebooks are limited to 12V for power consumption reasons.
post #1011 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Or at least you hope they aren't selling well. I doubt many are looking at their first two weeks of sales as their long term trend.


Oh, don't be snippy Teno. Too early for that. *smoooooooooch*

Read my sig.

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post #1012 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

the one i'm using at the moment is the Focusrite Liquid Mix

this is a godsend for macbook / mac mini / even macbook pro use
because it add processing power for plug ins that would otherwise
completely overload my cpu

and that's on a simple mix (2 guitar, 1-2 vox, bass, 6x drum tracks) where you have at least one plug in per track... so you can see why host controlled is impossible for larger orchestra mixes etc and will definietly cause an increase in CPU power req't and thus heat...

my mac pro eats it up and asks for more (love the 8 cores)

it's an application i can see being useful for video effects too
although i don't know too much about that area (yet)

given that this small external box costs around $500, runs off bus power and prevents you having to upgrade to either a macbook pro or mac pro - it's totally worth it

oh yeah - that's right, apple wants me to buy a pro \

I've seen the unit, and just went to their site. I don't see anything special about this that would REQUIRE FW. USB 2 might be a bit slow, but it's not a technical burden in the sense of competing technologies. Similar devices dowork over USB 2.

But as I've said earlier, I do think Apple dropped FW too early. This maker, and others, will convert their products to USB 3 once it's out, and when the handwriting on the wall now, is rewritten in bold, capital letters.
post #1013 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

I can't think of a thing the iPhone doesn't have. Then again, you don't create stuff on a handheld device.


Bigger battery for longer batt life, more room for a better camera.

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post #1014 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

gotta disagree with you there Mel
even the old G5 has 25V

but yes the notebooks are limited to 12V for power consumption reasons.

There's a good reason why Apple abandoned that years ago.
post #1015 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Amazon ALWAYS gives a $50 rebate, or more.


From Day One, every time, every Mac?

I dunno, Mel. Maybe.

Sigiocity.

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post #1016 of 1657
If no one's seen this article yet, I advise it, it gives a good idea of the direction Apple is taking the MacBook.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/...4&pageNumber=1
post #1017 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There's a good reason why Apple abandoned that years ago.

how about giving it
post #1018 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But as I've said earlier, I do think Apple dropped FW too early.


*Ed McMahon voice*: You are CORRECT sir!!

How ya been?

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post #1019 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

From Day One, every time, every Mac?

I dunno, Mel. Maybe.

Sigiocity.

...

I've never seen them not offer it.
post #1020 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've never seen them not offer it.


You go there every single time a new Mac shows up on Amazon? And there's ALWAYS a rebate on ALL Macs, from the moment they're offered to the moment they're yanked?

Sorry Mel. If that's what you're saying, I know from experience that it isn't true.


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post #1021 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

how about giving it

It lead to FW bus failure, and there was nothing much to use it with.
post #1022 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

*Ed McMahon voice*: You are CORRECT sir!!

How ya been?

...

Busy. Just finished almost two months working in my daughters school on a big show they do this time of the year. Almost couldn't get to the computer at all the past few days.
post #1023 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've seen the unit, and just went to their site. I don't see anything special about this that would REQUIRE FW. USB 2 might be a bit slow, but it's not a technical burden in the sense of competing technologies. Similar devices dowork over USB 2.

But as I've said earlier, I do think Apple dropped FW too early. This maker, and others, will convert their products to USB 3 once it's out, and when the handwriting on the wall now, is rewritten in bold, capital letters.

Pls an example of a similar unit... on anything other than FW

I believe the makers (if they do migrate) will only do so if they are forced.

Remember they were free to choose USB2 at the time
and yet they chose FW - despite poor market penetration
which everyone is at pains to point out.

Can you tell me why?
post #1024 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

You go there every single time a new Mac shows up on Amazon?

...

I see the prices at some sites I go to every day, such as:

http://www.macintouch.com/

They link to amazon, as they get a bit every time you go there. The info is updated every day. Scroll down the page.
post #1025 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

Pls an example of a similar unit... on anything other than FW

I believe the makers (if they do migrate) will only do so if they are forced.

Remember they were free to choose USB2 at the time
and yet they chose FW - despite poor market penetration
which everyone is at pains to point out.

Can you tell me why?

I'll look a bit later for specific models.

Why?

Several reasons.

One is that after Atari collapsed (they were, by far, the biggest music computer aroundwithout FW, or USB 2), the industry moved to Apple. The OS mostly, and this was also before either FW or USB 2. Mostly SCSI implementations then.

The reason why FW? Well, first there was no USB 2, just FW. What choice did they have other than SCSI, and everyone was moving away from that, as was Apple (Oh yeah! People were mad about that too!)

Once USB 2 came out, most devices that were FW either remained FW,or began to sport both. Many other audio devices were released as USB 2 only.
post #1026 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I see the prices at some sites I go to every day, such as:

http://www.macintouch.com/

They link to amazon, as they get a bit every time you go there. The info is updated every day. Scroll down the page.


I dunno Mel. I got my current Mac off of Amazon, which is the way to go (no sales tax). Don't recall Amazon 'ALWAYS' offering rebates on all Macs... it's more like they come and go. Current MacBook rebate just started today, but the new MBs have been available on Amazon for a week or two.

Got a rebee on my current comp, though. Won't buy the next without one either.

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post #1027 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I dunno Mel. I got my current Mac off of Amazon, which is the way to go (no sales tax). Don't recall Amazon 'ALWAYS' offering rebates on all Macs... it's more like they come and go. Current MacBook rebate just started today, but the new MBs have been available on Amazon for a week or two.

Got a rebee on my current comp, though. Won't buy the next without one either.

...

I saw the rebate last week.
post #1028 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'll look a bit later for specific models.

Why?

Several reasons.

One is that after Atari collapsed (they were, by far, the biggest music computer aroundwithout FW, or USB 2), the industry moved to Apple. The OS mostly, and this was also before either FW or USB 2. Mostly SCSI implementations then.

The reason why FW? Well, first there was no USB 2, just FW. What choice did they have other than SCSI, and everyone was moving away from that, as was Apple (Oh yeah! People were mad about that too!)

Once USB 2 came out, most devices that were FW either remained FW,or began to sport both. Many other audio devices were released as USB 2 only.

to my knowledge there aren't many (good) audio devices
which connect via USB2
there are a few - and admittedly due to the rise of the bedroom youtube rock star
the lower end ones are becoming more common - if you look at the forums they're pretty nasty though... i wouldn't buy one unless it was only for 2 tracks.

oh that's right i should buy an MBP \

i know this has all been said but this is straight from apple's developer site

Quote:
USB 2.0 works in a master/slave arrangement that adds significant overhead to data transfers. FireWire is a true peer-to-peer technology, so two or more FireWire peripherals can communicate with each other directly as peers, sending each piece of data over the bus only once, directly to its destination.

FireWire is also designed to provide useful amounts of power, allowing the user to powerand even charge the battery ofmany FireWire peripherals from the computer. While USB 2.0 allows at most 2.5 W of power, enough for a simple device like a mouse, FireWire devices can provide or consume up to 45 W of power, enough to run high-performance disk drives and to rapidly charge batteries. This feature is especially beneficial to users of portable computers, as it can eliminate the need for multiple power adapters.

bolds are mine

the other advantage of FW is the ability to create agregate devices for adding tracks
no way to do that with USB (2 or 3)
so multiple machines means lots of complications and latency problems.
and try getting a combined headphone signal !?!
post #1029 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I saw the rebate last week.

Odd. Maybe on a different model than I was looking at?

From Amazon.com:

www.rebateshq.com/amazon-rebates
Please allow 8-10 weeks for processing
$50 Rebate

Promo ID: 08-48445
Valid Purchase Dates: 10/28/2008 to 11/17/2008
Last Submission Date: 12/17/2008

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/image...242395677_.pdf
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post #1030 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

to my knowledge there aren't many (good) audio devices
which connect via USB2
there are a few - and admittedly due to the rise of the bedroom youtube rock star
the lower end ones are becoming more common - if you look at the forums they're pretty nasty though... i wouldn't buy one unless it was only for 2 tracks.

oh that's right i should buy an MBP \

The MBP statement is getting just a bit tiring, you know?

If you want the truth, I'll tell you. If you have a real business, your accountant would tell you to buy your equipment as capital expenses. Then you would depreciate it. Over that time period, you would find the difference in price between a MacBook and a MBP to be very little.

Quote:
i know this has all been said but this is straight from apple's developer site



bolds are mine

the other advantage of FW is the ability to create agregate devices for adding tracks
no way to do that with USB (2 or 3)
so multiple machines means lots of complications and latency problems.
and try getting a combined headphone signal !?!

I'm quite aware of what they say. but you should understand that what they say isn't always as accurate for actual use as the specs make it seem. Where is that 45 watt port? Even for most FW devices you must still plug into power. Using the battery drains your laptop too quickly.

The overhead is BS these days, and Apple knows it.

They will encourage professional FW use on their pro machines, because few PC's have it built-in. Sometimes even pros balk at buying a card, because they need the slots for other, more important equipment.
post #1031 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Odd. Maybe on a different model than I was looking at?

From Amazon.com:

www.rebateshq.com/amazon-rebates
Please allow 8-10 weeks for processing
$50 Rebate

Promo ID: 08-48445
Valid Purchase Dates: 10/28/2008 to 11/17/2008
Last Submission Date: 12/17/2008

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/image...242395677_.pdf

The way they usually do it is to have the rebates last for a certain period. When that period is up, they start a new one. That allows them to vary their offerings.
post #1032 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The way they usually do it is to have the rebates last for a certain period. When that period is up, they start a new one. That allows them to vary their offerings.

I think I see the prob. From the MacInTouch site you use, and sent me to:

Meanwhile, Amazon is discounting FireWire MacBooks - get 'em while you can! Last week's MacBook Pro models are on sale, too, priced from $1444, only as long as supplies last... Or get one of Apple's latest laptops with a $5 Amazon discount:

aluminum MacBook
new MacBook Pro
new MacBook Air


I think you may have confused the "$5 discount" with the $50 rebate. The latter started just today on the new 'luminum MacBooks.

Or, one or both of us is on some heavy drugs they should've shared with the other.

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post #1033 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I think I see the prob. From the MacInTouch site you use, and sent me to:

Meanwhile, Amazon is discounting FireWire MacBooks - get 'em while you can! Last week's MacBook Pro models are on sale, too, priced from $1444, only as long as supplies last... Or get one of Apple's latest laptops with a $5 Amazon discount:

aluminum MacBook
new MacBook Pro
new MacBook Air


I think you may have confused the "$5 discount" with the $50 rebate. The latter started just today on the new 'luminum MacBooks.

Or, one or both of us is on some heavy drugs they should've shared with the other.

...

My days on drugs are long over. What I need is sleep!
post #1034 of 1657
Macconnection has offered a $75 rebate on the new $1299 MacBook and $100 on the $1599 model for at least a week. And I'm not on drugs either.
post #1035 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The MBP statement is getting just a bit tiring, you know?

yeah got it...
that's kinda my point - i'm sick of hearing it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If you want the truth, I'll tell you. If you have a real business, your accountant would tell you to buy your equipment as capital expenses. Then you would depreciate it. Over that time period, you would find the difference in price between a MacBook and a MBP to be very little.

just because i can depreciate it doesn't mean i want to purchase a MBP
i'm one of those who wants the smaller, lighter but one that works

i would have though that the fact that i have a 2008 mac pro at home would say that upgrading is not really the issue - but it's precisely that - having an (overpowered) mac pro at home means i don't have the need for an MBP.

however even a 'real business' has to get the money from somewhere
especially now that credit is a little hard to come by.

anyway i get what your saying and it's one point of view among many...

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm quite aware of what they say. but you should understand that what they say isn't always as accurate for actual use as the specs make it seem. Where is that 45 watt port? Even for most FW devices you must still plug into power. Using the battery drains your laptop too quickly.

The overhead is BS these days, and Apple knows it.

They will encourage professional FW use on their pro machines, because few PC's have it built-in. Sometimes even pros balk at buying a card, because they need the slots for other, more important equipment.

ok whatever we're going circles - i'm not sure of your attitude to Apple
but i kinda note that a lot of people on these boards say Apple is always right
(ie their decision to remove FW must be right - hey this is APPLE we're talking about)
until it suits their argument to point out that Apple must be wrong...
post #1036 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

Macconnection has offered a $75 rebate on the new $1299 MacBook and $100 on the $1599 model for at least a week. And I'm not on drugs either.


I don't think you are, since MacCon has little to do with whether or not Amazon was offering a rebate.

However, you have my permission to start being on drugs if you so choose. I'm pretty libertarian that way.


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post #1037 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My days on drugs are long over. What I need is sleep!


I feel for ya. I'm the worst insomniac, even on my 'comfiest bed ever' (TempurPedic).

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post #1038 of 1657
Hey, HERE'S an important question (to me, at least) that I want to throw out to everybody:

I need/want a new notebook ASAP... my old iBook G4 has served valiantly, but needs to be put out to pasture.

There's a RIDICULOUSLY good deal at Amazon right now on the previous gen MacBook Pro... with rebate, I can get it for $1444. Kind of a steal. And as I've stated before, Steve isn't getting me to lay out two grand just to get a 15" screen, not now, not ever.

Its competition for my $$$: The new $1299 MetalBook ($1244 at Amazon), which isn't exactly wowing me, what with the evisceration of FireWire n' all. But I do like the somewhat-better gaming performance, at least.

Can anyone give me a good reason, other than the $200 price diff, why I'd go with the new MetalBook instead of the old 15" MB Pro? Is there anything about the previous gen 15" MB Pro that ppl really don't like? Has it run particularly hot for anyone?(I hate that).

Inquiring minds wish to know.


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post #1039 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Hey, HERE'S an important question (to me, at least) that I want to throw out to everybody:

I need/want a new notebook ASAP... my old iBook G4 has served valiantly, but needs to be put out to pasture.

There's a RIDICULOUSLY good deal at Amazon right now on the previous gen MacBook Pro... with rebate, I can get it for $1444. Kind of a steal. And as I've stated before, Steve isn't getting me to lay out two grand just to get a 15" screen, not now, not ever.

Its competition for my $$$: The new $1299 MetalBook ($1244 at Amazon), which isn't exactly wowing me, what with the evisceration of FireWire n' all. But I do like the somewhat-better gaming performance, at least.

Can anyone give me a good reason, other than the $200 price diff, why I'd go with the new MetalBook instead of the old 15" MB Pro? Is there anything about the previous gen 15" MB Pro that ppl really don't like? Has it run particularly hot for anyone?(I hate that).

Inquiring minds wish to know.


...

Well, it looks like you really try to take the most out of your investment since your powerbook served you for quite a while.
If you don't mind the firewire lack and the extra expense of a video adapter you should go close eyes with the new one. I think you intend it to last at least 3 years and by that Snow Leopard must be the primary OS. The new MacBook not only looks like new generation and will support better Snow Leopard, its video card is powerful enough to drive anything from games to work. The bus and memory are way faster than the MBP at amazon and is sturdy as it. Also, that one wont give you a better gaming experience.
The new MBP will deliver a lot of performance for a petite price considering what Apple was offering months ago.
post #1040 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

There's a RIDICULOUSLY good deal at Amazon right now on the previous gen MacBook Pro... with rebate, I can get it for $1444. Kind of a steal. And as I've stated before, Steve isn't getting me to lay out two grand just to get a 15" screen, not now, not ever.

...

Can anyone give me a good reason, other than the $200 price diff, why I'd go with the new MetalBook instead of the old 15" MB Pro? Is there anything about the previous gen 15" MB Pro that ppl really don't like? Has it run particularly hot for anyone?(I hate that).

The new MB (and MBP) will run cooler but the previous gen MBP is much better than my 1 gen MBP heat wise. If you want a 15" screen get the MBP...$1444 is a great price for a MBP. Size wise the MB and MBP aren't THAT different to haul around. You also get expresscard which will likely be more useful in the long run than FW given how long you keep your machines.

That said, that there's even a decision to make speaks volumes. The performance delta is now very small. A little bit of GPU performance and a couple ports.
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